► Nekros post-Devstream #78 ◄ "SotD will still have problems"

[Burnthesteak87]

From the last Devstream we know, DE aims to change Desecrate and Shadows of the Dead.
While the changes on Desecrate are legit and fine, those on Shadows of the Dead doesn't seem to have a correct aim.

Let me explain myself.

Announced CHANGES:

Quote

► Number of  Shadows of the Dead will be capped at 7, but each unit is stronger.
► Enemies resurrection will prioritize souls stored of stronger ones.
► Recasting SotD will heal existing Shadows and replenish the number up to 7.
► Quality of life changes about the casting time, it will be related to the number of Shadows summoned.
► SotD won't be affected by Power Duration anymore.

OBSERVATIONS:
Now, while all of this sounds really nice and a fresh breeze into Nekros gameplay, I feel the real problems about SoTD aren't being nailed.
The main problem was the control of Shadows. If you played Nekros with maxed Strenght, you could notice that their Killing Potential was pretty scarce, and this because of the AI.
No matter how much damage they can deal, all they could do was killing small units or finishing heavily injured enemies. They rarely focus on prioritized targets. And often stay into cover without doing real harm.
So in the end the best SoTD utility was the Shadows number to misdirect enemy fire on them.
Consequences: By reducing their number, this utility gets damaged. Not considering that also Shield of Shadows will suffer after this.

Another point to remember is that SoTD wasn't summoning Eximus units or Rathuum units*(PPS).

About the Modding, it will be interesting, Natural Talent won't be a "must have" anymore, probably, and this will open up a slot.
With Power Duration gone Nekros will all be about Power Strenght and Efficency (even if with just a pair of Duration mods, it wasn't that bad).

Feedback / Suggestions:
All I've been suggesting all these years is this:
Making Soul Punch drive the aggro/attention of Shadows to a location or a specific enemy, so they'll start swarming the area and attacking enemies inside it.
Then their killing potential will be worth investing in.
This is even more essential since their number will be reduced.

If this isn't possible, then let it be an Aoe field domain around Nekros. Or terrified targets. Or use the Mark/Checkpoint mechanic.

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About Desecrate I'd also like to share this idea:
I feel it should have more synergy with the whole kit and Nekros' theme (manipulator of souls, possess the battlefield, Death its playground...), by acting as a cathalizer for SotD.

► Despoil is now baseline. Desecrate costs Vitality instead than Energy. (Inaros has Vitality costing skills, why Nekros can't have it too?)
► Desecrate won't roll loot tables anymore. This is now a Healing and Energy utility tool.
► Give Desecrate Synergy:
     ► Every corpse successfully desecrated: Buffs Shadows of the Dead increasing stacking 5% movespeed  and attack speed;
     ► or Prolongs Shadows duration by 0,5 second;
     ► or Prolongs Terrify duration by 0,5 second on nearby terrified enemies;
     ► or Gives Nekros +X power Strength. Max Cap +60%  (Extending the cap to 4 more shadows).

This can be realized also through new Aument Mods.
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 ■ PS:
If their number will be capped, let's remember this change with a bit of nostalgia. PICTURE.
NOTE: For lazy people: the 26 Shadows cap have been reached with a 190% Str build and the proper Fissure's Corruption buff effect -which I pointed out in the picture-

Spoiler

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 ■ ■ *PPS:-        -        -        -        -        -        -        -        -        -        -        -        -        -        -        -        -        -        -        -        -        -        -        -        -        -
■ ■ ■ TL DR ■ ■ ■
New changes are fine, but touching Shadows number damages its real utility (enemy fire misidrection) and the killing potential.

Quote

..a big problem is the lack of control over Shadows.

No matter what the damage multiplier they get, by their AI the damage is randomic and unfocused, resulting in mostly no kills in mid-to-high level missions.
They just end up being "moving Decoys" that once and then are able to kill a low Hp target.

For Sinergy, it would be great if Shadows would focusfire a declared target, and Soul Punch should mark their target, driving their attention.

 

Edited August 7, 2016 by Burnthesteak87

[Dragon-V0942]

I am personally crying over this update to SOTD like a little baby, because I have a huge soft spot for necromancers that can have a small army.
Now this is being taken away all for the sake of "performance" I feel dead inside, this is going to result in the loss of my favorite frame, the one I have more fun playing with than any other. And worse...  I might just stop playing Warframe altogether.
I enjoy playing as Nekros for that rush of being in the middle of my own small army of minions, no other warframe can do this.

