Specters of the Rail: U2.1 - Nekros Changes

[(PSN)salovel1991]

On 8/11/2016 at 0:10 PM, Hawk_of_the_Reborn said:

Have you forgotten that your shadows are potentially invincible?

Potentially invincible if you spam the ability twice as much. 

[PsychoticMarik]

Just let soul punch explode the selected shadow. As you and others have already stated.

Honestly that kinda stuff should already be a thing to begin with, but DE seem pretty content with half baked content.

 

If Nekros came out today I would expect more of him than what he is right now, and I had thought that was the purpose of reworks. I guess I was wrong.

Whats honestly depressing is that nothing we give as feedback even matters to them. As can be observed by looking through past rework topics. Our pleas fall on deaf ears with this dev team.

[xRufus7x]

3 minutes ago, Eldritchkitty said:

The drain is based on percentage isn't it?

Yes but incoming damage is mitigated by the overall health increase. 

[(PSN)salovel1991]

2 minutes ago, Eldritchkitty said:

The drain is based on percentage isn't it?

3% per second as well as damage taken from enemies. Also they did not boost the health multiplier. It is still only 2.5. 

[RealPandemonium]

Shadows are pretty tanky, especially against the damage output of enemies.  You can heal them at will, though on my pure SotD build I use Zenurik as a bandaid, so that's a problem for the long run.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

31 minutes ago, xRufus7x said:

They receive a higher health multiplier. They draw more fire then they used to. Due to the way enemies scale the health drain isn't as big of a deal as people are claiming, although the values could still use tweaking. You can now also recast to keep your shadows close giving you more control over their position and proximity to objectives and healed up. This is also a boon to people that use Shield of Shadows as it can be maintained rather than recast resulting in less down time and you don't have to worry about them wondering out of range. It is easier to keep your queue full not only because there are less shadows but because you can maintain your existing ones. Sure the shadows took a damage hit but damage was never their primary role anyways. They now provide more reliable cc and damage reduction with his augment rather than in bursts. 

You mean exactly as they did before? BETTER?

The health Decay is percentuall so scaling doesn't matter on that one.

The health multiplier is 50% weaker then the one on the build I'm using on 300%(!) Less damage. True, the health is slightly better for what it is, a ability that works on stock values but hell, it was frickin easy to reach this state. That's why I'm saying that it is worse then it was before. And please realise that less summoned enemys mean also less summoned health. 

 

That is why I am calling it worse then the compromise, you could make a basic build, somewhat focused on duration and the shadows would've been just what they are now, doing He exact same thing, attacking and pulling Aggro, just by beein on the field bc of the way Aggro works in this game (first target in range got the Aggro, same thing, more spread targets)

Difference would've just been:

Kinda guaranteed health Orbs, more shadow damage, more shadow health and more targets the damage would've been spread to

 

This is a Nerf. A definitive Nerf.

I mean I don't expect them to revert it so a recommendation from my side: what the shadows could rly use is a assist function. You shoot something? They join. Make the 100% damage per enemy useable.

 

And...there is no, absolutely no reason at all to let the shadows have anything but health. There is no point in a drain, or duration, nothing. Make them follow, make Casting soul Punch onto them stay on recast and soul Punch on enemys a priority summon and make recasting recycle anything that isn't marked with ideally marked enemys. 

 

Would result in

Better Offensive Support

Better Defensive Support

Better Casting efficiency as you loose the need to constantly manage these Lil f***ers.

AND....it would add reason for soul Punch to even exist....

Edited August 12, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[xRufus7x]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

You mean exactly as they did before? BETTER?

The health Decay is percentuall so scaling doesn't matter on that one.

The health multiplier is 50% weaker then the one on the build I'm using on 300%(!) Less damage. True, the health is slightly better for what it is, a ability that works on stock values but hell, it was frickin easy to reach this state. That's why I'm saying that it is worse then it was before. And please realise that less summoned enemys mean also less summoned health. 

 

That is why I am calling it worse then the compromise, you could make a basic build, somewhat focused on duration and the shadows would've been just what they are now, doing He exact same thing, attacking and pulling Aggro, just by beein on the field bc of the way Aggro works in this game (first target in range got the Aggro, same thing, more spread targets)

Difference would've just been:

Kinda guaranteed health Orbs, more shadow damage, more shadow health and more targets the damage would've been spread to

 

This is a Nerf. A definitive Nerf.

I mean I don't expect them to revert it so a recommendation from my side: what the shadows could rly use is a assist function. You shoot something? They join. Make the 100% damage per enemy useable.

 

And...there is no, absolutely no reason at all to let the shadows have anything but health. There is no point in a drain, or duration, nothing. Make them follow, make Casting soul Punch onto them stay on recast and soul Punch on enemys a priority summon and make recasting recycle anything that isn't marked with ideally marked enemys. 

