Specters of the Rail: U2.1 - Nekros Changes

[bl4ckhunter]

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

So instead of pressing 3 a lot to desecrate spam, we now press 4 a lot to ''heal shadows'' spam?

I guess that's one way of solving the Nekros desecrate problem.

Sotd is a waste of energy, you're better of spaming creeping terrify, you're going to run max range/efficiency anyways for desacrate, with a little bit of power strenght the enemies will be completely paralyzed, shield of shadows still requires a lot of duration, efficiency and a cubic ton of power strenght, by running a build for it you end up neutering terrify and desacrate even more than before so there's really no point now, specially since terrify is better damage mitigation through cc and Sotd don't really have anything going for them without the aug.

Edited August 11, 2016 by bl4ckhunter

[Heckubis]

I have seen the Masters shadow still use their abuilities like summoning friendly kubrow and kavats hopefully this was intended as part of the "strengthening"but was totaly supriesed that they left the skills intact. they still take up gunner positions on Grenier maps and hack alarms so at least they didnt mess the ai up too much

but any old duration mod makes them last

 

[Thebel]

1 hour ago, ENGINEEEEER said:

You should try it before you make a blanket judgement. He's more fun to play now but the abilities should be tweaked some. He may not be super late game viable as is but you don't need too much endgame play as it is currently. 

Also if you don't enjoy the game, move on. It's not worthwhile to make yourself unhappy. 

Thing is though if you ran a shadow build previously your gameplay didn't change much other than being able to have Desecrate running in the background for more drops, that's not really interesting for a change and with a higher upkeep cost when you have to heal them so often. For me personally it makes the overall gameplay worse because I don't care about Desecrate that much, my Nekros was forma'd to the point I couldn't actually do a Desecrate build with it. The only style that really changes is the Desecrate builds who are less efficient but now get to actually play the game, for them it's a great change in a way.

In the end after these changes, he's worse at being a loot slave and worse at drawing aggro, sure they supposedly increased the aggro to the remaining 7 but it doesn't seem that much better than when I had 20.

[bl4ckhunter]

3 minutes ago, Heckubis said:

I have seen the Masters shadow still use their abuilities like summoning friendly kubrow and kavats hopefully this was intended as part of the "strengthening"but was totaly supriesed that they left the skills intact. they still take up gunner positions on Grenier maps and hack alarms so at least they didnt mess the ai up too much

but any old duration mod makes them last

 

the point is that the ability is objectively worse than before the change

[ENGINEEEEER]

Just now, Thebel said:

Thing is though if you ran a shadow build previously your gameplay didn't change much other than being able to have Desecrate running in the background for more drops, that's not really interesting for a change and with a higher upkeep cost when you have to heal them so often. For me personally it makes the overall gameplay worse because I don't care about Desecrate that much, my Nekros was forma'd to the point I couldn't actually do a Desecrate build with it. The only style that really changes is the Desecrate builds who are less efficient but now get to actually play the game, for them it's a great change in a way.

In the end after these changes, he's worse at being a loot slave and worse at drawing aggro, sure they supposedly increased the aggro to the remaining 7 but it doesn't seem that much better than when I had 20.

I find the aggro to be much higher which is good for defense. 

Duration hasn't changed much so its not worse in that regard. Atlesstyou can re up the duration now. 

Strength needs a buff though for there only being 7. If we have exalted weapons and radial nukes, nekros shadows can be stronger. 

Desecrate is easier but less effective for loot. 

I'd still recommend you try it out before you put nekros aside. He may not be viable for hour long survivals but hes very fun in most of the game.  

[Thebel]

14 minutes ago, ENGINEEEEER said:

I find the aggro to be much higher which is good for defense. 

Duration hasn't changed much so its not worse in that regard. Atlesstyou can re up the duration now. 

Strength needs a buff though for there only being 7. If we have exalted weapons and radial nukes, nekros shadows can be stronger. 

Desecrate is easier but less effective for loot. 

I'd still recommend you try it out before you put nekros aside. He may not be viable for hour long survivals but hes very fun in most of the game.  

Duration has changed to some extent, in that all the shadow timers are no longer going to be in-synced, which is a bit of an annoyance even if i can refresh it. And each time I refresh it that time won't be consistent either depending on how much damage they are taking.The problem is that one glaring problem being health drain causes all these little annoyances that kind of stack up.

