The Second Stream Podcast: Episode 2

[Ojimaru]

The thing about Trials, from the standpoint of a content creator, is that the ROI will always be much lower than the rest of your content. Trials are difficult by design, a trait that make them both attractive to players seeking challenge, yet repulsive to the vast majority of players. One thing you should never overlook is that Trials cater to a niche audience. That's their whole point. Trials are there to challenge the elite, to push them to their limits, from which they will (sometimes) emerge victorious with some trophy and bragging rights. Making Trials easier defeats their entire purpose.

Now, let me present a case study, our wonder child of yore, World of Warcraft. The majority of WoW's content lie in the quests and 5-man dungeons throughout their many worlds (and goddamn timelines) as part of your character's progression, but all players know that a totally new game lay in the end-game Raids. These were tough-as-nails encounters that drove players to despair and broke friendships, yet hidden within their dark depths were many amazing, unique encounters, lore and content. Content that Blizzard knew most players wouldn't ever see (well, that was before streaming and Let's Plays exploded). Now, no content creator ever wants to make something that can only be appreciated by a small group of players. This is even more pertinent to WoW because character power progression are tied to Raids; you had to do the Tier 1 Raid in order to get the gear to do Tier 2 Raids and so on. What Blizzard decided to do was to progressively nerf the difficulty of the raids every other week, allowing more and more players to advance through the content, until they reach a "sweet spot" and the next Raid Tier would arrive. Not only does this consistent release of harder and harder raids challenged their hardcore, but it the constant easing of difficulty for the lower-tier Raids allowed more casual players to enjoy and experience the content that was previously barred to them.

The problem that Warframe has is that [DE] doesn't have the infrastructure set up to churn out Trials after Trials on a consistent basis, which is also because that was never Warframe's core design in the first place. And that's totally fine. Trials and Raids aren't design concepts that can just be shoehorned into a game; they require a tremendous amount of resources just to design, let alone to upkeep and balance. All that investment for content designed for a niche audience? You'd best be prepared to accept the low ROI.  

Speaking of balance, here's why Warframe can't ever cater to Trials: Warframes. Unless [DE] has all of the Warframes, weapons, Mods, companions and whatnot to be released in the next two years done and designed, I can't see how they can ever hope to make a balanced Trial that won't break when that one new 'Frame, weapon, Mod or even companion is introduced. Other games with Raids? They're limit the player variable to a set number of choices determined at the very beginning and that never changes. Blizzard will have to contend with 12 classes at the beginning of their next big expansion and Raid content; [DE] has a roster of 30 Warframes (excluding Primes) and growing, each a possible means to break or trivialise a specific mechanic introduced in the Trial (e.g. Energy Vampire and Blessing).

While I haven't played the Trials myself, I have realised that both Law of Retribution and Jordas Verdict are both an expanded version of the Vay Hek and Jordas Golem fights. So why not retune them and make these multipart missions Sorties instead? For example Vay Hek Sortie 1 is the Toxin Sabotage mission, Sortie 2 the escort, culminating to Vay Hek Assassination in Sortie 3.

[Mak_Gohae]

1- Both. It depends on how purdy i find them.

2- No. 1-shot comes from ridiculous high dmg attacks. Which is something you should be actively trying to avoid. If you didn't then that sucks. If you think 1-shots are bad in game then you should change ridiculously high damage stuff to something else. Like, if you about to receive that high amount you actually get hit for half then the other half is put on as a debuff on your frame or weapons. Like slower reload for X seconds. That X seconds depends on the amount of damage. Basically a guaranteed status hit. 

5-  Made a thread about bringing No Man's Sky-like type of gameplay to WF. Maybe this could be done for these type of missions. Instead of putting them in normal missions, which are all about killing, you should have explore missions. In these missions your powers work in different ways. With Banshe we can use the firs ability as a dig ability, 2nd can be use to target the things you need to find, etc, etc. You can also put parkour to use here. Having to jump around to get to difficult areas to find X thing.

These missions should have huuuuge tiles. Or if you can.... be an open world mission where a bunch of people can jump in at the same time. Put in a high limit and create duplicates if a limit is reached like the Rails.

6- make it a variant so people stop complaining about Prime. Because the more they complain the more likely you people are going to release it.

[(PSN)LocoCrazy_]

6. What are your expectations for Umbra?

Both a new line of Warframes and something that presents and a new game mechanic.

