Missions 2.0: An Attempt To Have Missions Make Actual Sense

[lihimsidhe]

Mission 2.0 is also posted on /r/warframe and Steam

Survival

- Remove Life Support.  This is where Mission 2.0 started because this makes not even a bit of sense.  Enemies carrying around containers with only a few seconds of air?  They somehow make the atmosphere on their ships selective?  "I'd love to enter your lungs bro but I've got orders."  Even assuming that nonsnese was true 'in universe' I'm pretty sure oxygen tank technology has come a long way by then. If our Warframes can carry around spheres that give rise to sentient life (spectres), hundreds of energy and health restores, then I'm positive they can carry around breathing tanks.  Or they could hijack the air tanks the enemies are using (because they sure as Hell would be more than a few seconds).  No matter which way you cut this, it has never and will never make sense.  This game deserves a mode where the only thing to worry about is... survival.

+ Add Anti-Scaling Objectives.  It makes sense for the enemies to get more serious about killing us the longer we are there killing them. Every 5 minutes, an objective will appear on the map that has to be completed within 1 minute. If players complete this objective, they get a reward as normal per Mission 1.0 survival rewards and enemies scale slowly.(1) If the objective is not completed, the players receive no time based reward and all new enemy spawns will now be current enemy level + 25.

(1) Suggested by Redthirst on WF official forums

Excavation

- Remove Power Cells.  "Sir!  Four Warframes have been spotten in the northern quadrant of Triton!  The Lotus is sending down barely charged drills!  They intend to excavate our resources for their own gain!"  "You know the drill crewman... arm some of our soldiers with the ONLY thing that can keep their drills going and get their boots on ground asap!"  "But sir?!"  "YOU HEARD ME!"  No.  Let's stop the madness.

+ Add Fully Charged Drills That Go Faster via Shield Charging.  Firstly Lotus sends down drills that are fully charged.  Let's pretend she has the technology of wall outlets in the far flung future. On their own they drills will excavate a reward every x seconds.  However, if we charge the drills with our shields, the drills will offer up rewards that much faster. As long as we keep the drill alive, it keeps digging up rewards. When it gets destroyed, Lotus sends down another drill somewhere else. Somewhere random maybe?

+ Add Chance of Planet Resource Per Drill Reward. Every time an excavator actually excavates a cache, we have a small chance to also get a cache of that planet's resources. So that means excavations on Jupiter will very, very, rarely offer up Nerual Sensors but not so super rarely offer up salvage, fieldron samples, and alloy plates.(1)

(1)Tweak added by H2K3 on WF official forums

Exterminate

+ Add More Enemies. Let's have Exterminates for 500. 1000. 5000. The sky is the limit. Either every x minutes into an Exterminate and/or after x enemies are killed, there will be a chance for a mini boss to spawn.(1)

(1) Suggested by (XB1)TeenyRagtag on WF official forums

Infiltrate (formerly spy)

Name Change Only.  Infiltrate is a lot closer to what we are actually doing.  Getting in quick, with or without stealth, to hack their stuff and then bounce before they know what hit them.  Spy makes me think that I'm behind enemy lines, with them thinking I'm one of them, subverting them from the inside, collecting intel, with maybe an occasional assasination.  A mode like that sounds awesome and maybe one day DE will do it with branching dialogue trees to boot.  Until then infiltrate is more accurate.  Save spy for when are an actual spy doing spy stuff.

Sabotage

+ Add Target Guards.  This mode is actually kind of sensible as it is and we have different types of sabotage which is awesome.  The only suggestion is that wherever the sabotage target is, there are some TOUGH enemies guarding it.  "Oh hey why do the Tenno keep destroying our valuable stuff?  Oh maybe it's because we guard our high value targets as much concern as we would guard 5 storage lockers and a random hallway.  Oh maybe that's it."

Defense

- Remove Clueless, Meandering, Sortie Defense Targets. I find it hard to believe that the person we are defending, a person important to the Tenno and Lotus, has as much sense as solar powered flashlight. I see why DE did it but honestly it's just dumb. Like Batman vs Superman Martha dumb. Keep in game only if they have the same functionality as spectres (follow, hold position).(1)

+ Add a Variety of Defense Targets. Where do 'new players' come from? Okay the cyropods make sense and they are cool. We also defend reactors and that direction is what I'd like to see. More of what's happening in the origin systems via enviromental storytelling via defense targets. Just keep the meandering targets out of it and you pretty much can't go wrong.

+ Absorb Mobile Defense. Mobile defense is misleading for the defense targets are not mobile. There is already a true mobile defense mission in WF and that's Hijack. If anything mobile defense would be multi-defense. Sometimes we defend one thing in one location or one thing in multiple locations. Either way it's all just defense.(2) For defense missions involving hacking, these missions can be stealthed. Breaking stealth increases security around defense targets.(3)

(1) suggested by /u/Volttexx on /r/warframe

(2) This suggestion was borne from an exchange with (XB1)TeenyRagtag on WF official forums.

(3) Suggested by /u/madalchymist on /r/warframe.

Hijack

+ Add a Variety of Hijack Targets.  We currently have the Fomorian power core hijack and the corpus shield draining hijack.  Just add more variety for hijack targets and take that opportunity to do some more environmental storytelling.

Rescue

+ Add Carry.  We can carry targets by having them mount our backs and they hang on to us for dear life.  While doing so they are free to fire our secondary weapon while we move. The rationale is that to be able to be as mobile and jump as high as Warframes do, their base strength is already squarely superhuman.  Our Warframes move unhindered regardless if they are only packing only a Ceramic Dagger or a Fragor Prime, Opticor, a massive sydanna, Iron Skin and Twin Grakatas and somehow... all the ammo for all of that.  Carrying a person that weighs nore more than a few hundred pounds wouldn't matter that much to a Warframe that can exert thousands of pounds of force w/o getting tired.  The target would take fall damage when we do hard landings.