 

Would result in

Better Offensive Support

Better Defensive Support

And better Casting efficiency as you loose the need to constantly manage these Lil f***ers.

It would also add reason to soul Punch....

Health multiplier impacts incoming damage which in a roundabout way impacts duration.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Cryostasisprotoss said:

I don't remember who but one said that maybe add that soul punch could removed one shadow but still without that how would they die if you can heal them pretty much forever

Why do you even want them to die in the first place? If people don't want to have a weak shadow, they should be able to have total control over which shadows they wish to eliminate rather than killing all of them. Moreover, dying shadows is directly detrimental to the augment build because for every shadow that disappears, your reduction instantly drops by 1/7, as I've mentioned earlier. 

[Cryostasisprotoss]

There is only one issue that keep ne on the sideof the drain and that is the question of how would your shadows die? Without drain, it could be a channelling ability? Because the shadows are almost inmortal at any level now that you can pick the strogest units.

Someone just tell me that answer and I will join the dark side.

[Cryostasisprotoss]

4 minutes ago, Madho said:

Why do you even want them to die in the first place? If people don't want to have a weak shadow, they should be able to have total control over which shadows they wish to eliminate rather than killing all of them. Moreover, dying shadows is directly detrimental to the augment build because for every shadow that disappears, your reduction instantly drops by 1/7, as I've mentioned earlier. 

Because there has to be a little downside. The shadows cannot be infinite. Tell me one ability that you use it once and it last for infinite amount of time.

Edit: now that I think about it, it is not even a downside is the cost of the ability to maintain it.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Cryostasisprotoss

[Eldritchsqueaker]

Just now, Cryostasisprotoss said:

Because there has to be a little downside. The shadows cannot be infinite. Tell me one ability that you use it once and it last for infinite amount of time.

 

Iron Skin, Warding Halo, Frost's Snow Globe, it'd add up to about the same thing. The shadows are in no way invulnerable, even if it does prioritize heavies.

[Cryostasisprotoss]

Just now, Eldritchkitty said:

Iron Skin, Warding Halo, Frost's Snow Globe, it'd add up to about the same thing. The shadows are in no way invulnerable, even if it does prioritize heavies.

Ok all of those can be eliminated pretty easily, the shadows are pretty much inmortal with the heal and there pretty tanky. Remember that you summon depending on enemy level so they will be always superior to the enemies at hand. If you make it infinite would be not ok even if it is not that op. Make a channelled ability then. That would solve the problem with the drain and you could still heal the but you would have a energy issue.

As I said if someone can tell me the answer I will join the dark side because as of now the drain is the best of all evil.

[Eldritchsqueaker]

Just now, Cryostasisprotoss said:

Ok all of those can be eliminated pretty easily, the shadows are pretty much inmortal with the heal and there pretty tanky. Remember that you summon depending on enemy level so they will be always superior to the enemies at hand. If you make it infinite would be not ok even if it is not that op. Make a channelled ability then. That would solve the problem with the drain and you could still heal the but you would have a energy issue.

As I said if someone can tell me the answer I will join the dark side because as of now the drain is the best of all evil.

You can recast a snowglobe, you can toggle Iron Skin if you have the augment, both of these skills cost less energy than Shadows of the Dead and they're both on frames with comparable energy pools.

[Gurpgork]

2 minutes ago, Eldritchkitty said:

You can recast a snowglobe, you can toggle Iron Skin if you have the augment, both of these skills cost less energy than Shadows of the Dead and they're both on frames with comparable energy pools.

Not to mention that they don't have the literal worst cast time in the game on those abilities. 

Edited August 12, 2016 by Gurpgork

[Cryostasisprotoss]

7 minutes ago, Eldritchkitty said:

You can recast a snowglobe, you can toggle Iron Skin if you have the augment, both of these skills cost less energy than Shadows of the Dead and they're both on frames with comparable energy pools.

It is as you said. Recast. If you eliminated the drain in nekros shadows they will not die. They are always above the level of your enemies. The only way to die is that the enemies start leveling up and kill your shadow and then you can recast to summon again superior shadows.

 

7 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

Not to mention they don't have the literal worst cast time in the game on those abilities. 

Yeah I wish it was a little faster. Well at least when you heal the animation is faster.I wish that it would cost less though.

 

I am not defending the drain but is the only solution I see now to make the shadows cost something.

Is the best of all evil.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Cryostasisprotoss

[Eldritchsqueaker]

1 minute ago, Cryostasisprotoss said:

It is as you said. Recast. If you eliminated the drain in nekros shadows they will not die. They are always above the level of your enemies. The only way to die is that the enemies start leveling up and kill your shadow and then you can recast to summon again superior shadows.

 

Yeah I wish it was a little faster. Well at least when you heal the animation is faster.I wish that it would cost less though.