I spent plenty of time playing Nekros last night to see all the annoyances, even forma'd him to make a new build. Even if I found a build I can accept, it doesn't mean I'm happy with all these with his changes and that I find them to just be a huge nerf.

[Cmdr-A]

Though one thing I'd like to additionally add is there is not enough visual cues when desecrate is on or off, aside the ability draining your eng or health at the time. Sometimes when playing for a longer period of time I might absentmindedly have turned it on or off or fell off ledge into a place that'd reset my warframe back onto the map. As is right now as a player with some color issues myself, I have a bit of a hard time distinguishing when its on or off because from what I can tell only when I'm really really paying attention to the little icon on the bottom right only changes a very slight pitch in lightness to a slightly darker color. Its not really noticeable if you aren't paying attention to it majority of the time.

An icon on the upper right where most ability icons would pop up would be a great indication of when desecrate is on for color blind / color recognition issue players. Some people are saying that your nekros glows, but I'm also having a bit of an issue also seeing when the character is glowing, probably most likely due to my color choices which probably don't work so well together to show such.

But thats just me, these types of issues are in the minority but it does exist and every bit of help in this area does help a lot in the long run.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Cmdr-A

[-Fe-McHamm3rShot]

13 minutes ago, Cmdr-A said:

An icon on the upper right where most ability icons would pop up would be a great indication of when desecrate is on for color blind / color recognition issue players. Some people are saying that your nekros glows, but I'm also having a bit of an issue also seeing when the character is glowing, probably most likely due to my color choices which probably don't work so well together to show such.

This is a great point, I myself have some tritanopia in one of my eyes.  Which is super fun when trying to distiguish yellows and blues sometimes.  With the old syetem I would just spam the button.  (Love the new system way better).

But now I'm forced to close my right eye to see if the skil is still active, not a deal breaker by any means.  But the desecate skill icon lighting when something is being desecrated would be awesome. My 2 cents, thanks!

Edited August 11, 2016 by -Fe-McHamm3rShot

[Gurpgork]

5 hours ago, SpeedOfLightPuncher said:

got the right build and then talk 

just because you need to be a little more active doesn't mean that it is a nerf 

When the Saryn rework dropped, this was a workable argument. 

However, the good SotD builds haven't changed at all, and the fire and forget nature of the ability is just about the same, only now, we have fewer minions (with the multipliers not buffed nearly enough to compensate) and the ability decays in effectiveness the longer it's active. The only way we have to be more "active" is by pressing 4 a little more often, which is hardly an issue at all, and it's definitely not the issue. 

Edited August 11, 2016 by Gurpgork

[VanguardT-EN-]

Desecrate should only consume bodies if they drop something, because right now the body will be gone even if doesn't drop anything. And that's an unnecessary nerf in my opinion. 

[Knight_Ex]

5 hours ago, slamdanked said:

They said in the devstream that they changed it because large numbers of minions would cause framerate issues. And more than 7 and you wouldn't be able to keep track of their health.

Anyone with either a potatoe (Computer with 7+ year old hardware)  Or consoles, majority of the issues arise from consoles which runs the game poorly enough as it is, just the first of many "reworks/patches" so that it doesn't fry the console version, and ya that annoys a few people if DE is gimping both parties because one lacks the necessary tools to work correctly, additionally we can also turn down graphical settings that make those potato issues more manageable.  Be prepared for Zeph and Vauban nerfs next, those tornado and vortex's can cause issues.

[Faulcun]

Im upset about these changes mainly because all signs point to consoles as the limitation causing this decision. This is a huge problem in the entire industry where games are hurt because it must be made to fit the lowest system on the totem pole.

I dont buy consoles for a reason. I have nothing against them though either. But if I spend good money on a beast rig, I want to make use of it. If there is a limitation on a console, fix it for the console.

[lyravega]

Here is a fancy bar chart (it is below in the spoiler; link is there if you wanna make a copy of and tinker with it yourself).

I was going to bore you with text, but made a bar chart instead. Enemies have 100 health, 100 shields and 100 damage.

Spoiler

Now another bar chart below, this time enemies have 100 health, no shields, and 100 damage. With no shields, the chart draws a more grim picture.

Spoiler

Note that these charts are based on totals, not individual units. I am aware that this is a "paper calculation" (theoretical maximums with pawn units), so it doesn't reflect the in-game case, especially the theoretical max damage part. But the army total hit points will paint a similar picture. I just included damage part for lolsies. Now lets re-read this:

23 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

The number of Shadows spawned has been reduced to 7 and is no longer affected by Mods. This is a necessary change for performance on all platforms. To compensate for this, Nekros now spawns stronger Shadows prioritized by heavy unites killed with Shield multiplier and draw aggro more heavily.