Capture

- Remove the Palmportation. Because really if we can absorb people into our hands and teleport them to somewhere else it creates more problems than it solves. Firstly why don't we just palmport rescue targets? Secondly,why don't we palmport extra weapons and ammo in or drops out? Why isn't teleportation technology more prevalent if it can literally fit in the palm of a hand? That level 100+ mob? Blast proc him and then palm port it out of there. Just get rid of palmport all together.

+ Add Recon & Stealth. Targets have to located via hacking or just randomly coming across them. If players can stealth their way to the target, they can stealth capture them instantly. If stealth is broken before target acquisition, target gets a security detail while attempting to flee.(1)

+ Add Carry and Throw. Without any more palmporting, we have to carry the capture target back to extraction just like a rescue target. The key difference here is that if we don't knock the target out, it will offer resistance. So it may be wise to disarm him with Loki first. Or Mind Control him into compliance. Or you know... just knock him out by throwing him against the wall like he was the #1 fan of Lunaro.

- Removed Interrogation. Feedback basically pointed at it being TortureFrame at that point.(2)

(1) This was wholly suggested by /u/aleco247 on /r/warframe

(2) Suggested by Genoscythe on WF official forums.

Assassinate

- Remove Boss Invulnerable States. Bosses no longer have any invulnerable states. At most they would have damage resistant states. Also, all Warframe abilities should work on them to some degree.

+ Security Detail.  Each target is accompanied by a security detail.  This detail does their best to defend the target and will actively relocate to wherever the target is.  They should always be the most potent mob spawns that planet has to offer.  Once a boss fight begins, normal enemy spawns are replaced with security detail spawns.

+ Add Boss Chambers.  These areas can only be accessed via hacking.  Chambers also have a number of environmental advantages available support target (think turrets, Zanuka, and anti Warframe measures; not Kayla De Thuum spinning circle nonsense).  Boss's will not leave Boss Chambers.  Unless Boss Chamber doors are continually hacked shut, they will allow security detail enemies in to aid the boss.

+ Add Recon and Stealth.  Targets have to be located via hacking or just randomly coming across them.  If stealth can be maintained until boss chamber entry, security detail spawns as normal.  If stealth is broken, security detail spawn rate is tripled.  

~ Modify Boss Drops. Since targets will take longer to locate and defeat (about 10 - 15 minutes), boss drops in Mission 2.0 should represent the boss drops from grinding Mission 1.0 bosses x times in same amount of time listed above. Ex: Mission 2.0 Alad V would drop 0 - 5 WF BP's, 0 - 10 Neural Sensors, etc.

The entire Assassinate rework is a combination of suggestions from /u/aleco247 from /r/warframe , Endless_Destruction and Daggerpaw1 from WF official forums and me.

Edited August 11, 2016 by lihimsidhe

[Genoscythe]

I really like some of your ideas. I do not know however how he age rating of WF would change if we had to torture people to get into information, some countires really don't understand fun in that concern. Props on the drilling idea for excavation and the guards for valuable objectives. However I do not think that a normal rescue target would be able to withstand the fast acceleration and movements of a warframe when "riding" it. Rescue targets are fine as they are and can actually prove quite useful if you give them your secondary (makes stalker fights a piece of cake).

 

Giving missions a bit more logic would surely add to the atmosphere, but one also has to consider game design for them. If we remove life support on survival for example one could simply camp for hours with an invisible warframe or on a good spot and the point of killing enemies would be lost.

 

I also don't need exterminate missions with thousands of enemies, this would make them just take way too long and would make some things like grinding for synthesis targets or fragment scans a chore.

 

Some missions simply don't have to be overly complex or include various objectives and obstacles. Especially if you simply want to grind for something a short mission is actually better.

 

If we are at logic already, I would like to see some actually logic enemy spawning. Like having enemies dropped from the orbit or troop transports when fighting on planets.

Edited August 1, 2016 by Genoscythe

[Arxfiend]

"Hey guys! Drill's almost done!"
"What is it?"
"WOW! WE HIT A VEIN OF @(*()$ POTATOES!" or, even better "GUYS! APPARENTLY, CIRCUITS ARE NATURAL!"

 

Just saying.

Edited August 1, 2016 by H2K3

[lihimsidhe]

1 minute ago, H2K3 said:

"Hey guys! Drill's almost done!"
"What is it?"
"WOW! WE HIT A VEIN OF @(*()$ POTATOES!" or, even better "GUYS! APPARENTLY, CIRCUITS ARE NATURAL!"

 

Just saying.

As natural as hitting veins of fusion cores, mods, and relics.  Just saying.  If the Old War caused a Berserker mod to be buried deep in the ground then it's not a stretch at all to say there are some circuits there.  Or a nerual sensor.  Or salvage.  Or whatever.  I see what you're saying but honestly if you don't feel that a planet's natural resources aren't sensible as excavation targets then the mods, relics, and cores shouldn't be there by extension.

[lihimsidhe]

15 minutes ago, Genoscythe said:

I do not know however how he age rating of WF would change if we had to torture people to get into information, some countires really don't understand fun in that concern.

I mean that is a valid point.  I didn't even consider it really.  Is this really all that different than bisecting someone in half with a Sancti Tigris or headshotting x mobs into outer space?

16 minutes ago, Genoscythe said:

However I do not think that a normal rescue target would be able to withstand the fast acceleration and movements of a warframe when "riding" it.

