Forum Elitism

[Trylobyte]

So this is a thing I've noticed, especially in the Gameplay Feedback forum, that should probably be brought to the attention of the forums and their population.

 

There's a not insignificant percentage of the forum population that are elitists.  While this is not surprising because forums contain a disproportionately large percentage of the most invested, dedicated players, those same players need to remember they are not the majority.  I've read so many threads on Gameplay Feedback where the most common 'suggestion' has been some variant of 'Stop sucking,' 'Learn to play,' or 'The game is too easy' that even I'm starting to lose faith in the forum population's ability to understand that other people might not have the skill, gear, money, or time that they do.  This sort of attitude I see remarkably often discourages new players from leaving feedback since they read through other threads and suspect, often correctly, they'll be brushed off, told how easy it is with X frame or Y weapon they can't possibly have yet and won't for the next few weeks because they have a job and a busy real life, or simply told to 'learn to play.'   Further, if DE balances things based off the opinion of the forum majority, whom is generally more skilled, more invested, and more equipped than the average Steam freebie account, they're going to swiftly wind up with a small, insular, elitist community where new players are generally looked down upon because they can't play at a high level right off the bat.  That sort of community can't sustain a game.

 

It's great that you can solo these new defense alerts, really.  I like hearing that you have a reliable, competent, and well-equipped group of players to run things with, where you can coordinate tactics and strategy beforehand.  I have a small group like that myself, and I love it.  I'm glad you have the mechanical, technical, and strategic skills to get through the hardest content the game has to offer with under-geared equipment and warframes.  All I ask is that you remember most people don't and that complaints about the difficulty of some things aren't invalid just because you don't have a problem with them.

 

Thank you.

[RyuhoTheDragon]

You get a vote up.

[ValiantCorvus]

Complaints about difficulty are valid because nothing is really that difficult yet. It's not really elitism by itself, just depends on how people word it.

[Slayblaze]

My main concern, rather than the mere fact that they exist, is that DE then balances the game around elitists or implements their ideas. It's not a game-breaking problem (so far) but DE would be better served by ignoring the elitist mentality. DE has already caved to elitist requests with disastrous results, and the "design council" is a horrible idea in practice, although theoretically on paper it might seem good. Would rather see that trend not continue, but it probably will.

[baobab]

One up vote from me.

[direcyphre]

Seems you're fairly new here, so I'm not quite sure you grasp the scope of how these forums flow. Generally speaking, somewhere someone has posted a particular topic that may or may not pertain to most new (or uneducated) player questions, with the exception of perhaps a rudimentary set of tutorials being necessary in the near future (Foundry, mod fusion, etc).

 

If what you're complaining about are responses to complaints about the current defense alert 'event', then all it really boils down to is that new players starting out will probably not make it to a 20th wave of any defense. Much like those who start a game at the end of a special event, chances are you just didn't make it soon enough to participate, but by no means does an event need to cater to all levels of all players at any point. New players should not be attempting end game level content and expecting to succeed with relative ease, this we all know.

 

And perhaps some people make rude comments, but that is more who they are and does not constitute elitism on some grand scale.

[ValiantCorvus]

My main concern, rather than the mere fact that they exist, is that DE then balances the game around elitists or implements their ideas.

Huh? When did this happen?

Not really understanding what you mean by this.

[Niryco]

Complaints about difficulty are valid because nothing is really that difficult yet. It's not really elitism by itself, just depends on how people word it.

However the problem is that newer players would find it more difficult if the game became more difficult. If say a portion became more difficult, less people would try that area too, eventually the game would split into 3 types of community of noobs, average and those who want more difficult content. Now it is simply noobs and non-noobs players. Having too much community split would satisfy the whole crowd but it would increase the load of work for developers as there would be too much niche.

