The Stalker is Teshin and here's why - A theory with many a possible spoiler. Read at your own risk.

[ObviousLee]

9 hours ago, Stonehenge said:

AHah. The hieroglyphs on the parymids didnt say they were built by aliens ? That's true. But they also didnt say that they were not.

the entire point of adding this to the last post as an edit, is to highlight that using a "well it wasn't stated he was in a warframe" as grounds to theorize that something that the game lore itself doesn't support with any associated logic.

[ObviousLee]

7 hours ago, starsrift said:

Hate to go meta, but collapsing the story in this sort of convoluted fashion makes little sense from a structural standpoint. What makes more sense is Teshin having mixed loyalties (perhaps a family that's being leaned on?) and an introduction of a new nemesis.

if you can find something in the lore to suggest or lean towards this, then by all means present it and we'll discuss it.

[Miser_able]

My problem with this is that the room from the war within trailer is grinded and confirmed to be connected to the queens. Those very edgy queena not stalker.

[ObviousLee]

1 minute ago, shadowfire380 said:

My problem with this is that the room from the war within trailer is grinded and confirmed to be connected to the queens. Those very edgy queena not stalker.

there is no confirmation that there is a direct connection to the queens other than observed tenno tech within the rooms themselves. 

If you look at the rooms, they resemble tenno dojo's which are derived from orokin tech. other than the association of architecture, there is no hardlined confirmaiton that they are in directly connected. If anything they may be in the same area as the queens, but again. the stalker has access to a fresh supply of void keys, as revealed within TSD. the only ones who could possibly manufacture keys, are the twin queens as they have the highest ranked genetic material in the system. 

[BornWithTeeth]

 

[(PSN)LeBlingKing]

Might of been brought up already, but I found this looking for info on Stance Mods: Fateful Truth.

Not only is it a stance for nikanas, and not only is it ONLY accessible from the Conclave, when we realize who Teshin really is

 

We will be face to face

 

With the fateful truth

[ObviousLee]

6 hours ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing69 said:

Might of been brought up already, but I found this looking for info on Stance Mods: Fateful Truth.

Not only is it a stance for nikanas, and not only is it ONLY accessible from the Conclave, when we realize who Teshin really is

 

We will be face to face

 

With the fateful truth

incidentally no, nobody has brought this up. Thank you for taking the time to dig up this little gem. Seems like the suggestive evidence just keeps stacking higher and higher though doesn't it.

[(PSN)LeBlingKing]

It does, which makes me surprised that that was never actually brought up. Also, not to mention, the first hit on all combos looks EXACTLY like how Teshin drew his nikana in the trailer.

 

[ObviousLee]

oh snapples. yea you found some really AWESOME supportive evidence. seriously, thank you for the additional information.

[(PSN)LeBlingKing]

No prob.

 

[Prime-Ares]

K time to revive this thread.

You're welcome.

[ObviousLee]

26 minutes ago, Prime-Ares said:

K time to revive this thread.

You're welcome.

Not that I mind but why revive it? 

[(PSN)Silverback73]

29 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

Not that I mind but why revive it? 

A far more interesting theory (to me, at least) is that the Stalker (and his ilk) is a Tenno mind-creation...the result of being subjected to the harsh and damaging effects of endless war as a forced child-soldier, the transference process and void energies.

See Freud's monstrous ID and Jung's Collective Unconscious.

Stalker is weaponized negative emotional energy (Dread, Hate, Despair, anyone?), has immunity to your powers, and can find you anywhere.

See this movie's plot synopsis for Clarity:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_Planet

Perhaps Stalker was born of your guilt from the slaughter of your people at the Ceremony, "Watching from afar" through your mind's eye...

If Teshin knows that Stalker (and the Acolytes-assuming they aren't re-awakened versions of Ordin Karris) is the byproduct of you not having truly mastered yourself, then Teshin has truly been training you for THE WAR WITHIN...YOURSELF.

