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When Titania can fly freely, why Zephyr can't?


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5 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Oh and this should be the new divebomb when you press and hold 1

Very much agree, it hurts my head just watching how Zephyr divebombs. Although I have to say I'm really impressed as to how durable Oxium is considering Zephyr doesn't take any damage slamming into the ground the way she does.

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So I was thinking about how to cater to people who like Zephyr's passive, and to those who hate it...

 

Passive: Is no longer low gravity. Zephyr now an extra jump in the air, and has much stronger and longer aim gliding

Tailwind: Zephyr launches in a direction a full speed, but can continue to glide and maneuver  until she hits an obstacle or performs a parkour move.

   -Basically, the skill puts Zephyr into a "glide mode" instead of a "dash mode", where she can freely control where she glides, but the skill activation gives her a speed boost to give her initial momentum. Hitting a wall or other surface during the beginning speed boost would give the best effect for the Divebomb knockdown

2nd ability - Rising Winds: By holding down the skill, Zephyr can "charge" herself with air, like Inaros does with Scarab Swarm (But MUCH faster), and at full charge gravity has less effect on her. If the player taps the skill, Zephyr quickly releases wind from her body that throws nearby enemies in the direction she's facing (while consuming some stacks)

   -Players who dislike low gravity don't have to fully charge to get the low gravity (de)buff. Players who do can keep it fully charged. Both players would need to keep their stacks managed however if they are using the active half of the skill.

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52 minutes ago, zehne said:

Very much agree, it hurts my head just watching how Zephyr divebombs. Although I have to say I'm really impressed as to how durable Oxium is considering Zephyr doesn't take any damage slamming into the ground the way she does.

Can you imagine?

Holding 1 does a dive-bomb like that while in the air.

Holding 1 while grounded like in the video Zephyr does a small flip and slams her hands on the ground for a Wing cc forward like the Titans in the video do.

2 minutes ago, EchoesOfRain said:

So I was thinking about how to cater to people who like Zephyr's passive, and to those who hate it...

 

Passive: Is no longer low gravity. Zephyr now an extra jump in the air, and has much stronger and longer aim gliding

Tailwind: Zephyr launches in a direction a full speed, but can continue to glide and maneuver  until she hits an obstacle or performs a parkour move.

   -Basically, the skill puts Zephyr into a "glide mode" instead of a "dash mode", where she can freely control where she glides, but the skill activation gives her a speed boost to give her initial momentum. Hitting a wall or other surface during the beginning speed boost would give the best effect for the Divebomb knockdown

2nd ability - Rising Winds: By holding down the skill, Zephyr can "charge" herself with air, like Inaros does with Scarab Swarm (But MUCH faster), and at full charge gravity has less effect on her. If the player taps the skill, Zephyr quickly releases wind from her body that throws nearby enemies in the direction she's facing (while consuming some stacks)

   -Players who dislike low gravity don't have to fully charge to get the low gravity (de)buff. Players who do can keep it fully charged. Both players would need to keep their stacks managed however if they are using the active half of the skill.

I'm not understanding why Zephyr players have to cater to non Zephyr players with a gravity change. It's literally her most unique factor and players who do not like it simple don't want to take the time to learn how to control it. Instead they just complain that it's not like everyone else.

Reworks should balance and make QoL changes. Zephyrs gravity is not a problem with her and to change it is just appeasement to those unwilling to put in a bit of effort.

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6 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Amazing. A few of my suggestions and your own Thaylien are presented in the original concept of Zephyr. 

However, the concept of flying was not included in this original project as what is being suggested in these threads. The closest thing that resembles a flying suggestion is the Gale Force which is in theory what we have now.

We all need to decide together what Zephyr should become together. All responses that just suggest flying without reasoning or concept should literally be ignored. Honestly all suggested changes without reasoning should be considered bait by all of you who constantly lurk Zephyr threads. They only to get into the same argument where a player who lacks skill with Zephyr uses the forums to vent because they dont like slow falling or they dont know what the purpose of tailwind is in functionality.

Oh and this should be the new divebomb when you press and hold 1

 

Yes! This is pretty much what I want divebomb to be like, except for a faster start up time and about twice the launch speed. Or to keep up momentum a bit better, start off as a normal tailwind for about 1/4 of a second and if tailwind is still being held, double the speed and do the same thing as what was shown in the video.

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7 minutes ago, Esorono said:

Yes! This is pretty much what I want divebomb to be like, except for a faster start up time and about twice the launch speed. Or to keep up momentum a bit better, start off as a normal tailwind for about 1/4 of a second and if tailwind is still being held, double the speed and do the same thing as what was shown in the video.

Let's get some synergy with it too. 

Turbulence explodes when cast with dive bomb and pulses out slashing all around in Zephyrs wake.

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12 hours ago, Thaylien said:

You know, since we last had any discussion, Esorono, there's been a lot of great ideas on how to make her better without taking away anything she currently does in the rework threads here. You don't have to make her overpowered, you don't even need to make her a full CC frame and you certainly don't need to take away her mobility.

I also want to note, to everyone not just this conversation, that there's an amazing lack of end-game now, with the changes to the void. It's completely voluntary if you want to go to Sorties, Raids or try for multi-hour runs on Mot, nothing in the star chart needs to be done for more than... twenty waves of defense? So building for more fun is a valid option now, go have fun with her ^^

For example, an idea to make Dive Bomb better; little mechanical buffs like a base range buff with a guaranteed knock-down on anything that's not a boss (something key here is that somebody suggested that it also affect things a little above and below the plane of impact so that a simple slope doesn't negate the effect). The height boost then gives even more range, the usual bonus damage, and at max height is a full rag-doll. It keeps the existing ability as-is, but buffed so it's far more useful, it isn't as suicidal against heavy units that stagger and then ground-pound to knock you down in return, nor is there any need to throw on Heavy Impact to get the effect you want.

