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Detailed analysis on Fusion Core & Endo


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After @[DE]Rebecca posted an example showing usage of Endo, and reading on the forum about people

  • asking for clarification about converting Fusion Cores into Endo
  • having negative feeling about the conversion
  • talking about increase in Credits cost

I did some data gathering based on:

After doing some computation and extrapolation, this is what I have generated.

ExNWM9A.png

http://i.imgur.com/ExNWM9A.png / https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4t5wZw-lZjDSHlvb3h3Slo1UUk

zXwC0Hxg.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/zXwC0Hxg.jpg / https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4t5wZw-lZjDVlJGOU9JdUtIcnM

For those having difficulty viewing them, you can download and view the HTML version.

Results
Fusion energy to Endo ratio
1 : 2.5
Endo to Credits ratio
1 : 48.3
Fusion energy to Credits ratio (based on R5 core)
1 : ~101.613
Fusion energy to Credits ratio (based on Endo)
1 : 120.75

Summary
There should be no changes when Fusion cores are converted into Endo in term of fusion energy(Provided that any decimal places are taken into consideration in the conversion process).
Credits cost of fusing would be higher in most cases. But we should see it as a tradeoff for much simpler and hassle-free fusing.

Note: These are all done prior to Prime Time #131. Things are subjected to changes!

After Silver Grove update
Green
= DE give extra Endo, Red = DE didn't give enough Endo. All these happened probably due to rounding.
"Endo" column is computed by me, "DE Endo" column is data from game.

wr46d1N.png
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4t5wZw-lZjDai1KWjNidDZsYXc

pin4cX2.png 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4t5wZw-lZjDejMtNy01LUhkMXc

You can use the Dissolve table to check if your cores to endo conversion (If you got a screenshot of your cores beforehand). I checked mine, it seems correct.
If you need help, feel free to ask.

Tool:
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/690547-tool-fusion-cores-to-endo-conversion/

 

Edited by Ditto132
Added some notes, links to higher quality images. Added more data after Silver Grove update and Tool section
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Query. Since old fusion got more expensive the more mods you tried to throw in, would some cases also be decreased in credit consumption? I can understand that compared to only using R5 cores average price is up, but I imagine that it will go down for people like me who used duplicates a lot.

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Just now, Omega-Shadowblade said:

Query. Since old fusion got more expensive the more mods you tried to throw in, would some cases also be decreased in credit consumption? I can understand that compared to only using R5 cores average price is up, but I imagine that it will go down for people like me who used duplicates a lot.

My understanding was that this is the case. Endo will be cheaper than using duplicates.

 

@Ditto132 Thank you so much for doing this. I looked at it for a bit, but couldn't bring myself to do a proper analysis.

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1 minute ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

Query. Since old fusion got more expensive the more mods you tried to throw in, would some cases also be decreased in credit consumption? I can understand that compared to only using R5 cores average price is up, but I imagine that it will go down for people like me who used duplicates a lot.

unless there's a cost to converting duplicates to endo, which there hopefully isn't

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2 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

Query. Since old fusion got more expensive the more mods you tried to throw in, would some cases also be decreased in credit consumption? I can understand that compared to only using R5 cores average price is up, but I imagine that it will go down for people like me who used duplicates a lot.

You are not wrong, as you can see in the 2nd table, using duplicates and certain cores result in better credits consumption.

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Just now, Ditto132 said:

You are not wrong, as you can see in the 2nd table, using duplicates and certain cores result in better credits consumption.

Thank you. My browser has been messing up a bit on forum photos. I saw the chart, looked away, came back and when i went to check the image was broken. 

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2 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

My understanding was that this is the case. Endo will be cheaper than using duplicates.

 

@Ditto132 Thank you so much for doing this. I looked at it for a bit, but couldn't bring myself to do a proper analysis.

You are welcome.
I hope it would help players better understand Endo and clear up some misunderstandings so that DE would not be so stressed.
 :D

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1 minute ago, ShiraHagane said:

unless there's a cost to converting duplicates to endo, which there hopefully isn't

According to Primetime 131, there is no cost in converting excess mods to Endo.

5 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

Query. Since old fusion got more expensive the more mods you tried to throw in, would some cases also be decreased in credit consumption? I can understand that compared to only using R5 cores average price is up, but I imagine that it will go down for people like me who used duplicates a lot.

From what I can see efficiency and cost go hand in hand so it should be something like this: Exact copies > Endo > R5 Cores > U5 Cores > C3 Cores > Mods with similar polarities > Mods with different polarities

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Non-detailed analysis

I opened up the game and tried to fuse the same mod as in the stream(primed bane of corpus) to rank 5.

17 R5 yellow fusion cores was enough to do that and the amount of credits was 53 550 credits. In the video it seems to cost 59 892 credits. So there you have it, it costs more :(. But at least I will be able to use the redundant mods for fusion now. 

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1 minute ago, MadGrekon said:

Non-detailed analysis

I opened up the game and tried to fuse the same mod as in the stream(primed bane of corpus) to rank 5.