Perhaps this is why Stalker hesitated to kill you and mirrored your hand gestures...he would have ended himself.

 

And to bring this full circle...once you have mastered and made peace with the darkest parts of who you are and what you have done...Stalker becomes Excaliber Umbra.

 

Edited October 11, 2016 by (PS4)Silverback73

[NeithanDiniem]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

A far more interesting theory (to me, at least) is that the Stalker (and his ilk) is a Tenno mind-creation...the result of being subjected to the harsh and damaging effects of endless war as a forced child-soldier, the transference process and void energies.

See Freud's monstrous ID and Jung's Collective Unconscious.

Stalker is weaponized negative emotional energy (Dread, Hate, Despair, anyone?), has immunity to your powers, and can find you anywhere.

See this movie's plot synopsis for Clarity:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_Planet

Perhaps Stalker was born of your guilt from the slaughter of your people at the Ceremony, "Watching from afar" through your mind's eye...

If Teshin knows that Stalker (and the Acolytes-assuming they aren't re-awakened versions of Ordin Karris) is the byproduct of you not having truly mastered yourself, then Teshin has truly been training you for THE WAR WITHIN...YOURSELF.

Perhaps this is why Stalker hesitated to kill you and mirrored your hand gestures...he would have ended himself.

 

And to bring this full circle...once you have mastered and made peace with the darkest parts of who you are and what you have done...Stalker becomes Excaliber Umbra.

 

1: Where do you even get that the Tenno are capable of creating something with their minds that is a self-aware thing?

2: Why would these things that they created attack them?

3: His theme has to do with his feelings towards the Lie he was lead to believe, so yes emo ninja dude. He is not immune to your powers, he dispels them, like other frames do, and like bosses has a lot of invulnerabilities to cheese-fest abilities. Finding you isn't hard since the Corpus and Grineer do it when they send their hunters after you; they can trace your void signature, and even disable or limit your power due to sensors being able to detect it. He isn't a special snowflake here.

4: We had no guilt for what we did, they were not our people anymore. The orokin high command regarded themselves so apart from their subjects that they were nothing more than ants compared to gods in their eyes. We slaughtered the corrupt military leaders and government officials that took from us the one individual that kept us safe and protected, that corrupted our recovery to turn us into mind-controlled weapons of war, that would have us killed as soon as we filled our purpose. One typically does not have guilt towards that kind of thing.

5: You are not the only Tenno in existence, ending you would have done nothing since there were all the others. Stalker hesitated to kill you because killing you was a far more final thing compared to just killing Warframes. He had never truly killed a Tenno before (other than himself if StallordD's theory is to be believed). The only reason he turned is because of Hunhow's intervention, seen with the color of the energy on his armor changing in that scene to match that of War.

6: DE wont make stalker become an Excalibur Umbra, doing that would remove stalker as a potential enemy of the game and thus lock out any potential farming of his weapons by players.

[Gyrard]

Stalker is a real, tangible person or creature or whatever you want to call an Orokin abomination. His codex states that he was walking the desolate worlds the Orokin have destroyed or corrupted while we were all in slumber. While he does very much hate us, it's not because he's some Freudian incarnation of our inner edginess, it's because we kinda betrayed the hell out of the Orokin. While the Orokin were jerks of the highest caliber and got what was coming to them, they were also the best chance the solar system had for stability and prosperity, until their own hubris caught up with them. There's also the fact that Tenno seem completely desensitized to violence, either because they don't really feel that through the somatic link or because they've become numb to it. It's entirely possible that their slaughter of the Orokin was simply another fight to them. If the Tenno did feel remorse from that, I still don't believe they have the ability to consciously or subconsciously bring such a powerful person into existence as an emotional byproduct. As for his abilities and weapons, he likely made them solely for the purpose of hunting Warframes, hinted at by Despair's description. "Used by the Stalker, Despair throwing blades have a mono-filament edge, sharp enough to penetrate a Warframe."

[(PSN)Silverback73]

18 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

1: Where do you even get that the Tenno are capable of creating something with their minds that is a self-aware thing?