A lot of people want it combined in with Tailwind too, and even though I agree, I think they still need to be distinct (previously I mentioned a tap/hold mechanic, but it's even simpler; aim straight down and it puts a target on the ground to show the difference between the Tailwind and Dive Bomb functions. Quick, visual, just as fast to cast it as always) because the two are similar, but purposefully opposite casts.

Add to this that the Dive Bomb Vortex mod would then also apply to Tailwind itself, able to pull mobs off their feet as you jet past, you have an ability that would actually do surprisingly well through the modes.

And that's just a little idea, another one is to give Zephyr a boost to her low-grav function, it's not flight, but it takes an existing function and tweaks it a little; like Loki's wall-latch extension, Zephyr would get an aim-glide extension, a few seconds of null-grav on triggering it that she can move around with the same degree of freedom as she can usually move around in the air (I always found it weird that she can steer as long as she's not aim-gliding...). Have it reset on landing/latching a surface, on casting Tailwind, and you have a great way to play 'the floor is lava' without crippling your Tailwind.

Fixing Tornado's AI would certainly help, there's yards of text I could go into there, because it doesn't need much tweaking to make it into a real area-denial ability where it's currently pretty unreliable as one, just that explaining those tweaks would take time. But a fun addition I saw suggested (I mentioned this earlier in the thread actually) would be to make each funnel act like the Lua Agility test pipes, where any player can aim-glide into them and get boosted upwards. Like Bounce, but voluntary, so more team friendly.

And if you really think about it, a new 2 ability could be done too that doesn't take from her mobility, take inspiration from the original concept thread, if you wanted. The one where she buffs herself and allies, or kicks up a rolling wave of wind... there's plenty to go on.

But just those little tweaks could be the difference between a Zephyr who is only currently about solo running with pure mobility and personal defense, to a more active solo runner, her existing abilities able to fill those gaps in CC and Offense that they currently attempt and fail at.

Sure without a new ability she still wouldn't have any Support function for a team, but just being able to stay alive, actively attacking the enemy, quick-respond to situations from across the map with reliable mobility, reliable CC (even if it's smaller ranged than most), and a 4 that she can leave going without it annoying her team... yeah, that would be amazing.

Don't you think so?

I'd say she would be fine with CC if Tornado wasn't more trouble to the team and the Zephyr itself than it was helpful, but the flinging and haphazard mob movement as well as blocking your own bullets with no way to remove them makes it a hindrance using it on anything other than to revive someone, even if they had their AI fixed. I'd say it needs a bit more than a few tweaks. Her divebomb vortex mod also adds a decent CC, especially if divebomb combined with tailwind. Anymore would just be overkill for CC, I'd say she wouldn't need another. But a second movement ability (If you don't include Jet Stream) would significantly help. A lot of people really want a better aim glide with her, and honestly I agree with them, I've kind of given up on her having flight now with Titania...And Tit's frustratingly unsynergistic tool kit for a flying frame. So I propose we should suggest making it a skill, a buffing skill that gives +100% aim glide, better mobility while in aim glide maybe even an ascent if space is pressed as well, and just to give her more of a hunting bird vibe, outlining mobs with a red highlight which can be seen through terrain.

I'm not sure about these, but they kind of bounced around in my head. Such as making Turbulence a toggle instead, this would mean it wouldn't have that frustratingly long downtime where you can't recast it and then wait for it to finish casting, and it also means that you can focus more on efficiency, power, and range if you want or add more duration, as Zephyr benefits from having a low duration and high duration in different ways except for her turbulence which always wants high duration. Also I feel that Jet Stream should boost her acceleration as well, as her acceleration speed with Jet Stream is pretty slow.

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18 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Let's get some synergy with it too. 

Turbulence explodes when cast with dive bomb and pulses out slashing all around in Zephyrs wake.

Well, maybe not that, Turbulence is a bit of an expensive cost and a huge portion of her defense and in some builds mobility and offense. I think just adding a bit more damage to divebomb would be enough.

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17 hours ago, Esorono said:

Honestly it is her only saving grace, because she doesn't benefit at all from either of her crowd control skills, and her tribute is 'meh' at its best. They ran out of ideas, she was built with the idea of flight in mind, and everything else was filler. Though she can technically boost team mobility with her passive, not that it matters that much, but it is there, and her bullet jumps are admittedly pretty nice with a mobilize mod.

And yes, there is no real need for that niche, but it is better to have it than not. What if people enjoy being able to finish things quickly and efficiently? And of course you don't see them ask for Zephyr, because any group who is going to be looking for a specific team member is going to be doing something like a 100 wave defense mission. They aren't going to ask for specific frames for a rescue mission, and the people who want to speed run those tend to want to go solo. It's pointless to have support or CC in missions that aren't extended endless runs, since everything dies in one hit and it is practically impossible to die unless you stand still. So that leaves two important aspects left, speed and AoE, the more you have of both, the smoother things go, simple as that. In an exterminate mission, no one cares about your Nova's ability to slow things down, no one cares that your Excalibur can blind the room, no one cares that Trinity just gave you a defense boost. If you are still running 20 seconds after everyone is at extraction, then they care. 

