The Stalker is Teshin and here's why - A theory with many a possible spoiler. Read at your own risk.

[Drufo]

Your theory doesn't convince me at all. I'll wait The War Within to see where things are going

[BornWithTeeth]

8 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

 

several people have seen what i've presented, and it's made sense to them. I've edited and updated the OP several times to incorporate information that is present within the thread itself, but not addressed in the OP. meaning that if it's been talked about in depth here in the thread, and isn't on the OP, it goes on the OP at the bottom.

some people understand, some people don't/ that's bound to happen. my issue spawns from the mentality of "i don't see the connection so you're wrong" which is the mentally weak operate. 

I don't get it so you're wrong - don't work in the real world.

I don't get it, can you please help me understand what your viewpoint on this is in it's entirety? - works in the real world.

I don't understand, nor agree so you're wrong - does not work in the real world.

I don't understand, nor agree, so i'll do some research and form my own thoughts to compare - how science is done.

Right.

 

So, does that mean that if I can produce a solid argument, rooted and cited in the lore fragments, for there being military Grineer produced before the Fall, that you will accept that as a valid way of looking at the timeline?

[NeithanDiniem]

2 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Right.

 

So, does that mean that if I can produce a solid argument, rooted and cited in the lore fragments, for there being military Grineer produced before the Fall, that you will accept that as a valid way of looking at the timeline?

Except if you look at my comments, I proved that your theory is not concrete. There is nothing that says that the Grineer were militarized before the fall.

[BornWithTeeth]

1 minute ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Except if you look at my comments, I proved that your theory is not concrete. There is nothing that says that the Grineer were militarized before the fall.

Alright then.

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Synthesis

 

I want to look at the following Imprints:

Corrupted Ancient.

Arid Eviscerator.

Guardsman.

 

 

Corrupted Ancient tells us a couple of things.
First off, it links the Infestation outbreak chronologically with the slaughter at the Terminus. Dax Menz in this Imprint responds to a mention of the Tenno by calling them 'betrayers'. So this Imprint most likely takes place after the Terminus. The main problem for the people in this Imprint is a massive Infestation outbreak.

 

Right, so we have no way of knowing exactly how the Corrupted Ancient Imprint relates chronologically with the Arid Eviscerator Imprint, but they share a few themes and features: The control and command systems are in lockdown, the Infestation is in full force. The Council of Executors has been destroyed. They're both clearly taking place in the period after the Terminus, while people are scrabbling to try and retain some control and stability.

The people we see doing this, sort of, in a very callous way, are Bilsa and Avantus, a surviving Executor. Bilsa sees some Grineer and identifies them as soldiers. Avantus corrects her and says that they are only workers, useless. That's reference 1. These Grineer rebel and take Bilsa captive.

 

That leads directly to the Guardsman Imprint.
This Imprint is explicitly chronologically linked with Arid Eviscerator, taking place an unspecified amount of time later. However, it has to be at least a couple of weeks or so, long enough for Bilsa to have helped the Grineer raid other ships and gather together a bunch more Grineer. The Imprint features Bilsa talking to another Orokin. The key phrases here tell us that the Grineer leader has a name and is noticeably more intelligent, capable of forethought, planning, and deceit. She tells this to the other Orokin, saying that it might be a mutation which slipped through, and he responds by saying:  "Impossible. Something like that would've been caught during production and destroyed, only the military Grineer are given-"

Now, we don't find out what it is that is given to the military Grineer but not the workers.....but right there in black and white we have our second reference, reference number 2, to the Orokin recognising that there are soldier Grineer and worker Grineer, and that there are real differences between them. 

 

So, that gets us two separate references, from two separate Orokin on two separate habitats who didn't know each other, to there being such a thing as 'military Grineer'. Reference number 2 tells us that there is a coherent, recognised process, that military Grineer are apparently more intelligent. This is where my only piece of speculation comes into effect:
These Imprints are taking place in the chaotic aftermath of the Terminus slaughter. (Fact.)
After the Terminus slaughter, all of the big infrastructure went into lockdown and the Orokin middle castes were struggling to survive. (Fact.)
Two separate Orokin who were of different classes, on different habitats, who most likely didn't know each other, make those references which tell us that military Grineer are different from worker Grineer, and that there is something different in their production. (Fact.)
I conclude from this that these military Grineer and the processes required to make them were implemented before the Terminus slaughter, because otherwise, there was no time for them to be developed after it. (My own conclusion.)

 

So. Do you think that this is a completely illogical way of looking at it?

 

[Evers]

18 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

although you have a valid point, i'm hopeful that a dawning of realization will happen with the person and they may do research into providing counter evidence to my theory. such has been my hope since posting this thread. alas, none have yet to do so.

There are quiet a few post in here that provided counter evidence to your theory or pointed out major flaws that made ur whole theory fall apart. You just choose to ignore those and not give any attention to these post since they show that your theory is flawd and highly unlikly.

I understand it, its your theory and you really want it to be true and you put alot of effort into writing it all down. Still doesn't change the fact though that is has some logic flaws, some things that are unlikly, some things that you put together and presented as evidence and facts which actually are just things you want to be evidence and facts but in reality don't confirm anything or just simply aren't evidence or facts or just aren't proven to be true and you just present them to be true because it suits your theory, and so on.

All of this and alot more things have been pointed out to you but again you just choose to ignore it since it disproves your theory. Again i get it but then don't say that noone who says your theory is wrong didn't do any research or presented counter evidence. Because that is just a lie.

