Berserker (and now Naramon) has forever ruined the design of melee weapons

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Asdeft said:

Lesion is a monster in high levels without any crit mods. I would like more status weapons to be like it, too. 

#LesionMasterRace

[Cytobel]

1 hour ago, Genitive said:

I think it's not the problem that crit weapons are overpowered, but rather everything else is lacking. Like we have red crits, but no over-100% status effects. The same goes for focus. There is shadow step, bot not similar effect for status.

Adding mods like Blood Rush and Body Count was a right decision, but there is more to be done to close the gap between crit and noncrit weapons. Like maybe making Body Count innate for all the weapons, rather than a mod, so we don't waste mod slot for something that can be considered an obligatory mod now.

In short, I would leave crit weapons as they are, but add more depth and power for status and pure damage weapons. Just for the sake of variety.

And because Lacera is great.

I was waiting to see the "make Body Count innate" argument.  I agree because I see Body Count as a required mod now.  You don't have the mod and NOT think about using it in a weapon, but instead you consider whether or not a weapon is total trash because it can't make decent use of Blood Rush/Body Count.

Another argument is that both mods are required, and thus should be part of the combos system baseline.  If we go that route (and accept the idea that we would see Blood Rush toned back) then we look at melee that ramps up sky-high without taking 2 mod slots to do it.  In that model Berserker becomes more important than ever, and crit is again king, yet you'd see some of the off weapons still being played a bit at high-end.

Whatever direction we look, the melee system is packed full of meta-determining required mods.  Hell, I'm lucky to have 3 slots left for elemental mods as it is.

Fact is we need to have the melee system overhauled again, and this time it'd be nice to pull some of the fatty build-cloggers we don't have options about using.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Cytobel

[AlphaPHENIX]

1 hour ago, Actriaz said:

Everybody think of your favorite/most used Melee weapon. Chances are it's a crit weapon.

I have 3 melee weapons tied for that spot. The Proto-Glaive (not Prime, I repeat, not Prime), Silva & Aegis and Pangolin Sword...for style that is.

3 most favorite which I actually use are: Dragon Nikana, Redeemer and Kronen.

Out of all of those, only the Dragon Nikana has Crit Chance above 5%

Note: I do use Maiming Strike + Shadow Step on my Kronen though.

[RealPandemonium]

E-spam in general is bad; Berserker is a bandaid for speeding that up, is all.  IMO the only really viable melee weapons are the ones with strong slide and jump attack values, since those are the only melee maneuvers that you can weave into gunplay seamlessly and without exposing yourself excessively.  

[(PSN)lhbuch]

I would that some weapons could be buffed and maybe some status related effects like naramon could be created in order to level all melee weapons. 

In my opinion a melee weapon has to be powerful, otherwise whats the point to get into "kissing enemies"  zone to deal a noddle attack if you can stay safer and away dealing tons of damage?

[Twilight053]

To make it clear, stealth crits won't proc Berserker.

[Epsik-kun]

21 hours ago, Torhque said:

I wish we'd switch to a light attack/heavy attack system like other fast-paced action games utilize (Metal Gear: Revengeance, DMC series, etc.)

Devil May Cry had never utilized light/heavy attack system

 

On topic, I would rather like Galatine Prime to have these extra 10% critical chance to go into status.

[voltocitygel]

Crit is powerful, as it should be. Status is not as powerful, but it should be.

allow over 100% status chance garunteed to proc one status with a chance for another. Make some of the non stacking status effects stackable, either effect wise, duration wise, or both (both probably would half the bonus effect / duration). Primary elements could increase the duration and the effect for multiple stacks on the same target. Beyond 100% armor reduction corrosive could give a small damage bonus against that target. (5-15%?) magnetic would increase the duration of the shield reduction, and maybe have an additional effect on shield less enemies. Viral could increase duration and add a minor DoT (weaker than toxin) effect once a certain number of stacks are reached. Radiation could increase duration of the effects. Gas  and blast are fine as is. As for physical status effects, make slash procs stackable (more than one active at a time), Impact procs repeatable (let another proc even if it does so during the first stagger- so increases stagger duration, basically), and let puncture increase the effect and duration. 