Looking at the bar chart (especially the second one), I'm not seeing a proper compensation. Shield multiplier do not apply to any shadows with no shields; which means it won't apply to Grineer or Infected for example, so that's a big hit from there - nothing is compensated for units without shields. On the plus side, Corpus shadows won't be as squishy as before. If one unit is taken into consideration, while it is the same for Grineer/Infected shadows, Corpus shadows are effectively buffed with shield multiplier. But when you look at the big picture, your total army health and damage is nerfed drastically.

There are some good changes; like being able to recall the shadows, or heal them, or fill the ranks up to max (7) again, and it prioritizes heavy units. But the rest of it; 7 shadow limit and duration change (health loss per second) is too harsh. Instead of having a lot of meatbags moving around, drawing fire, now you have fewer meatbags that has the same health (and more shields if they had shields to begin with) that draw the same amount of fire. Effectively, they have less time to live unless you keep healing them.

And I've never seen someone complaining from Nekros' shadows lagging the game, so I bet this change is because of the consoles or something. Instead of "changing" a skill (without proper compensations) to make it "performance friendly", how about fixing the real issues behind it?

 

Below is the original text, so can be ignored.

Spoiler

Before Changes, every +30% Power Strength meant

Spoiler

• +2 shadows
• +0.45 to damage multiplier
• +0.3 to health multiplier

After changes, every +30% Power Strength means

Spoiler

• +0.45 to damage multiplier
• +0.3 to health multiplier
• +0.3 to shield multiplier

Lets go through some numbers to see how much of a change this was.

Below is a rough paper assumption, where enemies have 100 health, 100 shields, and 100 damage

Spoiler

100% Power Strength
Before Changes: (100 - 100)/15 = 7 shadows; 100*(1+1*100%)*7 = 1400 total health, 100*7 = 700 total shields, 100*(1+1.5*100%)*7 = 1750 total damage, 2100 total hit points
After Changes: 7 shadows; 100*(1+1*100%)*7 = 1400 total health, 100(1+1*100%)*7 = 1400 total shields, 100*(1+1.5*100%)*7 = 1750 total damage, 2800 total hit points

200% Power Strength
Before Changes: (200 - 100)/15 = 14 shadows; 100*(1+1*200%)*14 = 4200 total health, 100*14 = 1400 total shields, 100*(1+1.5*200%)*14 = 5600 total damage, 5600 total hit points
After Changes: 7 shadows; 100*(1+1*200%)*7 = 2100 total health, 100(1+1*200%)*7 = 2100 total shields, 100*(1+1.5*200%)*7 = 2800 total damage, 4200 total hit points

300% (299%) Power Strength
Before Changes: (300 - 100)/15 = 20 shadows; 100*(1+1*300%)*20 = 8000 total health, 100*20= 2000 total shields, 100*(1+1.5*300%)*20= 11000 total damage, 10000 total hit points
After Changes: 7 shadows; 100*(1+1*300%)*7 = 2800 total health, 100(1+1*300%)*7 = 2800 total shields, 100*(1+1.5*300%)*7 = 3850 total damage, 5600 total hit points

Now, lets change the assumption a tad bit; now enemies have 200 health, no shields, and 100 damage

Spoiler

100% Power Strength
Before Changes: (100 - 100)/15 = 7 shadows; 200*(1+1*100%)*7 = 2800 total health, 100*(1+1.5*100%)*7 = 1750 total damage, 2800 total hit points
After Changes: 7 shadows; 200*(1+1*100%)*7 = 2800 total health, 100*(1+1.5*100%)*7 = 1750 total damage, 2800 total hit points

200% Power Strength
Before Changes: (200 - 100)/15 = 14 shadows; 200*(1+1*200%)*14 = 8400 total health, 100*(1+1.5*200%)*14 = 5600 total damage, 8400 total hit points
After Changes: 7 shadows; 200*(1+1*200%)*7 = 4200 total health, 100*(1+1.5*200%)*7 = 2800 total damage, 4200 total hit points

300% (299%) Power Strength
Before Changes: (300 - 100)/15 = 20 shadows; 200*(1+1*300%)*20 = 16000 total health, 100*(1+1.5*300%)*20= 11000 total damage, 16000 total hit points
After Changes: 7 shadows; 200*(1+1*300%)*7 = 5600 total health, 100*(1+1.5*300%)*7 = 3850 total damage, 5600 total hit points

 

Edited August 11, 2016 by lyravega
grammar and stuff

[lyravega]

 

[(XBOX)His 1st Shadow]

Please correct me if I'm  wrong. buffs get balancing nerfs. Nekros, who wasn't OP, received QoL changes. Not buffs, yet nerfed to balance what was fine to begin with?

