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When Titania can fly freely, why Zephyr can't?


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1 hour ago, Samotte said:

Totally agree... Even if I have a lot of fun playing zephyr using wall jumps and all the parkour 2.0 stuff, that's frustrating to see a monkey flying by my side in his weird cloud :p

I'll point out that this means Monkey frame is successful. The Monkey King was the ultimate troll character to his enemies, and most of his friends too, and it's exactly his style to be sitting there in cloud-walker waiting for you to notice him up there next to you, then giggle and go back to smacking things with a giant stick.

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11 hours ago, Thaylien said:

You know, @Esorono, I'm surprised at the perspective change I've seen in your comments, and I'm really glad we can have this discussion.

Now, to the point. You're right that an improved Dive Bomb and a better Tornado would completely cover the CC if it were done right. So the new 2 really needs to be something that can go two ways; do something she does better, or do something she doesn't do. With the improvements to her abilities, she'll cover Mobility, CC and Defense, with a little light Offense in there too, so I think I'd like to propose the 

Because there's a lot of people that aren't familiar with the rework threads, I'll put my Tornado tweaks in the spoiler below, so people know what I'm talking about.

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Tornado, AI overhaul:

Tornado attempts two things; damage and area-denial hard CC. Positives: long duration cc on any target it can lift, decent damage when the element type is changed to maximise the damage (a base strength build can do over 2k damage to a target on average, per funnel, about the same as Rhino's Stomp), short range of target seek on funnels can mean that a crowd of enemies is quickly picked up and ragdolled for a decent amount of time. Negatives: very unreliable delivery due the slow movement, small range of seek, ability to travel off the nav-mesh and even out of the map, damage from self and allies is absorbed into the funnels (without boosting their damage) in order to change elemental type and so blocks shots while enemies freely shoot through them, and surviving enemies and loot are thrown at random in all directions when released. Sometimes enemies are not released due to a low ceiling and are pinned to that surface until the ability ends, preventing outside damage due to the funnel's absorb function.

How to fix it? Two main changes: An active dispell to turn it off, and a range limitation to allow buffing the other aspects. The free-roam is what hinders Tornado, as it has to be collectively weaker to prevent it from being better than abilities like Vortex.

Range limitation would allow the following:

1. Faster movement.
2. Full enemy-target-seeking for all enemies that cross the boundary of the ability.
3. Movement fixed to the enemy nav-mesh, no more funnels travelling where the enemy can't go.
4. Equality of damage blocking, if we can't shoot through them, why should the enemy? Between the funnels, yes, but not through.
5. An active release function on the funnels.
6. The air-boost for aim-gliding into a funnel.
7. A zone that can toggle any synergy for other abilities (standing in it, or being over it, triggers better stats on abilities)
8. The Funnel Clouds augment can be buffed so that mini-funnels don't just damage, they stagger enemies to provide a stun while they deal damage, keeping the purpose of the ability as both a CC and a damage dealer, but more biased to the damage than the CC.

I want to explain point 5, too, the 'active' release. I mentioned earlier that enemies can get stuck, and survivors are thrown all over, loot is scattered too. The active release would be just that; they get held for a duration, then the funnel releases them and they have to be targeted by another funnel, the same one can't pick them up twice in a row. The release would come with upward momentum, not outward, so that the current launch is kept, but it's reliable, and lands enemies back in the CC/Damage zone to be picked up again, while loot is also left for players to pick up and not scattered. Skeet-shooting Grineer out of the air is always fun, but better when the pull can be counted on to go in the same general direction each time ^^ Not only is this more reliable CC, it's more reliable damage because multiple funnels can pick up the same enemy in turn, dealing their full damage each time.

Range mods affect the base area (as an additive, not a multiplicative, so you can't get a negative range Tornado cast, just a base plus a smaller number than a positive-range build), Strength affects the damage, Duration affects the time the ability lasts. 

Simple, right? Turns it from a wandering 'maybe' CC/Damage cast to a definitive 'this area is mine' cast akin to Vortex or Tentacle Swarm. To prevent it being over-powered, the actual draw range of each funnel is a lot lower than that of Vortex, and the duration each funnel holds for is less than Tentacle Swarm's (which holds for the entire cast, or until dead) and the ability has to be cancelled before re-cast, it can't have multiples like Vortex or an instant recast like Swarm. On the up-side the potential damage is higher than Tentacle Swarm and the base duration can be longer than Vortex.

