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Specters of the Rail: U2.1 - Nekros Changes


[DE]Danielle
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Desecrate energy consumption now very high, even on max efficiency, cant make thing dead if their loot isnt able to looted via desecrate

And also can you increase the number? It hard to have 7 while your augment only 6% increment

and the degeneration rate is way too fast for an ultimate power

Edited by TheFalseEclipse
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Alright, here is what I was able to muster 

SOUL PUNCH - Stayed the same, I personally wanted soul punch to do something with other abilites and have a bit more CC such as knokcing down nearby enemies, maybe heal nearby shadows? 

TERRIFY - It's ok, I would slightly increase the reduction to 25% and duration to 30 or get rid of duration completely since nekros is not very duration based, maybe increase the range to 25m? with POSSIBLE synergy to buff shadows and you, it is good but I think it needs a little something to spice it up

DESECRATE - Hmmm, I like it, Preferbly, 5 base energy cost  since nekros is a squishy frame, I would like to have the chance to make a health and energy orb have a slightly higher chance to appear

SHADOWS OF THE DEAD - So the health drain, heres the thing, many nekros masters out there use Shield of shadows, we use the extra health they get as the damage mitigation,with the base health they have as being "there health" and the extra health being the mitigation. With the drain, it complicates thing's and kills them quicker. Aditonally, in sorties when there are eximus everywere, we can-not make shadows very easliy so we need eximus units to protect us. We can-not have eximus but NYX CAN. I also think a 10 man army would be a good compromise. If for some odd reason, the health drain has to stay(Which I'm very much opposed), and reduce the health decay to 0.5 per sec and make the recast cost 5 energy per shadow instead of 100

Edited by Wolfnrun
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3 minutes ago, CrudShuzKong said:

Shadows should get teleported to you on each recast of SotD. It gets very costly if you dont run despoil or stop desecrating form time to time, but it works.

Teleporting would help, and I do run despoil, but that won't change how much less useful Nekros is now. I would run Nekros on sorties, and being able to spawn a army to take on the enemies you're swarmed with, has been a great help, and a lot of fun. Right now, he can barely keep a excavator safe on his own.... I can only imagine how much worse that is with npcs with guns...       

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On the abilities screen while in the arsenal for SotD it shows Green for more hp drain per second, and red for less. I'm pretty sure it is supposed to be the other way around (you want less HP drain per second). d:

My Feedback:

Desecrate: ZOMG thnx so much. So good. How did we play Nekros for the past 2-3 years without this @_@

SotD: Lowest i got my drain to was 1.18 without Fleeting expertise on. And my build has pretty no range so SotD is my only ability. 75 mana cast every 50 seconds or so for 7 shadows. compared to ~16 shadows for over a minute idk : /  .

Just messed around in the simulacrum and this is my conclusion. Your units can kill weak units pretty easily, but they're absolute garbage against any heavier unit. I watched them fight and basically what happens is 5 of your units will take like a full minute to kill 1 heavy unit. And unless you heal them they might lose the fight 5 v 1 because they will get knocked down constantly. Not worth using unless you want to have some fun.

The Hyekka Masters and Drahg guys summon dogs and cats that still look as if they were summoned by the enemy. Could we get them to summon animals in our energy color plz?

Edited by xXRiomaXx
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I don't like the changes to Desecrate. It forcefully relinquishes my control over the ability. I don't know how other people use Nekros, but I don't constantly Desecrate. Depending on the build, I may even sometimes wait for more enemies to die in succession, to get a package deal. But with Despoil, I'm losing health regardless with much less management of when it happens. I had no problem Desecrating every time I needed to. Did any other Nekros players want it changed?

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Can we have Desecrate being single use like before, and toggle when pressing and holding 3? When playing survivals, specially solo, you usually don't have time to desecrate 2+ before being killed...

Never mind, it doesn't work like before, you don't get stuck desecrating anymore!

Edited by Rodox2
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1 minute ago, Elathas said:

Teleporting would help, and I do run despoil, but that won't change how much less useful Nekros is now. I would run Nekros on sorties, and being able to spawn a army to take on the enemies you're swarmed with, has been a great help, and a lot of fun. Right now, he can barely keep a excavator safe on his own.... I can only imagine how much worse that is with npcs with guns...

I think you misunderstand, the teleport on recast is already a thing (not mentioned in patch notes though).

The Shadows are now fewer but also they draw more aggro to compensate (don't think enough though right now).

I gotta say though that against any faction other than infested nekros always had a hard time keeping objectives safe...

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1 hour ago, Kaokasalis said:

I'm disappointed that there was no changes to Soul Punch. Its a very lackluster ability with little to no damage and the knockdown is hardly worth to call utility.

