Specters of the Rail: U2.1 - Nekros Changes

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

1 hour ago, LunarEdge7 said:

I love this build you have, and I loved how dumb I was not to try a negative efficiency build with Despoil and Equilibrium. High risk, high reward.

And major synergy with desecrating. Just a question, is the range on that build's Terrify really enough for you?

This build is really effective, there's barely any risk unless you're doing like a Nightmare Sortie-3 on solo. It revolves around close-quaters/melee to take the most advantage of his passive. I once used a negative range build, that way desecration wouldn't kill me too fast..I've played for 3 years and I just now recently got my first Equilibrium mod..sad I know. But my clan mate convinced me that this build was leagues better than mine, despite mine being not bad at all.

1 hour ago, Deathkgt said:

 

Wow just Wow.  Is your Nekros a close range melee user, hence why are you using steel charge?  And the reason why your shadows live a bit longer is because you are sacrificing your health for theirs, since you don't use shield of shadows, not to mention you're going to be prone to knockdowns when you are playing melee.  Plus you are going to have energy issues in a corpus or fissure mission (especially in solo), cuz once your minions get wiped out by nullifiers, you won't have enough energy to recast anything, since terrify cost 115 and shadows cost 155, and u only have a max energy of 188.   I have to question the validity of your build.

Um.. Equilibrium eliminates that negative efficiency issue. Also you don't have to spam 4 24/7 forever. Use it only when needed, simple. If you want an explanation, see my above quoted reply

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

21 hours ago, Deathkgt said:

Inaros have better minions than Nekros himself. 

Inaros's Sand clones aren't even worth trying to summon, try trolling harder

[JSRBeat]

@Hawk_of_the_Reborn actually used My build @Deathkgt.  ---Hawk even questioned it at first for a while too and it took days to convince him to try it out XD.  But, trust me -- I was worried when I was building it too --- but its worth it.  I would highly encourage you to just try it out.  ---Also, yes I love to Channel so I use Steel Charge with Nekros --- I always have energy so it works out oddly amazingly.

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

1 minute ago, JSRBeat said:

@Hawk_of_the_Reborn actually used My build @Deathkgt.  ---Hawk even questioned it at first for a while too and it took days to convince him to try it out XD.  But, trust me -- I was worried when I was building it too --- but its worth it.  I would highly encourage you to just try it out.  ---Also, yes I love to Channel so I use Steel Charge with Nekros --- I always have energy so it works out oddly amazingly.

Only reason why I would use Steel charge is because I really don't feel like forma'ing my Aura slot in order to have mod capacity. 

[Deathkgt]

10 minutes ago, Hawk_of_the_Reborn said:

This build is really effective, there's barely any risk unless you're doing like a Nightmare Sortie-3 on solo. It revolves around close-quaters/melee to take the most advantage of his passive. I once used a negative range build, that way desecration wouldn't kill me too fast..I've played for 3 years and I just now recently got my first Equilibrium mod..sad I know. But my clan mate convinced me that this build was leagues better than mine, despite mine being not bad at all.

Um.. Equilibrium eliminates that negative efficiency issue. Also you don't have to spam 4 24/7 forever. Use it only when needed, simple. If you want an explanation, see my above quoted reply

 

See, this is where you are confused.  You're thinking in turns of logic that equilibrium will keep you up with energy and you don't spam shadows because your shadows last maybe 20-30 secs longer.  Here's the thing, shadows AI is stupid, they don't follow you room to room.  After clearing one area, you have to move to another.  In fast pace extermination, rescue, mobile defense, capture, sabotage, etc, you won't have to ability to move your shadows because you lack the energy to cast shadows every 20 secs.  The only viable tile for your nekros build would be survival and defense and that requires you to have teammates.   And I want to give you some advice, use Energy Conversion and maybe Health Conversion.  Since you rarely cast shadows and don't use shield of shadows, the 50% increase to strength on abilities is great for your shadows.  Instead of redirection, try Health conversion.  Armor is better than shields.

[Deathkgt]

1 minute ago, Hawk_of_the_Reborn said:

Only reason why I would use Steel charge is because I really don't feel like forma'ing my Aura slot in order to have mod capacity. 