My thoughts are that this fulfills that damage/cc role that the ability attempts currently, but more focused and reliable. Sure it can't go wandering off into the map and hit some enemies 50m or so distant from you, but that can be considered a really good thing, as it's not able to escape through doors and interfere with spawns, or go somewhere that it isn't being useful. You can cast it and forget it, exploiting Zephyr's mobility while it does its job covering points, consoles, pods, downed team-members, allowing you to do something else.

Thoughts from anyone else?

 

In any case, with a Tornado fix and a Dive Bomb buff, CC is completely covered. We don't need more (and yes, this is a turn-around from my own re-work ideas on other threads). Even Offense is covered too, as Tornado deals decent damage already, but the AI fix would allow it to deliver all of the damage instead of just some of it, while Dive Bomb is a low-damage high-efficiency cast opens enemies up to finishers or more DPS from weapons.

Mobility is covered by the improved Tailwind and aim-glide (I love the idea of being able to steer aim-glide with Zephyr just as you can steer her in the air usually, and buffing it a little with a few seconds of null-gravity would make me so happy), while Defense is covered by Turbulence very, very well.

If I had a gripe it's that two kinds of projectiles aren't actually deflected by Turbulence currently (that I've found, I've tested a little, but these are the two that annoy me) the first is Swarmer Comba Detron fire, which seeks even through Turbulence deflection, and the second is the Hellion missile barrage, which isn't deflected either for reasons that are unclear. Those are two I'd like to see fixed, because there's no reason for the projectiles to not be deflected by the outer part of Turbulence...

So I'd like to see her new ability do something that only one other ability does: a situational buff. I'd like to say the base ability is for herself and the Augment applies it to her team on cast.

Currently only Mirage has this, where she gets one buff in the light and another in the dark, and her augment then applies it in a radius to her team. I think it's high time another frame gained this kind of mechanic, and Zephyr would be a great choice. On the ground she gets one buff, but in the air she gets a contrasting buff. The 'on cast' nature of applying it to her team is important here because it means she only has to be in range of them for a short time to apply it, and can still go off and be mobile elsewhere, but the buff itself is most applicable on her to encourage solo play as well.

So how's this, I'll stick a suggestion in the spoiler below:

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Raptor: Zephyr augments herself to become a fiercer predator gaining increased enemy sense and distinct bonuses from her power over the winds depending on whether she stands her ground, or takes to the sky. On the ground Zephyr commands the air to grant additional damage to all her weapons (guaranteed slash procs, punch through, higher crit chance, something like those), while in the air she gains increased mobility and radar range, and grants bonuses to her other abilities (how about a damage boost and guaranteed status chance on Dive Bomb, able to proc puncture, slash or both, Tailwind itself is granted a guaranteed knock-down unless the augment is applied, then it's a bigger ragdoll, Tornado has buffed speed and draw area on the funnels, Turbulence... actually I'm not sure for Turbulence... maybe a range buff to make range builds even bigger and negative range casts back up to normal?)

So, in practice this means you can cast, take to the air to dodge attacks, Dive Bomb into a crowd to spread procs and ragdolls everywhere, and then kill them all with buffed weapon damage. Having the mobility stack in with other mods would make her incredibly more mobile than other frames even without her Tailwind, but would then buff those abilities so that it's still worth casting them. Then having the damage boost gives people reason to play her on the ground too, strategically, and to team it up with Dive Bomb to get the best of both effects.

Synergy created by play-style shifting. And for a team the boost to weapon damage is always, always going to be welcome. I have ideas for making this ability even stronger, but it's a 2 cast, making it too strong is all-too-easy. If we shifted Turbulence to 2, and put this on three, then I'd switch out the ability boosting for 'hitting enemies with her abilities marks them for life-steal on death' like Nezha's ability. And since it was 75 energy I'd make it a team buff on cast as base and use the augment for something better, like 'all allies gain turbulence for the duration' which could be very, very strong.

But that's a maybe, I'll stick to the guaranteed weapon buffs/ability buffs, mobility and radar boost if it's on 2.

 

What about that? Something that boosts her mobility and gives her a potential team interaction, if you mod for it, or just a straight up buff ability if you want to play regular Zephyr.

I'd like to know what people think of these ideas, but I'm not going to go creating another re-work thread for them, hence putting them in here ^^

Alright, it does seem we are starting to get similar ideas now, which does make me happy. Though for tornadoes, I would be more happy if they stuck to a certain height when they get sucked in, preferably at the bottom so it is possible to melee and easier to aim at. And spawned in a more uniform way, right now you can kinda guess where they will spawn, but often times by the cast is done, more mobs stacked together right behind you and ignored the group you really needed to CC. Which really makes me sad half the time. If there was a way to manually drag a tornado such as targeting one, holding 4 and dragging it, that would also help immensely.

