Despite all common sense, new Prime grind is not worse

[BPNPC]

Many people have said the new prime grind is significantly worse than pre-SotR, and I'll admit I was one of those people. You have to grind for relics to grind for traces to grind for parts, which are several extra layers of grind. However, despite all logic and common sense, it seems the new grind isn't worse than before.

Why? Trade prices.

After lurking trade chat USE for a few hours yesterday and today, I've discovered that Nekros Prime prices have not differed significantly from previous Prime prices at launch. Currently, Nekros BP/Systems sits on average between 120-180p, and these are the most expensive Nekros parts because of their rarity. This is not significantly different from previous rare Prime parts at launch, e.g. Vauban Systems, Saryn Chassis, Ash Systems/BP, which all sat in that price range. In some cases Nekros Prime is actually cheaper; a full Trinity Prime set at launch could sell for 500p+, while Nekros P yesterday was between 400-500.

(Note that these are prices I observed in trade chat, not Warframe market. I did not use Warframe market because records don't exist of PA launch prices.)

Why do trade chat prices have to do with grind? Simply put, the Warframe trade economy is dictated by supply and demand, and this relationship is extremely noticeable during new PA launches. Demand for new Prime frames at launch has always been extremely high, and there's no reason to believe Nekros is an exception; demand for Nekros can be assumed to be the same as for previous Prime releases (or possibly even less, since Nekros isn't as popular as Trinity or Ash).

Supply is the changing factor with the new Void rework, but in fact supply has not changed, because demand remained the same and prices remained the same. If the post-SotR really did get worse, you'd expect supply to decrease, which would be visible in an increase in prices of Nekros parts relative to pre-SotR. Such a price increase was not seen. Thus, supply did not change, and thus the new Void rework is not significantly worse than before. 

I'm honestly puzzled by this, because I was positive the new Void rework was grindier than before and expected a massive increase in Prime prices at launch. There are two reasons I can come up with to explain the discrepancy:

• Relics have higher drop rates and can drop from multiple rotations, which, even when coupled with additional Radiant RNG, is better than the dreaded 5% drop rate in T3D.
• Starchart missions for relics are easier, more accessible, and less repetitive than Void missions

Note: This is all done using launch prices, which are all we have access to for Nekros. A few weeks or months down the line, when prices have stabilized more, we will have a better idea of pricing.

tl;dr - Nekros Prime prices are same as previous Prime prices, this means grind did not worsen

Edited August 25, 2016 by BPNPC

[BornWithTeeth]

What's that? The community went into hysterics over a change to systems which they, by and large, did not fully comprehend? The community went into full blown nostalgia mode for a system which, while it was in effect, was pretty terrible?

 

 

Next you'll tell me that gamers are a bunch of folks prone to over-hyping things, followed by knee-jerk community/cultural reactions, and that they don't deal well with change.

[Ceryk]

Simple fact of the matter is people refuse to use logic or even test things out. Me and another guy in my clan specifically didn't buy Prime Access even though we normally do in order to see how it was. I got Galatine Prime in one day with only 4 Fissure runs. I have never gotten a new prime that quickly. I have at least one of each of the relics for the new prime parts. The biggest problem is that people aren't out there in public groups in the Star Chart making it easier to just jump in and farm relics. People are going to complain about the whole relic trace thing. But people don't want to think that one through. Run the relics that have common and uncommon drops and you'll get the Traces to use for the harder to get drops. And if you are a veteran player, you're probably framing for Baro visits on a pretty regular basis anyway.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Ceryk

[TARINunit9]

Another thing that's helped is the increased transparency of the drop tables

If you find something that drops Axi relics -- for example, Xini -- you know that the specific Axi you need is approximately 1/8 (7 Axi relics, plus those annoying Mutation mods). Likewise you know that the chance of getting rares from Radiant relics is 10% for one player and 39% for four players

Those awful T4 MD tables that @Tricky5hift is having flashbacks of? You had no idea what the actual drop chances were except by sifting through month-old spreadsheets on Reddit (that weren't pinned and didn't show up on Google easily, because the people who compiled them were most likely dataminers) and more often than not it was 5.5% surrounded by two 30% common items

[(PSN)robotwars7]

didn't someone once say that "if you teach a Parrot to say "supply and Demand", you'd have made an Economist? not entirely on topic, this just reminded me of that.

so far I've only seen benefits to the new system;

- Relics can be bought from Syndicates, so no tedious Excavation Grind if you don't want to. 20k standing isn't that hard, only about 3-4 missions, even after the rep nerf. wearing Sigils help of course.