17 R5 yellow fusion cores was enough to do that and the amount of credits was 53 550 credits. In the video it seems to cost 59 892 credits. So there you have it, it costs more :(. But at least I will be able to use the redundant mods for fusion now. 

It costs more in certain details try doing the same with common mods it WILL cost a lot more.

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2 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

It costs more in certain details try doing the same with common mods it WILL cost a lot more.

True. I checked with 85 R5 common fusion cores and that would cost me 63 750 credits. So I guess in some way it evens out.

Although if this are the costs maybe its even better considering that we will be able use those miscellaneous mods.

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So, it is cheaper than using duplicate mods, that's fine.

However, most people use R5 cores for fusing energy, and either keep/sell duplicate mods for credits - if you do this, it's practically a ~15% increase in fusion credit cost. Not the end of the world, but considering primed mods already cost over 1,5 million, i'm not happy either.

Spoiler

Still, it could have been even worse

 

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11 minutes ago, Krumplifej said:

However, most people use R5 cores for fusing energy, and either keep/sell duplicate mods for credits

Source? I know a lot of people that fuse dupe mods. I fuse dupe mods a lot more readily than R5s. Mods with 5 or less ranks get ranked up entirely with dupes. In fact, I'm in TS right now asking whether anybody sells dupes for credits and nobody says they do.

Granted, I don't know "most people." I'm just curious why you say that most people sell them.

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1 minute ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Source? I know a lot of people that fuse dupe mods. I fuse dupe mods a lot more readily than R5s. Mods with 5 or less ranks get ranked up entirely with dupes. In fact, I'm in TS right now asking whether anybody sells dupes for credits and nobody says they do.

Granted, I don't know "most people." I'm just curious why you say that most people sell them.

Not a lot of people sell duplicates, but some do - this is why i wrote keep/sell.

Rank5 mods don't really matter - i usually use cores for maxing those too, because it is done with one button, and only costs 12 or so R5s - which is nothing compared to the 500+ required for a primed mod. However, the mods that are hard to max, are rare themselves to begin with - if you know somebody that has maxed a rank10 corrupted or a primed mod using duplicates, ask them, how did they get that much primed/corrupted mods. If they used unwanted same polarity mods, it still would cost an arm and a leg in credits to max them (not that using only R5s is cheap either)

TL:DR i was thinking that most people make rational decisions based on facts, and everybody knows how fusion energy cost/credit cost works (since it is available to everyone on the wiki)

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9 hours ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Source? I know a lot of people that fuse dupe mods. I fuse dupe mods a lot more readily than R5s. Mods with 5 or less ranks get ranked up entirely with dupes. In fact, I'm in TS right now asking whether anybody sells dupes for credits and nobody says they do.

Granted, I don't know "most people." I'm just curious why you say that most people sell them.

@Lord_Azrael Haha. I personally find it not worth it to sell mods for credits, I keep those mods for fusing in the future and to trade to others, gift to some new players.
So far my Vitality and Redirection mods are ranked up by only using duplicates. Fusing using duplicates doesn't result in decimal point complications. (see 2nd table, under duplicate section)

To be honest, I don't have any issues with insufficient credits to use and entirely sure why people having credits issues.
Most of the time, I find myself gaining credits instead of spending credits. Doing any missions doesn't need you to spend credits but reward you with credits, pickups and affinity.
From what I see, some of the ways of spending credits are:

  • Buying blueprint, crafting
  • Trading and tax
  • Buying from Baro
  • Rushing Kubrow stasis
  • Mod fusing
  • Crafting and using restores, ciphers etc

I personally think that people are unnecessarily using energy restores so that they can use their abilities as early as possible and as much as possible. Or to complete a mission in the shortest time possible to save time.
I see pattern that most of the people who complain about lack of resources and credits are those who uses restores frequently. Instead of saving time, hey often ended up spending more time on farming for resources and credits.

As for mod fusing, because of the complexity, most people opted to rank up their mod by using cores. Using duplicates would result in 100% fusing efficiency and the lowest credits consumption, while cores only result in 50% efficiency and increase in credits consumption proportionally to rarity and rank.

The way I see selling mods for credits instead of trading away or fusing is like selling vaulted prime items for ducats instead of trading them for plat or other items.
The only way to get fusion energy is from cores and mods, similarly the only way to get prime items is from void/key/relics.
Why would I trade something that is more limited to another thing that could be obtain more easily such as credits?

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12 hours ago, MadGrekon said:

Non-detailed analysis

I opened up the game and tried to fuse the same mod as in the stream(primed bane of corpus) to rank 5.

17 R5 yellow fusion cores was enough to do that and the amount of credits was 53 550 credits. In the video it seems to cost 59 892 credits. So there you have it, it costs more :(. But at least I will be able to use the redundant mods for fusion now. 

@MadGrekon It would benefit everyone if you could give more feedback on how I could improve and make it more detailed.

Btw, you would only need 16 R5 cores and 50400 credits to rank up a primed mod to rank 5.

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34 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

@MadGrekon It would benefit everyone if you could give more feedback on how I could improve and make it more detailed.