 

No, it means you don't want to RE-Forma your aura slot.  Nekros come with no polarity on aura. 

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

Just now, Deathkgt said:

 

See, this is where you are confused.  You're thinking in turns of logic that equilibrium will keep you up with energy and you don't spam shadows because your shadows last maybe 20-30 secs longer.  Here's the thing, shadows AI is stupid, they don't follow you room to room.  After clearing one area, you have to move to another.  In fast pace extermination, rescue, mobile defense, capture, sabotage, etc, you won't have to ability to move your shadows because you lack the energy to cast shadows every 20 secs.  The only viable tile for your nekros build would be survival and defense and that requires you to have teammates.   And I want to give you some advice, use Energy Conversion and maybe Health Conversion.  Since you rarely cast shadows and don't use shield of shadows, the 50% increase to strength on abilities is great for your shadows.  Instead of redirection, try Health conversion.  Armor is better than shields.

If they are far away from you, and you can cast, just recast to teleport them to you. Unless you aren't killing enemies, with Desecrate toggled on of course, then of course you won't get the needed energy/health supply. But with the way Nekros works, killing frightened masses is kinda his thing anyway.

[Deathkgt]

1 minute ago, Hawk_of_the_Reborn said:

If they are far away from you, and you can cast, just recast to teleport them to you. Unless you aren't killing enemies, with Desecrate toggled on of course, then of course you won't get the needed energy/health supply. But with the way Nekros works, killing frightened masses is kinda his thing anyway.

 

Don't want to go into anymore, you believe what you want, I for one still think its' counterproductive the way you play.

[JSRBeat]

Agree to disagree --- hahah everyone plays differently XD!  That's why warframe is a fun game guys!

 

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

9 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

1. Desecrate is far less efficient due to the new mechanic (work on the first corpse 2 secs after cast, and then 1 corpse/s, if I not mistaken), now it's almost useless to infested because their bodies disappear in 5s. So at least prolong the disappearing time of infested bodies.

2. "SotD doesn't affected by duration", as mentioned by some others, turned out to be a false statement after the update. Not really complaining on this but a false statement is a false statement.

3. Even only 1 shadow dies you have to recast SotD with full animation and full energy cost. The shadows are not very tanky so it could be a problem. I prefer having the energy cost of recast SotD to scale with number of remaining shadows.

The wiki is wrong about Desecrate, it works much faster than 1 corpse per second, a lot faster. That actually managed to count, I managed to get 36 desecrated copses in pretty much 3 seconds if not less, certainly not in 36 seconds. It's hard to test because even in the simulacrum silly things happen, like Corpses just vanishing for no reason or if I use the platform to kill enemies it just seems to bug their corpses and it doesn't desecrate them correctly. Still, you can just spawn 20 level 1 enemies or even 20 Hyekka masters, then kill them as fast as you can, count the energy you lost (make sure you don't have ES or carrier on you) and make the math to figure out how many corpses you desecrated, it will be much more than 1 per second, and that's not even the best way to test it, just best we can get.

In comparison, old Desecrate had 60% chance, per cast, turn a corpse into a health orb and only then it had 90% chance to drop additional loot. This means it had 40% chance to do nothing at all to a corpse and each corpse had their own individual roll, the roll wasn't on the cast itself, so while you did convert many corpses per cast into orbs and loot, many others wouldn't be converted at all.

You pretty much have to get a staggering amount of corpses in range for Desecrate to be as inefficient as it was before (which it wasn't super efficient either, it always wasted corpses), you pretty much need to let all enemies pile around you and then kill them all in 1 attack, which is not how farming works, enemies are killed as they come, even nukes won't let that many enemies pile up. New desecrate is indeed less energy efficient VS many corpses in range, while it's much more efficient against very little amounts of corpses.

(At this point it's not really a reply to the quote but a more detailed follow up.)

In comparison, old desecrate could need multiple casts to desecrate a single corpse (which happened all the time) as it only had 60% chance per cast, each cast was 50 energy, current will pretty much always desecrate that one target for 10 energy, this means that old desecrate would need to desecrate 5 targets per cast to be as efficient.