If they are strong enough to withstand any amount of enemy fire, they are strong enough to withstand the equivalent of what is essentially a very small roller coaster.  Plus this can minimize the rescue missions where the hostage gets stuck, won't follow, etc.  We just pick them up and get on our way.

19 minutes ago, Genoscythe said:

If we remove life support on survival for example one could simply camp for hours with an invisible warframe or on a good spot and the point of killing enemies would be lost.

This happens regardless dude.  The whole camping vs not camping comes down to play style and goals.  Every long haul survival I've ever done comes down to camping anyways.  4 players running all over the map, spreading drops all over the map, getting downed across the map... that doesn't really last more than 30 minutes into a survival.  So whether WF keeps the nonsensical LS or implements something where players just focus on survival in a survival mission type, campers will camp and hallway heroes will hall way hero.

23 minutes ago, Genoscythe said:

I also don't need exterminate missions with thousands of enemies, this would make them just take way too long and would make some things like grinding for synthesis targets or fragment scans a chore.

These would be alerts I would imagine with rewards befitting of the effort. The key word here would be optional.  I totally under stand players of your disposition may not want to do a super huge exterminate.  Players like me would.  The best thing would be that we both can have what we want without it being forced upon the other.

25 minutes ago, Genoscythe said:

Some missions simply don't have to be overly complex or include various objectives and obstacles. Especially if you simply want to grind for something a short mission is actually better.

I agree.  I don't thing my suggestions add substantially to the overall length of what a mission would normally take to accomplish outside of Capture. 

26 minutes ago, Genoscythe said:

If we are at logic already, I would like to see some actually logic enemy spawning. Like having enemies dropped from the orbit or troop transports when fighting on planets.

F*** yes!!!!

[Arxfiend]

2 hours ago, lihimsidhe said:

As natural as hitting veins of fusion cores, mods, and relics.  Just saying.  If the Old War caused a Berserker mod to be buried deep in the ground then it's not a stretch at all to say there are some circuits there.  Or a nerual sensor.  Or salvage.  Or whatever.  I see what you're saying but honestly if you don't feel that a planet's natural resources aren't sensible as excavation targets then the mods, relics, and cores shouldn't be there by extension.

Actually, the issue is more that the part of excavation is that we're mining for cryotic veins. We are just finding caches.

[BlackCoMerc]

3 hours ago, lihimsidhe said:

Survival

- Remove Life Support.  This is where Mission 2.0 started because this makes not even a bit of sense.  Enemies carrying around containers with only a few seconds of air?  They somehow make the atmosphere on their ships selective?  "I'd love to enter your lungs bro but I've got orders."  Even assuming that nonsnese was true 'in universe' I'm pretty sure oxygen tank technology has come a long way by then. If our Warframes can carry around spheres that give rise to sentient life (spectres), hundreds of energy and health restores, then I'm positive they can carry around breathing tanks.  Or they could hijack the air tanks the enemies are using (because they sure as Hell would be more than a few seconds).  No matter which way you cut this, it has never and will never make sense.  It doesn't border on ridiculous... it was born past the realms of ridiculousness and is the Mayor of WTFville.

+ Add Anti-Scaling Objectives.  It makes sense for the enemies to get more serious about killing us the longer we are there killing them.  Every x minutes all the enemies within a survival mission should jump up by y levels where y is something to worry about.  Jump up UNLESS we complete a limited time objective.  An objective that represents us working with the Lotus to disrupt the logistics of would be reinforcements.  It could be hacking to keep doors shut.  It could be defeating a mini boss that would lead the charge.  It can be anything as long as it's not having to do with air.  However, to the players that want the challenge of massively scaling enemies, they don't have to prevent anything.  All they have to do is ready their weapons, brace themselves for what is to come, and *survive*. 

Excavation

- Remove Power Cells.  "Sir!  Four Warframes have been spotten in the northern quadrant of Triton!  The Lotus is sending down barely charged drills!  They intend to excavate our resources for their own gain!"  "You know the drill crewman... arm some of our soldiers with the ONLY thing that can keep their drills going and get their boots on ground asap!"  "But sir?!"  "YOU HEARD ME!"  No.  Let's stop the madness.

+ Add Drills Powered By Our Shields.  Firstly Lotus sends down drills that are fully charged.  Let's pretend she has the technology of wall outlets in the far flung future. On their own they drills will excavate a reward every x seconds.  However, if we charge the drills with our shields, the drills will offer up rewards that much faster. As long as we keep the drill alive, it keeps digging up rewards. When it gets destroyed, Lotus sends down another drill somewhere else. Somewhere random maybe?

+ Drills Mine Something Other than Cryotic.  Instead of Cryotic all the time let's say each drill upon completion has a small chance to award an rng amount of that planet's resources. Perhaps the longer we keep the drills alive the bigger this small chance becomes?  It just makes sense that there is something other than cryotic in the ground on all the planets and moons.

Exterminate

+ Add More Enemies.  Let's have Exterminates for 500.  1000.  5000.  The sky is the limit.  That's my only suggestion for this mode because sense wise, it does make sense for us to clear out x location of enemies for our own goals.

Infiltrate (formerly spy)

Name Change Only.  Infiltrate is a lot closer to what we are actually doing.  Getting in quick, with or without stealth, to hack their stuff and then bounce before they know what hit them.  Spy makes me think that I'm behind enemy lines, with them thinking I'm one of them, subverting them from the inside, collecting intel, with maybe an occasional assasination.  A mode like that sounds awesome and maybe one day DE will do it with branching dialogue trees to boot.  Until then infiltrate is more accurate.  Save spy for when are an actual spy doing spy stuff.

