Equinox Metamorphosis Suggestions

[lyravega]

Here are two suggestions, with the latter being the interesting one.

• The form bonuses no longer diminish over time, they are permanent but they give only half the bonus (half of their maximum bonus). Swapping forms doubles the bonuses for the same duration.
• The augment, Duality is changed. If you have Duality equipped, you will enter the mission with your other half. Using Metamorphosis instead allows you to control your other half; you take control of your other half while leaving the current one for the AI. If your other half gets down, it needs to be revived. If your other half dies, you cannot use metamorphosis till you respawn. If you get down, you can still use Metamorphosis to take control of your other half. If the half you control dies, and other half is alive, you automatically take control of your other half. You can no longer get double bonus, the duration buff is gone with the augment.

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

15 minutes ago, lyravega said:

Here are two suggestions, with the latter being the interesting one.

• The form bonuses no longer diminish over time, they are permanent but they give only half the bonus (half of their maximum bonus). Swapping forms doubles the bonuses for the same duration.
• The augment, Duality is changed. If you have Duality equipped, you will enter the mission with your other half. Using Metamorphosis instead allows you to control your other half; you take control of your other half while leaving the current one for the AI. If your other half gets down, it needs to be revived. If your other half dies, you cannot use metamorphosis till you respawn. If you get down, you can still use Metamorphosis to take control of your other half. If the half you control dies, and other half is alive, you automatically take control of your other half. You can no longer get double bonus, the duration buff is gone with the augment.

The bonus decay encourages form switching more, and adds a slightly better dynamic to it. Changing the Duality to that would make it incredibly tedious to use in endgame, and may even be detrimental. I'd rather Duality have heavily buffed duration, or not use duration at all.

[gluih]

Having to worry about your other half, so you can actually use it, would be really annoying. It would probably be better than the current version tho. Having to switch often, doesn't really work all that well.

I really just want the stacks from her 4 and 3 (with the augment) to carry over to the other form.

[NinjaZeku]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

The bonus decay encourages form switching more

Except her last two abilities harshly discourage doing so.

1 hour ago, gluih said:

I really just want the stacks from her 4 and 3 (with the augment) to carry over to the other form.

This, so much this.

Having gone through the literal pain of finally building up your Augment'd Pacify to max,
why would you ever want to switch forms?

If on the other hand you could e.g. keep buffing the Squad with Provoke while healing them with Mend,
or in general switch forms as needed even "just" for the temp buff, that'd be not least simply a lot more fun :D

[Eldritchsqueaker]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

The bonus decay encourages form switching more, and adds a slightly better dynamic to it. Changing the Duality to that would make it incredibly tedious to use in endgame, and may even be detrimental. I'd rather Duality have heavily buffed duration, or not use duration at all.

Decaying bonuses aren't the right way to encourage switching, a better way I think is having some minor CC effect go off when you switch, short ranged blind when switching to day or radial knockdown when switching to night. Something to that effect and having effects we built up while in one form go inactive instead of wiping progress like with the peaceful provocation augment.

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

1 hour ago, Eldritchkitty said:

Decaying bonuses aren't the right way to encourage switching, a better way I think is having some minor CC effect go off when you switch, short ranged blind when switching to day or radial knockdown when switching to night. Something to that effect and having effects we built up while in one form go inactive instead of wiping progress like with the peaceful provocation augment.

Yeah, I actually think Push and Pull should be a PVE augment. That would be awesome. I definitely see why people want Equinox's bonuses to be kept on switch, but that mildy takes away from her theme of being 2 different warframes that work together without interaction.

What most seem to not realize is her abilities have good synergy with each other. As I've said before (not in this thread), her Rest, Metamorphosis, Maim, finisher combo is a good example of that. With Covert Lethality you can use that for infinitely scaling AOE damage. Without Covert Lethality, you still get that heavy finisher damage, which is boosted by your switch to day form. Rage can amplify the damage of the finisher and Maim  when needed.