Now, loot efficiency, right now it does seem worse since it only has 54% to drop look, against the 90% from before (but remember, only 60% to actually desecrate the corpse), basically to have a better look at it you would need someone to be rather good at mathematics and creating scenarios to properly compare them and say if it's mathematically worse or not now.

But if you ask me why it's 54%, perhaps because DE did VERY simple math. (The following is too simple and yes, perhaps not proper, I'm not a mathematician) If you have 100 corpses and cast old desecrate once you have 60% chance to convert them, so lets say you do get 60% of the corpses converted (removing the random element), that is 60 corpses. Now you have to roll the loot chance, and it was 90% per corpse desecrated. 90% of 60 corpses is 54, so you could say you only had around 54% chance, per cast, to get loot with the old desecrate. 54% is what the current Desecrate has, Illuminati confirmed. Now on a serious note, aside of the very simple math, the difference besides that is that before you could recast on the same corpse for another 60% chance to convert it, and if it failed again you could do so until you either converted it or it despawned, and this does say that in the long run you would get more loot, but the trade here is that you can walk now.

Yes, you most likely get less loot, but you can walk now, perhaps you don't like it, and it's your right to do so. Me? I prefer to play rather than just get loot, but then again, I no longer need to farm loot that isn't rare mods and right now, only to get more plat (Sentient blessed me with that one stance when I was doing my 1 hour solo run on the moon with Nekros so I pretty much got all the mods I need for now), if I did need mats, yeah, I'd be salty, well, I wouldn't, but I'd say "just more 6% at least". A classic example of you get something, you lose something. I think I should've put that quote on bold because people will miss it, but people will still be salty anyway, BTW DE, where's my money, I need it.

Also, the wiki is wrong about Desecrate, someone needs to fix that.

 

Meanwhile I'm loving the shadows having actual agro, because if they didn't have now, even if you have 50 shadows it would be useless in certain missions where the enemy AI will either ignore or pay very little attention to normal targets and keeps rushing the target, but the new agro actually forces enemies in range to focus on the shadows and not the target, this is very noticeable in infested excavation where the infested power carrier doesn't chance players but just shoots at them as they get in range but keeps moving towards the excavator to attack it, and unless something agros them they will ignore targets and focus on the excavator, but now shadows draw their aim into them with the agro, something they wouldn't do before. It's a very powerful tool that goes unnoticed, but if people learn how to use agro in their advantage, gosh, it can get pretty ridiculous.

 

BTW, devstream isn't a place for promises, they have made statements there that people should take looks into development with a grain of salt and things are likely to change in the actual release.  Honestly, it would be idiotic to make promises, game development isn't your friend next door.

Edited September 11, 2016 by God_is_a_Cat_Girl

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

10 hours ago, (PS4)B0XMAN517 said:

I don't know if you are the op of the thread I was replying to, part of why I dislike thread merges, but I was replying to a "Save Nekros" thread and was simply stating my opinion as to why I thought we was in good shape. Really the only thing that changed his tankiness was Health Conversion synergising with the ability to desecrate passively. The op went down the list of why he/she though Nekros' skills were garbage and I respectfully disagreed, other than what op said about SoTd. It fit the thread I repied to, but not a mega-feedback thread about the his Rework.

Gotcha...

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

Great builds. I usually have my Nekros Prime equipped with an Arcane Pulse and an Arcane Energize set because they synergize so well with Nekros' mechanics and with the builds I run with him.

This is my personal favorite build that I usually bust out on Infested Survival Sorties or Datk Sector Survivals or Excavations:

And this is the build I run for the sake of tanking on Grineer maps. Corpus, maybe, but overall I feel that the Corpus are just really cheap with the unexpected one-shotting all over the place:

I usually use Zenurik as my Focus, but Naramon really makes these builds shine. Desecrate as it is now really works well with an Arcane Pulse set, and with the second build Equilibrium shines absolutely well with this Arcane set and Despol Desecrate's synergy. The reason why I have Primed Flow in these builds is just to have that boost in the expected Energy Pool. And Health Conversion is too good to not use with Nekros' playstyle.

[Malitias]

Soul Punch needs to be useful. Like really actually useful, not some gimmick.