Status effects ARE powerful, even as is, if you think about it. One hit that might not even do damage can reduce the enemies shields by 75%, their health by 50%, or their armor by 25%. Problem is, lots of status weapons lack damage the way crit weapons dish them out, and these bonuses don't stack, and have a duration (Except the armor reduction, which is probably why it's 25% as opposed to the higher values). Take my favorite combination- viral and radiation. On a high status chance weapon, you can have an entire group of enemies at half health, attacking each other. They just need more mods, love from the DE team, and viable weapons to take them into the meta. Rebecca specifically asked about the lack in status around the release of solar map 3.0. Hopefully that means that we'll see some status changes in damage 3.0.

let the crit weapons be more single target dps, let status be for groups of enemies or single target incapacitation. Damage weapons? Give them bonus damage, combos for non melee, bonus combo for melee/sniper, or other utility effects. 

Every weapon, frame, and playstyle should be endgame viable, even if it takes awhile to get it there.

[voltocitygel]

Crit is powerful, as it should be. Status is not as powerful, but it should be.

allow over 100% status chance garunteed to proc one status with a chance for another. Make some of the non stacking status effects stackable, either effect wise, duration wise, or both (both probably would half the bonus effect / duration). Primary elements could increase the duration and the effect for multiple stacks on the same target. Beyond 100% armor reduction corrosive could give a small damage bonus against that target. (5-15%?) magnetic would increase the duration of the shield reduction, and maybe have an additional effect on shield less enemies. Viral could increase duration and add a minor DoT (weaker than toxin) effect once a certain number of stacks are reached. Radiation could increase duration of the effects. Gas  and blast are fine as is. As for physical status effects, make slash procs stackable (more than one active at a time), Impact procs repeatable (let another proc even if it does so during the first stagger- so increases stagger duration, basically), and let puncture increase the effect and duration. 

Status effects ARE powerful, even as is, if you think about it. One hit that might not even do damage can reduce the enemies shields by 75%, their health by 50%, or their armor by 25%. Problem is, lots of status weapons lack damage the way crit weapons dish them out, and these bonuses don't stack, and have a duration (Except the armor reduction, which is probably why it's 25% as opposed to the higher values). Take my favorite combination- viral and radiation. On a high status chance weapon, you can have an entire group of enemies at half health, attacking each other. They just need more mods, love from the DE team, and viable weapons to take them into the meta. Rebecca specifically asked about the lack in status around the release of solar map 3.0. Hopefully that means that we'll see some status changes in damage 3.0.

let the crit weapons be more single target dps, let status be for groups of enemies or single target incapacitation. Damage weapons? Give them bonus damage, combos for non melee, bonus combo for melee/sniper, or other utility effects. 

Every weapon, frame, and playstyle should be endgame viable, even if it takes awhile to get it there.

[voltocitygel]

Crit is powerful, as it should be. Status is not as powerful, but it should be.

allow over 100% status chance garunteed to proc one status with a chance for another. Make some of the non stacking status effects stackable, either effect wise, duration wise, or both (both probably would half the bonus effect / duration). Primary elements could increase the duration and the effect for multiple stacks on the same target. Beyond 100% armor reduction corrosive could give a small damage bonus against that target. (5-15%?) magnetic would increase the duration of the shield reduction, and maybe have an additional effect on shield less enemies. Viral could increase duration and add a minor DoT (weaker than toxin) effect once a certain number of stacks are reached. Radiation could increase duration of the effects. Gas  and blast are fine as is. As for physical status effects, make slash procs stackable (more than one active at a time), Impact procs repeatable (let another proc even if it does so during the first stagger- so increases stagger duration, basically), and let puncture increase the effect and duration. 