The only things I've found that discourage switching are her cast times, and Peaceful Provocation. I almost always use Natural Talent on Equinox for more reasons than just form switching. That's not to say that a 25% boost isn't wanted, but may not be necessary. (I may get to testing that eventually, but not now. I don't think it would be OK for her to require a specific mod to serve her purpose though.) In the case of Peaceful Provocation, it's actually quite the brilliant mod. As an innate effect it would be extremely counterintuitive, but it's nearly perfect as it is now, I think. Equinox, the warframe that fights with some reliance on switching forms, can have each of her forms operate more independently. (How much she relies on switching varies extremely, but it can maximize her potential.)

[tnccs215]

11 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

The bonus decay encourages form switching more, and adds a slightly better dynamic to it.

The bonus decay would only encourage switching if switching was fluid in the first place. However, with powers that need to be reactivated every time you switch (instead of changing with the frame), powers that require build up (and are deactivated on Metamorphosis), a frankly useless or disregardable half of a kit, and Metamorphosis buffs that aren't that great to begin with; it ends up being more of a mockery than a bonus.

I do agree with doubled duality duration though.

6 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

What most seem to not realize is her abilities have good synergy with each other. As I've said before (not in this thread), her Rest, Metamorphosis, Maim, finisher combo is a good example of that. With Covert Lethality you can use that for infinitely scaling AOE damage. Without Covert Lethality, you still get that heavy finisher damage, which is boosted by your switch to day form. Rage can amplify the damage of the finisher and Maim  when needed.

The only things I've found that discourage switching are her cast times, and Peaceful Provocation. I almost always use Natural Talent on Equinox for more reasons than just form switching. That's not to say that a 25% boost isn't wanted, but may not be necessary. (I may get to testing that eventually, but not now. I don't think it would be OK for her to require a specific mod to serve her purpose though.) In the case of Peaceful Provocation, it's actually quite the brilliant mod. As an innate effect it would be extremely counterintuitive, but it's nearly perfect as it is now, I think. Equinox, the warframe that fights with some reliance on switching forms, can have each of her forms operate more independently. (How much she relies on switching varies extremely, but it can maximize her potential.)

Not really. Rest&Rage's Range was only buffed as a band-aid fix for her overall lackluster kit, quite a while ago. And, quite honestly, immobilizing any enemies in such a radius for such a long time is more cheese than anything.

Everyone knows about her "synergy" between Rest and Maim. What people complain is how that's the only thing she can do. Provoke, while nice, is passable due to being a small buff and an even smaller active range, Pacify is downright awful, and Mend is simply not worth the casting time-- better to just equip life strike.

Adding insult to injury, Peaceful Provocation requires a ton of build-up. This would be fine, if you were exchanging some dynamism for some power, but you are exchanging all the dynamism for making an ability not useless. Not only is it a band-aid augment, it's a band-aid augment that intensifies her already clunky mechanics to unbearable levels.

I'm sorry if I disagree, but I would actually prefer for Rage, Provoke, Pacify and Mend to be something worthwhile in the first place, and for her not to be reliant on her most cheesie abilities (Rest, and Maim-- though Maim is only "borderline cheesie") to be vaguely good.

(And don't come to me with the argument that it's justifiable that her powers are lackluster because she has two forms. She only has 3 powers per form, one for them obviously "1 material". Saying that its ok for each of her forms to be the equivalent of half a frame is like saying its Ok for Oberon to only be able to use half her kit once at a time)

You do not have to defend with teeth and nails everything you like jus because you like it. Criticism is good. And regardless of whether there are good things or not, ignoring the fact that she needs heavy QoL changes and that half her kit is useless or irrelevant is not constructive. At all.

Edited August 10, 2016 by tnccs215

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

3 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

The bonus decay would only encourage switching if switching was fluid in the first place. However, with powers that need to be reactivated every time you switch (instead of changing with the frame), powers that require build up (and are deactivated on Metamorphosis), a frankly useless or disregardable half of a kit, and Metamorphosis buffs that aren't that great to begin with; it ends up being more of a mockery than a bonus.

I do agree with doubled duality duration though.

Not really. Rest&Rage's Range was only buffed as a band-aid fix for her overall lackluster kit, quite a while ago. And, quite honestly, immobilizing any enemies in such a radius for such a long time is more cheese than anything.

Everyone knows about her "synergy" between Rest and Maim. What people complain is how that's the only thing she can do. Provoke, while nice, is passable due to being a small buff and an even smaller active range, Pacify is downright awful, and Mend is simply not worth the casting time-- better to just equip life strike.

