Jump to content
Temporary sub-forum for Update 30: Call of the Tempestarii ×

When Titania can fly freely, why Zephyr can't?


Recommended Posts

Zephyr can fly, you just need to kind of cripple her turbulence build and build for negative duration and max efficiency. The irony is that she makes a better flying frame than Titania still as she can actually move faster than running speed, and with the right weapons can do a hell of a lot more destruction than Titania can. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Esorono said:

Zephyr can fly, you just need to kind of cripple her turbulence build and build for negative duration and max efficiency. The irony is that she makes a better flying frame than Titania still as she can actually move faster than running speed, and with the right weapons can do a hell of a lot more destruction than Titania can. 

Easy there. I feel some "non-flying" resentment right there, from a Zephyr Main, armed with a 45% usage Angstrom rocket pistol, who probably what, likes to rain down death from above?

Zephyr "does not fly" anymore then Valkyr can "fly" as long as she times her Ripline perfectly between objects.

Flight - in the terminology of Warframe - involves an actual self-contained mechanic that mimics being constantly airborne. "Flight" in general is defined as just "moving through the air", so otherwise, double-jumping, bullet jumping, and a ton of abilities are Warframe "flight".

Titana ULT is "Archwing Mode". THAT is (Warframe) flight. Zephyr has "ability assisted jumping". That's it.

If you want to get nit-picky with Warfarme lore terminolgy:

"Zephyr propels herself with a blast of energy"

"Titania shrinks down to a fraction of her original size, becoming a flying pixie. In this form, Titania permanently remains in mid-air, using the original Archwing control mechanics to move around the battlefield"

Zephyr will never "fly".

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, DSpite said:

Easy there. I feel some "non-flying" resentment right there, from a Zephyr Main, armed with a 45% usage Angstrom rocket pistol, who probably what, likes to rain down death from above?

Zephyr "does not fly" anymore then Valkyr can "fly" as long as she times her Ripline perfectly between objects.

Flight - in the terminology of Warframe - involves an actual self-contained mechanic that mimics being constantly airborne. "Flight" in general is defined as just "moving through the air", so otherwise, double-jumping, bullet jumping, and a ton of abilities are Warframe "flight".

Titana ULT is "Archwing Mode". THAT is (Warframe) flight. Zephyr has "ability assisted jumping". That's it.

If you want to get nit-picky with Warfarme lore terminolgy:

"Zephyr propels herself with a blast of energy"

"Titania shrinks down to a fraction of her original size, becoming a flying pixie. In this form, Titania permanently remains in mid-air, using the original Archwing control mechanics to move around the battlefield"

Zephyr will never "fly".

 

No, I am actually serious when I say Zephyr is better at utilizing flight than Titania. Unlike %$# she has three skills that revolve around her being and utilizing her being in the air. Titania is a CC frame with a flight skill tacked on the end, Zephyr is an aerial mobility frame with a floaty CC tacked on the end. Honestly it looks like they somehow swapped ultimates.

Meanwhile Titania just has a buff and two control powers which aren't exactly amazing or synergistic to flying. And her CC's make it so that one mob is invincible and unable to be killed, which is why a lot of people hate Ashes and Limbos. And the other one makes mobs float away, and ragdolls them when it, which annoys anyone not %$# as well. Tribute is nice, it's just not mobile. %$# in her Archwing form is slow, so slow in fact that a Loki could likely catch up to her on vertical heavy maps, I thought speed mods would fix that problem, but it seems that they don't even increase her speed in Archwing mode. Her defense is pitiful even in Pixie form, and does not benefit from air mods. But I figured if she could do some AoE, she could at least be useful as a long ranged Arial attacker. However, even though I can maybe kill a mob on the other side of the map with her pistol in Heirocon, she can only kill one mob at a time. On top of that, she seems to have a glitch where she has the hitbox of a normal sized frame. I wouldn't mind it so much if she was full sized, but it's hard to tell where her hitbox ends when she is about 50% smaller than her hitbox. 