[ObviousLee]

5 minutes ago, Evers said:

There are quiet a few post in here that provided counter evidence to your theory or pointed out major flaws that made ur whole theory fall apart. You just choose to ignore those and not give any attention to these post since they show that your theory is flawd and highly unlikly.

I understand it, its your theory and you really want it to be true and you put alot of effort into writing it all down. Still doesn't change the fact though that is has some logic flaws, some things that are unlikly, some things that you put together and presented as evidence and facts which actually are just things you want to be evidence and facts but in reality don't confirm anything or just simply aren't evidence or facts or just aren't proven to be true and you just present them to be true because it suits your theory, and so on.

All of this and alot more things have been pointed out to you but again you just choose to ignore it since it disproves your theory. Again i get it but then don't say that noone who says your theory is wrong didn't do any research or presented counter evidence. Because that is just a lie.

can you possibly link them or tell me which page they are on so i may look them over address them in my op? i'm literally talking acros 4 mediums at any given time in response to this thread.

[ObviousLee]

12 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

snip

 

illogical? absolutely not. those are legitimate direct references to a commonly understood difference in functions of grineer, ranging from workers, to very obviously military use grineer. i wholeheartedly agree, and retract my previous statement regarding militarized grineer being a thing at the time of the war. 

thank you for pointing out what i'd missed in your statement.

Edited July 31, 2016 by ObviousLee

[Evers]

2 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

can you possibly link them or tell me which page they are on so i may look them over address them in my op? i'm literally talking acros 4 mediums at any given time in response to this thread.

Sorry i just read a bit now and then, don't remember what page or who wrote it. But i can tell you what concerns i have with your theroy.

1. Teshin is no Tenno and only Tennos can operate Warframes. So Teshin would be unable to operate a Stalker Frame.

2. the Stalker having his Reservoir in the Homebase of the Grineer seems very very unlikly. 

3. the more plausible reason why there is a Orokin looking Room in the Queens homebase is because the Queens themself are Orokin or Orokin experiments (i don't remember what they are exactly but they are of orikin Origin).

4. Why would Teshin IF he is the Stalker and has his own Reservoir in the Queens homebase show himself to the Tenno in his actual Body instead of showing up as the Stalker

5. IF Teshin is the Stalker why would he still attack the Warframes when he could easily attack the Operator/Tenno when they are on a Mission. Teshin would be able to locate the Tenno Ships and he knows about the Missions, or he could attack them once they are near the Relay and use the Relay to his advantage.

 

The more logical explanation for this short scene in TWW Teaser would be that Teshin is either spying for the Queens (unlikley), a Doubleagent working for the Lotus watching the Queens (unlikely), or and that is for me the most likely one, Teshin was doing some covert lone wolf operation in the Queens Homebase and the Warframe tripped the Alarms and this is why Teshin is drawing his Swords and saying that the Operator ruined them both.

Its most likely just a well cut Trailer that is supposed to make you wonder about Teshin and if he is evil but in the End he won't be.

That are just a few Points im wondering about that don't even get into details about stuff you posted or point out flaws in your Theory.

 

Now to what other People have posted, im afraid you will have to look for it yourself. im not going to read 10 Pages again, you should have read the Posts that prove flaws in your Theory or give you counter evidence instead of Ignoring them and then saying that noone did anything like that. I mean maybe you just overlooked them but that seems highly unlikely.

 

 

[arch111]

Guys,  you DO realize that yet again, a thread about something completely different has turned into the 3 year old debate of the Timeline and events in the games history?

Not that I'm not interested,  I have started numerous like this one myself, as well as ideas about Teshin and the Stalker.

If we must talk details, then let's establish that the Orokin were desperate for rescources in the war, and went farther into space. The Grineer miner was allmost killed by a sentient who recognized the workers as clones. Thst it was a sentient should be clear both by its way of talking, and the light in its center just like the ones we fight. 

The Grineers dna was taken to use to make stronger soldiers, that they knew was a BAD IDEA but did anyway. They were desperate.

When the Betrayers killed the 7(presumably), chaos broke loose. The Orokin Council tried to gather to regain control, but the Grineer uprising happened. 

However Excecutor Avantus tells us both Infestation,  Corrupted, Dax and Grineer Soldiers existed at the Collapse.

Remember allso that after the Betrayal,  Tenno were still active against the Infestation and possibly the Grineer as well.

The Healer Synthesis proves that as well as Orokin, Dax and robots were still part of a society. 

And finally, in the interest of a timeline,  since the Tenno had not gone into hiding yet and the Infestation and Grineer were both active, the future Stalker was around for quite a while after the Betrayal. 

The Kuria tells us that the twins and their people fought and resisted the Grineer hordes for years. In the end they became Queens after the Grineer had come to worship them.

Where this last stand took place is still unknown to us.

But consider this. If Teshin was a part of it, and Teshin being the Stalker was a Guardian,  would it not be in conflict with his own tale?

He left seeking redemption, but why not stay then with the Queens?  Ah yes, the Queens hated the Tenno above all else. Ordered them dead on sight, set watch on their Towers. 

Because they knew their secret. They knew the Sleepers would be a danger to them if they woke.

Therefore I think you are on to something, but not Stalker=Teshin because something will draw us to that place in the trailer. It's clearly a trap, and Teshin seems to want to prevent us going there.

Stalkers motives after Second Dream is very unclear. He still acts as a policeman, I thought previously because of the trauma he suffered from the Betrayal. Now I no longer know, except he seems content killing the warframes and not the Tenno.