From what I've read:

- Shield of shadows is Now more effected by efficiency, duration, power strength AND range. 

The cap of 7 shadows gives each more weight. Range - If 1 or 2 leaves area, a lot more defense is lost than prior. Duration - before if your shadows lasted 20 seconds, they were at least full health for the full 20. Now they're half dead 10 seconds in**. Efficiency - Frequent recasting to maintain and costs full amount every time. Strength - 214% is required to hit cap. 

Generally, frames have to work against one ability to maximize another. Shadows being greatly effected by everything works against itself.

(**Suggestion: health decay- either remove or only start after expiration period. I.E. If the ability once lasted 30 seconds, after the 30 is when they should quickly begin decaying. Number for shadows and icon for decay start. Easy prior management with new recast option. Fewer shadows shouldn't have half health at 50% of the time.)

Desecrate - actually triple nerfed? 

1. They purposely lowered health orb drop percentage. I don't think they took into consideration > 2. No longer able to re roll on disappearing corpses that produce nothing. 3. Now costs more in addition to less productivity.

Am I off? I love the QoL changes, toggle desecrate and maintaining/teleporting shadows. Unneeded Nerfs concern me tho.

 

 

 

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

Have you forgotten that your shadows are potentially invincible?

[KirukaChan]

22 minutes ago, Hawk_of_the_Reborn said:

Have you forgotten that your shadows are potentially invincible?

By spamming 4 to heal them constantly?

Trinity can do that better. At least until DE finds out about this synergy and hits Trinity with the nerfbat this coming Wednesday.

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

Just now, KirukaChan said:

By spamming 4 to heal them constantly?

Trinity can do that better. At least until DE finds out about this synergy and hits Trinity with the nerfbat this coming Wednesday.

If you have a Trinity on your team, there's need for Blessing since she can cast EV to keep energy flowing... So....

[lyravega]

3 minutes ago, Hawk_of_the_Reborn said:

Have you forgotten that your shadows are potentially invincible?

By babysitting them? One change is aimed towards making Nekros "mobile" (desecrate toggle - the only good part of that change), and I welcome it. Now you are telling me to babysit 7 dudes. Nah thanks.

[KirukaChan]

21 minutes ago, Hawk_of_the_Reborn said:

If you have a Trinity on your team, there's need for Blessing since she can cast EV to keep energy flowing... So....

With Blessing, though, the Shadows are getting heals and damage reduction.

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

Just now, lyravega said:

By babysitting them? One change is aimed towards making Nekros "mobile" (desecrate toggle - the only good part of that change), and I welcome it. Now you are telling me to babysit 7 dudes. Nah thanks.

You forget that you can recast to teleport them if you don't feel like coming back to them

[lyravega]

5 minutes ago, Hawk_of_the_Reborn said:

You forget that you can recast to teleport them if you don't feel like coming back to them

Yes that's what I meant. Babysit = healing (or recalling) them.

Edited August 11, 2016 by lyravega

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

Just now, lyravega said:

Yes that's what I meant. Babysit = healing them.

Well they do have that buff going on for them. And whatever they kill is still counted towards your own 'deadpool' of new shadows, should your current ones die

[evilfluffy]

Btw when desecrate is active your whole body glows with your energy color.  If you are having an issue seeing it maybe picking a brighter variant or at least a color that stands out more in your eyes.

[-N7-Leonhart]

You are missing a very important point here. Suppose you have the next scenario:

1 unit that has 1000 HP and 100 DPS

vs

2 units that have 500 HP and 50 DPS each

At fight sight, that seems like an even match, right? WRONG. The stronger unit will wipe the weaker 2, since it can kill the first one fast and then the remaining one will only dish only half of the DPS.

That is why with fewer but stronger shadows, they don't need to make up the sum of the weaker ones. The fact that each are much tougher and won't get down in one-hit, guarantees more damage in the long run.

Edited August 11, 2016 by -BM-Leonhart