But by all means, butcher her mobility, take away everything that makes Zephyr Zephyr and throw on some support and CC, aaaaaaaaand nothing changes. She will still not be the best CC, she will still not be the best support frame, so she is garbage to teams and you won't see her on LF groups anyways. It's a meta of competition, we have thirty warframes, and almost all of those fill or at least attempt to fill the CC and utility niche, she can't compete with that without a complete overhaul or an absurdly overpowered ability, so why bother? Her mobility niche is what makes her at least somewhat relevant, take that away and she is nothing.

Stop assuming the idea is to butcher Zephyr's mobility.  It's somewhat laughable how you're very very poorly attempting to put words in my mouth that I've never said.  I main an 8 forma Zephyr built 100% for mobility and have for many many months now, and the stuff you are posting is nonsense.  Your premises that mobility creates a niche is false, or at the very best consigned to an extremely small % of the available game play content.

Also, her crowd control is far from useless.  Tornadoes can do very well if you use them correctly and in the correct areas of the map.  Sadly, most people using her crowd control are what's really useless.  And no, she doesn't need more crowd control because we have plenty of that in other frames.  You seem to have some kind of unhealthy obsession with this idea that the only way anybody else but you could possibly imagine improving the frame is to make it a 100 wave defense drone.

The point is Zephyr's mobility is good enough and doesn't need to change.  Changing it by adding more mobility will not solve the problems at hand.  The solution is to retain AT LEAST the same mobility while giving her an actual purpose other than running (or flying) around the map fast.  More mobility won't hurt, but it wont help either which is what you are miserably failing to understand here.

This, my little flightless chicken, is one possible way you can fix Zephyr.  Before you get your feathers in a ruffle, it's not the ONLY way:

First of all, she needs a totally cool epic premium skin.

Then:

A)  Tailwind should be turned into an instant cast no animation toggle that replaces bullet jump when active.  Each use should drain energy, and it should not be super expensive to use - maybe around 5-20 energy.  Each use of Tailwind should reset all parkour timers such as aim glide, wall latch, bullet jump (so you can chain tailwinds), double jump and so on.  The knock back effect of tailwind should be more pronounced for enemies caught in it's path, but the ability should do negligible damage at best.  Tailwind should also be able to be canceled after launch by doing something like crouching so the distance can be controlled.

B)  Dive Bomb should stay as is, but it should deal extra damage to enemy bubble shields such as nullifier bubbles and frost extremis globes based on it's height.  At full height, it should outright shatter (dispell) these bubbles without stripping Zephyr of her current buffs in the case of nullifiers.  This would give Zephyr something unique, and solve all the annoying nullifier threads that have popped up on the forums.  It would also encourage Zephyr to be more of an air frame since it would synergize better now with Tailwind as reworked above.  It would also encourage mobility oriented offensive play.

C)  Turbulence/Jetstream is fine the way it is.

D)  Tornadoes should keep their current level of general insanity in terms of how they behave.  In addition to grabbing up enemies, each tornado should have it's own fairly large turbulence bubble which deflects enemy projectiles.  Shooting a tornado should transfer the damage directly to it's inhabitants individually (meaning if there are 10 enemies in the tornado, each of them take the damage from the bullet individually and the damage is not divided among targets) and guarantee a status proc.  Tornadoes should be more voracious at grabbing enemies also and grab more of them.

 

Now kindly go back to mother hen and get your eye's checked so you can stop reading stuff that isn't there to fit your own agenda.  Also, ask her how many people really consider waiting an extra 20 seconds at the end of the mission for somebody to catch up is actually a big deal... 

Funny story, if you complete the mission tooo fast you will have to wait until they all zone in anyway, and i'm sure they will LOVE that zoning in near the exit and not getting any mob drops or resources, let alone getting to actually participate - been there done that.

 

 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Let's get some synergy with it too. 

Turbulence explodes when cast with dive bomb and pulses out slashing all around in Zephyrs wake.

That would be interesting. I'd have to recast turbulence quickly if I wanted to survive, but I think it could be worth the extra energy cost. I'm not sure what kind of mods you'd need to make it work. The first thing to come to mind is making Turbulence one of those toggled abilities. As much as I hate to say it, it's a wonder Turbulence hasn't become a toggle yet.

28 minutes ago, Clowee said:

I main an 8 forma Zephyr built 100% for mobility and have for many many months now, and the stuff you are posting is nonsense.  Your premises that mobility creates a niche is false, or at the very best consigned to an extremely small % of the available game play content.

Care to share this build? (or at least the general stats to min/max) I've been playing with builds since the Titania update to see what I can get out of Zephyr, but turbulence builds are all I seem to find these days.

44 minutes ago, Clowee said:

B)  Dive Bomb should stay as is, but it should deal extra damage to enemy bubble shields such as nullifier bubbles and frost extremis globes based on it's height.  At full height, it should outright shatter (dispell) these bubbles without stripping Zephyr of her current buffs in the case of nullifiers.  This would give Zephyr something unique, and solve all the annoying nullifier threads that have popped up on the forums.  It would also encourage Zephyr to be more of an air frame since it would synergize better now with Tailwind as reworked above.  It would also encourage mobility oriented offensive play.

I suppose we must agree to disagree when it comes to what this ability needs. If it does get some buffs, or use outside of granting a quick landing and some CC, it would certainly encourage players to stay airborne.

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1 hour ago, Clowee said:

Stop assuming the idea is to butcher Zephyr's mobility.  It's somewhat laughable how you're very very poorly attempting to put words in my mouth that I've never said.  I main an 8 forma Zephyr built 100% for mobility and have for many many months now, and the stuff you are posting is nonsense.  Your premises that mobility creates a niche is false, or at the very best consigned to an extremely small % of the available game play content.