 

Zephyr on the other hand has next to none of these problems with the right build. Sure she has less control in the air which makes it harder to use her that way in closed maps. but on open maps and maps with large rooms like Void and most defense and interception maps, she is an extremely potent long ranged sniper/carpet bomber with a surprising amount of survivability. With a few mods like Aviator and Agility Drift, she has a whopping -32% damage reduction with a +12% evasion before factoring in Parkour evasion, if you choose to keep enough duration on, then you can also keep up Turbulence for about 17 seconds, which increases her evasion even more. At this point even in Sorties three against Grineers, you will be evading so much so long as you stay in the air that you only get hit about once a minute, and the shields tank it fairly well. You are also able to use whatever weapons you want, even if they are normally too suicidal to use, like Kulstars. The splash damage from Kulstar can wipe out a huge group of enemies once you get used to the low projectile speed, and her height advantage makes it possible to defend two extractors at some points where other frames would struggle to do the same.

So yes, Zephyr can't "fly", but Zephyr is still much better in the air defensively, offensively, and in mobility than Titania is so long as she has the room to sustain her infinite jump/glide combo. So I am not really angry at Titania for taking Zephyr's thunder anymore because she just turned out to be a CC frame with an unsynergistic flight system with no speed, damage, or defense. If she actually had the skills to back up her flight like Tailwind, Divebomb, and Turbulence, then she would have been a pretty good frame.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Esorono said:

No, I am actually serious when I say Zephyr is better at utilizing flight than Titania. Unlike %$# she has three skills that revolve around her being and utilizing her being in the air. Titania is a CC frame with a flight skill tacked on the end, Zephyr is an aerial mobility frame with a floaty CC tacked on the end. Honestly it looks like they somehow swapped ultimates.

Zephyr's 4 is quite lackluster, unless you consider the interception niches. Other than that, I don't think they should switch abilities.

5 hours ago, Esorono said:

 whopping -32% damage reduction with a +12% evasion

Ahahahaha.

Nekros: 90% damage reduction

Titania: 50% evasion

"whopping".

5 hours ago, Esorono said:

Parkour evasion

This is the main factor for Zephyr's survivability. With the currently small maps and low height limit, it's not going to work.

5 hours ago, Esorono said:

Turbulence for about 17 seconds, which increases her evasion even more. At this point even in Sorties three against Grineers, you will be evading so much so long as you stay in the air that you only get hit about once a minute, and the shields tank it fairly well.

Another factor for Zephyr's survivability, but struggles to function in very tight corridors and pipes with Ogris explosions.

Other than all that, I agree with most of your points.

Edited by Guest
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Madho said:

Zephyr's 4 is quite lackluster, unless you consider the interception niches. Other than that, I don't think they should switch abilities.

Ahahahaha.

Nekros: 90% damage reduction

Titania: 50% evasion

"whopping".

This is the main factor for Zephyr's survivability. With the currently small maps and low height limit, it's not going to work.

Another factor for Zephyr's survivability, but struggles to function in very tight corridors and pipes with Ogris explosions.

Other than all that, I agree with most of your points.

 

Tornado is really bad, it feels like a tacked on skill.

Nekros: 0% evasion

Titania: 0% damage reduction

Zephyr: 32% damage reduction + 12% evasion stacked on top of parkour and turbulence evasion. So yeah, long story short, Titania and Nekros get hit FAR more often than Zephyr, and because Nekros gets hit much more often, he technically takes more damage. Nekros just also happens to have a skill that makes it rain health orbs. If she is able to stay in the air, she isn't going to be hit very often at all.

And I have no idea what you are talking about, because parkouring is easy in all maps, even the silly small ones. Though her turbulence builds tend to work much better in ship maps and other small maps.

And don't use Ogris in tight corridors, yikes. Swap to a melee weapon or your secondary, I mean I understand people liking one weapon, but really, sometimes you need to learn to choose when and when not to use certain weapons.

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Esorono said:

If she is able to stay in the air, she isn't going to be hit very often at all.

Which she rarely could because there's a ceiling for crying out loud. As if the rooms aren't already small enough.

7 minutes ago, Esorono said:

And I have no idea what you are talking about, because parkouring is easy in all maps, even the silly small ones. 

Sure, but then again, open maps can be a feasible solution, too.

10 minutes ago, Esorono said:

And don't use Ogris in tight corridors, yikes. 

I meant Bombard Ogris.

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Madho said:

Which she rarely could because there's a ceiling for crying out loud. As if the rooms aren't already small enough.

Sure, but then again, open maps can be a feasible solution, too.

I meant Bombard Ogris.

Well you don't use flight Zephyr builds in tight corridors, that's a job for the turbulence builds. Flight builds are for the open maps and void maps where she has room to actually stay in the air and make use of it.