Sabotage

+ Add Target Guards.  This mode is actually kind of sensible as it is and we have different types of sabotage which is awesome.  The only suggestion is that wherever the sabotage target is, there are some TOUGH enemies guarding it.  "Oh hey why do the Tenno keep destroying our valuable stuff?  Oh maybe it's because we guard our high value targets as much concern as we would guard 5 storage lockers and a random hallway.  Oh maybe that's it."

Defense

- Remove Clueless, Meandering, Sortie Defense Targets.  I find it hard to believe that the person we are defending, a person important to the Tenno and Lotus, has as much sense as solar powered flashlight.  I see why DE did it but honestly it's just dumb.  Like Batman vs Superman Martha dumb.  

+ Add a Variety of Defense Targets.  Where do 'new players' come from?  Okay the cyropods make sense and they are cool.  We also defend reactors and that direction is what I'd like to see.  More of what's happening in the origin systems via enviromental storytelling via defense targets. Just keep the meandering targets out of it and you pretty much can't go wrong.

Mobile Defense

+ Add Target Guards.  There's nothing that really stands out about this mode that doesn't make any sense other than the Grineer/Corpus should know what their weakest access points are and have them guarded appropriately.  We shouldn't be arriving at mobile defense targets and there's just no one there.  I guess the only other thing is perhaps the Tenno should invest in backpack technology to carry the datamasses so they don't *have* to use their secondary?   But even with that said I find being forced to use our secondary to be interesting in this case. 

Rescue

+ Add Carry and Throw.  We can either carry the hostages on our backs or we can throw them around like huge footballs.  My rationale is that to be able to be as mobile and jump as high as Warframes do, their base strength is already squarely superhuman.  Our Warframes move unhindered regardless if they are only packing only a Ceramic Dagger or a Fragor Prime, Opticor, a massive sydanna, Iron Skin and Twin Grakatas and somehow... all the ammo for all of that.  Carrying a person that weighs nore more than a few hundred pounds wouldn't matter that much to a Warframe that can exert thousands of pounds of force w/o getting tired.  Piggyback a ride on us and fire our secondary while we parkour about.  Tell me that wouldn't be awesome.

Capture

- Remove the Palmportation.  Because really if we can absorb people into our hands and teleport them to somewhere else it creates more problems than it solves.  Firstly why don't we just palmport rescue targets?  Secondly,why don't we palmport extra weapons and ammo in?  Why don't we palm port incoming bombbard missles?  Why isn't teleportation technology more prevalent if it can literally fit in the palm of a hand?  That level 100+ mob?  Blast proc him and then palm port it out of there.  Just get rid of palmport all together.

+ Add Carry and Throw.  Without any more palmporting, we have to carry the capture target back to extraction just like a rescue target.  The key difference here is that if we don't knock the target out, it will offer resistance.  So it may be wise to disarm him with Loki first.  Or Mind Control him into compliance.  Or you know... just knock him out by throwing him against the wall like he was the #1 fan of Lunaro.

+ Add Interrogations.  Instead of taking the target back to be interrogated, we can do it instead.  It could be a mini game.  It could just be to inflict just enough damage without killing them (so Tonkor = bad interrogation weapon... unmodded Dark Dagger to inflict a thousand cuts?  Perfect.  Trinity using Well of Life to put them in a constant cycle of pain and regeneration?  More perfect). The safest way would be to knock out the target and carry them back to extraction.  However, a successful interrogation will offer a bonus reward.  

Mission 2.0 is also posted on /r/warframe here.

Basically all of this needs to happen. That much of it hasn't yet is frankly disappointing.

Another issue: every relevant target everywhere suddenly featuring power immunity. Makes no logical sense.

Edited August 1, 2016 by BlackCoMerc

[Endless_Destruction]

Very well put together, but I have a few Assassination suggestions:

Lotus: "The Target knows you are here."

Captain Vor: "Woohoo! The guys who wiped out pretty much an entire continent's worth of us is here to kill me, and I know that he is here for certain! I'm going to sit in an open space, alone, not moving, with no special guards or reinforcements on hand!"

-Make it so that the target does not initially know you are here, and finds out if the player sets off alarms or is caught on camera, then makes it progressively difficult for you to reach the boss chamber.

-Have the boss surrounded by the most powerful kind of enemies all aware of our presence, if not in the boss chamber, then in the ones immediately adjoining it.

-Have the boss prepare evacuation for himself, and act like a Capture target if we do not reach the boss chamber in time. (Only for certain bosses, might not make sense for every target, ex. Alad V is unwilling to leave his lab even in the most dire circumstances)

-Remove completely the invulnerability features of a lot of bosses, that is lazy boss design and strips player creativity. Instead just have the boss have an absolutely insane amount of health, which takes more damage if we do certain things (ex. Lech Kril have massive health, but will take more damage if we hit the cryo tubes, instead of being invulnerable in the meantime).

Lotus: "X has incredibly powerful Y."

X Boss: "Oooh, hit a certain health threshold, better get rid of Y and become really easy to take down!"

-Yeah, no. Have the bosses act like remotely intelligent beings. If X were to exchange Y for something comparable, this wouldn't be an issue, but in many cases X just gives up and runs around just begging to get killed.

-Make the boss chamber be somewhere that suits the boss. It would make sense for a boss to be somewhere s/he finds comfortable, such as Alad V in a lab, or the Sergeant to be in an armory. The logical next step is to have extensive (randomized) environmental hazards that suit the boss or map, because why would a boss sit somewhere so bland and flat? (ex. Zanuka dies, Alad V picks up an experimental bazooka, or activates a hidden security feature in his lab)

Edited August 1, 2016 by Endless_Destruction
forgot to add stuff

[lihimsidhe]

1 hour ago, H2K3 said:

Actually, the issue is more that the part of excavation is that we're mining for cryotic veins. We are just finding caches.