Also, her crowd control is far from useless.  Tornadoes can do very well if you use them correctly and in the correct areas of the map.  Sadly, most people using her crowd control are what's really useless.  And no, she doesn't need more crowd control because we have plenty of that in other frames.  You seem to have some kind of unhealthy obsession with this idea that the only way anybody else but you could possibly imagine improving the frame is to make it a 100 wave defense drone.

The point is Zephyr's mobility is good enough and doesn't need to change.  Changing it by adding more mobility will not solve the problems at hand.  The solution is to retain AT LEAST the same mobility while giving her an actual purpose other than running (or flying) around the map fast.  More mobility won't hurt, but it wont help either which is what you are miserably failing to understand here.

This, my little flightless chicken, is one possible way you can fix Zephyr.  Before you get your feathers in a ruffle, it's not the ONLY way:

First of all, she needs a totally cool epic premium skin.

Then:

A)  Tailwind should be turned into an instant cast no animation toggle that replaces bullet jump when active.  Each use should drain energy, and it should not be super expensive to use - maybe around 5-20 energy.  Each use of Tailwind should reset all parkour timers such as aim glide, wall latch, bullet jump (so you can chain tailwinds), double jump and so on.  The knock back effect of tailwind should be more pronounced for enemies caught in it's path, but the ability should do negligible damage at best.  Tailwind should also be able to be canceled after launch by doing something like crouching so the distance can be controlled.

B)  Dive Bomb should stay as is, but it should deal extra damage to enemy bubble shields such as nullifier bubbles and frost extremis globes based on it's height.  At full height, it should outright shatter (dispell) these bubbles without stripping Zephyr of her current buffs in the case of nullifiers.  This would give Zephyr something unique, and solve all the annoying nullifier threads that have popped up on the forums.  It would also encourage Zephyr to be more of an air frame since it would synergize better now with Tailwind as reworked above.  It would also encourage mobility oriented offensive play.

C)  Turbulence/Jetstream is fine the way it is.

D)  Tornadoes should keep their current level of general insanity in terms of how they behave.  In addition to grabbing up enemies, each tornado should have it's own fairly large turbulence bubble which deflects enemy projectiles.  Shooting a tornado should transfer the damage directly to it's inhabitants individually (meaning if there are 10 enemies in the tornado, each of them take the damage from the bullet individually and the damage is not divided among targets) and guarantee a status proc.  Tornadoes should be more voracious at grabbing enemies also and grab more of them.

 

Now kindly go back to mother hen and get your eye's checked so you can stop reading stuff that isn't there to fit your own agenda.  Also, ask her how many people really consider waiting an extra 20 seconds at the end of the mission for somebody to catch up is actually a big deal... 

Funny story, if you complete the mission tooo fast you will have to wait until they all zone in anyway, and i'm sure they will LOVE that zoning in near the exit and not getting any mob drops or resources, let alone getting to actually participate - been there done that.

 

 

It does create a niche, are there other mobile focused frames? No? Does it help the frame? Yes. Does it help complete missions faster? Yes. Can other frames do this? No. It is a niche, one that plenty of people like. Also I main two Zephyrs and currently leveling a third. Speed is everything in this game, nothing is more important than the speed of which you can move across the map. AoE comes in a close second, but weapons can easily fill that role so being on the warframe is meh at best. She is a mobility frame, which is something that I can get behind and should be her focus not something silly like CC like Titania. If you REALLY want to play a speedy CC frame, play a Volt. Zephyr is for getting missions done fast. Also I am not putting words in your mouth you said she needed support and CC to get into LF groups, and the only LF groups are the 100 defense drones, everything else can be pugged easily. Even Sortie assassinations can be soloed easily if you know what you are doing.

Also she is getting a Premium skin, which is pretty neat. zephyr.jpg

Zephyr Deluxe Skin

Art for the Zephyr Deluxe Skin has been released, featuring Energy Wings that appear when you’re airborne. (i.e. during a bullet jump or flight)

Also A: HELL NO! JUST NO! She does NOT need her most important skill tailwind replaced! Get rid of Tornado instead if this is to be suggested. Also that is your idea of low energy on a a base 100 frame? 5 - 20 energy just for jumping and gliding? You will be from full to absolutely nothing in seconds if you played her normally even with max 

B: No, Nullifiers are silly easily dealt with, they aren't an issue at all, it should be combined with Tailwind and her two should be something mobile. 

C: Yes.

D: Too random, they are unreliable and unpredictable, only useful in super situational cases such as reviving in an infested map or in a super small corridor until they drift off into the void and become useless again. And if you need them again afterwards, I hope you had low duration because those tornadoes are going to last for a loooooooong time out of the map and unable to be cast again.

Also they are lucky then, they just finished the mission faster since they spawned near the end. Why would they complain? I find it far more annoying when I have to wait at the exit for that one person who decided to choose an Atlas or regular Rhino for an assassination and having to wait for the time out counter just to leave. It happens so often I tend to do most of those missions solo as it is much faster.

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10 minutes ago, Esorono said:

It does create a niche, are there other mobile focused frames? No? Does it help the frame? Yes. Does it help complete missions faster? Yes. Can other frames do this? No. It is a niche, one that plenty of people like. Also I main two Zephyrs and currently leveling a third. Speed is everything in this game, nothing is more important than the speed of which you can move across the map. AoE comes in a close second, but weapons can easily fill that role so being on the warframe is meh at best. She is a mobility frame, which is something that I can get behind and should be her focus not something silly like CC like Titania. If you REALLY want to play a speedy CC frame, play a Volt. Zephyr is for getting missions done fast. Also I am not putting words in your mouth you said she needed support and CC to get into LF groups, and the only LF groups are the 100 defense drones, everything else can be pugged easily. Even Sortie assassinations can be soloed easily if you know what you are doing.