And yes, increased aimglide and control while aimgliding would be a godsend, not quite as great as flight, but it is a close second, and I could at least work with it. Having the ability to have a slight ascent with it would be great as well. I can't tell you how many times I've misjudged a jump and just slightly went too low to make it, but trying to correct it with Tailwind would throw me off the map, so I'd have to turn around, tailwind away and try again.

Also the raptor buff is a good idea, but I have a suggestion. The ground part sounds pretty good, but I think I have a better idea for the air buff, the movement buffs is good, but instead of increased damage for divebomb and guaranteed status, it gives a high chance of her weapons to land a headshot? It would not only increase her damage in the air quite a bit, but it would also combo with Arcane Consequence which adds a 40% boost to aimglide as well.

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6 minutes ago, Esorono said:

it gives a high chance of her weapons to land a headshot?

No. HS should be rewarded for pinpoint accuracy. Giving a higher chance for it will destroy the idea of landing a HS completely. I am fine with additional damage or crit on HS, but not an increased chance. Why did explosive weapons disregard aiming? They auto headshot.

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Just now, Madho said:

No. HS should be rewarded for pinpoint accuracy. Giving a higher chance for it will destroy the idea of landing a HS completely. I am fine with additional damage or crit on HS, but not an increased chance. Why did explosive weapons disregard aiming? They auto headshot.

It's also much harder to aim for something while flying in the air as well. Most of the times I would have to lead them into the shot while floating about 100 feet away while moving and only having about a 5 second grace time to actually take the shot. Pinpoint accuracy is extremely hard to do in the air, even with aimglide. Here is an example of what I mean.

And I was using a Kulstar here which is basically blow up everything in a basketball court large area and still missed on occasions. Even with hitscans with a bunny hop, it is harder to land a headshot than it would be on the ground. So no, I disagree with you.

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I can appreciate your desire to be airborne like that... however there's more than 1 way to skin a charger.  I feel a little bad for the Titania in the group.

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23 minutes ago, Clowee said:

I can appreciate your desire to be airborne like that... however there's more than 1 way to skin a charger.  I feel a little bad for the Titania in the group.

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I already have a Zephyr dedicated to speed builds, but I tend to enjoy the tailwind/jet stream builds a bit more.

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10 hours ago, Thaylien said:

There are so many ideas for this kind of team buff, and I really like suggesting it to threads. Punch through, slash or puncture procs, any kind of static utility damage boost for weapons on the ground and ability/mobility boosts in the air, or other buffs that could make it more attractive to blend both aerial and ground combat with her.

So, great idea, a kind of Vortex Dive Bomb effect for weapons. I have no idea how it would be implemented, but it's pretty cool.

I am rather hesitant to give guaranteed status effects to weapons as a frame bonus. What you said about aerial vs. grounded combat bonuses sounded like a lot of fun. I would not mind that at all.

On another note, after watching @Esorono's superman video, I was thinking of ways combining tailwind and dive-bomb and came up with a compromise that just might work.

  • Tap - Very similar to the current tailwind, except possibly giving Zephyr some ability to steer.
  • Hold -  Zephyr flies very rapidly in a straight line until she collides with terrain. Dive-bomb's explosion effect is triggered upon hitting terrain. This ability can only be triggered if the reticule is below the horizontal axis.

Originally, I wondered if making the held button usable in any direction an was worthwhile as long as it could be canceled or use energy as you travel, but then I realized that people would have little use for the original tailwind if that happened. I also considered making it only use-able if there was terrain to collide with. As it is, I am still debating whether or not tailwind should have a turning function. Part of me says yes, but the other has played D.Va in Overwatch and hates to imagine having to fly like that at much higher speeds and in rapid bursts.

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4 hours ago, Esorono said:

Pinpoint accuracy is extremely hard to do in the air, even with aimglide. Here is an example of what I mean.

And I was using a Kulstar here which is basically blow up everything in a basketball court large area and still missed on occasions.

First, 5 seconds is definitely more than enough for you to score a HS. I can aimglide for about 6-8 seconds with patagium alone.

Second, you chose an explosive sidearm, which isn't really suitable for pinpoint accuracy. 

Third, you chose to fight Infested, the hardest faction to score a HS because most of them have wobbly heads or the heads are under their bellies.

In conclusion, I don't find this test fair at all.