Okay I see where you are coming from now.  You're thinking that I'm saying there should be these HUGE veins of detonite ampules, gallium, etc. And that's because how I worded it and it's entirely my fault.  What I meant to say is we still get cryotic but each drill has a small chance to offer up that planet's natural resources for every reward marker it hits. I'm changing the OP on here and on /r/warframe.  Thanks man.
 

[lihimsidhe]

1 hour ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Another issue: every relevant target everywhere suddenly featuring power immunity. Makes no logical sense.

Do you mean enemies being immune to our Warframe abilities?

[lihimsidhe]

1 hour ago, Endless_Destruction said:

Captain Vor: "Woohoo! The guys who wiped out pretty much an entire continent's worth of us is here to kill me, and I know that he is here for certain! I'm going to sit in an open space, alone, not moving, with no special guards or reinforcements on hand!"

1 hour ago, Endless_Destruction said:

-Make it so that the target does not initially know you are here, and finds out if the player sets off alarms or is caught on camera, then makes it progressively difficult for you to reach the boss chamber.

1 hour ago, Endless_Destruction said:

Make the boss chamber be somewhere that suits the boss. It would make sense for a boss to be somewhere s/he finds comfortable, such as Alad V in a lab, or the Sergeant to be in an armory. The logical next step is to have extensive (randomized) environmental hazards that suit the boss or map, because why would a boss sit somewhere so bland and flat? (ex. Zanuka dies, Alad V picks up an experimental bazooka, or activates a hidden security feature in his lab)

Firstly, the quoting options on this forum are on point.  God damn.  Praise the Lotus.

I really don't have any objections to this.  In fact dude I'm going to add it to the OP (both here and on /r/warframe).

Basically if we can stealth to the target, we can get the drop on the target.  Regardless once the target is aware that we are there either through alarms or because we are slicing his face off, he has two options: flee or fortify.

If the target flees he's going to his own extraction point.  If he gets there we fail the mission.

If the target fortifies, we are lured to an area they have prepared in just such a situation. There they will fight us.

So using the Alad V example, if he get discovered on the way, the difficulty of the mobs would shoot up, Zankuas would be coming after us before and after we arrive at Alad V, and once we do get to Alad V, he has some nasty surprises for us.  

As long as those surprises are sensible.  Because I really did dislike the Kaala De Thuum (sp?) bs where we had to shoot the spinning wheels to get her to come out?  Felt like such a Rube Goldberg device for no reason other than, "Well we have to make this boss battle special somehow other than making her too hard."

 

[Arxfiend]

49 minutes ago, lihimsidhe said:

Okay I see where you are coming from now.  You're thinking that I'm saying there should be these HUGE veins of detonite ampules, gallium, etc. And that's because how I worded it and it's entirely my fault.  What I meant to say is we still get cryotic but each drill has a small chance to offer up that planet's natural resources for every reward marker it hits. I'm changing the OP on here and on /r/warframe.  Thanks man.
 

Ah, that clears it up, lol. That makes sense, but seriously, I have enough alloy plates and ferrite already.

[JohnnyQuantum]

+ 1

 

[Valthryn]

 

23 hours ago, Endless_Destruction said:

Very well put together, but I have a few Assassination suggestions:

Lotus: "The Target knows you are here."

Captain Vor: "Woohoo! The guys who wiped out pretty much an entire continent's worth of us is here to kill me, and I know that he is here for certain! I'm going to sit in an open space, alone, not moving, with no special guards or reinforcements on hand!"

-Make it so that the target does not initially know you are here, and finds out if the player sets off alarms or is caught on camera, then makes it progressively difficult for you to reach the boss chamber.

-Have the boss surrounded by the most powerful kind of enemies all aware of our presence, if not in the boss chamber, then in the ones immediately adjoining it.

-Have the boss prepare evacuation for himself, and act like a Capture target if we do not reach the boss chamber in time. (Only for certain bosses, might not make sense for every target, ex. Alad V is unwilling to leave his lab even in the most dire circumstances)

-Remove completely the invulnerability features of a lot of bosses, that is lazy boss design and strips player creativity. Instead just have the boss have an absolutely insane amount of health, which takes more damage if we do certain things (ex. Lech Kril have massive health, but will take more damage if we hit the cryo tubes, instead of being invulnerable in the meantime).

Lotus: "X has incredibly powerful Y."

X Boss: "Oooh, hit a certain health threshold, better get rid of Y and become really easy to take down!"

-Yeah, no. Have the bosses act like remotely intelligent beings. If X were to exchange Y for something comparable, this wouldn't be an issue, but in many cases X just gives up and runs around just begging to get killed.

-Make the boss chamber be somewhere that suits the boss. It would make sense for a boss to be somewhere s/he finds comfortable, such as Alad V in a lab, or the Sergeant to be in an armory. The logical next step is to have extensive (randomized) environmental hazards that suit the boss or map, because why would a boss sit somewhere so bland and flat? (ex. Zanuka dies, Alad V picks up an experimental bazooka, or activates a hidden security feature in his lab)

All of these ideas would be great for a single-player game with linear progression like Dark Souls, but when it comes to MMO's, grinding is always a factor. Having bosses that are intensely powerful and take more than 5 minutes to down when you're geared will just make the grind situation a tedious chore, given that the only real reason to fight bosses in WF is for rare resources and/or blueprints, they don't drop anything special other than a cosmetic sigil, which isn't useful, and it only drops the first time you kill them. The main reason I don't play Vindictus much at all anymore is because all the missions take too long to be rewarded with nothing, and I feel like adding more complex mechanics to boss battles would just turn WF boss battle nodes into the same thing.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Daggerpaw1

[(XBOX)TeenyRagtag]

On 8/1/2016 at 8:02 AM, lihimsidhe said:

 

+ Add Anti-Scaling Objectives.  It makes sense for the enemies to get more serious about killing us the longer we are there killing them.  Every x minutes all the enemies within a survival mission should jump up by y levels where y is something to worry about.  Jump up UNLESS we complete a limited time objective.  An objective that represents us working with the Lotus to disrupt the logistics of would be reinforcements.  It could be hacking to keep doors shut.  It could be defeating a mini boss that would lead the charge.  It can be anything as long as it's not having to do with air.  However, to the players that want the challenge of massively scaling enemies, they don't have to prevent anything.  All they have to do is ready their weapons, brace themselves for what is to come, and *survive*. 