Adding insult to injury, Peaceful Provocation requires a ton of build-up. This would be fine, if you were exchanging some dynamism for some power, but you are exchanging all the dynamism for making an ability not useless. Not only is it a band-aid augment, it's a band-aid augment that intensifies her already clunky mechanics to unbearable levels.

I'm sorry if I disagree, but I would actually prefer for Rage, Provoke, Pacify and Mend to be something worthwhile in the first place, and for her not to be reliant on her most cheesie abilities (Rest, and Maim-- though Maim is only "borderline cheesie") to be vaguely good.

(And don't come to me with the argument that it's justifiable that her powers are lackluster because she has two forms. She only has 3 powers per form, one for them obviously "1 material". Saying that its ok for each of her forms to be the equivalent of half a frame is like saying its Ok for Oberon to only be able to use half her kit once at a time)

You do not have to defend with teeth and nails everything you like jus because you like it. Criticism is good. And regardless of whether there are good things or not, ignoring the fact that she needs heavy QoL changes and that half her kit is useless or irrelevant is not constructive. At all.

All of her abilities are highly useful though. Metamorphisis, allowsmhe to acess her other half plus buffs. Rest, for obvious reasons. Rage, though it may be her worst ability, damage boosts are nice, especially with Rest or Maim. (I'd like it to be a bit more potent.) Pacify, basically an EHP boost, which improves with less range. Great for shotgun or melee usage. Provoke, good for obvious reasons. Mend, though the personal healing isn't reaon enough to use it, it's a good team healer. Being able to deactivate energy drains in Night form is useful too. Maim, good for obvious reasons. The supposed fact that she has useless or bad abilities is completely false.

[tnccs215]

26 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

All of her abilities are highly useful though. Metamorphisis, allowsmhe to acess her other half plus buffs. Rest, for obvious reasons. Rage, though it may be her worst ability, damage boosts are nice, especially with Rest or Maim. (I'd like it to be a bit more potent.) Pacify, basically an EHP boost, which improves with less range. Great for shotgun or melee usage. Provoke, good for obvious reasons. Mend, though the personal healing isn't reaon enough to use it, it's a good team healer. Being able to deactivate energy drains in Night form is useful too. Maim, good for obvious reasons. The supposed fact that she has useless or bad abilities is completely false.

How often do you use her? Like seriously, how often? Because my personal experience which, modesty aside, is pretty extensive, goes against that. 

I mean, I challenge you: go to any mission without using Maim, Rest, nor peaceful provocation.

As I said in another thread, if she was well designed, she'd be subpar. If, on the other side, she's dependent on those abilities, she's worthless.

Unfortunately, the second is the truth.

(Also, saying that metamorphosis works because it allows you to change form is like saying any frame works because it allows you to play. not to mention how ability deactivation on metamorphosis screws a lot.)

 

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

4 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

How often do you use her? Like seriously, how often? Because my personal experience which, modesty aside, is pretty extensive, goes against that. 

I mean, I challenge you: go to any mission without using Maim, Rest, nor peaceful provocation.

As I said in another thread, if she was well designed, she'd be subpar. If, on the other side, she's dependent on those abilities, she's worthless.

Unfortunately, the second is the truth.

(Also, saying that metamorphosis works because it allows you to change form is like saying any frame works because it allows you to play. not to mention how ability deactivation on metamorphosis screws a lot.)

 

Asking me to do that is like asking me to play as Limbo without Rift Walk or Cataclysm. (Though that challenge does seem doable.) I've used Equinox quite often once I got her, and she was basically my main in between the announcement of the Limbo rework, and me obtaining Oberon.

[tnccs215]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Asking me to do that is like asking me to play as Limbo without Rift Walk or Cataclysm. (Though that challenge does seem doable.) I've used Equinox quite often once I got her, and she was basically my main in between the announcement of the Limbo rework, and me obtaining Oberon.

Oh no, rift walk is for Limbo what metamorphosis is for Equinox. her staple, gimmicky ability with which she simply doesn't work.

Asking this is like asking to play old Saryn without Miasma.

That is, asking you to play, not without the abilities that center her playstyle and whose whole kit augments and is augmented by, but the abilities that are so cheesie that have to carry her around; because the rest is, indeed, simply not good enough.