[Quanlain]

I really don't mind the plants in the quest. But it was a bit grindy, i could use at least some narration during all the grind, some storytelling (maybe how the New Loka lady came to this, etc.)
My honest opinion: A very good voicelines can boost the mission interest. For example, Tyl Regor's lines are too good, it's not annoying to hear him over and over again. So, if mission will be grindy, i would really like some third party narration, as it was with Nata quest, when you defend the objective.

[Quanlain]

About trials: i think that Trials and sorties have same kind of problems: rewards.
Trials have only arcanes, and a bit of them are actually usefull, other 60-70% are not used at all. (Never knew the person, who used a damage type reflection arcane)
You were talking about people not interested in Trials. I think that actually newer players don't have enough reasons to play Really complex and hard missions for a very low chance of a good arcanne, and still though, you will need to get lucky ~10 times to make a fully upgraded arcane.

This is a reason for me too, because i don't need that much credits, and all arcanes are not nececcary for gameplay.
But introducing good rare weapon blueprints that only drop for completion the Raid (Like it is with Brakk btw) will boost the interest to the Raids. 
Adding something that can not be bought for plat, nor credits, but only obtained via raids would greatly (i hope) boos the interes of the community towards the raids.
Perhaps, even adding a warframe as a raid reward. But certanly not a Limbo/Oberon type of warframe. 

I will always think that players should be kindly rewarded for putting effort in the game. Even if it will make Raids, Sorties harder, way harder. A good reward makes people want to get it. Also, removing these rewards from market for plat would be a very good way to get rid of Pay2Win problem.
^{Same thing with sorties actually, Nezha now is a bit of an annoying to see as a reward. Some weapons from sorties are garbage, so i don't even have a courage to do season 8 sortie. Because we had twin vipers in the near past, and they do not perform well.}
 

Edited August 24, 2016 by Quanlain

[iFlynn]

15 hours ago, RengiSama said:

1.You guy's do very well on these streams, however I'd like to know how community Youtubers are selected to speak and give their opinion, and their fans opinion. 
2. I personally have never finished a raid, due to; connection, confusion, etc but I've been a player for about 3 years now. I consider myself a veteran, but putting those mechanics in new mission types, or even every day missions would help a lot.

the chat is limited to 8 people and its really just who ever shows up / who ever Drew personally pm's for the scheduled cast. examples being am bunny and tgdm this week. but ask for content creators who ever rushes in first :P 

[iFlynn]

And thanks for having me this week too :P enjoyed the raiding topic. 

[CalmAndHappy]

6. While im hoping it will be a new line of warframes i dont think that will be a case.While i have my ideas what they are and what could be its to early to think about it.Besides it is to early to speculate on it,TWW did not even come out.

3.Raids are terebly lacking in my opinion.Both in chalange and in rewards.They have become more of a speed run even nightmare difficulty is same.And rewards,while arcanes are nice fore those who colect them there still could be more.Maybe like an armor or other cosmetic item would be much better.That way ppl can trully stand out in crowd with some dank armor or color palet only obtainebell by doing raids on dayli baisis like sorties.

[(PSN)VariantX7]

Hoping shield gating becomes a thing. It feels like a useless stat as there are already tons of ways to get around shields and damage health directly  as it is. 1000 shields and 300 health just feels like 300 health. 

[[DE]Drew]

The Second Stream Podcast is now Available on iTunes!

[Ginyama]

Just one opinion, which is Question 6:

I expect that the Umbra Is a new set of storyline in the line of the Warframe's past. Like some prime warframes that has a past lore, during the Orokin Era. And also to dig through further on what exactly are they, and what are their sole purpose. In terms of stats, I don't really mind, unless there is gonna be a huge stat differences. For now, its just all about the story.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Ginyama

[NightmareT12]

I'll comment on Shields, Trials and Umbra:

Shields: Yes, of course! It's about due time Shields finally got some QoL changes -- I getthat those frames are squishier, but right now it's extremely hard to pull it off under some circumstances (hi bombards and Napalms). Can't wait to see what's coming for those :)

 

Trials: Hmmm... DE should always cater to everyone -- that said, it's expected that Trials are not going to be for low MR players (in the sense of gear). So while I'd support creating a normal raid that gave some tips here and there as to how to cooperate for this kind of stuff and it could be interesting, I feel there should be a bit of everything: Easier ones, normal-difficult ones that can be played for everyone and already start going to a more end-game point, difficult ones (besides Nightmare trials) that put to the test those really higher end players.

