Forum Elitism

[Trylobyte]

First off, wow, hadn't expected such a response or debate to pick up here.  I'm glad for it though, since it helps clear the air a bit between various aspects of the community and see where everyone lies, so to speak.

 

I also see I need to clarify what I mean a little bit when I refer to elitists, as well as to my own expectations.  My problem isn't with the difficulty or lack thereof; I agree that the game as a whole skews easy (I've already done 3-man T3s in an under-leveled, no-potato frame with dodgy weapons) but I also think it has some annoying elements that, while not necessarily difficult, make the game frustrating (Infested stagger-locking plus Ancient Disruptors, Grineer Commanders teleporting you halfway across the level, etc).  I definitely think the game could stand to improve by making some things more difficult, so long as it's done in a good way and not just by making existing stuff even harder to kill.  But that's not my issue.

 

I'm also aware that veteran players are more likely than newer players to have good balance suggestions because they've experienced more of the game and for a longer period of time.  Newer players don't have the depth nor breadth of experience (usually) to make good calls on how the game is and is not balanced.  But you can't ignore their concerns either, since new players are the future of the game.  If newbies as a group are getting consistently thrashed by one area, if they're being constantly put down in events they feel they should be able to participate in, if they have issues with one or more special mobs, that is a valid concern.  Balance doesn't just mean balancing for the upper tier of players who have a wide variety of gear.  It also means balancing for the poor guy who just got his freebie account off Steam, picked Mag because it looked cool, and is now getting his face beaten in every time he meets an Ancient Disruptor (for example) because he doesn't know how to block or dodge the energy/shield drain and can't find its unintuitive weak point.

 

My issue is that there is a subset of people who are especially visible (and vocal) here who seem to believe that they are the all-important fulcrum that the game should be balanced around, with their level of time, investment, skill, aptitude, and equipment.  These are the people who don't understand why a three-week-old player doesn't have 4 different frames with potatoes and a max-level Serration on a Gorgon since they certainly did.  They feel that new players never have valid concerns because for them (with their high-level mods, sentinels, knowledge of odd critical hit points, clanmates or friends to help them, etc) nothing is difficult.  Their response to almost everything is simply 'Learn to play' or 'Stop being a noob' because they either don't or won't remember the times before they had all that knowledge, all that bling, all those friends.

 

In short, I'm not posting to complain about difficulty or about vets vs. noobs, I'm just posting to point out the particularly high rate of loud, vocal 'elitist' players who refuse to accept that anyone else might have a point because they personally don't have a problem with the issue.  They don't give advice, they don't evaluate anything objectively, they don't stop and think, they just type 'L2P' and click Post.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Trylobyte

[Mhak]

OP sounds a little elitist to be honest, acting like he's speaking for a silent majority or something.

 

The people who ask for *more* difficulty are equally as valid as the people asking for less, and pretending that you have a silent majority on your side without really anything to back that up isn't very strong support for you. You may have a lot of new players on your side, granted. Thing about new players is as they get experience, a lot of their old opinions of things that were challenging suddenly change into "this is easier now that I understand it." A lot of people see this game as way too easy, and when somebody walks in and says "Make it easier! I haven't played very much and would like seriously large aspects of this game to be trivialized!" some people get irked by it. Not because of elitism, but because someone is basically asking for DE to directly reduce the enjoyment some people get out of this game by making it even easier.

 

There are people who don't enjoy hearing people asking for the game to be made easier, just as others don't enjoy them trying to counter their complaints of difficulty. If you view this as elitism instead of an opinion completely, 100% valid as you're own, well...all opinions on the internet are equally worthless. I want this game to be way harder. Sorry. No elitism involved.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Mhak

[Un1ted]

OP sounds a little elitist to be honest, acting like he's speaking for a silent majority or something.

...

 I want this game to be way harder. Sorry. No elitism involved.

 

I didn't read it that way at all. He was just saying that responding to other players grievances with answers like "you're just bad" or "get good" or "PEBKAC" or "learn to play" or whatever other snide and condescending replies - instead of explaining logically why the player's grievances are incorrect - are a trend that seems to be gaining some steam on these forums. It's a trend that is hurtful to the community, and thereby to the game itself in the longrun.

 

I think that was his main point.

[Grandarex]

My experience with this forum is completely different.

I asked many questions and put forth solid suggestions and never received an immature response. 

 

The main concern here seems to be that the new players can't get through 'difficult' part of the game, and they are met with condescending response, such as "L2P". 

 

Although I don't wish to sound like one of those 'elitists', Learning to Play is exactly what you have to do to make progress.

 

Listen,

This game is in RPG genre. 

Meaning, it's all about character progression and becoming stronger to kill stronger enemies. 

If you hit a brick wall and can't progress through the next area, it simply means you aren't geared enough or strong enough.