I personally want them to keep SOTD as it is, no changes.  Just remove the particle effects on each one of them to resolve the "performance issues" that they are complaining about.

On 8/6/2016 at 11:20 AM, Knight_Ex said:

Its funny, I did some digging and the found there are certain particle effects and graphic options you can turn down a bit and have no problems with the shield of shadows with up to 20 enemies, we even took two Nekros and had 33 enemies on screen, not counting the non summons and had no issues, this was with the PC I have at work that has about 7 year old hardware, it wouldn't be an issue to add a toggle that turns off particle effects directly instead of just redoing the ability, what annoyed me more was the fact they said PC and console issues, no this was not a PC issue, a PC user could easily manage this, this was a console limitation and Ive seen this before in other games, popular franchise being "adjusted" to cater to console users.....In anycase I'm probably gonna call it quits, too much salt, too many changes and focus towards catering to newbies and ignoring vets.

If this change goes through, I won't feel like a necromancer any more, instead I'll once again feel like a weak Nekros that's not playing by the loot meta.
But I doubt shouting louder is gonna match against the many voices that are already complaining about this.
Just...  Please DE, don't DO THIS to SOTD!  All you have to do is get rid of the particle effects and just probably do something to reduce the resources they take if you feel like that they really chug up the system, NOT THIS!
Let me keep my 26 minions!

Edited August 7, 2016 by MicSet

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

2 minutes ago, MicSet said:

I am personally crying over this update to SOTD like a little baby, because I have a huge soft spot for necromancers that can have a small army.
Now this is being taken away all for the sake of "performance" I feel dead inside, this is going to result in the loss of my favorite frame, the one I have more fun playing with than any other. And worse...  I might just stop playing Warframe altogether.
I enjoy playing as Nekros for that rush of being in the middle of my own small army of minions, no other warframe can do this.

I personally want them to keep SOTD as it is, no changes.  Just remove the particle effects on each one of them to resolve the "performance issues" that they are complaining about.
If this change goes through, I won't feel like a necromancer any more, instead I'll once again feel like a weak Nekros that's not playing by the loot meta.
But I doubt shouting louder is gonna match against the many voices that are already complaining about this.
Just...  Please DE, don't DO THIS to SOTD!  All you have to do is get rid of the particle effects and just probably do something to reduce the resources they take if you feel like that they really chug up the system, NOT THIS!
Let me keep my 26 minions!

I never used Nekros, but I'll surely miss hiding out in my buddie's big army. 

[Burnthesteak87]

5 hours ago, MicSet said:

-snip-

As I wrote, there still  are options to make it Viable, let's not become desperate so early (and after all, it's just a game).

We have to share feedback about Shadows Control.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Burnthesteak87

[Guest]

With so few shadows, SoS augment will need to be reworked, and shadow AI will REALLY need to be reworked in order to compensate for the total lack of meat-shielding that this will create.  Pretty much everything the OP said is spot-on accurate. 

Edited August 7, 2016 by Guest
Removed antagonism.

[Thebel]

Good bye 90% damage reduction, I'll miss you....

[DSpite]

A "small army" is not 27 shadows. No MMO lets you summon 27 units to fight with.

No, I don't want to end up in a 3 Nekros team with 78 Shadows in Green/Blue/Red simply because an update made them more powerful to use, and left the high count in, so everyone is now playing one and spamming.

They will be hitting harder and be tougher, so I don't see what the problem is.

I had a player ask me to come in here in comment, stating that "if I agree with the changes then I'm agreeing with DE "nerfing" my favorite Frame in the future" to which I say to DE "go right ahead". My current killing power with the Frames I have already feels way out of proportion anyway, able to wipe the Solar Map like a lawnmower over grass, only hitting slight problems when the "scaling" - which is not linear - starts hitting 3-4 times the toughness of regular Level 30-40 enemies, which is around level 65+.

Basically, until we actually get a full enemy unit overhaul re-balanced around the fact we now have Primed Mods on weapons and that can even randomly set of AoE, 99% of the Alerts on the Star Chart are able to be done without even using powers, as everything dies from a single bullet.

I want ALL enemies at level 30 to be a threat, as it implies that they have similar combat training to ours, otherwise the work "level" means nothing, but right now, anything with even a slight AoE will let me wipe entire groups of them other then say, a Bombard or a Heavy Gunner, which - gasp! - might take 3 shots.