 

Umbra: Umbra is expected to be (at least Steve wants to do) a new line of variants with new mechanics that go beyond "some stats are better". Steve seems like he's finally in the final stages of design and just needs the War Within out of the way, so I'm glad he kinda figured it out in the end :)

Edited August 25, 2016 by NightmareT12

[_Iye]

38 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

Steve seems like he's finally in the final stages of design and just needs the War Within out of the way, so I'm glad he kinda figured it out in the end :)

Highly expecting for Steve to be successful in completing the umbra project by his anticipated timeline so that we can all get to see and play our most awaited frame of 2016. All the tenno wishes are with him on this. Keep up the good work Steve.

[Danjal777]

Clan glyphs....when?

[Wolfnrun]

1. I never trade so decoration 

 

2. YES! There are to many frames that loose al there shields and get KO with a few short hits!

 

3. I have a "clan" made all by myself and I have never done a raid before because of how it works, if there was a way to change that or make some alterations, I would much appreciate being able to do my first raid! I have no arcanes and all the comes with it, would like to test them out! 

 

4. I think more than half, no one should be exluded 

 

5. Plant's are nice, nothing wrong with scanning plant's, I like plant's and flowers and life 

 

6. I want something new, Instead of just the modding system which is the main system in place. I'm really excited for whatever it is, I just want something diffrent that is not the usual joe 

[Dzwsin]

6.Other:

I feel that Umbra shouldnt be just another varient with some stat changes. We have that with Prime, Wraith, Vandal, Dragon, etc. ID have no insentive to go out and farm for Mag Umbra for example if its just a stat change rather than a mechanic change when I have a few forma pumped into my Mag Prime already. I dont want Umbra to be just another thing for me to farm and level then toss into the blender for the affinity.

If the goal is stat based, then maybe a skin with pre installed arcane effects?

If it is to be a varient of warframes then I wouldnt like having an umbra verson of a frame that has a Prime version.

Maybe umbra could be super hard to get (Maybe we can get season tables for raids with the parts or Umbra parts drop from raid bosses) but Umbra's abilities are already augmented?

I'm still not sure how I feel about another varient of warframe because when it comes to weapons we already have so many varients and to me once theres so much its almost like its just a gimmic or I have to chose between two varients (such as the latran). I personally like having 1 of each weapon. But I also love collecting the vasrient items because to me it is a personal display of rare things I have earned over my years of Warframe. Kind of like Marvel's The Collecter I guess. But I really do not want 2 varients of 1 warframe. As of now, once I get a prime Warframe, the normal one goes to the blender. But with Umbra, Id feel compelled to keep both yet I'd get annoyed every time I got to my arsenal and see 2 Frosts for example.

But that's just my opinion, I know its not the only one that matters. Others may love a different idea. However I feel I'm not the only one. So could we maybe see a feature where we perminantlu keep the alt frame's skin even if we sell it? For example, I dont want my Ember Prime any longer because My ember has 8 forma and I dont want to put the effort into building the Prime varient, I could just sell the Prime and apply the Prime skin to my non prime Ember?

[Dzwsin]

14 hours ago, (PS4)VariantX7 said:

Hoping shield gating becomes a thing. It feels like a useless stat as there are already tons of ways to get around shields and damage health directly  as it is. 1000 shields and 300 health just feels like 300 health. 

It seems to me that most of the ways around shields are statas effects. This is a killer in defence misions. Its not a 100% solution but maybe an aura mod that reduces enemy status chance? That would be nice when you have about 30 eximus ancients setting you on fire, poisoning you, stealing your energy, and knocking you on your booty all at once.

[Rioma]

shield gating +1

Raids: I would rather have new fleshed out content like second dream, TWW, than another raid. I've done LoR maybe 200 times (normal + NM), and JV maybe 70 times. The reward is good enough for me to do them. I can mod my frames so much differently and play differently because of the arcanes I've acquired. Would I like to have more fancy ones come to the game? Sure. But really raids just feel like a chore. They aren't like WoW where they take hours to complete. Literally LoR can be done faster than getting to rotation C in survival or defense.