In response, you simply need to take a step back and 'grind' for better gear and more levels before challenging that hard area again.

 

That is what you need to learn. 

How the RPG element works and how game mechanism is played out.

It's not a hard concept. 

[Mainabi]

to the op, actually about the topic with newbies, the problem isn't that they talk about their concerns, they simply bake a new thread without checking the oven if there are older bhreads, someday the oven gets full and you can't stick another bhread in it since people will get mad reading the same stuff over and over although the topic got nom nomd all over already


i think im hungry

Edited June 24, 2013 by SeiraSunmin

[Zareek]

Delusions of grandeur  ~

[Rhorge]

Further, if DE balances things based off the opinion of the forum majority, whom is generally more skilled, more invested, and more equipped than the average Steam freebie account, they're going to swiftly wind up with a small, insular, elitist community where new players are generally looked down upon because they can't play at a high level right off the bat.  That sort of community can't sustain a game.

No, they will end up with a well balanced game that has a well developed endgame and a clear line that separates it from low level areas. Also, an elitist community supported games like Dark Souls and Demon's Souls pretty well, keeping dedicated players hooked in for a long time and giving new players something to strive for. Not all games need to be accessible for 2-hours-a-week players. Games should target specific audiences, that way you pick the game that suits you, not flip a coin to decide which generic clone of the same archetype to play next.

[TunaMayo]

What we need is a switch, or a difficulty choice in lobby. That way the more "skilled" (better geared up) players can choose to play on harder difficulties whilst newer players can glide through on easier difficulties. I don't believe in having certain missions or planets being another step up or another difficulty as then you have the potential for the less able players to effectively be locked out of those missions and planets as they are simply too hard for them.

 

I do think however that higher difficulty should reap better rewards, but nothing drastic or game changing. Perhaps a very slight increase in rare % drops, or a decrease in warframe ability % drops and an increase in fusion core % drops with an increase in rare fusion core % drops. I prefer the second option as it means that new players can play said area at a comfortable difficulty, obtaining the mods they need, whereas players further a long in game can play at a difficulty they prefer and earn the fusion cores they need to upgrade their mods.

 

TL:DR difficulty options should be implemented.

[BETAOPTICS]

I really don't use feedback forum or players helping players but in game I try my best to help out. On a rare occasion I will be rude but I will never attack other person unless I see a need for justice. For example I once met a racist player who said " Russians are ugly " I admit it it right here, I hate racism to the bottom of my heart and yes, it is racism. Racism is not only races even if the words seems to give you that kind of thought about it. Any cultural discrimination is racism according to U.N. Other time was people who acted dou&e to everyone right from the beginning. I can't remember other times during my 2 months gameplay time.
 

Edited June 23, 2013 by BETAOPTICS

[gunsmoke77]

Why not try helping the NOOBS out some time just once a day hell i do gets them whatting play the game when see all the cool warframes there can get over time and as for this forum have you ever seen SMNC forum thats a $&*&*#(%& place ever ive seen this forum is good and wins my vote ;)

[Gigatron-Prime]

So this is a thing I've noticed, especially in the Gameplay Feedback forum, that should probably be brought to the attention of the forums and their population.

 

There's a not insignificant percentage of the forum population that are elitists.  While this is not surprising because forums contain a disproportionately large percentage of the most invested, dedicated players, those same players need to remember they are not the majority.  I've read so many threads on Gameplay Feedback where the most common 'suggestion' has been some variant of 'Stop sucking,' 'Learn to play,' or 'The game is too easy' that even I'm starting to lose faith in the forum population's ability to understand that other people might not have the skill, gear, money, or time that they do.  This sort of attitude I see remarkably often discourages new players from leaving feedback since they read through other threads and suspect, often correctly, they'll be brushed off, told how easy it is with X frame or Y weapon they can't possibly have yet and won't for the next few weeks because they have a job and a busy real life, or simply told to 'learn to play.'   Further, if DE balances things based off the opinion of the forum majority, whom is generally more skilled, more invested, and more equipped than the average Steam freebie account, they're going to swiftly wind up with a small, insular, elitist community where new players are generally looked down upon because they can't play at a high level right off the bat.  That sort of community can't sustain a game.

 

It's great that you can solo these new defense alerts, really.  I like hearing that you have a reliable, competent, and well-equipped group of players to run things with, where you can coordinate tactics and strategy beforehand.  I have a small group like that myself, and I love it.  I'm glad you have the mechanical, technical, and strategic skills to get through the hardest content the game has to offer with under-geared equipment and warframes.  All I ask is that you remember most people don't and that complaints about the difficulty of some things aren't invalid just because you don't have a problem with them.

 

Thank you.

I suggest you don't leave Mercury noob.