Status effects ARE powerful, even as is, if you think about it. One hit that might not even do damage can reduce the enemies shields by 75%, their health by 50%, or their armor by 25%. Problem is, lots of status weapons lack damage the way crit weapons dish them out, and these bonuses don't stack, and have a duration (Except the armor reduction, which is probably why it's 25% as opposed to the higher values). Take my favorite combination- viral and radiation. On a high status chance weapon, you can have an entire group of enemies at half health, attacking each other. They just need more mods, love from the DE team, and viable weapons to take them into the meta. Rebecca specifically asked about the lack in status around the release of solar map 3.0. Hopefully that means that we'll see some status changes in damage 3.0.

let the crit weapons be more single target dps, let status be for groups of enemies or single target incapacitation. Damage weapons? Give them bonus damage, combos for non melee, bonus combo for melee/sniper, or other utility effects. 

Every weapon, frame, and playstyle should be endgame viable, even if it takes awhile to get it there.

[Torhque]

1 hour ago, Epsik-kun said:

Devil May Cry had never utilized light/heavy attack system

-snip-

Oh my bad lol. I just assumed

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

i think the main issue with blood rush is that it increases crit chance ALONGSIDE the natural increase of raw damage afforded by the combo counter which allows for a ridiculous damage buildup (especially when paired with body count) this could be mitigated by having it REPLACE the damage increase with a crit chance increase. with crit damage mods you would still end up with higher damage with this mod. but not to a ludicrous level.
OR
make it so the crit chance increases are ADDITIVE instead of multiplicative. say, something smaller like +20 per combo multiplier. this would actually make it comparatively better for low crit chance weapons whilst still giving a substantial boost to naturally high crit chance weapons. doing this would prevent alienating fans of the fang, for instance, whilst still being viable on naturally crit specialized weapons

as for beserker, limit the number of stacks to the number on the combo multiplier. this would still allow for insane attack speeds, but it would at least take a while to get there

[zehne]

12 hours ago, voltocitygel said:

Crit is powerful, as it should be. Status is not as powerful, but it should be.  ...

 

Quote

Status effects ARE powerful, even as is, if you think about it. One hit that might not even do damage can reduce the enemies shields by 75%, their health by 50%, or their armor by 25%. Problem is, lots of status weapons lack damage the way crit weapons dish them out, and these bonuses don't stack, and have a duration (Except the armor reduction, which is probably why it's 25% as opposed to the higher values).

1) You're not 100% in the first statement.  Status effects ARE POWERFUL.  Just not all status effects in all situations. 

2)Slash stacks, Toxin Stacks (Gas procs AoE toxin, so it stacks). Electricity damage does all it's damage instantly, and only the 'stun' has a duration (the stun 'refreshes').

 

Case in point I can hit a 120 Bombard for pennies.  A slash proc will obliterate them.  It's harder to achieve in simulcron with my weapon because I need to get the combo-counter semi high to achieve.  But about halfway through my killing spree you can tell just how much damage status effects do (and just for giggles I toyed with the last two 120 bombards).

Spoiler

Galatine P

 

Spoiler

Broken War, same build as Galatine P

 

 Status IS KING at higher levels( if you have the right damage type).

EDIT: My side point is that melee is quite strong.  Not many weapons I know of besides melee that could take on that many bombards that quickly

Edited August 25, 2016 by zehne

[Aglethe]

On 8/23/2016 at 4:52 PM, Slaviar said:

Exactly.

When you compare melee to guns it's vastly (and I mean vastly) inferior to guns

While the pendulum of melee/ranged balance has swung back and forth over the life span of the game as new weapons come and go, and has probably favoured range more often than not in the past, since the introduction of Blood Rush/Body Count that really hasn't been the case. Melee has a pretty commanding lead now. I made a recent post that charts the paper DPS of some of the current top melee weapons, and you don't even have to look past the 2x multiplier without Naramon numbers to see melee looking pretty favourable against range. 