Yes, she operates well in open maps very well, but really she works well in any map so long as you know what you are going into before you start.

Oh you mean those bombards that have projectiles so slow that you can basically walk away from them and that get caught and explode harmlessly on Zephyr's inner shield. I haven't had much of a problem with them, so I don't really take them into consideration when making builds. The only mobs I bother making a counter for are Ancients, Nullifiers, Combas, and Bursas as they are the really the only mobs in the game that can be considered a threat if you have no counters to them. And even then I find them more as a minor annoyance.

Link to post
Share on other sites

This has been posted 1000's of times :(  To be quite honest, flight is pretty useless on Titania too aside from the OK weapons she gets while using it.

Flying Zephyr adds nothing to the group.  Nobody wants your Zephyr now in their group, and they certainly aren't going to want you if you can fly.

Seriously, think about it for a minute:

Have you ever heard the following in recruitment?:

______ group LF Zephyr!

Do you honestly think you are going to hear this if Zephyr can suddenly fly?  It's not going to help.  If this is what Zephyr gets for her overhaul, then it's wasted.

 

Zephyr needs something to add value to her group for her tweaking, and she is WAY more valuable right now while on the ground anyway.  She's also a very strong frame right now (especially with 8 formas...), but also a very selfish frame which is responsible for most of the Zephyr h8.

Edited by Clowee
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Clowee said:

This has been posted 1000's of times :(  To be quite honest, flight is pretty useless on Titania too aside from the OK weapons she gets while using it.

Flying Zephyr adds nothing to the group.  Nobody wants your Zephyr now in their group, and they certainly aren't going to want you if you can fly.

Seriously, think about it for a minute:

Have you ever heard the following in recruitment?:

______ group LF Zephyr!

Do you honestly think you are going to hear this if Zephyr can suddenly fly?  It's not going to help.  If this is what Zephyr gets for her overhaul, then it's wasted.

 

Zephyr needs something to add value to her group for her tweaking, and she is WAY more valuable right now while on the ground anyway.  She's also a very strong frame right now (especially with 8 formas...), but also a very selfish frame which is responsible for most of the Zephyr h8.

Have to say I completely agree with this sentiment. Apart from Titania's usefulness in fairy-form, the butterflies are great aggro-draws and really benefit a team on most modes.

On the other hand... there are things that could be done to make Zephyr's floaty aerial casting nature a real benefit to a team. Maybe if Tailwind and Dive Bomb become a combined ability (one of the first things done on nearly every rework thread so far) she could get a new 2 that benefits far more from being in the air than it does from being on the ground. Or how about an ability that situationally buffs allies in a large radius (maybe affinity share range) when they're off the ground?

She has the potential to make use of that air time, instead of it being an annoyance when you hit the top of the door instead of going through it ^^

Edited by Thaylien
Titania
Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, Zephyr was never meant to actually fly. If she were, DE would have actually thought up a way to make her do so instead of delivering a half-baked frame. She was created in the era of lackluster parkour and clunky movement, which made her extremely mobile compared to every other frame, and was likely very useful in that regard. 

She only became outdated with the addition of Parkour 2.0, which gave all frames the ability to move fluently and swiftly, so she was no longer necessary for her increased agility, and actually became the opposite of what she used to be - clunky and hard to control. 

However, with all the whining since Parkour 2.0, she'll likely be able to fly after her refactor, despite that not being even close to her original design. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Esorono said:

Oh you mean those bombards that have projectiles so slow that you can basically walk away from them and that get caught and explode harmlessly on Zephyr's inner shield. 

When you have both sides of the tunnel clogged with meat shields while it's the only way to get to the other side, you're pretty much screwed. The best thing I can think of to counter this would be Dive Bomb CC, or perhaps Tornado. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Esorono said:

No, I am actually serious when I say Zephyr is better at utilizing flight than Titania. Unlike %$# she has three skills that revolve around her being and utilizing her being in the air. Titania is a CC frame with a flight skill tacked on the end, Zephyr is an aerial mobility frame with a floaty CC tacked on the end. Honestly it looks like they somehow swapped ultimates.

