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Specters of the Rail: U2.1 - Nekros Changes


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This is not about being resistant to change.  Not all changes are good and not everyone dislikes change simply because they're resistant to it.  Some changes are just bad and not needed.

After playing around a bit with Nekros I can honestly say that the health decay of minions is a nerf...nothing more, nothing less.  It's made even worse when you factor in the 7 minion limit.  Nekros has never been an OP or meta frame (except for maybe Desecrate spam), so why nerf him?  I don't understand why DE felt this change was needed.

Please DE, revert this change.  Reducing the minion limit to 7 is a bad enough nerf, but to make them constantly lose health for no reason is adding insult to injury.

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11 minutes ago, (XB1)RAG is NAROK said:

I must confess I overreacted. After looking stuff over I did find a build that will work that will allow the Shadows to last longer, have decent power eff, still maintain a decent amount of Power range for Shield of Shadows and even run one of the Flight mods.

I apologize for exploding. I just really love Nekros.

 

I mean there are a lot of negatives to the changes so it's pretty easy to overreact. Overall I'm not very happy with all the changes.

Desecrate stuff is alright, it's another fire and forget power.

Shadows has so many bigger cons compared to pros.

Pros
Recastable

Picks best units

Heals said units

Animation can be sped up if only healing

 

Cons

Health decay (effectively makes the shadows more fragile)

Less shadows

Damage for shadows is the same as before (No increase in damage even though you have less shadows)

Max energy drain per cast even if healing

Can no longer cherry pick mobs (Think infested you end up with a team of ancients, great for defense but terrible offense)

Have to let the shadows die and then re-summon for them to rescale levels

Augment is still a base 6% damage reduction per shadow ( scales with strength but you need like >+200% to get back to 90% damage reduction)

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1 hour ago, Thebel said:

Damage for shadows is the same as before (No increase in damage even though you have less shadows)

Incorrect. I am noob

Old system @ +0% power strength is same as

100.00% Shadows health bonus
150.00% Shadows damage bonus

New system @ +0% power strength
200.00% Shadows health bonus
200.00% Shadows shield bonus
250.00% Shadows damage bonus
 
1 hour ago, Thebel said:

Augment is still a base 6% damage reduction per shadow ( scales with strength but you need like >+200% to get back to 90% damage reduction)

+114% power strength to be precise. I kinda agree

if they were to increase it to 7% then you could reach 90% damage reduction at +84% power strength which is much easier to attain with out sacrificnig other abilities. That said, its pretty easy to reach +100% power strength with little effect on other abilities
Edited by SoulOfTheHunter
I am noob
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6 minutes ago, SoulOfTheHunter said:

Incorrect.

Old system @ +0% power strength

100.00% Shadows health bonus
150.00% Shadows damage bonus

New system @ +0% power strength
200.00% Shadows health bonus
200.00% Shadows shield bonus
250.00% Shadows damage bonus

Actually you unless they changed it since this was posted. 

I don't recall there being changed to him since that. 

Edited by Thebel
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2 minutes ago, Thebel said:

Actually you unless they changed it since this was posted. 

I don't recall there being changed to him since that. 

I have only evern known it to be 100% base. Which is also what the Wiki says. I'm not sure that cahnge was every introduced but it was before my time.

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16 minutes ago, SoulOfTheHunter said:

I have only evern known it to be 100% base. Which is also what the Wiki says. I'm not sure that cahnge was every introduced but it was before my time.

The update is right here on the forums so it happened, I'm pretty certain it was 2.5x damage and 2x health because my same build is the same exact multipliers.

 

Hell even the recent update doesn't actually say the multipliers were changed at all. Just that the compensation was automatically picking better units.

Edited by Thebel
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I think the main problem is their damage/health. From what I have been told (because I'm on xbox) the health and damage the shadows deal is the same as before. Which, is odd because they said they were going to make the minions fewer but stronger to make up for it.

Maybe if they made it that primary/melee mods from the player also applied to the minions in addition to the original damage it wouldn't be so bad.

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Can we have a second 50% roll for a hp orb drop at least?

Currently, the one thing that made Nekros really unique (his ability to make hp orbs plentiful) has suffered harshly and that takes away from what makes him unique to mod with and play with.

I considered that a needless generalization for the sake of simplicity of use and I feel like it hurts the frame.