1 hour ago, Clowee said:

I can appreciate your desire to be airborne like that... however there's more than 1 way to skin a charger.  

 

Then you weren't exactly flying, was it? You pick Zephyr, a frame with 2 abilities dedicated for mobility, and another ability with an augment that also boosts mobility, for her to be played with significantly less mobility? 

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7 minutes ago, Madho said:

First, 5 seconds is definitely more than enough for you to score a HS. I can aimglide for about 6-8 seconds with patagium alone.

Second, you chose an explosive sidearm, which isn't really suitable for pinpoint accuracy. 

Third, you chose to fight Infested, the hardest faction to score a HS because most of them have wobbly heads or the heads are under their bellies.

In conclusion, I don't find this test fair at all.

Then you weren't exactly flying, was it? You pick Zephyr, a frame with 2 abilities dedicated for mobility, and another ability with an augment that also boosts mobility, for her to be played with significantly less mobility? 

It's not the amount of time you can aimglide, it is the point where aimglide fall speed reduction wears off. Also explosives are easier to aim with in the air than hitscans as they hit a large area. The faction is irrelevant in this situation, it is to show that it isn't the easiest thing to hit while in the air. 

Also irrelevant to the point, he was showing that Zephyr is mobile on the ground as well, he didn't show off tailwind being utilized as it was not relevant to the point he was trying to make. Also Zephyr in this video has three mobility abilities. In conclusion, I think you need to figure out what the point of these videos were about.

On another note, after watching @Esorono's superman video, I was thinking of ways combining tailwind and dive-bomb and came up with a compromise that just might work.

  • Tap - Very similar to the current tailwind, except possibly giving Zephyr some ability to steer.
  • Hold -  Zephyr flies very rapidly in a straight line until she collides with terrain. Dive-bomb's explosion effect is triggered upon hitting terrain. This ability can only be triggered if the reticule is below the horizontal axis.

This is the general idea that most people believe should be the combination of Tailwind and Divebomb.

Edited by Esorono
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4 hours ago, Madho said:

No. HS should be rewarded for pinpoint accuracy. Giving a higher chance for it will destroy the idea of landing a HS completely. I am fine with additional damage or crit on HS, but not an increased chance. Why did explosive weapons disregard aiming? They auto headshot.

I agree with this. The powercreep becomes real when I start incorporating arcanes with free headshots.

4 hours ago, Esorono said:

It's also much harder to aim for something while flying in the air as well. Most of the times I would have to lead them into the shot while floating about 100 feet away while moving and only having about a 5 second grace time to actually take the shot. Pinpoint accuracy is extremely hard to do in the air, even with aimglide. Here is an example of what I mean.

While that is true for bullets, AoE weapon is kinda on you for accuracy. 

 

1 hour ago, Karav said:
  • Tap - Very similar to the current tailwind, except possibly giving Zephyr some ability to steer.
  • Hold -  Zephyr flies very rapidly in a straight line until she collides with terrain. Dive-bomb's explosion effect is triggered upon hitting terrain. This ability can only be triggered if the reticule is below the horizontal axis.

This is hardly a new concept and is repeated in almost every Zephyr thread. You should read some of them, there are a couple of great ideas hidden underneath all the bad ones. As a matter of fact, it was suggested in this exact thread again before you.

 

Just a few things I want to point out that everyone can agree on. 

  • Tailwind needs to have an affect on enemies when flying in their path
  • Divebomb needs better scaling
  • Tornado needs better scaling and AI (or programmed consistency)

Controversy

  • Zephyr needs to fly
  • Zephyr needs a drain move (efficiency)
  • Zephyr needs her passive changed.

Guys, we're actually close to agreeing on what should be changed with Zephyr but keep getting distracted by the ^^ controversy from people who don't play the frame properly.

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7 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I agree with this. The powercreep becomes real when I start incorporating arcanes with free headshots.

While that is true for bullets, AoE weapon is kinda on you for accuracy. 

 

This is hardly a new concept and is repeated in almost every Zephyr thread. You should read some of them, there are a couple of great ideas hidden underneath all the bad ones. As a matter of fact, it was suggested in this exact thread again before you.

 

Just a few things I want to point out that everyone can agree on. 

  • Tailwind needs to have an affect on enemies when flying in their path
  • Divebomb needs better scaling
  • Tornado needs better scaling and AI (or programmed consistency)

Controversy

  • Zephyr needs to fly
  • Zephyr needs a drain move (efficiency)
  • Zephyr needs her passive changed.