Teshin seems very clear: steer the Tenno into the warriors they once were so that when the outer Terminus is open, we will be ready.

Too bad he chose PvP that all Tenno hate to prepare us :p

[NativeKiller]

I get the feeling that this would have been an amazing read.

 

But really, TL;D(have time to)R, have to go to work...

[NeithanDiniem]

2 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

<snip>

 

The problem is there is no way to prove that the Lancer imprint does in fact comes before the fall. The event in the entry is just as likely to be after the fall as it is before. The next batch could just be a new design they are working on, and the mistrust of the Grineer could be because of the revolt that occurred after the terminus incident. There is no solid evidence that puts that entry before the fall, and thus is is still valid that this could be referring to the stalker.

Whether or not Stalker is Teshin however is nowhere even close to being concrete.

Edited August 1, 2016 by NeithanDiniem

[HAYABU5A]

so the stalker, tenshin and sentients are the good guys & the orokin are the bad guys 

it all makes sense now

 

[BornWithTeeth]

2 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

The problem is there is no way to prove that the Lancer imprint does in fact comes before the fall. The event in the entry is just as likely to be after the fall as it is before. The next batch could just be a new design they are working on, and the mistrust of the Grineer could be because of the revolt that occurred after the terminus incident. There is no solid evidence that puts that entry before the fall, and thus is is still valid that this could be referring to the stalker.

Whether or not Stalker is Teshin however is nowhere even close to being concrete.

Well, there is actually kind of an issue with that: It only makes sense to suppose that the Lancer Imprint takes place after the Grineer rebellion if that Grineer rebellion failed. That is what you are suggesting, yes? That there was a revolt, it ultimately failed, the orokin resumed making Grineer afterwards, and that that's why those scientists are so leery of having Grineer soldiers?

 

That presents us with a major problem:

 We know there was a major Grineer revolt which succeeded and put them in control of the inner system. That's how we have the Grineer Empire. (Moa Synthesis). Now, there's nothing there to prove that the rebellion we see happening in the Imprints is the rebellion. After all, that revolt could have been put down by a resurgent Orokin Empire....but that just shoves the problem forward another generation. In other words, if the successful rebellion wasn't this one, then we know it must have been the next one, or the one after that. It happened.

 

Which begs the question of why they would keep making Grineer? Why, in the aftermath of the Empire being decapitated and then nearly toppled by a Grineer revolt, would you continue making Grineer? Why would have harvest the strongest and most militarily capable ones and make more soldier Grineer, if what you're afraid of is another Grineer rebellion?

 

The Imprints make most sense if you read them as telling us that the Grineer were militarised before the Fall.

[PookieNumnums]

if i want to be fair and objective i need to actually fight for both sides. so, im thinking that, perhaps IF the stalker is teshin:

@ObviousLee

that teshin/stalker is also excalibur prime, the original tenno to receive training through the dream tech to master combat and their newfound ability. He basically hit MR30 First.

Then, after a few years of training in the pods, the first to be pulled out of slumber and allowed to walk amongst the orokin (as a warframe) is tasked with readying the remaining children from the zariman ten zero for the final push against the sentient force.  

so he trains us in the dream. then when we are ready they put us into the 'other' dream. where we are no longer in the world margulis (long since passed) created for us, but a new one. a world wrought with pain and suffering. where both sides trade lives in hope for a future, any future at all.  Teshin's role was never to fight. Only to train us.  He was never permitted to leave his golden dojo.

Everything is going as planned. The sentients had infiltrated the Orokin under the guise of helpful lotus knowledgeable of the sentient weaknesses. Hunhow has sacrificed himself to allow the tenno their victory ceremony with the orokin. Natah, freedom, and revenge (for margulis)(their families?)(themselves) (and no doubt perhaps that little corrupted itch we cant scratch) whispering in our ears "Do It.." and we did. 

when the soldiers return victorious from war and put an end to their slavery mid celebration, teshin the lowly gruntly excalibur p, our teacher/sensei, our big brother, was shown that we could be the very monster they feared we were, from his seating at the ceremony. 

This must have caused an amazing destabilization within the orokin empire and everyone in any form of position and rank was now in a free for all, fighting for control of this or that and this or that both include the warframes and the tenno. We were now an enemy of the empire, even worse now than the sentients having 'defeated' them and then betrayed them.

At this point, neither teshin or tenno are aware of their true nature: mentally scarred tweenies in shiny metal dumplings! ( that felt very tyl regory ). .

So the next step is for lotus to obliterate the tenno which she cannot do. she has some form of love for them. she has some form of pity. maybe even a bit of empathy. these had to be somewhat spontaneous thoughts only occurring after hunhow made his sacrifice to give the orokin the idea they had won. without his influence she was able to think for herself. so, she has an idea.. knowing the truth about the tenno and their reservoir which is /was at some point in danger because of her knowledge, decided she had to protect the tenno and get them out of their vulnerable state perhaps to flee... so she takes excalibur prime (pre op teshin) who was likely stationed on the moon where the reservoir was being our trainer, and reveals to him the truth. you are not excal prime. you are little boy teshin. woopy! now lets go! only.. teshin cant handle the fact that he failed the orokin, couldnt protect them by making the tenno loyal enough, wise enough, compassionate enough.. to avoid the massacre which he likely never predicted.  

at this point perhaps the lotus offers him the solution of hiding.. 

 

'i know ill hide you all where they cant follow, the void!' and 

disgusted with failure, sickened with lies, and blind with anger decides to take his frame on his own and leave.