 

Not only is it more content for the developers to build, but overall the older players will have a bigger voice without needing to say much and thus eventually it builds quite alot of suggestion scrapping for higher level players and neglect lower level players. It works around the idea of player toxicity, that the more competent players that stay would make the game more toxic and thus less playable by neutral players(new ones)

[Advanced-]

Or you can look at both sides of the issue.

On the other side, if DE continues to make the game easier and easier, what little challenge is left will be gone.

At that point, the game will just become boring. A lot of people on the opposite side don't want an easy game becoming even easier.

And yes, It is easy if you can get a normal group with 4 people that know their roles.

If someone thinks a suggestion is bad because that player is NEW and doesn't have the proper gear/equipment/knowledge.. than that is a very real reason to state a suggestion is bad.

I'm not going to go into WoW and in the 1st two weeks of playing, tell players that have been playing for months/years what's good,bad,OP and needs to be changed. I'll let the experienced players that know the game inside and out handle that :)

[Niryco]

Or you can look at both sides of the issue.

On the other side, if DE continues to make the game easier and easier, what little challenge is left will be gone.

At that point, the game will just become boring. A lot of people on the opposite side don't want an easy game becoming even easier.

And yes, It is easy if you can get a normal group with 4 people that know their roles.

If someone thinks a suggestion is bad because that player is NEW and doesn't have the proper gear/equipment/knowledge.. than that is a very real reason to state a suggestion is bad.

I'm not going to go into WoW and in the 1st two weeks of playing, tell players that have been playing for months/years what's good,bad,OP and needs to be changed. I'll let the experienced players that know the game inside and out handle that :)

Thus overall balance is hard to achieve.

[Notso]

Seems you're fairly new here, so I'm not quite sure you grasp the scope of how these forums flow. Generally speaking, somewhere someone has posted a particular topic that may or may not pertain to most new (or uneducated) player questions, with the exception of perhaps a rudimentary set of tutorials being necessary in the near future (Foundry, mod fusion, etc).

 

If what you're complaining about are responses to complaints about the current defense alert 'event', then all it really boils down to is that new players starting out will probably not make it to a 20th wave of any defense. Much like those who start a game at the end of a special event, chances are you just didn't make it soon enough to participate, but by no means does an event need to cater to all levels of all players at any point. New players should not be attempting end game level content and expecting to succeed with relative ease, this we all know.

 

And perhaps some people make rude comments, but that is more who they are and does not constitute elitism on some grand scale.

 

I agree with this. In my view, the Weekend Events are not [and shouldn't be] designed to cater to new players, they're designed to keep older players coming back to the game and give them something fun to do.

 

 

However the problem is that newer players would find it more difficult if the game became more difficult. If say a portion became more difficult, less people would try that area too, eventually the game would split into 3 types of community of noobs, average and those who want more difficult content. Now it is simply noobs and non-noobs players. Having too much community split would satisfy the whole crowd but it would increase the load of work for developers as there would be too much niche.

 

Not only is it more content for the developers to build, but overall the older players will have a bigger voice without needing to say much and thus eventually it builds quite a lot of suggestion scrapping for higher level players and neglect lower level players. It works around the idea of player toxicity, that the more competent players that stay would make the game more toxic and thus less playable by neutral players (new ones)

 

I don't think many people want the difficulty of the game to be increased so much that new players struggle on Mercury. We just want the curve which represents mission difficulty against mission distance from Terminus to be steeper than it is at the moment. Currently the only way to experience remotely challenging content [for a player who has been around for say, 100-150 hours of game time] is to find a T3 Void key, or find a competent squad to play DT3 Defense missions.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Notso

[Advanced-]

Thus overall balance is hard to achieve.

Right.

Which is why you can't discount both new players and old.

But you can't complain if the experienced players are stating a suggestion is bad that was made by a person who started playing 1 week ago, only plays 2 hours a day and only has 1 or 2 Wareframes so he doesn't know how balanced all the different Warframes actually are.

^ That's essentially what the OP is saying.