2: Why would these things that they created attack them?

3: His theme has to do with his feelings towards the Lie he was lead to believe, so yes emo ninja dude. He is not immune to your powers, he dispels them, like other frames do, and like bosses has a lot of invulnerabilities to cheese-fest abilities. Finding you isn't hard since the Corpus and Grineer do it when they send their hunters after you; they can trace your void signature, and even disable or limit your power due to sensors being able to detect it. He isn't a special snowflake here.

4: We had no guilt for what we did, they were not our people anymore. The orokin high command regarded themselves so apart from their subjects that they were nothing more than ants compared to gods in their eyes. We slaughtered the corrupt military leaders and government officials that took from us the one individual that kept us safe and protected, that corrupted our recovery to turn us into mind-controlled weapons of war, that would have us killed as soon as we filled our purpose. One typically does not have guilt towards that kind of thing.

5: You are not the only Tenno in existence, ending you would have done nothing since there were all the others. Stalker hesitated to kill you because killing you was a far more final thing compared to just killing Warframes. He had never truly killed a Tenno before (other than himself if StallordD's theory is to be believed). The only reason he turned is because of Hunhow's intervention, seen with the color of the energy on his armor changing in that scene to match that of War.

6: DE wont make stalker become an Excalibur Umbra, doing that would remove stalker as a potential enemy of the game and thus lock out any potential farming of his weapons by players.

1.  I'm saying he's a subconscious/unconscious creation...Really?  We are immortal children that slaughter enemies by the millions with Ninja Ghost-space-suits while asleep and you question "possibility"?

2. Guilt and self-hate/loathing is a classic story motivation (man vs self).  So is the effects of war (man vs environment).

3.  Your interpretation, but no more backed by fact than mine.  I'm pretty sure he is special...existing for millennia.

4. Again, "no guilt" is an equal assumption on your part with no facts to back it.  As a story, being a child forced to do these things out of necessity or otherwise, is going to affect your humanity, IMO.

5.  Constraints of game design must be navigated to accommodate the story.  Of course you aren't the only Tenno, a singular story in a Tennoverse.

Jung's COLLECTIVE Unconscious theory would explain a Stalker born of all Tenno if it bugs you.

6.  Good point, but "mastering" him/understanding what he is without killing him could still grant you the Umbra Frame.  It's just a possibility.

 

Edited October 11, 2016 by (PS4)Silverback73

[(PSN)Silverback73]

20 minutes ago, Gyrard said:

Stalker is a real, tangible person or creature or whatever you want to call an Orokin abomination. His codex states that he was walking the desolate worlds the Orokin have destroyed or corrupted while we were all in slumber. While he does very much hate us, it's not because he's some Freudian incarnation of our inner edginess, it's because we kinda betrayed the hell out of the Orokin. While the Orokin were jerks of the highest caliber and got what was coming to them, they were also the best chance the solar system had for stability and prosperity, until their own hubris caught up with them. There's also the fact that Tenno seem completely desensitized to violence, either because they don't really feel that through the somatic link or because they've become numb to it. It's entirely possible that their slaughter of the Orokin was simply another fight to them. If the Tenno did feel remorse from that, I still don't believe they have the ability to consciously or subconsciously bring such a powerful person into existence as an emotional byproduct. As for his abilities and weapons, he likely made them solely for the purpose of hunting Warframes, hinted at by Despair's description. "Used by the Stalker, Despair throwing blades have a mono-filament edge, sharp enough to penetrate a Warframe."

Desensitization from the nightmares (brainwashing) through the transference dream-state could have had the unintended side-effect of creating/helping to create Stalker.

You are making my point...masking all that negative energy or burying it deep in the subconscious or compartmentalizing it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  You have both the horrors of war and the horrors of the Void to contend with, and the damaging effects are mentioned and seen in Tenno cosmetics.

To further reinforce the idea, the Tennoverse is RIFE with Mother/child protector-frailty symbolism via Margulis/Lotus and the choice by DE to make us children.