In any case, I think to some extent melee should hold the advantage because as @(PS4)Ihbuch mentioned above, otherwise what's the point of closing the gap ? However the best melee weapons have already reached that point and then some, they certainly don't need any more help (though why we got a balanced sidegrade Tigris P and a power creep Galatine P I dunno 0.o ), instead we should perhaps be looking at ways to improve things like pure status or damage weapons to bring them more inline with crit and crit hybrid weapons. Or at least create more reasons for using them.

 

On 8/23/2016 at 4:53 PM, DeMeritus said:

Apropos OP's talk about berserker...  What about a similar mod that triggers off of status proc instead of crit?

Apparently Rebecca mentioned at some point at Tenno Con that they were considering a status mod alternative for Berserker, but it didn't sound like it was a very definite thing. I hope they do though.

 

5 hours ago, zehne said:

 Status IS KING at higher levels( if you have the right damage type).

Well, I'd phrase it more that crit/status hybrid is king, since crit mods are generally the best way to scale status damage (there was a thread on here a while ago about introducing pure status damage multiplier mods to help balance things, that might not be a bad idea), but yeah, I'd say you're in the right of it here.

[voltocitygel]

6 hours ago, zehne said:

 

1) You're not 100% in the first statement.  Status effects ARE POWERFUL.  Just not all status effects in all situations. 

2)Slash stacks, Toxin Stacks (Gas procs AoE toxin, so it stacks). Electricity damage does all it's damage instantly, and only the 'stun' has a duration (the stun 'refreshes').

 

Case in point I can hit a 120 Bombard for pennies.  A slash proc will obliterate them.  It's harder to achieve in simulcron with my weapon because I need to get the combo-counter semi high to achieve.  But about halfway through my killing spree you can tell just how much damage status effects do (and just for giggles I toyed with the last two 120 bombards).

  Reveal hidden contents

Galatine P

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Broken War, same build as Galatine P

 

 Status IS KING at higher levels( if you have the right damage type).

EDIT: My side point is that melee is quite strong.  Not many weapons I know of besides melee that could take on that many bombards that quickly

True. That's kind of what I was trying to say. Not all statuses are as good as others. Also, I was saying that it should be a duration stack in most cases rather than a refresh. For example: Shocked enemy for 5 seconds. 2 seconds pass. Apply electric proc again- new stun duration is 3+5= 8. That's what I meant by "duration stacking"

True, and I completely agree. Slash procs are rediculous, since their DoT is based on a percentage of the original damage. My dread is built as a crit machine, but I made sure it has decent status chance too. Every 2nd or 3rd shot will proc if the first didn't, and more often than not it's slash (no elemental mods on my build). Because of the insane damage numbers you can get, along with the bonus from head shots, anything that survives my first shot will die soon after from the slash proc. (I don't have videos of it but I'm sure you understand xD)

[Vaskadar]

DE seems to pander to the concept of power creep in PvE because that's what "makes the most money", and ultimately, as a company, it's what keeps them afloat.

I hate that power creep exists and persists in this game, but what can you do except hope that they buff the older content to keep up with the newer content?

 

At least small and frequent changes are made to balance in the PvP aspect of this game. I wish I could say the same of the PvE.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Vaskadar

[Aktriaz]

4 hours ago, Vaskadar said:

DE seems to pander to the concept of power creep in PvE because that's what "makes the most money", and ultimately, as a company, it's what keeps them afloat.

I hate that power creep exists and persists in this game, but what can you do except hope that they buff the older content to keep up with the newer content?

 

At least small and frequent changes are made to balance in the PvP aspect of this game. I wish I could say the same of the PvE.

Sad but somewhat true. I strongly believe that powercreep and getting players to purchase new content don't go hand in hand; that varying content, such as sidegrades, are equally intriguing to players, and it doesn't make previous content useless or outright inferior. Step 1 to true game balance: Have "incomparables"; skills or items that have different uses or specialties that can't be compared in the same field. Boltor Prime versus Telos Boltor is a good example of this in warframe. BoltorP has advantages over TBoltor and vice versa.