Also a bit disappointed that shadows will still decay over time. Sure we can heal them but its stupid that we cant just have them without the decay. Frosts snowglobe dont decay either.

This

sadly this is a half baked rework, really disappointed since i was waiting for years for a proper nekros rework

Edited by RAZORLIGHT
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Desecrate: quite a fair number of bodies are disappearing now with nothing dropped. I could understand the "health orb or extra loot" tradeoff being something players should bear in mind when managing efficiency, but nothing dropping from desecrated corpses feels really bad.

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Right off the bat, love the new SoTD! However, finding it a little difficult to keep track of my shadows health, I understand you don't want to overcrowd the UI, but having their health bars easily visible, maybe under the other players health bars, would be a very nice change I think.

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I am a Nekros veteran, trust me.

I made my own build and I used to run it very effectively. This build allowed me to have a tanky nekros with shield of shadows without compromising desecrate ability. It worked very well, and it depended on desecrate to get health orbs thus energy to make 4 work. It had a good duration (almost 1 minute if I recall correctly). I maxed my equilibrium just to use it on him.
 

to25snQ.jpg

 

After this change, I need more strength to make it work. So I replaced Natural Talent with Intensify. There are some pretty evident problems with this rework.
 

  1. Shadows of the Dead is almost unusable. The casting delay is the same, and it only gives 7 shadows. The strength on the ability wasn't just on Shields of the Dead. The plain number of shadows was very effective at drawing enemy fire and protecting the team or the objective. With less shadows, this isn't the case anymore.
  2. Shadows of the Dead still has duration. And it's worse than before. I used to get almost a minute of many shadows, now I get 30 seconds or so of less shadows, if I'm lucky (due to health drain). This is a very harsh nerf on a niche ability.
  3. Despoil has better efficiency now, but desecrate drops less loot and orbs. Orbs weren't just good for Nekros, they were good for teammates too.
  4. The casting animation is still slow and horrible.

 

DE, I was considering buying Nekros Prime Access because it's one of my favorite frames. I'm reconsidering it. Reworks like this only make it clear that you need a test branch or a clearer feedback with experienced users that play your game everyday.

Please fix Nekros.

Edited by gustavrsh
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unfortunately it's a downgrade on almost all aspects of the Warframe.
but i saw this coming and i don't really know what people expected

 

the mechanics for Shadows sounds neat but high Efficiency AND high Duration is required to be able to maintain Shadows for any length of time.

Desecrate is universally incredibly less effective at Support than it was before. so Nekros is simply less capable at being a Support Warframe, aside from l00t farming.
mostly due to Health Orbs being more painful to get, despite costs technically being lower in many situations.

Desecrate being a Toggle Ability is a monumental failure because you don't know when Enemies are going to die, so there's no way to know when to have it on or off. since having it off is important to save Energy/Health when your Squad is not organized appropriately to take advantage of it.

 

i'd much rather the Ability be a guaranteed Support Ability, than 'maybe i can help my team and myself, maybe nothing happens and we get f...ed'.
no other Support Ability in the game only works sometimes. previously Players compensated for the Chance to succeed due to Enemy Density and casting it many times. any by multiplying Corpses, which doesn't seem to do anything now. which means it's a mediocre Support Ability.

because i seriously doubt that Desecrate is 2-4x as likely to create Support items per Enemy than it was before.
and it 'scans' one Corpse at a time, which is excellent for a game where the TTK pace is lower than Battlefield with 4x the Enemies. good luck being a Support Warframe.

 

actually, does corpse cutting work? it worked on a different faction, perhaps it only doesn't work on some Enemies for some reason.
working on Grineer it seems, but wasn't on Infested.

1 hour ago, PsiWarp said:

If it is percentile... then I'd rather it was duration refreshed on recast instead of my Shadows weakening every second.

that's exactly what recasting does. refills their Health. but it drains at a Percentage either way.

Edited by taiiat
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I don't really see why shadows need to decay. Or at least, the decay should scale with power strength not duration, considering the augment alreayd needs power strength.

I think you could boost the health orb drop rate a bit, survivability took a significant hit.

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44 minutes ago, RAZORLIGHT said:

Shadows of the Dead: remove the health decay and the ability should be fine!

^This. Shadows are already taking a lot of damage at only 7 clones, and they die instantly against Nullifiers and the like. They don't need this handicap.

Edited by Finedaible
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8 minutes ago, CrudShuzKong said:

I think you misunderstand, the teleport on recast is already a thing (not mentioned in patch notes though).

The Shadows are now fewer but also they draw more aggro to compensate (don't think enough though right now).