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The multipliers were not increased at all, i saw mine before and after 4.96 X damage with my power strength, 3.94 with it, new build same numbers with the shield multiplier being the same as the health, if they are going to limit the number of shadows they should remove the health drain thing and lower the cost to balance out the heavy limitations, especially considering how much it costs to cast to begin with if you have decent power strength

Edited by Shade-Nightclaw
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After playing a decent amount with new Nekros, I wanted to provide my feedback on it.

Desecrate Changes:
The way that desecrate has changed really did mean that he took a big hit on the loot generation part of the ability, and since thats the entirety of the ability in the first place, it got reduced effectiveness in favour of a huge quality of life buff. What this has led to is that people are loving the quality of life buff, but are very sad at the fact that the amount of loot has been reduced from previous desecrate, where he was super effective at doing that. Maybe I would say that the loot roll chance could be affected by power strength, capped at maybe 90% or something (it would require quite a bit of power strength to get this to a high chance), it would synergise well with most shadows builds because they need power strength to be able to function properly, plus allow those that only want Nekros to be a loot farm can spec their Nekros to give as much loot as they possibly can.

Shadows of the Dead changes:

This is a bit more complicated for me, because I am torn on several things. The health drain I do think is too much right now. When the ability was originally talked about, it was said that it was going to be not affected by duration at all, which is why I guess you balanced that out by making that it cost full energy to reheal your shadows. But then it was changed to have a drain on it, affected by duration, but kept the full energy cost to reheal. It all feels kind of conflicted, like it was supposed to be one thing, and ended up as another. One thing that the drain did end up doing was inadvertantly give the ability a bit more scaling that it wouldn't really have if you had to wait for the shadow to die by enemy fire. You wait for the drain to kill them, and recast the ability to boost your new shadows up to the current enemy level. If you want to keep the full price reheal on the ability, then remove the drain and update the enemy levels when you recast it. It still makes shadows of the dead more expensive to maintain, but it gives it the scaling that it badly needs. Personally I'd love to see the drain disappear completely and replaced with a cut priced energy cost for reheal, plus updated enemy levels, but maybe thats asking a bit too much.

Shield of the Dead augment needs a buff though. You need something like 214% power strength to get this up to its max damage reduction now, which is simply just too much. I'd put the mod up to 7 or 8% per shadow, meaning that you still need something like 165/190% power strength to get it up to max, but it doesn't totally destroy your build trying to do so.

 

I love the Nekros changes for the most part, and I've not had as much fun playing him, well ever actually. But a couple more tweaks here or there and he'd be in a perfect position.

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11 minutes ago, (XB1)RAG is NAROK said:

I think the main problem is their damage/health. From what I have been told (because I'm on xbox) the health and damage the shadows deal is the same as before. Which, is odd because they said they were going to make the minions fewer but stronger to make up for it.

Maybe if they made it that primary/melee mods from the player also applied to the minions in addition to the original damage it wouldn't be so bad.

Minions scale with slayed enemies levels and power strenght. Minions are strong enought (not much), as distraction works ok.

Core problem is that minions take damage from enemies and from health drain. So it is sums of two duration penalties.

 

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18 minutes ago, Thebel said:

The update is right here on the forums so it happened, I'm pretty certain it was 2.5x damage and 2x health because my same build is the same exact multipliers.

I may be wrong, I am basing it off what I can read. I simply don't recall numbers as high as that without being modified with power strength

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After looking over the changes AGAIN I am still not a fan. First off Power Strength helps out Shield of Shadows, yet since everyone needs to fuel power duration in order to make it so that their shadows don't die there really isn't much room (very little to none at all) to do this without losing Range.

On top of that after looking over some footage released by OriginalWickedFun the health and damage the shadows deal hasn't increased at all despite DE's statements that while we would be getting fewer shadows that they would be STRONGER. However, I don't think it counts as stronger if my Nekros build (on the xbox before the changes that are currently on the PC) has more health and damage (which is still small itself) compared to the new shadows.