PvP gets a lot of balance changes because there is a small team dedicated to it. As for PvE, as far as I know Scott is the only one directly in charge of weapon stats and enemy stats, and that's only less than half of his job overall. He probably doesn't have the time to work through and re-balance the hundreds of weapons we have now... and that number is only going to get bigger.

If PvE gets it's own small team, even if it's just 2 or 3 people dedicated to enemy and weapon balance, we could see massive change for the better.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Actriaz

[(PSN)Lucas11212]

Believe it or not Blood Rush and Body count made everything critable.

[Aktriaz]

27 minutes ago, (PS4)Lucas11212 said:

Believe it or not Blood Rush and Body count made everything critable.

*sigh* Someone already pointed this out.

It doesn't change the fact that some weapons are just better crit weapons and thus better weapons overall.
I'm not complaining about some weapons being able to crit more than others, I'm complaining that crit has become the standard and a cornerstone in almost every melee build.

The very fact that you're pointing these mods out only further proves my point.

[Vohim]

20 minutes ago, Actriaz said:

*sigh* Someone already pointed this out.

It doesn't change the fact that some weapons are just better crit weapons and thus better weapons overall.
I'm not complaining about some weapons being able to crit more than others, I'm complaining that crit has become the standard and a cornerstone in almost every melee build.

The very fact that you're pointing these mods out only further proves my point.

so what exactly do  you propose?

theres crit damage and there's status  and theres status+crit  mainly slash weapons as   slash procs crit as well 

as far as naramon goes it gave squishier frames the ability to melee  with less risk of melting  

personally i prefer zenurik  and  use the  long forgotten  Channeling  function on my melee  for way   superior damage + life strike 

[Aktriaz]

2 minutes ago, Retepzednem said:

so what exactly do  you propose?

theres crit damage and there's status  and theres status+crit  mainly slash weapons as   slash procs crit as well 

as far as naramon goes it gave squishier frames the ability to melee  with less risk of melting  

personally i prefer zenurik  and  use the  long forgotten  Channeling  function on my melee  for way   superior damage + life strike 

I think Crit should mean "and instance of heavy damage" rather than that thing that triggers Berserker and/or Naramon.
Because that is the current meta, and the Devs are aware of it, and it's affecting the design of new weapons; hence Galatine Prime getting +10% crit chance when it was formally not a crit-based weapon. And as I said before, almost all the "end game" melees are crit (15% or higher).

I don't think Berseker or Shadowstep need to be removed. I think they need to be changed.

[Th3Soc1al1st]

Thank goodness its just an easier way for endgame players to farm endlessly for the next mastery rank fodder or primed frame (:

[Vohim]

2 hours ago, Actriaz said:

I think Crit should mean "and instance of heavy damage" rather than that thing that triggers Berserker and/or Naramon.
Because that is the current meta, and the Devs are aware of it, and it's affecting the design of new weapons; hence Galatine Prime getting +10% crit chance when it was formally not a crit-based weapon. And as I said before, almost all the "end game" melees are crit (15% or higher).

I don't think Berseker or Shadowstep need to be removed. I think they need to be changed.

and how is this a problem , how is crit chance itself a problem

the whole point of  this game and its mod system is to make weapons do more damage so how is crit chance  flawed to begin with ?

it is optional as well if you hate crit chance then dont use berserk,blood rush,true steel and organ shatter 

 

the only flaw i see with the damage system is that   they all share a same pool to such extent that even status procs  need crit  for maxing damage as well and that is where stuff like lesion with blood rush  gain  ludicrous damage 

[DSpite]

I don't see why I need to care.

It's not PvP, so if one weapon is somewhat better then another, It's not as if we are going head to head and I lose because you have a 15% DPS advantage. Also, we don't spend hours in Endless missions with ever increasing enemies, so really, why care at all?

This whole "whats the point of using weapon X when weapon Y kills 10% faster" is getting boring, frankly.

Just use whatever the hek you like best.

[LabMan95]

...

I'll just be a noob and shank enemies in the ankles with my Karyst. You guys think a good dagger is coming out soon so covert can be busted next?