Also she is getting a Premium skin, which is pretty neat. zephyr.jpg

Zephyr Deluxe Skin

Art for the Zephyr Deluxe Skin has been released, featuring Energy Wings that appear when you’re airborne. (i.e. during a bullet jump or flight)

Also A: HELL NO! JUST NO! She does NOT need her most important skill tailwind replaced! Get rid of Tornado instead if this is to be suggested. Also that is your idea of low energy on a a base 100 frame? 5 - 20 energy just for jumping and gliding? You will be from full to absolutely nothing in seconds if you played her normally even with max 

B: No, Nullifiers are silly easily dealt with, they aren't an issue at all, it should be combined with Tailwind and her two should be something mobile. 

C: Yes.

D: Too random, they are unreliable and unpredictable, only useful in super situational cases such as reviving in an infested map or in a super small corridor until they drift off into the void and become useless again. And if you need them again afterwards, I hope you had low duration because those tornadoes are going to last for a loooooooong time out of the map and unable to be cast again.

Also they are lucky then, they just finished the mission faster since they spawned near the end. Why would they complain? I find it far more annoying when I have to wait at the exit for that one person who decided to choose an Atlas or regular Rhino for an assassination and having to wait for the time out counter just to leave. It happens so often I tend to do most of those missions solo as it is much faster.

Do you read? I am thinking not.

Changing tailwind to a no cast no animation toggle that replaces bullet jump while active and can be chain cast would let you cast it basically forever until you ran out of energy.  You would not be replacing or losing anything.  You seriously would prefer tailwind as it is now, awkard and more expensive to chain cast and semi useless to stay afloat once you've burned doublejump?  5-20 energy is seriously cheap compared to the 25 you are burning now less a less agile ability.

I'm not going to waste my time on the rest of your post because your priority seems to be shaving 20 pointless seconds off missions you can easily solo with a MK1 Skana and no formas on your warframe, instead of creating a well balanced useful in all tilesets and missions warframe.  Your self centered view of how you are the only person who matters in the mission also goes a long way to show why people h8 on Zephyr to begin with.  Maybe the person who was slow to zone in wanted to, you know, play the mission instead of being handed free loot?

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1 minute ago, Clowee said:

Do you read? I am thinking not.

Changing tailwind to a no cast no animation toggle that replaces bullet jump while active and can be chain cast would let you cast it basically forever until you ran out of energy.  You would not be replacing or losing anything.  You seriously would prefer tailwind as it is now, awkard and more expensive to chain cast and semi useless to stay afloat once you've burned doublejump?  5-20 energy is seriously cheap compared to the 25 you are burning now less a less agile ability.

I'm not going to waste my time on the rest of your post because your priority seems to be shaving 20 pointless seconds off missions you can easily solo with a MK1 Skana and no formas on your warframe, instead of creating a well balanced useful in all tilesets and missions warframe.  Your self centered view of how you are the only person who matters in the mission also goes a long way to show why people h8 on Zephyr to begin with.  Maybe the person who was slow to zone in wanted to, you know, play the mission instead of being handed free loot?

We can do that already, making it a toggle will just prevent Zenurik from replenishing your energy, thus making you stay in the air less. If you were to make a change to it, it should be that each cast in the air reduces the cost amount like Valkyr's Ripline. That way you don't run out of energy in five seconds, right now she can stay in the air forever if she wanted to. Also it only takes one cast of tailwind and occasionally two to restore your aim glide to max currently.

And that is WHY I want to go faster, it's easy and I want it done faster. And it isn't just a 20 second of shaving time either. It can be a difference of minutes, sometimes up to five depending on the map. And honestly, you can build her to work in any mission, you just need to make more than one Zephyr due to conflicting Polarities. Though in all of them it's her mobility, and sometimes absurdly large wind shield that makes them work. And other people can matter, on a defense, survival, Intercept, and excavator in the higher waves. But that is a pretty small part of the game. And so far, no one I've seen hated any of my Zephyrs on the team granted I only played on the mid level missions like Sorties, but half the time I play them I carried them, prevented the objective from dying, or stopped my team mates from dying, and often times I come out of a mission with over 50% of the kills. Also I the numbers of times I went "Oh no, my team mate is bleeding out on the other side of the map, but I am too slow to get to them!" has been drastically lowered any time I play on a Zephyr. Or sometimes I can just run to them if they are getting low on health or energy and drop a heal or energy pad on them on an intercept and run back to my point in about two seconds. She doesn't help the team because you don't bother, not because Zephyr is bad in teams. And why would people complain about getting free loot?

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46 minutes ago, Clowee said:

I'm not going to waste my time on the rest of your post because your priority seems to be shaving 20 pointless seconds off missions you can easily solo with a MK1 Skana and no formas on your warframe, instead of creating a well balanced useful in all tilesets and missions warframe. 

Actually there's no MK-1 Skana...

4 minutes ago, Esorono said:

We can do that already, making it a toggle will just prevent Zenurik from replenishing your energy, thus making you stay in the air less. If you were to make a change to it, it should be that each cast in the air reduces the cost amount like Valkyr's Ripline. That way you don't run out of energy in five seconds, right now she can stay in the air forever if she wanted to. Also it only takes one cast of tailwind and occasionally two to restore your aim glide to max currently.