 

SO  over the next few thousand years the voice in his head the reservoir was built to protect us from eats away at him driving him deeper into madness. and at somepoint takes over ala the dark side and bam his frame becomes from excal p to stalkerino .. maybe he ripped the gold out

 

 

Edited August 1, 2016 by PookieNumnums

[ObviousLee]

2 minutes ago, Evers said:

Sorry i just read a bit now and then, don't remember what page or who wrote it. But i can tell you what concerns i have with your theroy.

1. Teshin is no Tenno and only Tennos can operate Warframes. So Teshin would be unable to operate a Stalker Frame.

2. the Stalker having his Reservoir in the Homebase of the Grineer seems very very unlikly. 

3. the more plausible reason why there is a Orokin looking Room in the Queens homebase is because the Queens themself are Orokin or Orokin experiments (i don't remember what they are exactly but they are of orikin Origin).

4. Why would Teshin IF he is the Stalker and has his own Reservoir in the Queens homebase show himself to the Tenno in his actual Body instead of showing up as the Stalker

5. IF Teshin is the Stalker why would he still attack the Warframes when he could easily attack the Operator/Tenno when they are on a Mission. Teshin would be able to locate the Tenno Ships and he knows about the Missions, or he could attack them once they are near the Relay and use the Relay to his advantage.

 

The more logical explanation for this short scene in TWW Teaser would be that Teshin is either spying for the Queens (unlikley), a Doubleagent working for the Lotus watching the Queens (unlikely), or and that is for me the most likely one, Teshin was doing some covert lone wolf operation in the Queens Homebase and the Warframe tripped the Alarms and this is why Teshin is drawing his Swords and saying that the Operator ruined them both.

Its most likely just a well cut Trailer that is supposed to make you wonder about Teshin and if he is evil but in the End he won't be.

That are just a few Points im wondering about that don't even get into details about stuff you posted or point out flaws in your Theory.

 

Now to what other People have posted, im afraid you will have to look for it yourself. im not going to read 10 Pages again, you should have read the Posts that prove flaws in your Theory or give you counter evidence instead of Ignoring them and then saying that noone did anything like that. I mean maybe you just overlooked them but that seems highly unlikely.

 

 

before i respond, thank you for the effort in digging this up. really appreciate it <3 

now then. as of presently, it's theorized that teshin is a dax. it's also in all honesty semi-likely as we've yet to encounter a dax soldier and we know there were a lot of them, so i will admit it's possible that he's a dax.

1. now, to that, i recall tyl calling him a pseudo tenno. whether this is mockery or disdain for a person who is not only like what he hates, but he isn't even a fully fledged version of it, is up for debate. i left this piece out specifically for just how ambiguous of a label it is, considering the source. but i'm thinking that it may be a small piece to the puzzle as a whole. I'm thinking that maybe it should be taken literally because if you immediately disregard it as an insult, instead of thinking of it as a small clue regarding the greater whole of that particular mystery, then you're depriving yourself an avenue of approach that could lead to the actual result. Example being ignoring the trinity prime bomb in the corrupted ancient synthesis where the lorist detects another healer, but no, i've felt this before, it couldn't be! and in a flash, everything is dead. only things capable at the time of doing so lore-wise would be trinity prime and iirc she was the next prime release.

2. Considering the reverence both the stalker as a guardian had before the fall and teshin presently has, if we're going along with them being one being who still revere the orokin, dislike the lotus and the lotus dislikes in return, it's somewhat of a safe guess that IF these are true, then a guardian would be located near orokin royalty to defend them when needed. Now, both the rooms shown in the trailers are very much orokin tech. in that, they are identical. but that is where the similarities end.

observe: Trailer 1 

now, before tubbs n chunk step in the way, ignore the speach and observe the interior. note the floor carves deep, making the throne the highest point in the room, floorwise.

Trailer 2. 

pause when the scene opens up into the room. take your time to really take in what you're seeing: a flat floor, with a pool identical to the one on lua, ominous red sigils and a black smokey interior that is reminiscent of the stalker. and teshin. who is referred to as a pseudo tenno.

add finally to this, is why after how long(seriously how long, i don't have time to google) have the Acolytes been gone, only to reappear a mere week before the release of the war within. considering everything, honest thoughts on the liklihood of it all being a coincidence?

[BornWithTeeth]

36 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

illogical? absolutely not. those are legitimate direct references to a commonly understood difference in functions of grineer, ranging from workers, to very obviously military use grineer. i wholeheartedly agree, and retract my previous statement regarding militarized grineer being a thing at the time of the war. 

thank you for pointing out what i'd missed in your statement.

Cool. But.....

40 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

can you possibly link them or tell me which page they are on so i may look them over address them in my op? i'm literally talking acros 4 mediums at any given time in response to this thread.

 

1. The whole thing about Guardians being lesser Void powered soldiers, with broader but much weaker powers? It has very little in the way of actual evidence for it. It's more a fan theory based on a scrap of information. The term 'Guardian' is not used anywhere else in Warframe to denote a rank, title, or class. That section of your post is based on about five words from the Stalker Codex, and on Stalker's game mechanics, his powers. That is the sum total of the real, direct evidence which you have for the assertion that 'Guardians' were, as an entire class, functionally a weaker kind of Tenno/Warframe.
            You also argue that a form of proof for this idea is that Stalker mostly attacks weaker Warframes. That's not actually how Stalker works, it's basically an urban legend based on confirmation bias among players. Players can more easily fight him off when they have their fully ranked 'frames, and are more likely to die when they get attacked while leveling weak equipment. Thus, players remember themselves getting beaten by the Stalker more often while they're using lower equipment. Players share these anecdotes and decide that Stalker must therefore prioritise attacking weak targets. Regardless of whether you choose to believe this, a solid fact is that since 18.5, Stalker will not attack a Warframe lower than rank 10.