Meanwhile Titania just has a buff and two control powers which aren't exactly amazing or synergistic to flying. And her CC's make it so that one mob is invincible and unable to be killed, which is why a lot of people hate Ashes and Limbos. And the other one makes mobs float away, and ragdolls them when it, which annoys anyone not %$# as well. Tribute is nice, it's just not mobile. %$# in her Archwing form is slow, so slow in fact that a Loki could likely catch up to her on vertical heavy maps, I thought speed mods would fix that problem, but it seems that they don't even increase her speed in Archwing mode. Her defense is pitiful even in Pixie form, and does not benefit from air mods. But I figured if she could do some AoE, she could at least be useful as a long ranged Arial attacker. However, even though I can maybe kill a mob on the other side of the map with her pistol in Heirocon, she can only kill one mob at a time. On top of that, she seems to have a glitch where she has the hitbox of a normal sized frame. I wouldn't mind it so much if she was full sized, but it's hard to tell where her hitbox ends when she is about 50% smaller than her hitbox. 

 

Zephyr on the other hand has next to none of these problems with the right build. Sure she has less control in the air which makes it harder to use her that way in closed maps. but on open maps and maps with large rooms like Void and most defense and interception maps, she is an extremely potent long ranged sniper/carpet bomber with a surprising amount of survivability. With a few mods like Aviator and Agility Drift, she has a whopping -32% damage reduction with a +12% evasion before factoring in Parkour evasion, if you choose to keep enough duration on, then you can also keep up Turbulence for about 17 seconds, which increases her evasion even more. At this point even in Sorties three against Grineers, you will be evading so much so long as you stay in the air that you only get hit about once a minute, and the shields tank it fairly well. You are also able to use whatever weapons you want, even if they are normally too suicidal to use, like Kulstars. The splash damage from Kulstar can wipe out a huge group of enemies once you get used to the low projectile speed, and her height advantage makes it possible to defend two extractors at some points where other frames would struggle to do the same.

So yes, Zephyr can't "fly", but Zephyr is still much better in the air defensively, offensively, and in mobility than Titania is so long as she has the room to sustain her infinite jump/glide combo. So I am not really angry at Titania for taking Zephyr's thunder anymore because she just turned out to be a CC frame with an unsynergistic flight system with no speed, damage, or defense. If she actually had the skills to back up her flight like Tailwind, Divebomb, and Turbulence, then she would have been a pretty good frame.

I don't disagree that it would be nice for Zephyr have better "in the air movement", but I can't see ANY way that DE will now just modify her skill set to impinge on what Titania can do with her Ult, just because some are now unhappy that archwing physics have been turned into an ability.

I think that Titania is generally a freak of nature with her Ultimate, as DE is probably scrambling on what they can use as abilities. I mean, we have pretty much covered most obvious stuff already, it's always going to be an uphill battle to make new Frames with unique things they can do.

You are still NOT getting a flying Zephyr, because she was NEVER meant to fly.

Repeating this, she was NEVER meant to fly, people simply WANT to think that, she was simply meant to have extra in-air maneuverability - which she got - so now asking for flight, because ANOTHER Frame has flight? If she was not meant to fly BEFORE, she sure as hek won't get to fly NOW.

How does Rhino "Iron Skin" make sense when it's OVER THE TOP of shields? Should it not be UNDER the shields? It's a design decision that allows shields to regenerate, not to "make sense", and just because Zephyr is an air frame, and flight might "make sense" the design decision was that she will NOT fly.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/27/2016 at 8:19 PM, DSpite said:

I don't disagree that it would be nice for Zephyr have better "in the air movement", but I can't see ANY way that DE will now just modify her skill set to impinge on what Titania can do with her Ult, just because some are now unhappy that archwing physics have been turned into an ability.

I think that Titania is generally a freak of nature with her Ultimate, as DE is probably scrambling on what they can use as abilities. I mean, we have pretty much covered most obvious stuff already, it's always going to be an uphill battle to make new Frames with unique things they can do.

You are still NOT getting a flying Zephyr, because she was NEVER meant to fly.

Repeating this, she was NEVER meant to fly, people simply WANT to think that, she was simply meant to have extra in-air maneuverability - which she got - so now asking for flight, because ANOTHER Frame has flight? If she was not meant to fly BEFORE, she sure as hek won't get to fly NOW.

How does Rhino "Iron Skin" make sense when it's OVER THE TOP of shields? Should it not be UNDER the shields? It's a design decision that allows shields to regenerate, not to "make sense", and just because Zephyr is an air frame, and flight might "make sense" the design decision was that she will NOT fly.