[Daffan]

Sooo you have jobs, you have real life, etc etc youre all very busy and very important IRL, I get that.

 

So you cant spend 10 hours a day in warframe to get uber gear to be able to solo anything. Okay. 

 

So you want to invest 1 hour into the game a day but have the same ability to play through content as a person that invests 10 hours? That sounds so fair and makes so much sense.

 

This is a pve game where you grind for stuff. This isnt angry birds where you can sit down to take a s*** on the toilet and play for 5 minutes and achieve something. Investing 1 hour into the game a day will not and SHOULDNT allow you to roflstomp through T3 solo or do pluto defenses. Theres plenty of lower level planets where you will have acess to 95% of the mods and theres plenty of bosses that do not require imba gear to farm.

[escape123]

This is a good post by OP

[Rivy]

Sooo you have jobs, you have real life, etc etc youre all very busy and very important IRL, I get that.

 

So you cant spend 10 hours a day in warframe to get uber gear to be able to solo anything. Okay. 

 

So you want to invest 1 hour into the game a day but have the same ability to play through content as a person that invests 10 hours? That sounds so fair and makes so much sense.

 

This is a pve game where you grind for stuff. This isnt angry birds where you can sit down to take a s*** on the toilet and play for 5 minutes and achieve something. Investing 1 hour into the game a day will not and SHOULDNT allow you to roflstomp through T3 solo or do pluto defenses. Theres plenty of lower level planets where you will have acess to 95% of the mods and theres plenty of bosses that do not require imba gear to farm.

Regardless of the content of your post, I'm pretty sure that's the attitude the OP is complaining about.

[Niryco]

Guys lets stop targetting people on their attitude, it is true elitism exist everywhere and there is nothing wrong with it. What OP is trying to get isn't the attitude of elitist but the short lines they use to criticize newer players. Some are more quick to judge and criticize with ignorant lines as posted by op. So the question is when can these ignorant lines stopped being used?

[Blatantfool]

 Hard to tell a guy not to feel strongly about his opinion or the opinion of his friend. Unfortunately that kind of thing always comes off terribly wrong on a Forum such as this - where people are discussing a game in great detail and trying to understand the kind of things they'd need to know in order to suggest things that work out best for said game.

 

 I'm probably my best example of this in action. I'm got zilch for Game Design experience. Zero. Nada. Have I read a ton on it? Absolutely - it is of great interest to me. Do I discuss this with friends? Also a yes - many of my real life friends share the same desire to learn about it.

 

 But these things do not make me really understand any of it, not completely. I couldn't program if there was a handgun resting against my temple and the most complicated game engine I've ever worked with was Unity (lol Unity) which is hardly known for famous games. On top of this I can't really pretend that for all my years spent playing games I really have a perfect understanding of why those games truly worked and how they had to be made to tick to accomplish the enjoyment I found in them.

 

 So yeah - when I really feel like I'm correct and I attempt to explain myself I could see where I'd end up either going in circles or worse, coming off completely wrong. To me it is just bringing up a point that came to mind or raising a question but to someone reading my post it takes a different tone entirely. I figure it is just because as far as I know I'm correct, so my post ends up reeking of that feeling and the person reading it may have a different understanding of the same issue. For all either of us knows we are both perfectly right. I try to take it in stride because even if we are both correct, or in fact even if I am wrong, the other guy gets to really detail out his point talking with me and that can be really good.

 

 I dunno. You learn as you go I guess. I certainly do. I try to keep in mind the posters who really stump me or present some information that changes how I think about an issue. Those are the guys I enjoy having a conversation with. Even over silly, small topics like Cosmetic items. I find this forum community quite fantastic at times for that.

[Madotsuki]

No, OP, thank YOU, for posting this topic.

If you look at any post that suggests even the most minor nerf to an enemy or hazard, you'll see tons of elitists defending the enemy or hazard with condescending comments like "this game is too easy" "shut up and lrn2play" etc. It doesn't matter how broken some of these enemies are, or how fake the difficulty is, whether it's the omni-potent Disruptor, stunlock, or simply the fact that there are no incentives to play the Cryo Leak hazard missions, it always results in the same responses of "everything is perfect, shut up and deal with it". What these people fail to understand is that the game is still in beta and subject to change. More enemy variety can be added, enemy AI has miles of room for improvement, there are tons of ways to increase challenge and game longetivity fairly both to new players and for the veteran crowd without resorting to frustrating and overly punishing mechanics, and yet these elitists continue to insist that there is absolutely nothing wrong because they themselves don't have a problem with it, either due to 1337 skills, all maxed gear or even using exploits like hiding on boxes. Because the elitist doesn't experience the difficulty himself, he thinks that the vast majority of the playerbase shares his exact experience and thus everything is perfect as it is, and that any change at all will ruin his gameplay experience.