2. Insisting that Stalker's game mechanics must be treated as lore clues damages the coherency of your theory in one specific way:  Shadow Stalker is worse at fighting Tenno than old Stalker. He really is. He gained Sentient-style damage resistance at the cost of literally everything else which ever made him dangerous. Once you know how to move and how to kite him, you can be confident of beating him far, far more often than he will ever beat you. That means that if Stalker went to Hunhow looking for a way to get better at fighting Tenno, then Hunhow screwed him over big time, in an almost hilariously terrible fashion. The thing is, I don't think that is a truly helpful way of looking at it either, though, because....

 

3. A big part of your entire theory rests on part 1 and part 2, that Stalker is a Guardian who is weaker than Tenno and can't fight them head on, so he went to Hunhow to use Sentient technology to become stronger. Like I said, I have solid reasons for thinking that parts 1 and 2 are not true, and I don't agree with part 3 either.
                See, you describe the Stalker going to Hunhow because he can't defeat Warframes. Stalker walks into the meeting literally holding a Loki Warframe's head and presents it to Hunhow. You say that this is proof that Stalker is weak, because a Loki Warframe is easier prey when its abilities are turned off, i.e. Stalker went for an easier target. The thing is, that's a remarkably different statement from your initial point, that Stalker mostly attacks low level 'frames. At some point, your argument switches from 'Stalker attacks low-leveled 'frames because he's weak' (which is not actually a game mechanic, it's just a player urban legend, and is especially not true since 18.5) to 'Stalker attacks squishy caster 'frames because he's weak', which is also not a game mechanic.
          In either case, the issue of whether or not Stalker can kill Warframes is not what actually gets discussed at that meeting, at all. What actually gets discussed is how to find and kill the Operators. Hunhow makes it clear that Stalker can kill all the Warframes he wants (and again, Stalker literally walked in holding a Warframe's head) but that killing Warframes won't kill Tenno. That's all.
              Hunhow doesn't give the Stalker the War sword because Stalker sucks at fighting Warframes, Hunhow gives him the sword because he's made the sword as an avatar for himself, to be carried by the Stalker into the mission.

 

4. The entire point of Second Dream was not “The Stalker sucks at fighting Tenno, so he has sought out dangerous upgrades from Hunhow.” The point of Second Dream was that it doesn't matter how many Warframes Stalker kills, he'll never get to the Tenno through them, so he has to get Hunhow's help to go around them and attack the Reservoir directly.
         That plot makes perfect sense. What does not make perfect sense is what happens at the Reservoir, which is what I was referring to. (I didn't mean the scene aboard the Orbiter. I meant the initial moment of awakening at the Reservoir itself.) The Operator is vulnerable, only just coming back to full consciousness, the Stalker is standing about a dozen feet away, with War unsheathed. It would have taken about a second for Stalker to just swing the bloody thing and kill the Operator. Instead, the Stalker sheathes War, and does that gesture. 
          What gesture? He stares at his hands, turning them over, moving his fingers. The Operator is doing this at the same time, each of them apparently quite suddenly aware of where they are and what they are doing. Where else is this from? It's from the Rhino Prime Codex, the very first recorded instance of a Tenno assuming somatic control of a warbeast. It's the symbol for “Transference is taking effect”. The Stalker goes into a Transference fugue at the sight of the Operator. That right there? Like I said, it's that moment which is the single most crucial clue to who the hell the Stalker is, even if we don't know where exactly it points yet. The whole point of that scene was to reveal the true nature of the Operator, and as a sort of sub-point, begin laying the groundwork for 'The Stalker is more like you than he wants to realise.'
 
 That whole bit just completely stops making sense if you assume that the Stalker is Teshin and that he really did come there to use his fancy upgrades to kill the Operator. Teshin has no reason to go into a Transference fugue unless a part of your theory is that Teshin is unconsciously tele-operating the Stalker, and that his conscious mind doesn't know it. Is that a part of your theory?

 

 

Basically, for your theory to make sense, we have to assume that if Teshin is the Stalker, then the part of Teshin which is doing it is not a highly intelligent, capable psychopath, but more a semi-conscious and irrational dark fragment, trapped in Transference. Your theory makes less sense if you say "Teshin is a long term mastermind and is the Stalker!" and makes more sense if you say "Teshin is a damaged man with deep drives towards violence and revenge, and the Stalker is his nightmare."

[arch111]

That's a nice thing you wrote. Bravo! Now if only there wasn't an actual grown man walking around,  I would love it to be true.

Before DE retconned Tenno into 10-0 (why? Why?!) I would have placed Hayden in that Stalker suit.

 

[NeithanDiniem]

2 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Well, there is actually kind of an issue with that: It only makes sense to suppose that the Lancer Imprint takes place after the Grineer rebellion if that Grineer rebellion failed. That is what you are suggesting, yes? That there was a revolt, it ultimately failed, the orokin resumed making Grineer afterwards, and that that's why those scientists are so leery of having Grineer soldiers?