 

Yes I can kind of agree with Titania's skills being a bit everywhere. It is obvious they wanted a flying frame to satisfy the people who wanted one, but realized they could not make any skills that actually synergized with flight to make it useful on the air and on the ground otherwise they'd have to copy most of Zephyr's skills. So instead they made her a fairly underwhelming CC frame that barely works, and doesn't synergize with itself at all directly or indirectly. I knew something like this would happen which is why I wanted Zephyr to be the flying frame, now we have a frame with one of the best skills in the entire game stuck on a frame that doesn't have the skills to back it up. She's slow as molasses in the air without a Tailwind or even an Afterburner, she has no defenses outside of her evasion and razorflies because those puny CC skills aren't going to save her, only her Tribute skill is of any use. It's a bit sad that the strongest mobility skill is now a part of one of the least qualified frame to use it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Esorono said:

I knew something like this would happen which is why I wanted Zephyr to be the flying frame, now we have a frame with one of the best skills in the entire game stuck on a frame that doesn't have the skills to back it up.

Actually, Zephyr does qualify for "flying". I have enjoyed sniping from above with my bow when I first played Zephyr with a Tailwind build before obtaining Ivara, but the problem here would be the aim glide falling. It's great for the first second or so, but then you suddenly drop at ridiculous speeds that makes it nigh impossible to aim unless you try to predict the projectile projection. Not that I have a problem with predicting it as I often do so, but the fall speed is just too much to bear, especially with scoped in snipers. Giving her innate aim glide duration would give her a significant advantage. 

Edited by Guest
Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Madho said:

Actually, Zephyr does qualify for "flying". I have enjoyed sniping from above with my bow when I first played Zephyr with a Tailwind build before obtaining Ivara, but the problem here would be the aim glide falling. It's great for the first second or so, but then you suddenly drop at ridiculous speeds that makes it nigh impossible to aim unless you try to predict the projectile projection. Not that I have a problem with predicting it as I often do so, but the fall speed is just too much to bear, especially with scoped in snipers. Giving her innate aim glide duration would give her a significant advantage. 

I have found a way around this that allows you to stay in aim glide for a fairly long time for about 12 seconds, try combining patagium with arcane consequence, also you might want to equip thunderbolt to the bow if you can fit it on to activate arcane consequence easier. And once you start falling, you can refresh them back after about two tailwinds.

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Esorono said:

I have found a way around this that allows you to stay in aim glide for a fairly long time for about 12 seconds, try combining patagium with arcane consequence

I know, but "mod for it" still does not excuse Zephyr for her current relatively less significant mobility. Integrating aim glide, one of the main aspects of pseudo flight into Zephyr's passive would be an awesome change. Tailwind itself can also use some QoL changes by removing momentum conservation for the aerial version of this ability to have a better control over it.

Edited by Guest
Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Madho said:

I know, but "mod for it" still does not excuse Zephyr for her currently relatively less significant mobility. Integrating aim glide, one of the main aspects of pseudo flight into Zephyr's passive would be an awesome change. Tailwind itself can also use some QoL changes by removing momentum conservation for the aerial version of this ability to have a better control over it.

Well, I do admit I certainly wouldn't be against this.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 13/8/2016 at 10:31 PM, GorgontheMorgon said:

You guys Don't get it all. There's a thing called density and mass of you want to get scientific. Also volume and gravity. Sure zephyr ways less than air because of all the odium and she's modeled after a bird but she's big bird from Sesame Street, both can't fly. Now the reason why Titania can fly is that she shrinks while keeping her mass so basically she's even lighter and plus she has actual wings.

beseids the fact that warframe universe clearly runs on space magic what you just said it's complete and utter bullS#&$ from every prospective, if titania shrinks but keeps her mass she's denser, not lighter, and that does nothing but hinder flight even more supposedly if flies due to buoyancy (archimedes is your friend) and volume has absolutely 0 impact on aereodinamic flight (excluding edge cases) anyways,

Edited by bl4ckhunter
Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, KiryuKusakabe said:

zephyr was created a bit before parkour 2.0 and Archwing were implemented into the game. that is the reason she can't fly.

 

also she doesn't really fly. she just falls with style.

thats kinda what flying is

zephyr can fly

jet-fighter-1920x1200-wallpaper532334.jp

titania can hover

23-harry-helicopter-full.jpg

 

Edited by hazerddex
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...