On the plus side, at least DE doesn't always listen to these people, as seen by the removal of the Nervos, and changing the Scorpion's hook to an avoidable projectile.

[Notso]

I just grabbed popcorn and i have been reading all the posts on this Topic.

 

Let me add one thing everyone else forgot. The way in which the counter-statements and counter-arguments are made (which surely needs to change).

 

Example : -snip-

 

I'd put that in spoiler tags if I were you. :)

[Tartanu]

The guys who hold their hours grinded in this game as some point of pride need to get some perspective.  Really, who the hell cares if you have mastery 9 and all the frames and serration/redirection at max or whatever.  Congratulations.  You're better at grinding than all the other A******s who play this game.  The biggest challenge this game has for me is trying to stay awake in an extended defense.  That should say a lot about how stimulating this game is at higher levels--you get to shoot the same enemies with bigger hp pools, rinse and repeat.

That said, I have found myself frustrated to no end with these weekend alerts, if only due to the complete lack of any clue on the part of a large number the people I ran into.  We're talking 3 guys on that cave and cliff level who are derping around on the cliffs leaving me to face wave after wave of corpus solo.  Whole teams that tail your &#! leaving one side of the map completely undefended.  Idiots who fight on the other side of the map, die hilariously, and  get 2 guys hauling &#! to revive them while the pod is getting swarmed.  And any coordination with them is frustrating as hell, since half the time they don't listen, and sometimes they cuss you out for your efforts.

Elitism is a huge problem, and the Grindy McGrindExpert types sorely need some perspective in life, but the sword cuts both ways.  Why do some folks act like such entitled $&*^s towards people who are trying to help them win?

Edited June 24, 2013 by niekaa

[Blatantfool]

done, anything else ?

 

  I appreciate you taking the time to do that. Now that I've caught up and seen that image it is good Notso mentioned something. I'd have needed the same thing of you. The profanity thing is against the rules here. I don't feel like you did anything wrong here but I'll ask you to refrain from including it too often.

[Notso]

done, anything else ?

 

Nah buddy, it's just I've known people to get Warning Points for posting images with profanities in them in the past, so I figured I'd warn you. No harm done :)

[xenapan]

I disagree with OP: This isnt CS. you have persistent stats, frames, weapons, mods. If people are constantly telling you to upgrade your mods, or get better weapons it means you need to spend more time playing and less time complaining. Everyone started from the same place. The difference is a new player shouldn't be expecting to do things as easily as a much more established player. a) that would totally invalidate all the effort longer term players have put into the game b) it would cut the game's progression time  drastically. Theres a reason why you dont start with all rank 30 weapons and frames with the best possible mods available to you: you haven't earned them. Younger players that are obssesed with now now now are like children who want immediate gratification. They could make the game really easy by making all ranks 1 xp to level, all mod levels 1 xp, crafting times and costs 1 credit 1 xp. The issue with taking the grind out is also taking the experience of actually PLAYING with the stuff. The way the system is now FORCES you to learn to use frames/weapons BETTER. Not just assume you know best already.

 

Could the older players stand to be less condescending? Yes. But newer players need to understand progression in this game is not an overnight thing. You are EXPECTED to spend weeks or even months grinding up those rank 10 mods. You are EXPECTED to wait 3 days to collect a crafted frame because it sure wont kill you to play the frame you are ON for another 3 days. Its not going to kill you to farm another 5k ferrite, but the fact it takes time and effort and its "boring" also means you will actually put some thought into what you want to craft next rather than just "CRAFT ALL TEH WEAPONS!" most of what I see new players asking for are just shortcuts to get an easy way out of putting in effort and playing the game.

[Sammy001]

 Everyone started from the same place.

Wrong, and I think that's the problem :). Nothing that can be helped though.

[Notso]

Wrong, and I think that's the problem :). Nothing that can be helped though.

Damn effin' right - I was born 1337. As came out of the womb my first sentence was "h4 n003 m07h3r, c0u1dn7 3v3n g1v3 31r7h w17h0u7 43n357h371c5".

[Blatantfool]

Damn effin' right - I was born 1337. As came out of the womb my first sentence was "h4 n003 m07h3r, c0u1dn7 3v3n g1v3 31r7h w17h0u7 43n357h371c5".

 

 I've got you topped. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory'>Chaos Theory my very conception was so sick-nasty that my Mother's womb released a bizarre trans-dimensional 'Radical' radiation. 

 

 This radiation was so gnarly that Wolfenstein 3D was created simultaneously in every possible Universe - ushering in peace and prosperity through Videogames for wicked cool types in the multiverse. Scientists speculate that across all time and space radical dudes everywhere shed a single tear of pure machismo over the event.