[NeithanDiniem]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

1.  I'm saying he's a subconscious/unconscious creation...Really?  We are immortal children that slaughter enemies by the millions with Ninja Ghost-space-suits while asleep and you question "possibility"?

2. Guilt and self-hate/loathing is a classic story motivation (man vs self).  So is the effects of war (man vs environment).

3.  Your interpretation, but no more backed by fact than mine.  I'm pretty sure he is special...existing for millennia.

4. Again, "no guilt" is an equal assumption on your part with no facts to back it.  As a story, being a child forced to do these things out of necessity or otherwise, is going to affect your humanity, IMO.

5.  Constraints of game design must be navigated to accommodate the story.  Of course you aren't the only Tenno, a singular story in a Tennoverse.

Jung's COLLECTIVE Unconscious theory would explain a Stalker born of all Tenno if it bugs you.

6.  Good point, but "mastering" him/understanding what he is without killing him could still grant you the Umbra Frame.  It's just a possibility.

 

1: He existed before we even did the deed of slaughtering "our people" as you put it. Your argument is entirely invalid. He cannot be created as a physical thing before the act that created him occurs.

2: Show me where it applies here.

3: Teshin has also existed for millennia.

4: There is a significant amount of proof and in-game dialog that verifies that we had no guilt for what we did. There are facts all around about it.

5: Then your point that I countered is null and void. Killing you would have done nothing to "end" him so he would have no reason to have stopped himself with your theory.

6: but he would still be after you, and thus be a pointless paradox.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Desensitization from the nightmares (brainwashing) through the transference dream-state could have had the unintended side-effect of creating/helping to create Stalker.

You are making my point...masking all that negative energy or burying it deep in the subconscious or compartmentalizing it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  You have both the horrors of war and the horrors of the Void to contend with, and the damaging effects are mentioned and seen in Tenno cosmetics.

To further reinforce the idea, the Tennoverse is RIFE with Mother/child protector-frailty symbolism via Margulis/Lotus and the choice by DE to make us children.

The cosmetics for operators has to do with the damage they sustained when they gained their Tenno powers, not from War. They were never on the battlefields and in a position to take damage like that.

One symbolic instance makes it rife?

[Antiphoton]

Now that this topic has been bumped, I must say that I really enjoyed reading the theories of the OP. I find them so possible, that a part of me was afraid that Steve had to rewrite TWW because this thread spoiled it before it was even released. I hope that wasn't the case.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

37 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

1: He existed before we even did the deed of slaughtering "our people" as you put it. Your argument is entirely invalid. He cannot be created as a physical thing before the act that created him occurs.

2: Show me where it applies here.

3: Teshin has also existed for millennia.

4: There is a significant amount of proof and in-game dialog that verifies that we had no guilt for what we did. There are facts all around about it.

5: Then your point that I countered is null and void. Killing you would have done nothing to "end" him so he would have no reason to have stopped himself with your theory.

6: but he would still be after you, and thus be a pointless paradox.

The cosmetics for operators has to do with the damage they sustained when they gained their Tenno powers, not from War. They were never on the battlefields and in a position to take damage like that.

One symbolic instance makes it rife?

I fully understand the theory could be wrong.  I could be specific on how the parallels from the movie work here.

Stalker could very much have existed as a subconscious part of you, watching "from afar" through you as you slept, and yes you are Orokin and you brought down Orokin civilization so "your people".  It's a bit more high-concept than Space Jason Vorhees, I know...

The Void, in addition to physical damage has a sinister intelligence that caused nightmares...you know this.

Also, try thinking from a story perspective and not a video-game button-masher perspective on how endless war would affect a child.

I'm saying it is one possibility. 

Teshin as Stalker is underwhelming for me.

I sense a huge curveball here.

Thanks for the dialogue!

Edited October 12, 2016 by (PS4)Silverback73

[NeithanDiniem]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

I fully understand the theory could be wrong.  I could be specific on how the parallels from the movie work here.