The main point here. I've been very disappointed by channeling abilities, especially those that drain a lot of energy, like Titania's Razorwing or Inaros's sandstorm. You can only go for 1.25 energy per second drained for max efficiency.

1 hour ago, Clowee said:

Maybe the person who was slow to zone in wanted to, you know, play the mission instead of being handed free loot?

Or you know, make the maps much bigger and packed with detail, which would solve Zephyr's mobility limitation problems and add more content simultaneously.

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1 minute ago, Madho said:

Actually there's no MK-1 Skana...

The main point here. I've been very disappointed by channeling abilities, especially those that drain a lot of energy, like Titania's Razorwing or Inaros's sandstorm. You can only go for 1.25 energy per second drained for max efficiency.

Or you know, make the maps much bigger and packed with detail, which would solve Zephyr's mobility limitation problems and add more content simultaneously.

The point that there is no MK-1 Skana is a bit irrelevant, just pretend he said MK-1 Bo and the point doesn't change.

Channeling abilities can be annoying sometimes. They are huge energy drains and you can't restore energy with energy restores and Zenurik. I am kind of disappointed, but at the same time I kind of know why they did it. But I still don't like it.

The maps aren't really a problem for Zephyr, it's pretty easy to navigate around crowded maps with a Zephyr. Zephyr is actually the frame who gets around these maps easiest barring Titania, but she is so slow that Zephyr technically beats her.

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3 minutes ago, Esorono said:

The maps aren't really a problem for Zephyr, it's pretty easy to navigate around crowded maps with a Zephyr. Zephyr is actually the frame who gets around these maps easiest barring Titania, but she is so slow that Zephyr technically beats her.

I often bump into stuff or respawn after reaching the pathetically low height limit for certain maps, and that's for a single Tailwind.

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Just now, Madho said:

I often bump into stuff or respawn after reaching the pathetically low height limit for certain maps, and that's for a single Tailwind.

Tailwind doesn't really like max duration builds so much on enclosed maps. High efficiency, medium/low duration, high strength, and high run speed is the most efficient way to get through those maps.

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9 minutes ago, Esorono said:

Tailwind doesn't really like max duration builds so much on enclosed maps. High efficiency, medium/low duration, high strength, and high run speed is the most efficient way to get through those maps.

While true, the majority of maps are enclosed. I wanted a flying frame because I really like the idea of soaring in the skies. Sadly, I can only do so with a few specific maps like Corpus Outposts or Grineer Earth tiles.

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1 minute ago, Madho said:

While true, the majority of maps are enclosed. I wanted a flying frame because I really like the idea of soaring in the skies. Sadly, I can only do so with a few specific maps like Corpus Outposts or Grineer Earth tiles.

Titania now fills that role sadly. I wanted Zephyr to fly because it would make those maps even easier to go through, and she could benefit more from a max duration build, as her entire kit barring tornado works well with flight we would have a very convenient speed boost power, landing power, and a 360 degree wind shield that with certain builds can increase her speed and increase projectile speed. But now it is too late, the best mobility skill possible is claimed by the pixie frame who has no skills to back it up. And everyone is blaming her flight for her shortcomings instead of her real problems. She is slow, she has two crowd controls that are overlapping each other in usability, her buffs are pretty much unnoticeable, her guns in Razorwing aren't specialized for flight but for ground movement, her melee weapon isn't AoE either, and she is squishy as all hell if she isn't in Archwing. Her Archwing movement is really the only thing keeping her afloat, both literally and figuratively. I mean sure there are people who just like the damage from her Dex Pixia, but the AoE nuke frames and speed frames are better at killing than the Dex Pixia.

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You know, @Esorono, I'm surprised at the perspective change I've seen in your comments, and I'm really glad we can have this discussion.

Now, to the point. You're right that an improved Dive Bomb and a better Tornado would completely cover the CC if it were done right. So the new 2 really needs to be something that can go two ways; do something she does better, or do something she doesn't do. With the improvements to her abilities, she'll cover Mobility, CC and Defense, with a little light Offense in there too, so I think I'd like to propose the 

Because there's a lot of people that aren't familiar with the rework threads, I'll put my Tornado tweaks in the spoiler below, so people know what I'm talking about.

Spoiler

 

Tornado, AI overhaul:

Tornado attempts two things; damage and area-denial hard CC. Positives: long duration cc on any target it can lift, decent damage when the element type is changed to maximise the damage (a base strength build can do over 2k damage to a target on average, per funnel, about the same as Rhino's Stomp), short range of target seek on funnels can mean that a crowd of enemies is quickly picked up and ragdolled for a decent amount of time. Negatives: very unreliable delivery due the slow movement, small range of seek, ability to travel off the nav-mesh and even out of the map, damage from self and allies is absorbed into the funnels (without boosting their damage) in order to change elemental type and so blocks shots while enemies freely shoot through them, and surviving enemies and loot are thrown at random in all directions when released. Sometimes enemies are not released due to a low ceiling and are pinned to that surface until the ability ends, preventing outside damage due to the funnel's absorb function.

How to fix it? Two main changes: An active dispell to turn it off, and a range limitation to allow buffing the other aspects. The free-roam is what hinders Tornado, as it has to be collectively weaker to prevent it from being better than abilities like Vortex.