Excavation

- Remove Power Cells.  "Sir!  Four Warframes have been spotten in the northern quadrant of Triton!  The Lotus is sending down barely charged drills!  They intend to excavate our resources for their own gain!"  "You know the drill crewman... arm some of our soldiers with the ONLY thing that can keep their drills going and get their boots on ground asap!"  "But sir?!"  "YOU HEARD ME!"  No.  Let's stop the madness.

+ Add Drills Powered By Our Shields.  Firstly Lotus sends down drills that are fully charged.  Let's pretend she has the technology of wall outlets in the far flung future. On their own they drills will excavate a reward every x seconds.  However, if we charge the drills with our shields, the drills will offer up rewards that much faster. As long as we keep the drill alive, it keeps digging up rewards. When it gets destroyed, Lotus sends down another drill somewhere else. Somewhere random maybe?

+ Add Chance of Planet Resource Per Drill Reward. Every time an excavator actually excavates a cache, we have a small chance to also get a cache of that planet's resources. So that means excavations on Jupiter will very, very, rarely offer up Nerual Sensors but not so super rarely offer up salvage, fieldron samples, and alloy plates.*
*Tweak added by H2K3 on WF official forums

Exterminate

+ Add More Enemies.  Let's have Exterminates for 500.  1000.  5000.  The sky is the limit.  That's my only suggestion for this mode because sense wise, it does make sense for us to clear out x location of enemies for our own goals.

Mobile Defense

+ Add Target Guards.  There's nothing that really stands out about this mode that doesn't make any sense other than the Grineer/Corpus should know what their weakest access points are and have them guarded appropriately.  We shouldn't be arriving at mobile defense targets and there's just no one there.  I guess the only other thing is perhaps the Tenno should invest in backpack technology to carry the datamasses so they don't *have* to use their secondary?   But even with that said I find being forced to use our secondary to be interesting in this case. 

Rescue

+ Add Carry and Throw.  We can either carry the hostages on our backs or we can throw them around like huge footballs.  My rationale is that to be able to be as mobile and jump as high as Warframes do, their base strength is already squarely superhuman.  Our Warframes move unhindered regardless if they are only packing only a Ceramic Dagger or a Fragor Prime, Opticor, a massive sydanna, Iron Skin and Twin Grakatas and somehow... all the ammo for all of that.  Carrying a person that weighs nore more than a few hundred pounds wouldn't matter that much to a Warframe that can exert thousands of pounds of force w/o getting tired.  Piggyback a ride on us and fire our secondary while we parkour about.  Tell me that wouldn't be awesome.

Capture

- Remove the Palmportation.  Because really if we can absorb people into our hands and teleport them to somewhere else it creates more problems than it solves.  Firstly why don't we just palmport rescue targets?  Secondly,why don't we palmport extra weapons and ammo in?  Why don't we palm port incoming bombbard missles?  Why isn't teleportation technology more prevalent if it can literally fit in the palm of a hand?  That level 100+ mob?  Blast proc him and then palm port it out of there.  Just get rid of palmport all together.

+ Add Carry and Throw.  Without any more palmporting, we have to carry the capture target back to extraction just like a rescue target.  The key difference here is that if we don't knock the target out, it will offer resistance.  So it may be wise to disarm him with Loki first.  Or Mind Control him into compliance.  Or you know... just knock him out by throwing him against the wall like he was the #1 fan of Lunaro.

Removed Interrogation option. Feedback basically pointed at it being TortureFrame at that point. Suggestion by Genoscythe on WF official forums

Mission 2.0 is also posted on /r/warframe here.

 

Survival

I completely agree with you on the fact that survival needs more ways to keep you interested as for suggestions on how to do that. I have none...

Excavation

Your suggestions for Excavation missions is spot on. I find no fault in your reasoning and it makes more sense than the current excavation missions. Especially the chance of planet of planet resources dropping from drill. That would increase the incentive to do those missions.

Exterminate

I cringe at the fact of killing more than 180 enemies so killing anywhere close to 500 or 1000 is a serious put off for me. However i do agree that extermination missions can be rather bland. My suggestion is that there could be a mini boss that pops up in exterminate missions every once awhile, The mini boss wouldn't be that hard but has the possibility of dropping rare planet resources,  gold r5 cores, keys, or we could have Oberon parts drop from these mini bosses. I think this type of extermination plays better in the assassination mission you proposed since those missions should be more intricate.

Capture

I've always found capture missions extremely bland and boring. You literally can go in and capture the target in a matter of secs if you bring a warframe that will take out the target quickly. So in my opinion we should get rid of the palm teleport and do something else. I suggest instead of teleporting, we handcuff the target and the squad member that handcuffed the target, basically has to escort him and while escorting him. They can only use their secondary and have limited movements like not being able to bullet jump  or roll. This would require your teammates to guard you so you can safely get to the target to extraction and while this is happening. There should be more enemies popping up because it's only logical that they want to keep the target from being taken away by the Tenno.  