 

That presents us with a major problem:

 We know there was a major Grineer revolt which succeeded and put them in control of the inner system. That's how we have the Grineer Empire. (Moa Synthesis). Now, there's nothing there to prove that the rebellion we see happening in the Imprints is the rebellion. After all, that revolt could have been put down by a resurgent Orokin Empire....but that just shoves the problem forward another generation. In other words, if the successful rebellion wasn't this one, then we know it must have been the next one, or the one after that. It happened.

 

Which begs the question of why they would keep making Grineer? Why, in the aftermath of the Empire being decapitated and then nearly toppled by a Grineer revolt, would you continue making Grineer? Why would have harvest the strongest and most militarily capable ones and make more soldier Grineer, if what you're afraid of is another Grineer rebellion?

 

The Imprints make most sense if you read them as telling us that the Grineer were militarised before the Fall.

Actually no, that is not what I was saying at all. At the time of the revolt the Grineer did not have queens to serve. No one took command of them from what we know so far, they just fought back against their masters. Why then would they trust an Orokin to command them?

You did however show that it is most likely true that the Grineer were militarized pre-fall. But it does not prove when the Lancer incident happened. I myself do say that the Lancer event would most likely happen pre-fall, and that the entity there is not the stalker, but I have no definitive proof and thus it is only a theory of opinion.

My statement is to show that the Lancer entry isn't possible to nail down to pre-fall. It is not known for certain if it is an event that happened early on in the militarization campaign for the Grineer, because someone had to not only help control the Grineer but take over them as their queens. The Queens would have to also work on new batches of Grineer soldiers and workers, create what would become their subjects because those individuals would be unable to do so on their own. If the Grineer could make more of their own before the fall, without the Orokin controlling it and maintaining the Grineer as dumbed-down clones, the Grineer would not have remained as they are. They have to keep making Grineer, their genome is degrading and they are sterile, unable to reproduce naturally. They have to make new clones to reinforce their numbers, something likely to have taken quite a big hit during their fight to rebel. And as we know, the Grineer were designed to a fault to not be that intelligent, so how likely is it that they could take over the cloning process at that time without outside aid? The ones most likely to aid them willingly wouldn't have been individuals held against their will, not by their conversation. It was just someone that lacked trust in the Grineer. Orokin following the commands of an elite, notably the one that became their first Queen, could have been that individual.

The Lancer entry could very well be something that was done by command of the individuals that became the queens, and thus is just as likely to have occurred after the fall. It makes sense by the conversations going on that it was something done by Orokin members that were willingly collecting the body to be used to help make soldiers. That means it can be both pre-fall or post because in both times there would have been Orokin that would have performed those acts willingly. If it can happen after the fall, then the theory that the entity of light in the entry, a light that was never described by color, could have been the stalker. Remember the lights all went out, so any light that is bright enough, no matter the color, could be quite obscuring for anyone looking at it. So there is no definitive answer either way, only theories.

2 hours ago, arch111 said:

That's a nice thing you wrote. Bravo! Now if only there wasn't an actual grown man walking around,  I would love it to be true.

Before DE retconned Tenno into 10-0 (why? Why?!) I would have placed Hayden in that Stalker suit.

 

DE stated that Dark Sector was non canon long before that retcon.

[PookieNumnums]

i will interject that stalker didnt seek out hunhow for for help. it was quite the opposite. hunhow needed a way INTO THE VOID since he cannot go there, and that is where the moon was hidden. stalker taking the weapon carved from his bones imbued with his juices, was the vehicle by which he could enter the void and destroy the true source of the warframes power, the teeno.

 

 

lotus hid the truth from us so we wouldnt go nuts like stalker, which to me implies she told him first and that didnt go so well, meaning lotus knows his identity.. whereabouts are another story.. but if his identity were teshin i think shed do something about it.

@ObviousLee

 

 

Edited August 1, 2016 by PookieNumnums

[arch111]

14 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Actually no, that is not what I was saying at all. At the time of the revolt the Grineer did not have queens to serve. No one took command of them from what we know so far, they just fought back against their masters. Why then would they trust an Orokin to command them?

You did however show that it is most likely true that the Grineer were militarized pre-fall. But it does not prove when the Lancer incident happened. I myself do say that the Lancer event would most likely happen pre-fall, and that the entity there is not the stalker, but I have no definitive proof and thus it is only a theory of opinion.

My statement is to show that the Lancer entry isn't possible to nail down to pre-fall. It is not known for certain if it is an event that happened early on in the militarization campaign for the Grineer, because someone had to not only help control the Grineer but take over them as their queens. The Queens would have to also work on new batches of Grineer soldiers and workers, create what would become their subjects because those individuals would be unable to do so on their own. If the Grineer could make more of their own before the fall, without the Orokin controlling it and maintaining the Grineer as dumbed-down clones, the Grineer would not have remained as they are. They have to keep making Grineer, their genome is degrading and they are sterile, unable to reproduce naturally. They have to make new clones to reinforce their numbers, something likely to have taken quite a big hit during their fight to rebel. And as we know, the Grineer were designed to a fault to not be that intelligent, so how likely is it that they could take over the cloning process at that time without outside aid? The ones most likely to aid them willingly wouldn't have been individuals held against their will, not by their conversation. It was just someone that lacked trust in the Grineer. Orokin following the commands of an elite, notably the one that became their first Queen, could have been that individual.