Range limitation would allow the following:

1. Faster movement.
2. Full enemy-target-seeking for all enemies that cross the boundary of the ability.
3. Movement fixed to the enemy nav-mesh, no more funnels travelling where the enemy can't go.
4. Equality of damage blocking, if we can't shoot through them, why should the enemy? Between the funnels, yes, but not through.
5. An active release function on the funnels.
6. The air-boost for aim-gliding into a funnel.
7. A zone that can toggle any synergy for other abilities (standing in it, or being over it, triggers better stats on abilities)
8. The Funnel Clouds augment can be buffed so that mini-funnels don't just damage, they stagger enemies to provide a stun while they deal damage, keeping the purpose of the ability as both a CC and a damage dealer, but more biased to the damage than the CC.

I want to explain point 5, too, the 'active' release. I mentioned earlier that enemies can get stuck, and survivors are thrown all over, loot is scattered too. The active release would be just that; they get held for a duration, then the funnel releases them and they have to be targeted by another funnel, the same one can't pick them up twice in a row. The release would come with upward momentum, not outward, so that the current launch is kept, but it's reliable, and lands enemies back in the CC/Damage zone to be picked up again, while loot is also left for players to pick up and not scattered. Skeet-shooting Grineer out of the air is always fun, but better when the pull can be counted on to go in the same general direction each time ^^ Not only is this more reliable CC, it's more reliable damage because multiple funnels can pick up the same enemy in turn, dealing their full damage each time.

Range mods affect the base area (as an additive, not a multiplicative, so you can't get a negative range Tornado cast, just a base plus a smaller number than a positive-range build), Strength affects the damage, Duration affects the time the ability lasts. 

Simple, right? Turns it from a wandering 'maybe' CC/Damage cast to a definitive 'this area is mine' cast akin to Vortex or Tentacle Swarm. To prevent it being over-powered, the actual draw range of each funnel is a lot lower than that of Vortex, and the duration each funnel holds for is less than Tentacle Swarm's (which holds for the entire cast, or until dead) and the ability has to be cancelled before re-cast, it can't have multiples like Vortex or an instant recast like Swarm. On the up-side the potential damage is higher than Tentacle Swarm and the base duration can be longer than Vortex.

My thoughts are that this fulfills that damage/cc role that the ability attempts currently, but more focused and reliable. Sure it can't go wandering off into the map and hit some enemies 50m or so distant from you, but that can be considered a really good thing, as it's not able to escape through doors and interfere with spawns, or go somewhere that it isn't being useful. You can cast it and forget it, exploiting Zephyr's mobility while it does its job covering points, consoles, pods, downed team-members, allowing you to do something else.

Thoughts from anyone else?

 

In any case, with a Tornado fix and a Dive Bomb buff, CC is completely covered. We don't need more (and yes, this is a turn-around from my own re-work ideas on other threads). Even Offense is covered too, as Tornado deals decent damage already, but the AI fix would allow it to deliver all of the damage instead of just some of it, while Dive Bomb is a low-damage high-efficiency cast opens enemies up to finishers or more DPS from weapons.

Mobility is covered by the improved Tailwind and aim-glide (I love the idea of being able to steer aim-glide with Zephyr just as you can steer her in the air usually, and buffing it a little with a few seconds of null-gravity would make me so happy), while Defense is covered by Turbulence very, very well.

If I had a gripe it's that two kinds of projectiles aren't actually deflected by Turbulence currently (that I've found, I've tested a little, but these are the two that annoy me) the first is Swarmer Comba Detron fire, which seeks even through Turbulence deflection, and the second is the Hellion missile barrage, which isn't deflected either for reasons that are unclear. Those are two I'd like to see fixed, because there's no reason for the projectiles to not be deflected by the outer part of Turbulence...

So I'd like to see her new ability do something that only one other ability does: a situational buff. I'd like to say the base ability is for herself and the Augment applies it to her team on cast.

Currently only Mirage has this, where she gets one buff in the light and another in the dark, and her augment then applies it in a radius to her team. I think it's high time another frame gained this kind of mechanic, and Zephyr would be a great choice. On the ground she gets one buff, but in the air she gets a contrasting buff. The 'on cast' nature of applying it to her team is important here because it means she only has to be in range of them for a short time to apply it, and can still go off and be mobile elsewhere, but the buff itself is most applicable on her to encourage solo play as well.

So how's this, I'll stick a suggestion in the spoiler below:

Spoiler

 

Raptor: Zephyr augments herself to become a fiercer predator gaining increased enemy sense and distinct bonuses from her power over the winds depending on whether she stands her ground, or takes to the sky. On the ground Zephyr commands the air to grant additional damage to all her weapons (guaranteed slash procs, punch through, higher crit chance, something like those), while in the air she gains increased mobility and radar range, and grants bonuses to her other abilities (how about a damage boost and guaranteed status chance on Dive Bomb, able to proc puncture, slash or both, Tailwind itself is granted a guaranteed knock-down unless the augment is applied, then it's a bigger ragdoll, Tornado has buffed speed and draw area on the funnels, Turbulence... actually I'm not sure for Turbulence... maybe a range buff to make range builds even bigger and negative range casts back up to normal?)

So, in practice this means you can cast, take to the air to dodge attacks, Dive Bomb into a crowd to spread procs and ragdolls everywhere, and then kill them all with buffed weapon damage. Having the mobility stack in with other mods would make her incredibly more mobile than other frames even without her Tailwind, but would then buff those abilities so that it's still worth casting them. Then having the damage boost gives people reason to play her on the ground too, strategically, and to team it up with Dive Bomb to get the best of both effects.