Mobile Defense

I always felt that mobile defense was a misleading name for that mission type. It's basically just a defense mission with more than one defense target. I know you are being mobile by moving from target to target, but it's not really a mobile defense. Honestly they should just replace all the mobile defense missions with the hijack missions and take out the shield powered vehicle aspect. That would basically make the mission feel more like a mobile defense than the way it currently is now. 

Edited August 3, 2016 by (XB1)TeenyRagtag
formatting

[EinheriarJudith]

On 8/1/2016 at 11:02 AM, lihimsidhe said:

~snip~

 

23 minutes ago, (XB1)TeenyRagtag said:

~snip~

suggestions from both of these posts should be implemented in the near future. it is exactly what ive been thinking about for as long as ive been playing WF. i want to add that i detest hallway heroes and if any of these can prevent that disgusting behavior it should come in the next big patch.

Edited August 3, 2016 by EinheriarJudith

[EinheriarJudith]

bump

[Tenno29543]

On 8/1/2016 at 8:02 AM, lihimsidhe said:

 

Survival

- Remove Life Support.  This is where Mission 2.0 started because this makes not even a bit of sense.  Enemies carrying around containers with only a few seconds of air?  They somehow make the atmosphere on their ships selective?  "I'd love to enter your lungs bro but I've got orders."  Even assuming that nonsnese was true 'in universe' I'm pretty sure oxygen tank technology has come a long way by then. If our Warframes can carry around spheres that give rise to sentient life (spectres), hundreds of energy and health restores, then I'm positive they can carry around breathing tanks.  Or they could hijack the air tanks the enemies are using (because they sure as Hell would be more than a few seconds).  No matter which way you cut this, it has never and will never make sense.  It doesn't border on ridiculous... it was born past the realms of ridiculousness and is the Mayor of WTFville.

 

dats cute and all but the main idea of life support is that so people can't just camp at a unreachable spot, set up a macro  and just go afk for hours on end and come back with a big fat score and loads of rewards for doing nothing. life support make sure you can't do dat or you will run out of air and die.

Edited August 6, 2016 by BigBlackCook

[EinheriarJudith]

On 8/5/2016 at 8:29 PM, BigBlackCook said:

dats cute and all but the main idea of life support is that so people can't just camp at a unreachable spot, set up a macro  and just go afk for hours on end and come back with a big fat score and loads of rewards for doing nothing. life support make sure you can't do dat or you will run out of air and die.

You've completely missed the mark. last i checked people still camp. current survival is pro camping in the first place. i was able to (numerous times) come close to running out of air by moving through rooms. also if you really wanted to stop camping there are better ways to do it than to tie it to a nonsense mechanic like the op questioned, selective life support?

[Tenno29543]

3 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

You've completely missed the mark. last i checked people still camp. current survival is pro camping in the first place. i was able to (numerous times) come close to running out of air by moving through rooms. also if you really wanted to stop camping there are better ways to do it than to tie it to a nonsense mechanic like the op questioned, selective life support?

You clearly  did not understand what i am trying to say, i didn't say anything about people camping and playing, i am talking about if life support is removed, people could just camp somewhere that the enemy can't reach and set up a macro then go afk for hours without ever touching the controls and get rewards. life support is supposed to make you kill the foes for extra air

Edited August 7, 2016 by BigBlackCook

[EinheriarJudith]

Just now, BigBlackCook said:

You clearly  did not understand what i am trying to say, i didn't say anything about people camping and playing, i am talking about if life support is removed, people could just camp somewhere that the enemy can't reach and set up a macro then go afk for hours without ever touching the controls and get rewards

are you reading what you are writing? you ARE talking about camping and also there is a mechanic in the game that prevents players from camping in high places. 

[(XBOX)TeenyRagtag]

No I get what you are saying tho. I mean if there was no life support and it just went on how long you could survive. People could easily cheese, but I guess there needs to be way to make the survival process more active requiring players to not to camp as much.

[lihimsidhe]

Umm wow... I didn't think anyone cared about this thread outside of the initial posters so imagine my surprise to see a few people continuing the Mission 2.0 discussion!  Now onto the responses.

On 8/2/2016 at 2:45 PM, Daggerpaw1 said:

The main reason I don't play Vindictus much at all anymore is because all the missions take too long to be rewarded with nothing, and I feel like adding more complex mechanics to boss battles would just turn WF boss battle nodes into the same thing.

I hear you loud and clear.  To that point I can't stand Kayla De Thuum's boss experience because we have to do something so utterly arbitrary to get her to come out by shooting those spinning discs while dealing with rollerballs.  So utterly unfun and pointless.  

Under the current model a player can expect to grind a boss about x times before they get the y drops they need.  To get y from x takes about z time.

How would you feel about y and z being about the same but the only difference is x?  As in the player will be spending less time doing x because each boss run is not only more challenging but more rewarding.  Less time will be spent forming parties and recruiting multiple grinds.

In Missions 1.0 let's say the average player grinds a boss 10 times to get all the parts they want.  It takes about 20 minutes to get that done.  They get 10 warframe bp's, and 10 chances at a rare drop.  A lot of this time is spent on the Liset in recruit chat, waiting for people to do last minute arsenal changes... the list goes on and on.

In Misssions 2.0 I'm seeing the boss encounters taking about 10 - 15 minutes per run.  However, defeating the boss gives every player 10 rng'ed warframe bp drops and 10 chances to get a rare drop in one go.

For the players that want to do one quick boss run and get the last part they need if rng is good to them, yes this process would take longer than Missions 1.0.  Also for the players who don't want the bosses to be an actual challenge this doesn't sound good.  To mostly everyone else though?  I feel not only would this give Assassinations more sense to them but less time would be spent overall in the Liset trying to form/keep a party together.  And bosses might actually feel like bosses instead of a random mob with a custom skin and high hp.