Guys, we're actually close to agreeing on what should be changed with Zephyr but keep getting distracted by the ^^ controversy from people who don't play the frame properly.

Banshee has a similar, but not quite the same type of power, and is arguably stronger than a chance of being a headshot as it can even stack with a headshot especially with the augment. And yes typically I stick with AoE weapons, but a lot of people are a fan of their bullet guns as well, and the AoE weapons pretty much headshot fairly often so they wouldn't exactly be being buffed very much. But if they are doing what you are doing in that video with say a Twin Grakata, then it would be a bonus to them and it works with arcane consequence. But yes, I can see why this wouldn't be the most popular suggestion. Also I can't say everyone agrees on them, but I think a huge portion of us also agree that tailwind and divebomb should be combined, she should have some sort of buff to her aimglide (updated passive or buff), and that her slow fall passive shouldn't start degrading over time.

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12 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

This is hardly a new concept and is repeated in almost every Zephyr thread. You should read some of them, there are a couple of great ideas hidden underneath all the bad ones. As a matter of fact, it was suggested in this exact thread again before you.

You must not be on the other threads, or you'd see my posts. No, combining them is not new. The debate is over how to do it.

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17 minutes ago, Karav said:

You must not be on the other threads, or you'd see my posts. No, combining them is not new. The debate is over how to do it.

Which is precisely what I'm talking about.

 

Edited by (PS4)RenovaKunumaru
Looks like this has been suggested several times before..I guess how to do it isn't new after all.
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16 hours ago, Neptlude said:

I dont get it my Zephy can fly, even way faster than titania `-`

Yes, your airspeed is faster than Titania's, but is it really flight? I would argue "yes." People are frustrated that Titania has a simpler flight model that allows for more air time. It is simpler when we compare Titania to a helicopter, and Zephyr to a bird or plane. Like helicopters, Titania can hover and maneuver in tight spaces and, low altitudes. For the most part, birds and planes require constant forward movement to stay aloft. They may be able to turn of the engines (or stop flapping) and glide for a while, but they really can't hover. This is Zephyr. Her tailwind is like flapping, while her passive and aim-glide reduce the amount of energy needed to stay aloft. Titania, like a helicopter, has no tools for conserving energy while flying. You can argue she has an aim glide, but it's really only useful when she's doing parkour.

16 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Controversy

  • Zephyr needs to fly
  • Zephyr needs a drain move (efficiency)
  • Zephyr needs her passive changed.

Guys, we're actually close to agreeing on what should be changed with Zephyr but keep getting distracted by the ^^ controversy from people who don't play the frame properly.

Zephyr's flight model and her passive is a single point of contention because her passive is part of her flight model. Those are your views on two major points of contention. Here are mine:

  • Zephyr already flies, but the flight model could use some upgrades.
  • Why would or wouldn't she need a drain move? Where would we put it? Tornado? Turbulence? Whatever new ability is placed in dive-bomb's slot? Turbulence can be a pain to maintain, but with the right mods, it drains slow enough to keep up indefinitely. Tornado, I could see. Some builds render it useless (duration), others allow for spamming. But... the same can be said about turbulence.
  • Why? There are other ways to achieve the same effect as an aim-glide passive. For example: Resetting her fall speed after using tailwind inherently buffs aim-glide duration, thereby increasing air time and mobility.

You're categorization is close, but I think the points of contention seem to fall more along the following lines:

  • Zephyr's flight model
    • Changes to tailwind, dive-bomb and her passive all affect her aerial mobility. Even some tornado suggestions fall under this category. A lot falls under it because it's the entirety of her kit.
  • Zephyr's second ability
    • Does dive-bomb deserve its own button? What should fill the ability slot should it be opened? Do we give team buffs, new attack moves, CC, or something else?
  • Toggled abilities
    • Does Zephyr need them? Which abilities would benefit or suffer from the change?
  • What exactly is Zephyr's theme?
    • Is Zephyr an air mage or a bird? The question may sound ridiculous, but the identity of the frame is something that has to be considered when choosing both skins and abilities.

Wow, this post got long fast. Sorry about the wall.

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9 minutes ago, ReDllStarS said:

Ей просто надо сделать реворк на 1 2 4 способность и сделать настоящего мастера полета 

Yes, but how? ( Да, но как? )

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8 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Which is precisely what I'm talking about.

 

Honestly, I should really update my thread, so I'd say take anything I said in my thread with a grain of salt for the next few hours.

Edit: Okay, done.

Edited by Esorono
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