The fact that you even considered comparing Rest(!)-- a general CC ability that is not only cheesy, but also a forth of Ivara's 1-- with Riftwalk  just proves how she's so poorly executed you consider what should be another ability in her kit to be her fundamental ability.

Also, I chose the two cheesy abilities cause she has two forms.

What I asked you was the same as asking you to play Mesa with PeaceMaker, Valkyr without Hystera, Limbo without cataclysm (yes I agree with that one), Chroma without Vex armor, Ash withou Bladestorm, Excalibur without Exalted Blade, etc.

If the frame is vaguely well build-- like some of the above mentioned are-- the frame will become subpar.

If, on the other hand, the frame relies on this non-unique (unlike metamorphosis) powers-- like, say, old Mag relied on Polarize, old saryn relied on Miasma, etc--- than the frame is, trully, a press__2 win.

Which, unfortunately, she is. Provoke is passable, Pacify is irrelevant, Rage needs Rest to be vaguely worth it, Life strike is better in every way than Mend, and all this is wrapped with a staple ability that forces you to recast it all over again if you use it. Also, build ups, on a frame that will arbitrarily deactivate your powers if you want to use other powers. 

Call me salty, but this is wasted potential, only held together by the stickiness of her cheese.

Edited August 10, 2016 by tnccs215

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

56 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Oh no, rift walk is for Limbo what metamorphosis is for Equinox. her staple, gimmicky ability with which she simply doesn't work.

Asking this is like asking to play old Saryn without Miasma.

That is, asking you to play, not without the abilities that center her playstyle and whose whole kit augments and is augmented by, but the abilities that are so cheesie that have to carry her around; because the rest is, indeed, simply not good enough.

The fact that you even considered comparing Rest(!)-- a general CC ability that is not only cheesy, but also a forth of Ivara's 1-- with Riftwalk  just proves how she's so poorly executed you consider what should be another ability in her kit to be her fundamental ability.

Also, I chose the two cheesy abilities cause she has two forms.

What I asked you was the same as asking you to play Mesa with PeaceMaker, Valkyr without Hystera, Limbo without cataclysm (yes I agree with that one), Chroma without Vex armor, Ash withou Bladestorm, Excalibur without Exalted Blade, etc.

If the frame is vaguely well build-- like some of the above mentioned are-- the frame will become subpar.

If, on the other hand, the frame relies on this non-unique (unlike metamorphosis) powers-- like, say, old Mag relied on Polarize, old saryn relied on Miasma, etc--- than the frame is, trully, a press__2 win.

Which, unfortunately, she is. Provoke is passable, Pacify is irrelevant, Rage needs Rest to be vaguely worth it, Life strike is better in every way than Mend, and all this is wrapped with a staple ability that forces you to recast it all over again if you use it. Also, build ups, on a frame that will arbitrarily deactivate your powers if you want to use other powers. 

Call me salty, but this is wasted potential, only held together by the stickiness of her cheese.

I just went 40 minutes in T4 survival without Rest, Maim or Peaceful Provocation. I'll post the video clip later. It may be bad quality, but it'll prove that I did it.

[MagPrime]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I just went 40 minutes in T4 survival without Rest, Maim or Peaceful Provocation. I'll post the video clip later. It may be bad quality, but it'll prove that I did it.

Doesn't really matter if that's not something the average player can also do.

I main Mag Prime and have managed to do some insane things with her, but that doesn't mean she's in a good place and doesn't need further changes.

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

51 minutes ago, Noamuth said:

Doesn't really matter if that's not something the average player can also do.

I main Mag Prime and have managed to do some insane things with her, but that doesn't mean she's in a good place and doesn't need further changes.

Then what can show that what you all think about her isn't true. If you give me a task that can be completed in reasonable amount of time, I will attempt to do it. (I'm only uploading one clip, FYI, so if the task itself doesn't prove enough, it's not my fault.)

[MagPrime]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Then what can show that what you all think about her isn't true. If you give me a task that can be completed in reasonable amount of time, I will attempt to do it. (I'm only uploading one clip, FYI, so if the task itself doesn't prove enough, it's not my fault.)

"I can do it, so it's fine."

Yeah, no. 

It just shows that you are able to work around the flaws, not that the 'frame is in a good place.