- relics without new parts can be used to farm Traces to refine relics that DO contain new parts.

- you can select your friend's/another randoms rewards if they happen to luck out and you don't. (plus more traces when people choose your relic.)

- Traces from part runs go towards refining as well

- truckloads of Ducats for Baro, minimum Forma present, sometimes non-existent on certain Relics.

- more satisfaction when you luck out, knowing you went through twice as much RNG to get the part you wanted.

 

the new system could use a couple tweaks, perhaps making Traces a little easier to acquire here and there (I think that all Corrupted/Void enemies should have a chance of dropping 5 Traces or so, maybe restricted only to Eximus units.), but overall I find this new system more enjoyable than slogging tiresomely through T3 Survival Rotation C for the 50th time in a row.
 

 

[Serafim_94]

Becouse people like to whine about endless gone, but forget things while doing so. They forget the cancer that was MD. They forget countless exterminate runs never giving you desired items - 30 runs any1?. They forget hours upon hours in said endless missions without getting the damn Nova part you are after. They forget abyssmal drop rates in OD. Actually, they forget how many items overall were locked behind some 5% chance, while also mixed with cores, credits and formas. Nothing like getting 5 cores on C rotation. Twice.

Relics are better than void. By a mile. Not flawless, but don't pretend like old system was in any way better.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Serafim_94

[Ceryk]

One thing I'm surprised no one mentioned: The fact that T3 keys were rarer and more difficult to obtain than T4 keys. That is something I certainty don't miss. T1 and T2 keys dropped like rain from missions of all levels. T4, just go do Interception. T3 had absolutely no reliable place to get.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Ceryk

[ArcusVeles]

I only have a couple parts left to get and I haven't even been playing that much.  Just saved up a whole lot of traces before the patch and have been playing in groups.  So far, feels great.

I'm a little more worried about how much of a pain it'd be to find groups after a chunk of content is old and gone, but we'll see how that is when it comes.

[cx-dave]

I didn't forget anything. Got over 7k Relics to burn and over 1k Traces stored. Am I farming much of anything? Not really, because I'm tired of doing the same Fissure over and over again. It's the same mission just with different wallpaper. The enemies are so easy for anyone that has been playing for a while that you can just ignore them. Get your crap and exit. That's all there is to do.

...and if I was in this just to collect parts I'd get some stamps or postcards instead. 

[Katinka]

23 minutes ago, BPNPC said:

 

• Relics have higher drop rates and can drop from multiple rotations, which, even when coupled with additional Radiant RNG, is better than the dreaded 5% drop rate in T3D.
• Starchart missions for relics are easier, more accessible, and less repetitive than Void missions

I'm pretty sure people have been trying to point that out for quite some time but get shot down because having a positive outlook is not allowed on the internet,

2 minutes ago, Ceryk said:

One thing I'm surprised no one mentioned: The fact that T3 keys were rarer and more difficult to obtain than T4 keys. That is something I certainty don't miss.

I was just thinking about that earlier.  So many people are complaining about having to source the new Relics but I think I've had to source new Keys for every Prime set going back to Rhino Prime because there has always been a shortage of T3 Exterminate, Mobile Defense and Survival.  I had literally hundreds of T1 and T2 Keys but they were never the ones that got new stuff.  It would always be the same T3 Keys that I would never have enough of.

[Serafim_94]

5 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

I didn't forget anything. Got over 7k Relics to burn and over 1k Traces stored. Am I farming much of anything? Not really, because I'm tired of doing the same Fissure over and over again. It's the same mission just with different wallpaper. The enemies are so easy for anyone that has been playing for a while that you can just ignore them. Get your crap and exit. That's all there is to do.