That's.. not how it works, they're not somehow immune to damage from enemies and there's only seven of them. Compare that to how many you'll be fighting in a given mission- say a survival, they'll be extremely outnumbered and coupled with long cast times and a steep energy cost because again this is his ult mind you, the skills I'm comparing it to are the number 2 and number 3 of the frames in question, they should be weaker but they aren't. 

[Cryostasisprotoss]

Just now, Eldritchkitty said:

That's.. not how it works, they're not somehow immune to damage from enemies and there's only seven of them. Compare that to how many you'll be fighting in a given mission- say a survival, they'll be extremely outnumbered and coupled with long cast times and a steep energy cost because again this is his ult mind you, the skills I'm comparing it to are the number 2 and number 3 of the frames in question, they should be weaker but they aren't. 

They may not be inmune to damage howevsr they are much stronger. My team of bursas and nullifiers are invincible. Also those are defensive abilities in comparison to the shadows that act as a taunt, a damage mitigation with the augment and damage.

Imagine this, yes your shadows are only seven but what about you? You don't count as one. You kill almost everyone.

Think about it as a team you are there for the shadows and the shadows are there for you. It is a fast paced game you don't have to babysit them, you can fight together.

So make them last forever then. If DE ever change soul punch to kill one shadow, the drain can be eliminated. 

And it will come SOON.

[GodbladeZ]

In the devstream they said they made the minions more powerfully to compensate for the lesser amount of them. My only really complaint is that they said that duration wouldnt be needed but it is. I feel they should remove the health loss over time and nekros would be pretty close to perfect for me.

[SoulOfTheHunter]

My first major complaint with the rework. I didn't really mind the decay before, but its percentage based. Because of this there is almost zero point in buffing power strength (apart from the augments) as the rate of decay will destroy the shadows health in the same amount of time. You make them 4 times stronger and they die just as fast from decay.

So yeah, I'm jumping on the bandwagon; decay needs to go. Shadows will naturally 'decay' by damage taken from enemies so they won't be there for eternity; the method of topping them up and replacing them still makes sense. The abilities duration is then effected by the shadows health which is effected by power strength.

Edited August 13, 2016 by SoulOfTheHunter

[KingFar]

Thank you for the graphs. 

After playing Nekro for a while, both before and after the changes, Its pretty obvious your shadows are less useful then before. I've tried multiple builds you could think of, and I am happy about most of the changes, but the health decay and less damage is really making me sad. I always loved necromancers in games and its disappointing to feel like such a babysitter over an undead army commander. I feel like we got rid of one tedium only to fill it with another.

[ZoneDymo]

As a long long time Nekros player Im really pleased with these changes.

They make him 100% more useful.

But

We still have the counter co-op gameplay mechanic of Nekros having to do the killings to build his army. All kills withing xp/affinity range should count towards his ultimate.

Secondly I still feel the casting speed for this ultimate to be too slow, one can work around it but I dont understand the need for the limitation.

 

Lastly I feel the first ability needs something extra, its just rather pointless as is, maybe if you target an enemy with it he is more susceptible to status effect after that or something, anything really.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Cryostasisprotoss said:

Tell me one ability that you use it once and it last for infinite amount of time.

Snow Globe and Tectonics, both requiring no duration at all.

1 hour ago, Cryostasisprotoss said:

Edit: now that I think about it, it is not even a downside is the cost of the ability to maintain it.

Energy cost is already enough of a downside because we have to use blind rage as duration is mandatory, and fleeting expertise also cannot be modded in. I do not understand why a single ability needs so many downsides.

 

[(PSN)salovel1991]

4 minutes ago, ZoneDymo said:

As a long long time Nekros player Im really pleased with these changes.

They make him 100% more useful.

But

We still have the counter co-op gameplay mechanic of Nekros having to do the killings to build his army. All kills withing xp/affinity range should count towards his ultimate.

Secondly I still feel the casting speed for this ultimate to be too slow, one can work around it but I dont understand the need for the limitation.

 

Lastly I feel the first ability needs something extra, its just rather pointless as is, maybe if you target an enemy with it he is more susceptible to status effect after that or something, anything really.

Or upon being hit he could be dazed from his soul being attacked and be unable to attack for 5-10 seconds, effected by duration, as well as also having an AoE effect that knocks down enemies but only effects them half the duration of the ability. 

Edit: Also if they got rid of health decay on sotd we would still have two decent reasons, terrify and soul punch, to mod for some duration. 

Edited August 13, 2016 by (PS4)salovel1991

[Chipputer]

1 minute ago, Madho said:

Snow Globe and Tectonics, both requiring no duration at all.

No duration and also no decaying health.

That's important to mention.

[SoulOfTheHunter]

I would suggest that perhaps damage done by Soul Punch restores (a decent chunk of) health on summoned Shadows. If it kills the enemy then that replaces a missing Shadow if there is a space.

Edited August 13, 2016 by SoulOfTheHunter