It's not a "gunfight" if by spamming a weapon I can clear entire corridors, I'm instead playing Dungeon Defenders.

 

[Burnthesteak87]

3 hours ago, DSpite said:

A "small army" is not 27 shadows. No MMO lets you summon 27 units to fight with.

No, I don't want to end up in a 3 Nekros team with 78 Shadows in Green/Blue/Red simply because an update made them more powerful to use, and left the high count in, so everyone is now playing one and spamming.

They will be hitting harder and be tougher, so I don't see what the problem is.

I had a player ask me to come in here in comment, stating that "if I agree with the changes then I'm agreeing with DE "nerfing" my favorite Frame in the future" to which I say to DE "go right ahead". My current killing power with the Frames I have already feels way out of proportion anyway, able to wipe the Solar Map like a lawnmower over grass, only hitting slight problems when the "scaling" - which is not linear - starts hitting 3-4 times the toughness of regular Level 30-40 enemies, which is around level 65+.

Basically, until we actually get a full enemy unit overhaul re-balanced around the fact we now have Primed Mods on weapons and that can even randomly set of AoE, 99% of the Alerts on the Star Chart are able to be done without even using powers, as everything dies from a single bullet.

I want ALL enemies at level 30 to be a threat, as it implies that they have similar combat training to ours, otherwise the work "level" means nothing, but right now, anything with even a slight AoE will let me wipe entire groups of them other then say, a Bombard or a Heavy Gunner, which - gasp! - might take 3 shots.

It's not a "gunfight" if by spamming a weapon I can clear entire corridors, I'm instead playing Dungeon Defenders.

 

The problem is clearly explained both in the post and in the TL:DR.

26 Shadows is allowed ONLY by the Corruption from Void Fissures. The standard cap is around 13-16 by sacrifying Duration and Efficency.
I never said that reducing the number was bad, but there must be other changes (like giving control over them) to make it viable.
Don't exaggerate please, there will never be so many Nekros together, because there aren't enough enemies for everyone to keep up the max number of Shadows summoned.

Spoiler

(Also, as you wouldn't like to see around those many Shadows, I cant' stand looking around all those Symulor vortexes, this is personal opinion, it isn't an argument that would make a speech more solid)

Give Nekros a try before than giving feedback on it, please.

Also, yes, I totally agree, a big problem is Enemy Scaling and game balancing, but SotD peculiar problem isn't directly related to it. 
That's an offtopic, please keep it at bay, elseway it's going to denaturalize the topic's real focus.
Here we talk about Nekros SotD changes, not Enemy Scaling and overall game balance.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Burnthesteak87

[Burnthesteak87]

1 hour ago, Thebel said:

Good bye 90% damage reduction, I'll miss you....

I thought that maybe this may represent a mindful nerf, since they worked hard to remove Immortality from Hysteria, Snowglobe and Blessing.
I'm not really countrary to this since it gives an opportunity to opponents to kill you in certain situations, raising a bit the difficulty.
Maybe it's legit, since you won't have anymore those 3 seconds of recasting SotD which was the real problem for Shield of Shadows.
Let's see how it will be.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Burnthesteak87

[BlackCoMerc]

The best thing you can do at this point if you truly, deeply feel Nekros will be underwhelming or even broken: don't buy the prime access.

Seriously, feedback is great. It really is. But the best and most honest feedback any company will ever receive, is feedback regarding when their customers do and don't open their wallets.

This isn't hating on DE. It's not salt. If you feel Nekros is enjoyable and the PA is a good value for your money, by all means buy it. I'm not judging you. Enjoy it. By all means.

All I'm saying is that we can complain all day about things we buy. But chances are good that if we keep paying money for them...the company making them will perceive that as our thinking the product is good enough already.

 

[Denninja]

7 hours ago, DSpite said:

A "small army" is not 27 shadows. No MMO lets you summon 27 units to fight with.

I just want to share this from Path of Exile.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Easily over 80 minions with Dominating Blow, an ability near identical to SotD. Kill enemy, resurrect enemy as temporary ally.

Differences being the summon is instant/individual and it works on special versions of enemies. Serious cluster****, once I broke 120 minion count and went full slideshow.

Biggest complaints were the minions not lasting very long, the hit on FPS and complaints of party members.

Less minion count for SotD would be great as long as they're at least as strong as the army before and if their duration isn't limited.

[DSpite]

10 minutes ago, Denninja said:

I just want to share this from Path of Exile.