Balance the game around new players who don't have the time, the skill, the gear or the money because they are the majority of the players. (His words)

I disagree, I say balance the game around real balance and not a specific player base.

[Notso]

Right.

Which is why you can't discount both new players and old.

But you can't complain if the experienced players are stating a suggestion is bad that was made by a person who started playing 1 week ago, only plays 2 hours a day and only has 1 or 2 Wareframes so he doesn't know how balanced all the different Warframes actually are.

^ That's essentially what the OP is saying.

Balance the game around new players who don't have the time, the skill, the gear or the money because they are the majority of the players. (His words)

I disagree, I say balance the game around real balance and not a specific player base.

 

However older players generally have a better sense of the "real balance". Although there are some truly hopeless cases I grant you.

[Vyeth]

After reading through countless threads about buffing the grakata and why mag is so useless, I'd have to say that balance is always based on the preference of the person complaining.. Not necessarily for the overall benefit of the game.. Why would someone pick Mag or Loki and expect to be awesome damage dealers with their powersets? But when they do, they get on the forums complaining that the frame is not up to THEIR standards..

 

Elitism to me refers to when a player sees himself above the content in such a way that he wants the game to cater to him while separating himself from the rest of the player base.. Ya know, the guys who drop 300 bucks into a game and demand personal servers, rooms, or settings for only them to enjoy..

 

I always thought the Grakata was fine, but the elitist set out to prove why it wasn't worth THEIR time therefore needing to be severely changed before they feel they can waste their time with such a weapon..

[Advanced-]

However older players generally have a better sense of the "real balance". Although there are some truly hopeless cases I grant you.

That's what I was saying.

Older players have a better sense of "real balance". Thus when they tell the player that have been playing for 1 week that his suggest is bad because he doesn't have the proper gear or warframe or level.... Then he is correct, the suggestion is bad because something already exists to solve the issue.

Long story short, Experienced players should have more say then new players when it comes to suggestions.

It's not elitism, it's knowledge of the game.

[Slayblaze]

It has nothing to do with being a new player or being an old player. To be honest, there's more of an issue with elitist attitudes with newer players than with those of us who've been here since the beginning. At least in this community it's true. Generally speaking the ones who've been playing a long time and seen all the ups and downs, nerfs and buffs, have a better perspective and are a bit less confrontational (for lack of a better word) than the large influx of new players who play a couple weeks and think they know how best to balance the weapons and frames and the game itself, and then start new threads that get tons of upvotes from the other new players who've only been playing two weeks.

 

Slayblaze, on 23 Jun 2013 - 1:54 PM, said:

My main concern, rather than the mere fact that they exist, is that DE then balances the game around elitists or implements their ideas.

Huh? When did this happen?

Not really understanding what you mean by this.

 

You're not? Then perhaps you've not been paying attention to the previous se7en months. There have been so many nerfs and incorrect balance changes made based on "community feedback" (eg elitists) that I literally can not even begin to list them all. Maybe someday I will compile a full list of the errors that have been made, because it would be a worthy cause, but today is not that day.

[alocrius]

And then there is the reality that this is in fact and practice an easy game, within the continuum of existing games.  At the risk of sounding like an elitist, if you have played a variety of games across the spectrum of whats on offer for pc 3rd person, 1st person, mmo type games this is on the level of arcade hack and slash, which I would put at Tier 1 out of 3 difficulty.  I'm not saying this to chastise you. I'm just pointing out because it's hard for you doesn't mean it's a difficult game.  I doubt its a minority who feel this game is too easy either. 

[happyfunba11]

When I say the game is easy, I take it for granted that people will understand I mean that under a few conditions. If you are new, the game will be slower and more challenging. That will change as you get mods and different frames. Not get better, not understand the game more, just as you get more mods/different frames. I'm also not saying those other things won't help. The other way to make the game challenging is to not use those mods. That's about it.