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

11 minutes ago, Noamuth said:

"I can do it, so it's fine."

Yeah, no. 

It just shows that you are able to work around the flaws, not that the 'frame is in a good place.

So what can show that the frame is in a good place?

[MagPrime]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

So what can show that the frame is in a good place?

Average players being able to achieve the same content as us.

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

Just now, Noamuth said:

Average players being able to achieve the same content as us.

 I disagree. Warframe's skill requirement is why I like it so much. I hate using warframes like Loki, because there is such little skill requirement. If being easy to use makes a warframe well-designed, I don't like well-designed warframes.

[tnccs215]

8 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I just went 40 minutes in T4 survival without Rest, Maim or Peaceful Provocation. I'll post the video clip later. It may be bad quality, but it'll prove that I did it.

Oh good. I eagerly await to see it, I trully do.

Oh, and by the way, did you went solo? what were your weapons? and what was your focus school?

[tnccs215]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

 I disagree. Warframe's skill requirement is why I like it so much. I hate using warframes like Loki, because there is such little skill requirement. If being easy to use makes a warframe well-designed, I don't like well-designed warframes.

Hate to dissapoint you, but Equinox isnt hard. Sorry.

[Antiphoton]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

So what can show that the frame is in a good place?

I'd say "nothing".

Any frame can get to 40mins on a T4 survival without using powers. That is no proof.

The point is not that she is underpowered, the point is that the only thing that makes her useful prevents her from using the rest of her kit. That many of her abilities have outdated mechanics. That some some parts of her design encourage you to switch forms often, but doing that will cancel the small effects that make her barely useful in challenging content. That she is currently the Warframe version of the Dark Split Sword: it is supposed to be two different things between which you can choose in real time (and is advertised like that), but in reality can only be "half a thing", locked for the entire mission (yeah, you can switch, but it punishes you).

Let there be a nerf to the cheese if needed, but she needs real synergy between both forms.

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

32 minutes ago, Antiphoton said:

I'd say "nothing".

Any frame can get to 40mins on a T4 survival without using powers. That is no proof.

The point is not that she is underpowered, the point is that the only thing that makes her useful prevents her from using the rest of her kit. That many of her abilities have outdated mechanics. That some some parts of her design encourage you to switch forms often, but doing that will cancel the small effects that make her barely useful in challenging content. That she is currently the Warframe version of the Dark Split Sword: it is supposed to be two different things between which you can choose in real time (and is advertised like that), but in reality can only be "half a thing", locked for the entire mission (yeah, you can switch, but it punishes you).

Let there be a nerf to the cheese if needed, but she needs real synergy between both forms.

But she does have real synergy. Not using her 2 strongest abilities certainly doesn't show that though. Taking away Rest and Maim takes away ALL of her CC. Any half decent player knows how important CC is on most warframes.

[tnccs215]

15 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

But she does have real synergy. Not using her 2 strongest abilities certainly doesn't show that though. Taking away Rest and Maim takes away ALL of her CC. Any half decent player knows how important CC is on most warframes.

Oh please, one thing is CC, another is cheese.

Also where's that video?

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

20 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Oh please, one thing is CC, another is cheese.

Also where's that video?

If it's really not gonna help with the debate, why should I bother, especially since it's currently tedious for me? I'd just be doing myself a disservice for somebody I don't respect. In any case, the main thing I think Equinox needs to highlight her synergy is a boost to casting speed. Efficiency mods, duration mods, and Natural Talent are currently necessties to use her in such a way.

[tnccs215]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

If it's really not gonna help with the debate, why should I bother, especially since it's currently tedious for me? I'd just be doing myself a disservice for somebody I don't respect. In any case, the main thing I think Equinox needs to highlight her synergy is a boost to casting speed. Efficiency mods, duration mods, and Natural Talent are currently necessties to use her in such a way.

I never said it was unhelpful for the debate. Quite the contrary, I would love to see how you play, and I believe you'd love to show me how I am utterly wrong.

But if you continue to insist on not presenting the video I'll simply have to admit that you were lying.

Which really doesn't help you at all.

Not that showing a video means a free pass of course, but it's better than nothing...

And an increase to casting speed would only benefit her powers that least need help (except for Mend, but that needs much more than extra casting speed to be worthwhile).