I gotta say though that against any faction other than infested nekros always had a hard time keeping objectives safe...

They don't teleport (or at least in my experience) just ones that die will spawn at your side. That depends on your build I have had no problem in sorties (shrug) and he shined in MD and D missions 

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Played a couple 20 min Dark Sector Survivals with a balanced build (and Zenurik) just to get a feel for the changes.

Here are my initial impressions:

 

Desecrate:

  • Toggle is working properly: It's great not having to press 3 constantly now!
  • Once the Corpse Party gets going, it seems to expand quite fast. However,
  • Health orb generation is too inconsistent: I was constantly on a feast-or-famine state. It's very hard to sustain a Despoil build without max Efficiency without compromising survivability. It's also no longer possible to properly run a Health Conversion tank build.
  • Loot generation seems to be lower than before, but this will require a higher sample of data to confirm.

 

Shadows of the Dead:

  • As someone who was used to run with 16 Shadows, the new cap of 7 will take some adjusting but it seems to be enough to draw aggro and deal some damage.
  • Enemy type selection seems to work quite well: the shadows I got were always the strongest enemies killed. But there is some room for improvement:
  • The health drain seems a bit too punishing: even with the improved stats the Shadows die very fast when under fire from enemies. When you add the Shield of Shadows augment, their health depletes even faster.
  • To maintain a full squad alive, you need to do quick casts way too often. This results in massive energy costs.
  • Also, when recasting, some Shadows still stay away. Maybe the range required to trigger Shadow displacement is too large.

 

Suggestions:

  • Uncouple the life orb generation and the loot % and give life orbs a flat % to spawn. If life orbs aren't competing with loot drops, we'll probably get a steadier influx of Health orbs. I believe this is an important change since the most creative ways of playing Nekros (Soul Survivor/Despoil/Health Conversion) require a sustainable source of Health.
  • Give the Shadows a sort of "grace period": when damaged by enemies, their health drain will turn off for a second or two. This way the ability wil still be limited by Duration without shadows being withered down by multiple sources of damage.
  • Reduce the range required to displace your Shadows when recasting. Considering you want friends close, your enemies closer and your revived enemies even closer; 30 - 40 m is still too much.
  • Finally, Quick casts of Shadows of the Dead should cost less energy. As it stands, it's more efficient to let all your shadows die and get some new ones than to keep your squad alive. If recasts cost a fraction of the total cost based on the amount healed or just half energy, this will reward frequent recasts and Shadow maintenance.

 

Will continue testing and update if my opinion changes.

Thanks for your attention!

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After trying him out a bit I propose this:

  • Remove the health drain on Shadows (It is really hard to keep track of and it is costly to recast SotD too much).
  • Instead make their armor decay over time so they get less tanky over time until they are restored completely by a SotD recast (number of shadows and their remaining armor % shown as buffs on UI).
  • Change Desecrate so that the roll on drops works like this: If it rolls for no loot it automatically drops a health orb instead (no more empty corpses, slightly buffed health regen).
  • Icrease the Aggro the Shadows pull a bit more so they provide a bit more protection.
  • SotD recast that doesnt spawn new shadows (healing only) costs half energy (or returns half energy after cast).

All in all I really enjoyed the changes, but overall they do feel a little weak in comparison.

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15 hours ago, Neo_182 said:

carrier gets almost instantly obliterated as well.

Don't play with carrier too ...

If you use 2 health it will pickup a 25 health orb and so waste 23 health, so of course it's not viable for you.

I did some survival, interceptions and defence missions, and it was working fine for me. I am not even using despoil augment anymore or full efficiency build.

 

I really like how it changed, now it became a nice warframe to play.

BUT:

The duration on shadows is a joke ...

15 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Health orbs are no longer guaranteed drops from desecrated corpses. They are now tied in with the chance for additional loot drops.

What the ...

So instead of having a ressource, mod, amo drop we can have health ? No way ... It already not 100% drop chances anymore, it reduce even more the chance to drop something. Not everyone is playing with Nekros augment so not everyone need health orbs.

Make it that it have separate chance to drop Items and health orbs, don't put it on the same chance, i was wondering why i was not droping much things, now i know ...

Instead of having 10 ressources pack 2 mods 6 amo pack, i have 3 ressources, 1 mod, 3 amo pack and 11 health orbs, no, just no ...

 

 

Edited by clemza
Finally i don't like it ...
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1 minute ago, clemza said:

Great move, keep it up, proud of you, now time to work on zephyr and hydroid :)

hahahaha you wish, Limbo is first and Ash bladestorm too... I have been askign about zephyr every single Devstream, but the devs have completely forgotten about her. Hydroid has at least been talked about as possible rework candidate.

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