Synergy created by play-style shifting. And for a team the boost to weapon damage is always, always going to be welcome. I have ideas for making this ability even stronger, but it's a 2 cast, making it too strong is all-too-easy. If we shifted Turbulence to 2, and put this on three, then I'd switch out the ability boosting for 'hitting enemies with her abilities marks them for life-steal on death' like Nezha's ability. And since it was 75 energy I'd make it a team buff on cast as base and use the augment for something better, like 'all allies gain turbulence for the duration' which could be very, very strong.

But that's a maybe, I'll stick to the guaranteed weapon buffs/ability buffs, mobility and radar boost if it's on 2.

 

What about that? Something that boosts her mobility and gives her a potential team interaction, if you mod for it, or just a straight up buff ability if you want to play regular Zephyr.

I'd like to know what people think of these ideas, but I'm not going to go creating another re-work thread for them, hence putting them in here ^^

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4 hours ago, Thaylien said:
  Reveal hidden contents

 

Raptor: Zephyr augments herself to become a fiercer predator gaining increased enemy sense and distinct bonuses from her power over the winds depending on whether she stands her ground, or takes to the sky. On the ground Zephyr commands the air to grant additional damage to all her weapons (guaranteed slash procs, punch through, higher crit chance, something like those), while in the air she gains increased mobility and radar range, and grants bonuses to her other abilities (how about a damage boost and guaranteed status chance on Dive Bomb, able to proc puncture, slash or both, Tailwind itself is granted a guaranteed knock-down unless the augment is applied, then it's a bigger ragdoll, Tornado has buffed speed and draw area on the funnels, Turbulence... actually I'm not sure for Turbulence... maybe a range buff to make range builds even bigger and negative range casts back up to normal?)

So, in practice this means you can cast, take to the air to dodge attacks, Dive Bomb into a crowd to spread procs and ragdolls everywhere, and then kill them all with buffed weapon damage. Having the mobility stack in with other mods would make her incredibly more mobile than other frames even without her Tailwind, but would then buff those abilities so that it's still worth casting them. Then having the damage boost gives people reason to play her on the ground too, strategically, and to team it up with Dive Bomb to get the best of both effects.

Synergy created by play-style shifting. And for a team the boost to weapon damage is always, always going to be welcome. I have ideas for making this ability even stronger, but it's a 2 cast, making it too strong is all-too-easy. If we shifted Turbulence to 2, and put this on three, then I'd switch out the ability boosting for 'hitting enemies with her abilities marks them for life-steal on death' like Nezha's ability. And since it was 75 energy I'd make it a team buff on cast as base and use the augment for something better, like 'all allies gain turbulence for the duration' which could be very, very strong.

But that's a maybe, I'll stick to the guaranteed weapon buffs/ability buffs, mobility and radar boost if it's on 2.

 

What about that? Something that boosts her mobility and gives her a potential team interaction, if you mod for it, or just a straight up buff ability if you want to play regular Zephyr.

I'd like to know what people think of these ideas, but I'm not going to go creating another re-work thread for them, hence putting them in here ^^

This idea is only a slight a turn-off for me. The reasoning? It's really only a damage/survival buff and nothing more. If I wanted that I'd just go play Chroma. However, what I DO like, is that it supports that she's a frame that augments her weapons, rather than outright dealing damage by casting. A Marksman, if you will.

What I would suggest, is for Raptor to create a vortex of wind around your stream of bullets that pulls enemies into your line of fire. Maybe even add some punch through. This would make the skill feel a bit more "Flashy" and like it's actually doing something. It could potentially even make groups start asking for Zephyr, since she'd have strong grouping power. All in all, it gives a bit more CC, feels nice to use, keeps her a Marksman more than a Caster, and she'd become more of a team player.

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10 minutes ago, EchoesOfRain said:

This idea is only a slight a turn-off for me. The reasoning? It's really only a damage/survival buff and nothing more. If I wanted that I'd just go play Chroma. However, what I DO like, is that it supports that she's a frame that augments her weapons, rather than outright dealing damage by casting. A Marksman, if you will.

What I would suggest, is for Raptor to create a vortex of wind around your stream of bullets that pulls enemies into your line of fire. Maybe even add some punch through. This would make the skill feel a bit more "Flashy" and like it's actually doing something. It could potentially even make groups start asking for Zephyr, since she'd have strong grouping power. All in all, it gives a bit more CC, feels nice to use, keeps her a Marksman more than a Caster, and she'd become more of a team player.

See, this suggestion I like. It's the exact reason I wasn't specific about what kind of buff it gave to weapons. Thanks for the support ^^

It reminds me of another one that came for this same ability, when pitched for other people, of giving every primary and secondary a guaranteed blast proc (a blast of air on hit), while it gives every melee a guaranteed slash proc (slicing winds around a blade). So everything around you becomes a bunch of ragdolls that you can then melee hit for large bleed damage.

There are so many ideas for this kind of team buff, and I really like suggesting it to threads. Punch through, slash or puncture procs, any kind of static utility damage boost for weapons on the ground and ability/mobility boosts in the air, or other buffs that could make it more attractive to blend both aerial and ground combat with her.

So, great idea, a kind of Vortex Dive Bomb effect for weapons. I have no idea how it would be implemented, but it's pretty cool.

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On 12/08/2016 at 5:42 PM, Mastikator2 said:

Zephyr was made before Parkour 2.0, when she came out she was the closest thing to flying.

A rework would be cool. They replaced Excals super jump after all. Zephyr is a cool idea but the current implementation is made obsolete by even cooler base game mechanics.

Totally agree... Even if I have a lot of fun playing zephyr using wall jumps and all the parkour 2.0 stuff, that's frustrating to see a monkey flying by my side in his weird cloud :p

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