The Lancer entry could very well be something that was done by command of the individuals that became the queens, and thus is just as likely to have occurred after the fall. It makes sense by the conversations going on that it was something done by Orokin members that were willingly collecting the body to be used to help make soldiers. That means it can be both pre-fall or post because in both times there would have been Orokin that would have performed those acts willingly. If it can happen after the fall, then the theory that the entity of light in the entry, a light that was never described by color, could have been the stalker. Remember the lights all went out, so any light that is bright enough, no matter the color, could be quite obscuring for anyone looking at it. So there is no definitive answer either way, only theories.

DE stated that Dark Sector was non canon long before that retcon.

You can argue that.

And you can argue that DE have reused names and ideas from Dark Sector all along.

Haydens name remains on warframes. The Proto and Nemesis is in the game.

 

[arch111]

Oh and Stalker attacking that grineer miner? Look up New Strange. 

[PookieNumnums]

26 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Cool. But.....

 

1. The whole thing about Guardians being lesser Void powered soldiers, with broader but much weaker powers? It has very little in the way of actual evidence for it. It's more a fan theory based on a scrap of information. The term 'Guardian' is not used anywhere else in Warframe to denote a rank, title, or class. That section of your post is based on about five words from the Stalker Codex, and on Stalker's game mechanics, his powers. That is the sum total of the real, direct evidence which you have for the assertion that 'Guardians' were, as an entire class, functionally a weaker kind of Tenno/Warframe.
            You also argue that a form of proof for this idea is that Stalker mostly attacks weaker Warframes. That's not actually how Stalker works, it's basically an urban legend based on confirmation bias among players. Players can more easily fight him off when they have their fully ranked 'frames, and are more likely to die when they get attacked while leveling weak equipment. Thus, players remember themselves getting beaten by the Stalker more often while they're using lower equipment. Players share these anecdotes and decide that Stalker must therefore prioritise attacking weak targets. Regardless of whether you choose to believe this, a solid fact is that since 18.5, Stalker will not attack a Warframe lower than rank 10.

2. Insisting that Stalker's game mechanics must be treated as lore clues damages the coherency of your theory in one specific way:  Shadow Stalker is worse at fighting Tenno than old Stalker. He really is. He gained Sentient-style damage resistance at the cost of literally everything else which ever made him dangerous. Once you know how to move and how to kite him, you can be confident of beating him far, far more often than he will ever beat you. That means that if Stalker went to Hunhow looking for a way to get better at fighting Tenno, then Hunhow screwed him over big time, in an almost hilariously terrible fashion. The thing is, I don't think that is a truly helpful way of looking at it either, though, because....

 

3. A big part of your entire theory rests on part 1 and part 2, that Stalker is a Guardian who is weaker than Tenno and can't fight them head on, so he went to Hunhow to use Sentient technology to become stronger. Like I said, I have solid reasons for thinking that parts 1 and 2 are not true, and I don't agree with part 3 either.
                See, you describe the Stalker going to Hunhow because he can't defeat Warframes. Stalker walks into the meeting literally holding a Loki Warframe's head and presents it to Hunhow. You say that this is proof that Stalker is weak, because a Loki Warframe is easier prey when its abilities are turned off, i.e. Stalker went for an easier target. The thing is, that's a remarkably different statement from your initial point, that Stalker mostly attacks low level 'frames. At some point, your argument switches from 'Stalker attacks low-leveled 'frames because he's weak' (which is not actually a game mechanic, it's just a player urban legend, and is especially not true since 18.5) to 'Stalker attacks squishy caster 'frames because he's weak', which is also not a game mechanic.
          In either case, the issue of whether or not Stalker can kill Warframes is not what actually gets discussed at that meeting, at all. What actually gets discussed is how to find and kill the Operators. Hunhow makes it clear that Stalker can kill all the Warframes he wants (and again, Stalker literally walked in holding a Warframe's head) but that killing Warframes won't kill Tenno. That's all.
              Hunhow doesn't give the Stalker the War sword because Stalker sucks at fighting Warframes, Hunhow gives him the sword because he's made the sword as an avatar for himself, to be carried by the Stalker into the mission.

 

4. The entire point of Second Dream was not “The Stalker sucks at fighting Tenno, so he has sought out dangerous upgrades from Hunhow.” The point of Second Dream was that it doesn't matter how many Warframes Stalker kills, he'll never get to the Tenno through them, so he has to get Hunhow's help to go around them and attack the Reservoir directly.
         That plot makes perfect sense. What does not make perfect sense is what happens at the Reservoir, which is what I was referring to. (I didn't mean the scene aboard the Orbiter. I meant the initial moment of awakening at the Reservoir itself.) The Operator is vulnerable, only just coming back to full consciousness, the Stalker is standing about a dozen feet away, with War unsheathed. It would have taken about a second for Stalker to just swing the bloody thing and kill the Operator. Instead, the Stalker sheathes War, and does that gesture. 
          What gesture? He stares at his hands, turning them over, moving his fingers. The Operator is doing this at the same time, each of them apparently quite suddenly aware of where they are and what they are doing. Where else is this from? It's from the Rhino Prime Codex, the very first recorded instance of a Tenno assuming somatic control of a warbeast. It's the symbol for “Transference is taking effect”. The Stalker goes into a Transference fugue at the sight of the Operator. That right there? Like I said, it's that moment which is the single most crucial clue to who the hell the Stalker is, even if we don't know where exactly it points yet. The whole point of that scene was to reveal the true nature of the Operator, and as a sort of sub-point, begin laying the groundwork for 'The Stalker is more like you than he wants to realise.'
 