...and if I was in this just to collect parts I'd get some stamps or postcards instead. 

So, you weren't tired of doing same void mission over and over again? :Lke farming for Trinity Prime for instance? Or do you imply that Void had difficult enemies somewhere sooner than 1 hour into T4 surv? Only thing that changed is that grind time got reduced, leading to faster aquisition and, apaprently, people complaining they have nothing better to do once farm is done.

Old void had some glimpses of fun, but for most time it was work. Tiresome, boring and quite unrewarding work.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Serafim_94

[Airwolfen]

Common sense can be hard sometimes.

Go into ODS leave with at least 3 keys and all drops are possible. you can also gain packs from standing and that is pretty easy as well. There may be more layers, but all these layers are not that much more work in the end due to all the QOL changes that went with it.

 

[notlamprey]

I feel like there's a problem with your primary assertion here.

Item prices remaining constant doesn't mean that the 'grind' hasn't worsened. We need more information before we say that.

Item prices remaining constant only means that supply and demand are tracking close to each other.

It would be super great it we could conclude that "grind has not gotten worse," but I think you're jumping to that conclusion a little early. Let's not be hypocrites here, ripping on folks who "jumped to conclusions" when we ourselves are being too hasty.

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

Dunno if anyone noticed but relics are incredibly easy to get in fissure excavation and probably for the other endless fissure missions as well. And grind was reduced since you're not forced to sit in a mission for 20 minutes just for 1 chance at the part you want. And honestly the old system was incredibly exploitable. Hundreds of primes from a single key, piggybacking off other people's keys, cheese...cheese everywhere.

This is a step in the right direction. The grind was always there, just hidden behind a curtain.

Fissures just need more variety for opening the relic. And maybe a change to the get 10 system. I sweat bullets when I need 4 and everyone is heading towards extraction. I can see why (cough afk'ers cough) but it's not cool for late game joiners.

[Slaviar]

29 minutes ago, Katinka said:

I was just thinking about that earlier.  So many people are complaining about having to source the new Relics but I think I've had to source new Keys for every Prime set going back to Rhino Prime because there has always been a shortage of T3 Exterminate, Mobile Defense and Survival.  I had literally hundreds of T1 and T2 Keys but they were never the ones that got new stuff.  It would always be the same T3 Keys that I would never have enough of.

Devs definitely loved T3Surv

[cx-dave]

19 minutes ago, Serafim_94 said:

So, you weren't tired of doing same void mission over and over again? :Lke farming for Trinity Prime for instance? Or do you imply that Void had difficult enemies somewhere sooner than 1 hour into T4 surv? Only thing that changed is that grind time got reduced, leading to faster aquisition and, apaprently, people complaining they have nothing better to do once farm is done.

Lol.

Nothing changed in terms of acquisition time for me. I always had the option to get stuff instantly. DE has to assure there's something fun to do afterward however. Closing thousands of Fissures isn't it.

One of the strongest attractions and sense of continuity in this game is, or rather was, the ability to prepare for future updates. They removed a large chunk of that. It doesn't matter whether your'e a paying customer or not. A big part of making your own way through the game was lost.

This didn't necessarily have to happen. The new and old ways don't have to be mutuality exclusive. There are all kinds of creative game play combinations that they can design instead of  a out with the old and in with the new.

Edited August 25, 2016 by cx-dave

[(PSN)SektorZR1]

8 minutes ago, Slaviar said:

Devs definitely loved T3Surv

loved rot c even more

heil no more stupid 20 min/20 waves rot c forma

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

I'll admit, I was a bit scared of this new system, but after testing it out... It's not that bad. Even the grind for relics, which many are flipping out over. In fact I found something fairly interesting. Excavation fissures are an amazing way to get relics. So all those that think grinding relics is bad. Tell that to the 40+ keys I got after s couple runs.

[Slaviar]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)SektorZR1 said:

loved rot c even more

heil no more stupid 20 min/20 waves rot c forma

Spoiler

That's main reason I prefer relic system. I've rarely farmed parts locked behind rotations C because it was so boring...