Stalker could very much have existed as a subconscious part of you, watching "from afar" through you as you slept, and yes you are Orokin and you brought down Orokin civilization so "your people".  It's a bit more high-concept than Space Jason Vorhees, I know...

The Void, in addition to physical damage has a sinister intelligence that caused nightmares...you know this.

Also, try thinking from a story perspective and not a video-game button-masher perspective on how endless war would affect a child.

I'm saying it is one possibility. 

Teshin as Stalker is underwhelming for me.

I sense a huge curveball here.

No, I don't know about some sinister thing in the void that caused nightmares, because there is nothing at all in the game hinting at there being one. Something doesn't need to be sentient or sinister to cause nightmares. Nightmares can be caused by just about anything, its all about stress on the body and perception.

I am thinking about how this would affect a child. As are the people I discuss with that have actively fought in war. If someone is actively torturing you to the extent of controlling your body and actions, literally, I'm fairly sure they wouldn't suddenly feel remorse that they killed the things that had lost all connection to humanity and hurt them to the core. The Tenno were no longer a part of the Orokin civilization. They were assets in a war that was not of their creation. They were resources to be used, refuse to be destroyed after it filled its use. They were so detached from the empire, which was hardly something that was spectacular to anyone that wasn't part of the elite, since they were lost during the event that made them for so many years that they can hardly care that they took down the very thing that was detrimentally destroying the fabric of the system. Planets were ruined and destroyed, entire colonies wiped out and ruled without a care to management and care for the people. Why would they care if a overwhelming and cruel empire was ended?

Edited October 12, 2016 by NeithanDiniem

[jjpdn]

Ahhh. So YOU'RE the reason TWW has been delayed. DE has to write a new script now!

[(PSN)Silverback73]

1 hour ago, NeithanDiniem said:

No, I don't know about some sinister thing in the void that caused nightmares, because there is nothing at all in the game hinting at there being one. Something doesn't need to be sentient or sinister to cause nightmares. Nightmares can be caused by just about anything, its all about stress on the body and perception.

I am thinking about how this would affect a child. As are the people I discuss with that have actively fought in war. If someone is actively torturing you to the extent of controlling your body and actions, literally, I'm fairly sure they wouldn't suddenly feel remorse that they killed the things that had lost all connection to humanity and hurt them to the core. The Tenno were no longer a part of the Orokin civilization. They were assets in a war that was not of their creation. They were resources to be used, refuse to be destroyed after it filled its use. They were so detached from the empire, which was hardly something that was spectacular to anyone that wasn't part of the elite, since they were lost during the event that made them for so many years that they can hardly care that they took down the very thing that was detrimentally destroying the fabric of the system. Planets were ruined and destroyed, entire colonies wiped out and ruled without a care to management and care for the people. Why would they care if a overwhelming and cruel empire was ended?

"This will stop the voices from taking hold. You will have to dream, my angel..."

[NeithanDiniem]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

"This will stop the voices from taking hold. You will have to dream, my angel..."

Those that suffer severe trauma and mental breakdown often claim to hear voices. It does not mean there is some boogyman that is behind them all. The Tenno were lost on the Zariman for over a hundred years, trapped in the void and twisted by its energies. Its going to break a few neurodes in the brain box.

[ObviousLee]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

"This will stop the voices from taking hold. You will have to dream, my angel..."

the issue with this is that he was present, as an entity that was incapable of performing any actions to prevent the tenno from slaughtering the orokin leaders, meaning that he was likely a failed tenno experiment or was something akin to a dax soldier. As @NeithanDiniem mentioned earlier StallorD has a fantastic theory of the origin of the stalker as well. If you've not watched it, you may also consider the lancer entry i've mentioned a few times that cites the moment i believe the stalker discovered the secret of the well.

point is the evidence the game presents to use show only a few directions the tale could go, and collective negative feedback coalescing into a singular frame doesn't really seem like it would make a lotta sense.