Thoughts?

[lihimsidhe]

On 8/3/2016 at 3:46 AM, (XB1)TeenyRagtag said:

Survival

I completely agree with you on the fact that survival needs more ways to keep you interested as for suggestions on how to do that. I have none...

My idea for survival was to add anti-scaling objectives.  What this would translate into is objectives that would appear in mission every 5 minutes that have 1 minute to complete them.  If these objectives are failed, then new enemy spawns will be the current enemy levels + x where x is a worrisome amount (like 10 or 20 levels).  I'm thinking the objectives can be hacking to represent us keeping entry doors shut, scrambling communications, etc.  The anti scaling objectives can be anything though.  What are your thoughts on this suggestion?

On 8/3/2016 at 3:46 AM, (XB1)TeenyRagtag said:

Excavation

Your suggestions for Excavation missions is spot on. I find no fault in your reasoning and it makes more sense than the current excavation missions. Especially the chance of planet of planet resources dropping from drill. That would increase the incentive to do those missions.

Thanks man!  Hey I'll take the smiles where I can get them!  :)

On 8/3/2016 at 3:46 AM, (XB1)TeenyRagtag said:

Exterminate

I cringe at the fact of killing more than 180 enemies so killing anywhere close to 500 or 1000 is a serious put off for me. However i do agree that extermination missions can be rather bland. My suggestion is that there could be a mini boss that pops up in exterminate missions every once awhile, The mini boss wouldn't be that hard but has the possibility of dropping rare planet resources,  gold r5 cores, keys, or we could have Oberon parts drop from these mini bosses. I think this type of extermination plays better in the assassination mission you proposed since those missions should be more intricate.

Exterminates with a chance mini bosses.  I like this idea.  Expect it to be added to the OP crediting you with the suggestion.  As for the higher count exterminates, I suppose the best way is to offer up as many non super high count exterminates as ones with super high count.  That way I can go get lost in an Exterminate for an hour if I so wish and you can still do quick runs.

On 8/3/2016 at 3:46 AM, (XB1)TeenyRagtag said:

Capture

I've always found capture missions extremely bland and boring. You literally can go in and capture the target in a matter of secs if you bring a warframe that will take out the target quickly. So in my opinion we should get rid of the palm teleport and do something else. I suggest instead of teleporting, we handcuff the target and the squad member that handcuffed the target, basically has to escort him and while escorting him. They can only use their secondary and have limited movements like not being able to bullet jump  or roll. This would require your teammates to guard you so you can safely get to the target to extraction and while this is happening. There should be more enemies popping up because it's only logical that they want to keep the target from being taken away by the Tenno.  

The OP already hinted at this by being able carry and throw capture targets.  However, I like your idea because what if the capture target isn't something that can or should be carried by Warframes?  I'm definitely not for anything gets rid of bullet jumping though because that is the heart of this game for me.  It's just a matter of what target would fit into the category of not being able to be carried?  Maybe enemies that can't be knocked out?  Please let's discuss this further.

On 8/3/2016 at 3:46 AM, (XB1)TeenyRagtag said:

Mobile Defense

I always felt that mobile defense was a misleading name for that mission type. It's basically just a defense mission with more than one defense target. I know you are being mobile by moving from target to target, but it's not really a mobile defense. Honestly they should just replace all the mobile defense missions with the hijack missions and take out the shield powered vehicle aspect. That would basically make the mission feel more like a mobile defense than the way it currently is now. 

I agree.  Mobile defense is just defense in three different locations.  That's all it is.  Hijack is much more appropriate for the mobile defense descriptor.  Digging into my own military background I did find a word that conveys hijack in a better light: convoy.

Specifically, "a ship, fleet, group of vehicles, etc., accompanied by a protecting escort."

In these missions we have to ensure that x things get to y location.  As long as the x things aren't things our Warframes can pick up and carry that helps this make sense.  Also if we are to protect a convoy that is us stealing something from a faction (such as the fomorian cores in hijack missions) that explains why our convoys would be short distances; the nearest safe extraction point that wouldn't result in a OHKO from a compound's built in defenses.

Also the word Escort would work just as well as convoy.  Bottom line is mobile defense, as a term, needs to go and be absorbed into defense proper.  Sometimes you're defending one thing at one location.  Sometimes you're defending multiple things at multiple locations.  It's all defense.  Convoys and escorts would still be mobile defending in a technical sense but in this thread we are trying to streamline the missions hence this little rant. 

[lihimsidhe]

On 8/6/2016 at 9:11 PM, BigBlackCook said:

You clearly  did not understand what i am trying to say, i didn't say anything about people camping and playing, i am talking about if life support is removed, people could just camp somewhere that the enemy can't reach and set up a macro then go afk for hours without ever touching the controls and get rewards. life support is supposed to make you kill the foes for extra air

You are aware that camping exists now, correct?  In the most successful survival runs I've done we have went a full 60 minutes without activating a life support tower whatsoever.  So your afk/macro argument is still possible within the current system.  Also every long haul survival I've done involves camping.  The Hallway Heroes reach their limit at about 20 - 30 minutes and it's at that point where camping seems like a practical, viable, successful alternative.  And it is 9/10.

Whether a player camps, aggros, or sets up macros is their choice.  I don't have the statistics handy to back up claims on the percentage of players who use macros or how camping is ruining Warframe.  What I do know is that selective atmosphere and the Lotus teleporting in towers that offer 30 seconds of air makes absolutely no damn sense at all.  Not even one bit.  So even if you are an anti-camper that is worried about macro players, what is a sensible and logical suggestion to the ridiculous oxygen system?