Btw, you would only need 16 R5 cores and 50400 credits to rank up a primed mod to rank 5.

Oops. you are right, it only needs 16 R5 cores to rank it up to rank 5.

Since your aim is to compare Fusion core to Endo I would first make a table to compare it with the Endo values.

For this I would recommend using rank 5 of primed mod as that seems to be the perfect rank for R5 rare fusion cores(16 R5 fusion cores). Almost no excess of energy and that's useful when comparing it to Endo.Then measure how many R5 uncommon fusion cores, R3 common fusion cores would be required to reach the same rank. If you have a lot of other mods, measure the amount of common mods with the same polarity and then with different polarity. That should result in numbers that you will be able to use to compare with the future endo system.

Maybe you should also record how much progress 25 and 50 R5 rare fusion cores get. This would be useful when comparing the endo rewards from sortie to fusion core rewards from current sortie.

Record the number of mods required and credit cost. Then compare those results with the endo result(1200 endo and 59 892 credits). The END. 

This should result in a more visual representation of efficiency difference between 2 systems. Remember that a random common mod is worth 5 endo so you could make a special calculation when it comes to difference between using mods with the same polarity and with different polarity and how that changes with Endo system.

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2 hours ago, MadGrekon said:

Oops. you are right, it only needs 16 R5 cores to rank it up to rank 5.

Since your aim is to compare Fusion core to Endo I would first make a table to compare it with the Endo values.

For this I would recommend using rank 5 of primed mod as that seems to be the perfect rank for R5 rare fusion cores(16 R5 fusion cores). Almost no excess of energy and that's useful when comparing it to Endo.Then measure how many R5 uncommon fusion cores, R3 common fusion cores would be required to reach the same rank. If you have a lot of other mods, measure the amount of common mods with the same polarity and then with different polarity. That should result in numbers that you will be able to use to compare with the future endo system.

Maybe you should also record how much progress 25 and 50 R5 rare fusion cores get. This would be useful when comparing the endo rewards from sortie to fusion core rewards from current sortie.

Record the number of mods required and credit cost. Then compare those results with the endo result(1200 endo and 59 892 credits). The END. 

This should result in a more visual representation of efficiency difference between 2 systems. Remember that a random common mod is worth 5 endo so you could make a special calculation when it comes to difference between using mods with the same polarity and with different polarity and how that changes with Endo system.

@MadGrekon I have already created multiple tables but only posted 2 of them.
The 2nd table (link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4t5wZw-lZjDVlJGOU9JdUtIcnM ) contain most of the information:

  • Rarity and rank of the mod to rank up to
  • Fusion energy required
  • Number of fusion cores required for different types of cores
  • Excess amount of Energy/Endo (in bracket) that would result in using certain cores
  • Amount of credits required when using a particular fusing method.
  • Last few columns (containing red/green color text) show comparison of credits consumption when using certain cores to Endo.

I filtered out to only show fusing using the same duplicates (100% energy efficiency), as fusing using different polarity(25% energy efficiency) would be much worse than using Cores/Endo.

Thanks for your feedback, they are helpful and allow me to see things I missed out. :D
I would probably add in more data/tables when I am feeling better.
Feel free to list down what you would like to see and will try to see what I can do.

Edited by Ditto132
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I noticed that sorties rewards are still mostly the same. If you do the math for the given 2000/4000 endo rewards compared to the old 25/50 R5 rewards, you can see that an old R5 core is worth exactly 80 endo. This isn't related to credit cost, but it is something I wanted to know.

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8 hours ago, (PS4)adrian80 said:

Does that mean that all mods give the same energy as if they were all actual duplicates (in the old system)?

4 energy from unranked common mods, for example.

@(PS4)adrian80 The amount of fusion energy(or Endo now) is determined by the Rarity and the Rank of the mod. See Mod Dissolve Data table.
If you are still unsure, you can ask me again.

5 hours ago, Endorphinz said:

I noticed that sorties rewards are still mostly the same. If you do the math for the given 2000/4000 endo rewards compared to the old 25/50 R5 rewards, you can see that an old R5 core is worth exactly 80 endo. This isn't related to credit cost, but it is something I wanted to know.

@Endorphinz Based on my computation before Silver Grove, R5 core is worth 77.5 Endo. Prime Time and Dev stream have confirmed that my computations are rather accurate.
The major differences are the sortie rewards, DE gave extra Endo based on my computation.

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6 hours ago, Ditto132 said:

@(PS4)adrian80 The amount of fusion energy(or Endo now) is determined by the Rarity and the Rank of the mod. See Mod Dissolve Data table.
If you are still unsure, you can ask me again.

Thanks Ditto. It looks like mods are converted as if they were mods with matching polarity.

So for us console Tenno, it's worthwhile to fuse any actual duplicate mods beforehand... to get double the energy.

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7 hours ago, (PS4)adrian80 said:

Thanks Ditto. It looks like mods are converted as if they were mods with matching polarity.

So for us console Tenno, it's worthwhile to fuse any actual duplicate mods beforehand... to get double the energy.

or rank up mods with R5 cores if you want to save credits.

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