Nullifiers: Make their bubble donut shaped and exposed from the top so you can jump over and shoot their face. Still can be shrunk by shooting/melee the barrier. Bring back the ability to kill them with the glaive power throw buld

Umbra: Not hyped for him. If its Excal with minor stat buffs and cosmetic look than meh. I don't play excal much and probably won't play it much. If it's some premium skin unlocked via quest that might be cool, but pretty forgetable. IDK i agree with the guy that said something like don't No Man's Sky Umbra. What i would like is it's an excal but with similar but augmented abilities.

[Rapid]

Umbra

I do not like the idea that Umbra is just another variant of the same Warframe. We do not need to have a 3rd set of Warframes since I fear Umbras will become filler content more importantly devalue Primes and make the regular even more irelevent. Much like Syndicate weapons are to regular weapons and prime weapons. If they are have better stats than regular variant. The regular frames would fall into mastery fodder, why spend a slot to keep a regular frame. If Umbra have special buffs (ie. Syndicate procs) or another mechanic that make them more desirable than Prime then the Primes and for DE, Prime Access may become even more devalued. Why have a prime version if the umbra version is better. Plus I would like DE to focus on new ideas and new designs for Warframes not just to rehash the same frames with tweaks. Save the developer bandwidth! 

 

Edited August 26, 2016 by Rapidx

[Alenn_Tax]

The only question I have about scanning plants is: Where are our potted plants placables ? To decorate the Liset with ?

[Darken217]

I hope Umbra-variants are more of a different take on an older frame.
Maybe more drastic changes on the stats that could allow for different builds then the default versions.
However, I don't expect or even ask for ability changes.

So far it just seems a very interesting idea and I'm looking forward to it.

 

[Duduminador]

Shield denying 1 shots.
Synoid simulors, Tonkors, Mirages, Ashes with bleed proc: These will not be affected at all by this gimmick, simply because they're based on shooting everywhere non stop, endlessly. Now the actual sets of weapons that sum down to 1 shot mobs, rifles, bows, Opticor... are simply going to double how bothersome it already is to use them. It's enough trouble having to reload or charge a gun on every shot, I'm also gonna have to do this twice a mob? Depending on how it interacts with multishots. These guns can potentialy die at this point. This new shield gimmick is NOT going to hinder the already OP weapons of the game, and it's going to cripple the ones that aren't.

Raids
Having a difficulty standard to run Raids is nice... But it doesn't pay off... It's not just the fact that there are only a few exceptional arvanes, but how useless the rest of them are. While the best Arcanes give certain frames a nice bonus. It's really a meaningless boost compared to some of the already existing gimmicks between abilities and guns. In the end all they do is give a forgetable bonus to objectives that are already easy to achieve. They're just not needed.

Scanning plants
It's actualy rather nice, It's not even too much grinding once you understand the spots a certain plant only spawns. I do think however they could have a better use, rather then spawning Specters. Could do something entirely new, say for instance, consumable boosters for pets.

Nullifiers.
They're fine.

Umbra.
Totaly lost faith in this. It's probably going to make OP frames even more unbalanced and add cool but weak-to-the-point-of-being-unpractical gimmicks to the frames that DID need a boost (like Volt's riot shields and discharge).

[renleech]

My formed opinions:

 About Umbra. Too early and too little information to discuss new mechanic. Probably another testbed that will pass the cycle of bugs, anger about them and maturation of the idea.
 But about lore, that's what i'm really interested. Humm, the Umbra quest will be another of those quests who answers a few questions, leaves many in the air and creates many more. the usual stuff. Anyway, i look forward to cleaning my ship of that infested filth.

 About raids, i believe a cycle is a good idea. Old ones becoming more accessible to those not elite players and the new stuff only for the top. But, as mentioned in other posts, with only 3 trials available it's hard to think about raid nerfs in shot term.

 Shield preventing one-shot kills: Hell yeah!

[Larred]

for number 6 what im hoping is that they are an inverse on frames or a darker more metal/sinister spin like here is Excalibur

1st goes to one enemy dealing slash damage with a high chance of shredding him to bits

2nd instead of blinding creates a fear that makes enemies run

3 instead of impalling enemies away causes them to be pulled in towards him

4th exalted dual blades

just my two credits

[OHyeahWF]

1.Technically, i always welcome new stuff, Titania quest is nice, but i hope more !!!!
 

2.I am expecting this two options from the Umbra 
-A new line of variant Warframes.

• -A new game mechanic that we don't yet know about.