[Matt89Connor]

Nekros power strenght: after very number of tests and sacrifice, is unseful....yes give more dmg of undeads and life ,but, the life not reduce with a number but with % so the undeads don't have the power to kill anything after lev 50 ( the level under this is not mine interest because i can go with nekros half modded if i want the problem is end game the real fun game ), if you don't belive me test in simulacrum, use 7 heavy gunners lev 100 undeas with 99% of duration and 100% of strenght vs 5 heavy gunners lev 100, result? the undeads not have mouch time to kill the nemies, because:

1- the health decay of 17% give max 45 seconds of autonomy.

2- the AI is the same then the normal enemies so they take cover they move and not shot they act as soldier but with this, they waste precius seconds for fight.

so DE will want or not understand that? the health decay is a big problem and for only heal you spend the max energy, this NEED a HELP

[shut]

5 minutes ago, Matt89Connor said:

if you don't belive me test in simulacrum, use 7 heavy gunners lev 100 undeas with 99% of duration and 100% of strenght vs 5 heavy gunners lev 100, result?

I haven't played a lot of Nekros, but this sounds like an armor scaling issue, not a "nekros minions too weak" issue.

Even if a STR-modded minion could deal 1000% the damage of an unmodded minion, they'd still be struggling to kill other level 100 Gunners within the time limit because of how stupidly strong the armor is.

[Matt89Connor]

2 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

I haven't played a lot of Nekros, but this sounds like an armor scaling issue, not a "nekros minions too weak" issue.

Even if a STR-modded minion could deal 1000% the damage of an unmodded minion, they'd still be struggling to kill other level 100 Gunners within the time limit because of how stupidly strong the armor is.

yes the armor scaling is very stupid,99,999% why? give more life insted of armor to rebalance will be a good point

[-BM-Mitz]

Str is needed mostly for the shadows augment. 

[Deathkgt]

19 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

I haven't played a lot of Nekros, but this sounds like an armor scaling issue, not a "nekros minions too weak" issue.

Even if a STR-modded minion could deal 1000% the damage of an unmodded minion, they'd still be struggling to kill other level 100 Gunners within the time limit because of how stupidly strong the armor is.

I agree, but I'm not too upset that minions can't do much damage.  It was what it was before, and what it is now.  What I'm more upset about is their crappy durability.  Back then you had more meat shields and they last longer because they have no life drain, so most minions would last the full 30 secs duration.  Now you only have 7, and while technically they have the same duration, because of life drain, combined with getting attacked, they expire faster than allotted duration. You have to keep casting shadows every 10-15 secs to keep your group afloat.  The only group minions benefit from damage would be Infested, but they were never a problem for Nekros in the beginning.   

[DEATHLOK]

I don't care for the automatic nature of Desecrate.

I don't trust it. The returns are poor at best. I feel less in control of a power that can kill me if I stop watching my health for a couple seconds (using Despoil). It shuts off when knocked down, and I can forget to start it back up.

I would rather manually spam 3 than have the current automated control. By and large, getting a few health orbs is too little compensation for using such a delicate warframe.

Please add the option for a manual trigger to Desecrate. Otherwise, Nekros is a waste.

[LunarEdge7]

My build right now (atm) is really, very close to Lei-Lei's.

It works out just fine.

On ‎11‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 3:47 AM, Deathkgt said:

After clearing one area, you have to move to another.  In fast pace extermination, rescue, mobile defense, capture, sabotage, etc, you won't have to ability to move your shadows because you lack the energy to cast shadows every 20 secs.

Then don't use it that much. An ulti is an ulti. The AI of the enemy is just like the AI of your shadows, the only difference being that you can recast to bring the ones far away back to you. Idk about you but I have no trouble recasting my SoTD in Mobile Defense though. If it's a fast paced mission, desecrate and Terrify will probably be your main abilities to be survive.

On ‎11‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 3:12 AM, Hawk_of_the_Reborn said:

Also you don't have to spam 4 24/7 forever. Use it only when needed, simple.

This.

I agree with your point that health drain along with aggro to shadows make them even harder to manage than the power duration pre-work tho.