  Hide contents

  Reveal hidden contents

Easily over 80 minions with Dominating Blow, an ability near identical to SotD. Kill enemy, resurrect enemy as temporary ally.

Differences being the summon is instant/individual and it works on special versions of enemies. Serious cluster****, once I broke 120 minion count and went full slideshow.

Biggest complaints were the minions not lasting very long, the hit on FPS and complaints of party members.

Less minion count for SotD would be great as long as they're at least as strong as the army before and if their duration isn't limited.

That's not a summon. Might as well tell me that Nyx or Loki get a small army they can mind controls/rad proc enemy units. If we are going to start nit picking over words, what I implied was was "not even MMO's really let you summon massive armies". Also, PoE is NOT an MMO, it's an action RPG. If an MMO is made tomorrow that let you do it, it still does not necessarily mean it's instantly a good thing.

The example I made was meant to convey the fact that Warframe is FAR, FAR removed from such games, and "army summoning" is not something that we should be aiming at.

I keep coming across posts with "stop nerfing my favorite Frame" when the entire point of a game like this is to switch Frames as needed, so ALL Frames need to fall in line. I don't care if ALL Frames are made much weaker, because we don't seem to have too much difficulty killing level 100+ enemies now anyway with even the "weakest" of them when built properly.

All Frames need to be made solo viable at enemy units level 30-40, after that, it's perfectly fine to need more specialized and unusual builds that need an ENTIRE team to work, and that have some players dedicated to kill, and others to support, and I don't see Nekros as a front line combat unit, so "mini army" should not be a "must have". People are simply requesting it because they have gotten used to it, same as people with Exaulted Blade are getting used to it, and I personally think it's OP, and Excalibur just even happens to be my favorite Frame, so shock horror, I'm requesting a nerf to my fav Frame for the sake of better balance.

[Denninja]

1 minute ago, DSpite said:

That's not a summon. Might as well tell me that Nyx or Loki get a small army they can mind controls/rad proc enemy units. If we are going to start nit picking over words, what I implied was was "not even MMO's really let you summon massive armies". Also, PoE is NOT an MMO, it's an action RPG. If an MMO is made tomorrow that let you do it, it still does not necessarily mean it's instantly a good thing.

The example I made was meant to convey the fact that Warframe is FAR, FAR removed from such games, and "army summoning" is not something that we should be aiming at.

I keep coming across posts with "stop nerfing my favorite Frame" when the entire point of a game like this is to switch Frames as needed, so ALL Frames need to fall in line. I don't care if ALL Frames are made much weaker, because we don't seem to have too much difficulty killing level 100+ enemies now anyway with even the "weakest" of them when built properly.

All Frames need to be made solo viable at enemy units level 30-40, after that, it's perfectly fine to need more specialized and unusual builds that need an ENTIRE team to work, and that have some players dedicated to kill, and others to support, and I don't see Nekros as a front line combat unit, so "mini army" should not be a "must have". People are simply requesting it because they have gotten used to it, same as people with Exaulted Blade are getting used to it, and I personally think it's OP, and Excalibur just even happens to be my favorite Frame, so shock horror, I'm requesting a nerf to my fav Frame for the sake of better balance.

Sorry, I didn't mention an MMO anywhere, should have snipped a different part of your quote so it's not misleading. Focusing on "game with loads of minions" not genre.

To clarify, I posted similarities of a WF type of ARPG and reasons why the necro army should be toned down.

[Eldritchsqueaker]

I think a rework of shield of shadows is all that's needed. With shadows being healable and staying up all the time it could provide more constant damage reduction while being easier to manage. Say 10% instead of 5% per shadow and that puts it almost on par with Trinity's blessing.

[SquireAngel]

I have to say, I think DE is still missing the mark on how to make SOTD strong. As it sits, the pathing/targetting AI for 'your' units is much the same as a radiation proc, with you simply removed as a possible target. This makes it very similar to Nyx's Chaos ability, but lacks the wide range in exchange for safe targetting. The logic for your minions should be much like the kubrow/kavat; where they hunker on the edge of your current location, getting kills but never truly leaving the edge of your peripheral. You can see this in full effect fairly well on on the Uranus 'submersible' defense mission, using the current SotD on one defense location, and then needing to recast it when you move to another, as the units will more so wander aimlessly for targets, rather than follow you. 

[Chipputer]

On 8/6/2016 at 3:53 AM, Burnthesteak87 said:

The main problem was the control of Shadows.