 

I started out thinking this game was challenging and skill based. Then I realized how far the mods go. 220% extra damage on your sidearm that shoots twice or three times a click. A button that kills or disables everything in a wide area is a great panic skill when you can only do it once. But then you can do it 3 or 4 times, wait a minute, now you can do it 3 or 4 times again.

 

I'm not insulting new players. I know how the progression starts (did it twice). I was mistaken about the type of game this was and got frustrated as it became clear it was not ever going to be the game I thought it was. So if I've said something that made someone frustrated or turned them off the game, sorry.

 

That said, they say they will introduce difficulty selection. I'm interested to see how that goes.

 

edit to add:

 

If you found yourself in one of the events this weekend, well... :)

Edited June 23, 2013 by happyfunba11

[Mainabi]

 

I don't think many people want the difficulty of the game to be increased so much that new players struggle on Mercury. We just want the curve which represents mission difficulty against mission distance from Terminus to be steeper than it is at the moment. Currently the only way to experience remotely challenging content [for a player who has been around for say, 100-150 hours of game time] is to find a T3 Void key, or find a competent squad to play DT3 Defense missions.

I can only agree to it

 

I'm fine if it's super easy to start with, but I wish a better scaling in levels and fights, (reason why I've suggested an overhaul for infested)

easy to learn + hard to master, that's actually how it should be, but right now it's not hard to master, just annoying to master since you face the same enemies with lvl 1, while you get stronger the enemies remain the same.... even after 300h it's the same enemies, just with higher HP, which doesn't make them harder to deal with, just more annoying.

[Daffan]

The game needs challenge to reward time investment, or else it becomes stale way to quick. They already STATED themselves they didin't wish that people got everything so easily and quickly (cant remember where) but it's too late now. Also they said they wouldn't nerf weapons anymore, so now everyone can get really uber weapons , the content is quite trivial because some warframes are so good at a lot of things + synergy and other warframes clearly just suck.

 

Theorycrafting and elite players come with every game and no game can really hide from it. It's up to you to take advantage of the information people give if you don't know whats going on. 

Edited June 23, 2013 by Daffan

[Un1ted]

It's all part of the Beta testing process. DE has made it clear that they want feedback and input from the player community on how they'll build their game, it's been like that from the beginning. And it's been stated many times that WF would not be where it is today without the support and input of the community. It seems like DE relies heavily on the funding from players rather than other autonomous financial sources and therefore DE feels obligated to implement features and balance change that seem popular.

 

Many of what people refer to as elitists are just the most vocal post-spammers that seem to have the attitude that they know better than the rest of us common folk. So what ends up happening is the squeaky wheels get the oil.

 

The non-elitists just need to speak up more often and let their voices be heard.

[VileRocK]

Well said! +1

[W4RM4CHIN3]

+1

[Notso]

That's what I was saying.Older players have a better sense of "real balance". Thus when they tell the player that have been playing for 1 week that his suggest is bad because he doesn't have the proper gear or warframe or level.... Then he is correct, the suggestion is bad because something already exists to solve the issue.Long story short, Experienced players should have more say then new players when it comes to suggestions.It's not elitism, it's knowledge of the game.

Yeah sorry I wasn't quite sure if you meant that or not

[Qynchou]

Sooo you have jobs, you have real life, etc etc youre all very busy and very important IRL, I get that.

 

So you cant spend 10 hours a day in warframe to get uber gear to be able to solo anything. Okay. 

 

So you want to invest 1 hour into the game a day but have the same ability to play through content as a person that invests 10 hours? That sounds so fair and makes so much sense.

 

This is a pve game where you grind for stuff. This isnt angry birds where you can sit down to take a s*** on the toilet and play for 5 minutes and achieve something. Investing 1 hour into the game a day will not and SHOULDNT allow you to roflstomp through T3 solo or do pluto defenses. Theres plenty of lower level planets where you will have acess to 95% of the mods and theres plenty of bosses that do not require imba gear to farm.