[shut]

10 hours ago, Deathkgt said:

I agree, but I'm not too upset that minions can't do much damage.  It was what it was before, and what it is now.  What I'm more upset about is their crappy durability.  Back then you had more meat shields and they last longer because they have no life drain, so most minions would last the full 30 secs duration.  Now you only have 7, and while technically they have the same duration, because of life drain, combined with getting attacked, they expire faster than allotted duration. You have to keep casting shadows every 10-15 secs to keep your group afloat.  The only group minions benefit from damage would be Infested, but they were never a problem for Nekros in the beginning.   

Agreed.

I'm still scratching my head at why the devs said "No more Duration mods!" at the Nekros rework when the need for Duration has, if anything, increased. Keeping the old hard-duration mechanism but with "Press 4 to reset duration" added on would've worked WAY better than what we have now.

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

On 9/10/2016 at 3:50 PM, Deathkgt said:

 

No, it means you don't want to RE-Forma your aura slot.  Nekros come with no polarity on aura. 

"Re-forma" implies I've already done so. I have not done so, so therefore I don't understand the logic of this post. Also I know his Aura mod slot is natively unpolarized, hence why I said "because I really don't feel like forma'ing my Aura slot"

Edited September 13, 2016 by Hawk_of_the_Reborn

[Wolfnrun]

On 8/16/2016 at 0:39 PM, F4talFr4me said:

Oh i know i had 2 warnings in the past 2 days because of some heated arguments towards them. they dont like the truth.

Welp, I can relate to you and @Matt89Connor I'm leaving the forums after much frustration and unnecessary conflict. I'll just read and won't post since ive been discouraged. There's no use. Struggle continues guys, thanks to all the kind people on the forums despite all this nonsense. One to many pages and no change to anything in general. Maybe one day, things will change. Bye 

[Deathkgt]

11 hours ago, Hawk_of_the_Reborn said:

"Re-forma" implies I've already done so. I have not done so, so therefore I don't understand the logic of this post. Also I know his Aura mod slot is natively unpolarized, hence why I said "because I really don't feel like forma'ing my Aura slot"

"Only reason why I would use Steel charge is because I really don't feel like forma'ing my Aura slot in order to have mod capacity."  - your original quote

Ummm, you forma your aura slot already.  You've changed it from an unpolarized to a vazarin, so you could get the +18 to mod capacity. So YES, it means you have already done so on your aura slot.  I just emphasize that you don't want to Forma the aura slot again.  What part of that you don't understand?   

O, btw, nice of you to take 3 days to reply, it seems you have an issue letting things go.

I thought I ended this conversation with you, but it seems you want to keep this going.  I'm going to stop replying to you, this forum is about Nekros feedback, not about your builds.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Deathkgt

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

3 hours ago, Deathkgt said:

"Only reason why I would use Steel charge is because I really don't feel like forma'ing my Aura slot in order to have mod capacity."  - your original quote

Ummm, you forma your aura slot already.  You've changed it from an unpolarized to a vazarin, so you could get the +18 to mod capacity. So YES, it means you have already done so on your aura slot.  I just emphasize that you don't want to Forma the aura slot again.  What part of that you don't understand?   

O, btw, nice of you to take 3 days to reply, it seems you have an issue letting things go.

I thought I ended this conversation with you, but it seems you want to keep this going.  I'm going to stop replying to you, this forum is about Nekros feedback, not about your builds.

That's not my build, it's my friend's build. 

" @Hawk_of_the_Reborn actually used My build @Deathkgt.  ---Hawk even questioned it at first for a while too and it took days to convince him to try it out XD.  But, trust me -- I was worried when I was building it too --- but its worth it.  I would highly encourage you to just try it out.  ---Also, yes I love to Channel so I use Steel Charge with Nekros --- I always have energy so it works out oddly amazingly. " As @JSRBeat said on page 73 of this thread.


Also yea, you're right. But I was trying to show those who think Nekros sux now because "omg I can't blow up your potato PC with my zillions of shadows" argument. 


The rework isn't a nerf, nor a "buff". It's just made him easier to play with and understand his ROLE as a Warframe. As well as having getting rid of some of the "spam *insert number here* to win"

Edited September 13, 2016 by Hawk_of_the_Reborn