---

Xbox Stats (my Nekros):

  • Damage Multiplier: 4.53
  • Health Multiplier: 3.35

Xbox Stats (with unmodded Nekros):

  • Damage Multiplier: 2.5
  • Health Multiplier: 2

PC Stats (with unmodded Nekros):

  • Damage Multiplier: 2.5
  • Health Multiplier: 2

---

When I saw the Devstream 79 I was actually excited because I was under the impression that I wouldn't need to run a Duration build. Granted this was frightening because it would mean I would have to design a different build for Nekros when I got the Prime version of it. However I did my homework and soon I was excited to have a Power Strength/Eff build planned out for him. Now I can see that that was just a big waste of time.

I can understand if you feel like health decay is needed but if your going to do that then please fix the health and damage our shadows get.

Now I hope this is addressed because for one I love this game and I LOVE playing SotD Nekros, I put a lot of hard work into mine. It is hard enough having to deal with the current SotD, please don't make it hard DE. Please don't hurt my baby. T_T

 

Edited by (XB1)RAG is NAROK
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6 minutes ago, SoulOfTheHunter said:

I may be wrong, I am basing it off what I can read. I simply don't recall numbers as high as that without being modified with power strength

I think most people are wrong. I looked at the revision history on the wiki and no one ever updated the change in January 2015. Rather there was a change but it was either worded poorly or just flat out incorrect.

The notes I linked clearly says they were changed. But if you look at the wiki history it wasn't updated. 

 

Also that guy ninja'd me basically 

Edited by Thebel
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7 minutes ago, felixsylvaris said:

Minions scale with slayed enemies levels and power strenght. Minions are strong enought (not much), as distraction works ok.

Core problem is that minions take damage from enemies and from health drain. So it is sums of two duration penalties.

 

I do agree it the health drain is pretty bad. Fact is the new changes make Nekros even harder to play. Before you just focused on Duration. Now you have to factor in just about everything, which is unfortunate as with the statement they made saying we WOULD NEED POWER DURATION implied to me that I could focus more on Power Strength and Efficiency. Sadly this isn't the case and now I am not only dreading the new update but contemplating if I really want to buy Nekros Prime Access when it comes out.

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4 minutes ago, Thebel said:

I think most people are wrong. I looked at the revision history on the wiki and no one ever updated the change in January 2015. Rather there was a change but it was either worded poorly or just flat out incorrect.

The notes I linked clearly says they were changed. But if you look at the wiki history it wasn't updated. 

I didn't go to the wiki for my information, i play Nekros' enough to have memorized the multiplier before and after the change because i used to be proud of how powerful i got him without sacraficing much stat wise, the ONLY way they are going to fix this is remove the stupid health drain thing its counter intuitive, im fine with the inital cast being max but if we have to recast to summon more or heal reduce it for secondary casts otherwise my favorite character is unuseable

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Just now, Shade-Nightclaw said:

I didn't go to the wiki for my information, i play Nekros' enough to have memorized the multiplier before and after the change because i used to be proud of how powerful i got him without sacraficing much stat wise, the ONLY way they are going to fix this is remove the stupid health drain thing its counter intuitive, im fine with the inital cast being max but if we have to recast to summon more or heal reduce it for secondary casts otherwise my favorite character is unuseable

I'm not saying you specifically but 1.5 has been thrown around enough that I need to mention it so people don't think that Shadows were actually buffed, because they were clearly not. 

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i have 262% power strength and almost a 5X multiplier,i worked hard to avoid draining anything but range since his shadows are uneffected by it, anyays my point is they cant just have it all one way, you need balance in the game , you want to limit the summons because its crippling machines? fine, but dont make a health drain because its still technically a timer, putting a healing option is essentially a band aid for it.
If they remove the health drain, and make healing costs lower or hell just remove them both and make them stronger like they said they would, i would be perfectly fine with waiting for them to die from low health to recast , or better yet,  why not recast to kill them and then let us resummon after?

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1 hour ago, SpeedOfLightPuncher said:

got the right build and then talk 

just because you need to be a little more active doesn't mean that it is a nerf 

I don't see what being active has to do with shadows now having less effective duration than before. Less duration is less duration. And less means it's a nerf. It's as simple as that.

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Reading through the thread, iv figured out that Nekros is a mess right now. It does not fit any roles now.
Not a viable loot frame anymore and shadows aren't really that much better -feels more like they are actually  weaker now overall.

Guess he will start gathering dust now like mag does.


If i want loot i can just get a pilf hydroid now, for tanking and CC there are so many other, better frames.

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