Until they allow us to control our companion's targets (as in telling my Kubrow or Kavat to focus on a specific enemy), I don't see what makes you think they'd allow Nekros to suddenly control how his shadows are targeting. This isn't something they need to do for Nekros. This is something they need to do for companion abilities in general (including allowing Oberon to force his controlled animals to target specific enemies).

[Burnthesteak87]

10 hours ago, Chipputer said:

Until they allow us to control our companion's targets (as in telling my Kubrow or Kavat to focus on a specific enemy), I don't see what makes you think they'd allow Nekros to suddenly control how his shadows are targeting. This isn't something they need to do for Nekros. This is something they need to do for companion abilities in general (including allowing Oberon to force his controlled animals to target specific enemies).

Probably so you didn't read carefully the OP.

I'll repeat again. Comparing this mechanic to others will take it out of its contest, denaturalizing it. That's 'going offtopic'.
This is a matter of Skillset, Ability kit, Synergy between Powers.

It doesn't have anything to do with Companions or other Warframe's terrible passives.

And if you would play Nekros, you would understand the point.

[Vali]

I don't think the framrate issues are due to the particle effects of Shadows, rather its the enemy count which causes the game to suffer. 

 

On 8/7/2016 at 7:30 PM, Burnthesteak87 said:

I thought that maybe this may represent a mindful nerf, since they worked hard to remove Immortality from Hysteria, Snowglobe and Blessing.
I'm not really countrary to this since it gives an opportunity to opponents to kill you in certain situations, raising a bit the difficulty.
Maybe it's legit, since you won't have anymore those 3 seconds of recasting SotD which was the real problem for Shield of Shadows.
Let's see how it will be.

They did say they will tweak the augment mods to accommodate for the changes, so we can't really say if its a nerf yet. 

 

[(XBOX)Shining caliber]

When I heard that the number of shadows was being capped I feel like I should just get rid of my Nekros now. I liked Having an army of undead to fight for me.....Not a damn tiny hitsquad because apparently it causes problems with some people's PC/console.

Edited August 9, 2016 by (XB1)Shining caliber

[BattledOne]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Shining caliber said:

When I heard that the number of shadows was being capped I feel like I should just get rid of my Nekros now. I liked Having an army of undead to fight for me.....Not a damn tiny hitsquad because apparently it causes problems with some people's PC/console.

You can still paly strategy games or necromancer in diablo 2 for that. Having this many minions just doesn't fit in such a game, companions and spectre options are pushing it way too hard already.

[Death_Master_]

On 06.08.2016 at 11:53 AM, Burnthesteak87 said:

Desecrate won't roll loot tables anymore. This is now a Healing and Energy utility tool.

So Nekros will be useless if this will be implemented!

Why most of people do have Nekros at all? Because they need loot!

[Inarticulate]

On 8/6/2016 at 3:53 AM, Burnthesteak87 said:

Consequences: By reducing their number, this utility gets damaged. Not considering that also Shield of Shadows will suffer after this.

1. I believe it was mentioned that Shield of Shadows would be modified to accommodate this change.
2. The only change that would need to be made is to make Shield of Shadows scale with power strength. This would make it mathematically identical (if you ignore the fact that you can't have a fraction of a shadow) to the current effect.

[(XBOX)AuS1010]

heres my thoughts on this.

emphasis on SoTD. < IMO this will fix the whole shadows cant kill problem. this is a wall of text U WERE WARNED

 

[BulletsforTeeth]

7 hours ago, Death_Master_ said:

So Nekros will be useless if this will be implemented!

Why most of people do have Nekros at all? Because they need loot!

I really hope this is a joke... I really do.

[Death_Master_]

2 hours ago, BulletsforTeeth said:

I really hope this is a joke... I really do.

No, it isn't a joke. I seen Excalibur Prime more often than "shadows" build of Nekros, all other times it was loot Nekros.

So main role for Nekros is loot miner and he is the best in that right now.

We currently have just 3 lootframes and two of them get only one additional loot table run.

Nekros has three loot table runs making him useful even if he only boosts loot and does nothing else for all the mission(defense/survival/m-defense/low-lvl excavation).

All abilities of Nekros to me are for looting(first to revive fallen tenno(yeah, someone should kill mobs!), second to scare off mobs so they don't annoy the looting Nekros, third is "loot them all", and last is to rise bodies to distract enemies from looting Nekros).