 That whole bit just completely stops making sense if you assume that the Stalker is Teshin and that he really did come there to use his fancy upgrades to kill the Operator. Teshin has no reason to go into a Transference fugue unless a part of your theory is that Teshin is unconsciously tele-operating the Stalker, and that his conscious mind doesn't know it. Is that a part of your theory?

 

 

Basically, for your theory to make sense, we have to assume that if Teshin is the Stalker, then the part of Teshin which is doing it is not a highly intelligent, capable psychopath, but more a semi-conscious and irrational dark fragment, trapped in Transference. Your theory makes less sense if you say "Teshin is a long term mastermind and is the Stalker!" and makes more sense if you say "Teshin is a damaged man with deep drives towards violence and revenge, and the Stalker is his nightmare."

a much more eloquent way of putting what ive been trying to explain myself to him in other avenues.

 

however, that does bring to light the questions of a) does stalker really have an operator and if so b) was our operator taking over him for a bit and if so why is our operator no-chair relay emitting stronger transference than wherever teshin would be in his evil synaptic relay. and c) if stalker doesnt have an operator then what is it controlling it? 

The stalker has been awake a long time while we hid in the reservoir, in sleep, in the void on the mooon... Rhino P describes a frame moving with no operator. Mesa and Chroma are both frames controlled by NOT a tenno in their quests, by what varies. 

This to me implies that perhaps the stalker does NOT have an operator and that he is a corrupted void controlled warframe... controlled by w/e it is that whispers to us from the darkness of our subconscious, the same voices that were driving us mad and inspired margulis to the design of the synaptic relay, however having had an operator at some point the feelings and thoughts of that operator may have been somehow forged and inscribed into the cellular memory of the warframe. 

 

Edited August 1, 2016 by PookieNumnums

[NeithanDiniem]

2 hours ago, arch111 said:

You can argue that.

And you can argue that DE have reused names and ideas from Dark Sector all along.

Haydens name remains on warframes. The Proto and Nemesis is in the game.

 

Easter eggs are nothing more than slight nods to their previous game. That is all they ever have been. "Hayden Tenno" is not going to show up in the game unless he is a completely new character utterly unrelated to the guy in Dark Sector.

[Digidyne017]

On 7/30/2016 at 6:55 AM, ObviousLee said:

 

Again, the nyx is expecting the interior she stumbles into to be grineer tech, and yet what she finds looks identical to a dojo. it's likely  that the twin queens are housed in a Dojo, along with Teshin and the Stalker warframe.

Could it be feasible that, if Tenshin and the Stalker are one as you claim, could Tenshin be capable of operating the Stalker without the use of a chair? There is strong standing proof of that its possible during the Second Dream. The operator was fully capable of doing exactly that moments after leaving the chair from the Reservoir.

It could be that an operator and its frame could function independently from each other, also seen in the second dream during the last fight with the empowered Stalker. This would be a huge advantage that Tenshin/Stalker would have over us, as while he tutors us in lessons of combat efficiency, the Stalker is more than well aware of what exploits there are to expose. Even during the last cut of the War Within trailer, the operator is yet again outside of the warframe. Why would that be? What chain of events would cause the operator to once again become displaced from their Frame, and working to get it back. But also take this into consideration....aside from the obvious -getting-the-frame-back-before-86'd........what could we possibly gain from retrieving it once again? It could be possible that we learn how to act without a frame....given that DE has said that they were going to introduce a new mechanic, i believe it also regards focus. 

Nonetheless, this seems to be more or less one of the few remaining pieces to the puzzle, since you stated that Tenshin did not going into stasis, and the stalker himself is old a crap(JUST like Tenshin), and by this logic, (possibly) BOTH were there at the fall of the Orokin. If this is truly the case, we may see or learn how Tenshin became the stalker, and how he was able to acquire a frame. But I'm also curious by the ending; WILL Tenshin still be our tutor at the end if this is all valid? Or will he be replaced?

[NeithanDiniem]

2 hours ago, Digidyne017 said:

Could it be feasible that, if Tenshin and the Stalker are one as you claim, could Tenshin be capable of operating the Stalker without the use of a chair? There is strong standing proof of that its possible during the Second Dream. The operator was fully capable of doing exactly that moments after leaving the chair from the Reservoir.

It could be that an operator and its frame could function independently from each other, also seen in the second dream during the last fight with the empowered Stalker. This would be a huge advantage that Tenshin/Stalker would have over us, as while he tutors us in lessons of combat efficiency, the Stalker is more than well aware of what exploits there are to expose. Even during the last cut of the War Within trailer, the operator is yet again outside of the warframe. Why would that be? What chain of events would cause the operator to once again become displaced from their Frame, and working to get it back. But also take this into consideration....aside from the obvious -getting-the-frame-back-before-86'd........what could we possibly gain from retrieving it once again? It could be possible that we learn how to act without a frame....given that DE has said that they were going to introduce a new mechanic, i believe it also regards focus. 

Nonetheless, this seems to be more or less one of the few remaining pieces to the puzzle, since you stated that Tenshin did not going into stasis, and the stalker himself is old a crap(JUST like Tenshin), and by this logic, (possibly) BOTH were there at the fall of the Orokin. If this is truly the case, we may see or learn how Tenshin became the stalker, and how he was able to acquire a frame. But I'm also curious by the ending; WILL Tenshin still be our tutor at the end if this is all valid? Or will he be replaced?

Replacing him isn't likely, since this is a quest event it would not make any sense. Hence why I still cannot believe that he is somehow the stalker. There are many other reasons why Teshin would be there.