[steelblueskies]

36 minutes ago, (PS4)SektorZR1 said:

loved rot c even more

heil no more stupid 20 min/20 waves rot c forma

actually that still exists in derelict . just now instead of parts its relics with a chance of forma, at the cost of a key and the need for manual matchmaking.

its also fun to have four different relics with forma at different rarities and positions and roll the quadrilogy jackpot.

[I_AM_JUGS]

i dunno about farm wise, even with upgraded relics i've personally not landed a reward above the uncommon field, but i have been in games with people that have.
i will add that while running a mission on the old system just to get prime junk may have made me sigh, but running twice with friends when all of us had upgraded relics just for all of us to get the commons six times genuinely made me want to not play for a little while. i think the added stage of us putting in that time to upgrade the relic for nothing to come of it hurt just that much more than not getting thet rhino BP after hours of playing before they brought in T4.
(when i say we got commons six times i mean we ran two relics as three players, not the longest run streak i know)

that's my experience with the relic system anyway, maybe after having a streak of luck my opinion may change or maybe i've overplayed the game lately and just need a break in general.

Edited August 25, 2016 by I_AM_JUGS

[(XBOX)Rey Za BurreI]

Oh plz, people love trying to defend this new system. Enjoy grinding on top of grinding on top of more grinding. Oh and remember to eat your own words when you aren't able to get the relics you want because the drop table is so flooded with over 100 different relics.

[Obviousclone]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)Rey Za BurreI said:

Oh plz, people love trying to defend this new system. Enjoy grinding on top of grinding on top of more grinding. Oh and remember to eat your own words when you aren't able to get the relics you want because the drop table is so flooded with over 100 different relics.

they uhhhh

 

are removing vaulted relics

 

like the nyx/hikou/scindo drop relics are getting removed. Much to everyone's annoyance, prime vault is still gonna be a thing.

 

and old Void was much more grindy. You literally had to play the same missions to farm every time. Fissures let you pick from much more game modes (such as spy, which is one of my favourite modes), and also on varying planets and factions (including old void).

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)Rey Za BurreI said:

Enjoy grinding on top of grinding on top of more grinding.

But this is the exact same system as before except you can now bump favors in your odds, people need to provide their own keys, and the location isn't always made of gold. You know how thirsty people were for T3/T4 exterminates and Mobile Defenses only to have to farm them again when the part didn't drop. They had an abysmally low drop chance in interceptions and excavation. My group would collectively sigh every time a defense or survival key dropped. T4 actually laughed at you and gave you fusion cores. That was the real grind on top of the grind.

If it was defense/survival/interception you had to first run it over with everyone first that rotation C was NOT the 15th wave, and also you had to sit there for 20 minutes straight before you had a single chance at the part you wanted. Why did people have stockpiles of certain keys? They didn't want to do 'em. It was tedious. They call simply being able to jump into a capture fissure and get all their keys unlocked easily tedious? The @(*()$ nerve.

Btw, without grind there is no game. It's stick without the carrot.

[War-Zone]

2 hours ago, BPNPC said:

Many people have said the new prime grind is significantly worse than pre-SotR, and I'll admit I was one of those people. You have to grind for relics to grind for traces to grind for parts, which are several extra layers of grind. However, despite all logic and common sense, it seems the new grind isn't worse than before.

Why? Trade prices.

After lurking trade chat USE for a few hours yesterday and today, I've discovered that Nekros Prime prices have not differed significantly from previous Prime prices at launch. Currently, Nekros BP/Systems sits on average between 120-180p, and these are the most expensive Nekros parts because of their rarity. This is not significantly different from previous rare Prime parts at launch, e.g. Vauban Systems, Saryn Chassis, Ash Systems/BP, which all sat in that price range. In some cases Nekros Prime is actually cheaper; a full Trinity Prime set at launch could sell for 500p+, while Nekros P yesterday was between 400-500.

(Note that these are prices I observed in trade chat, not Warframe market. I did not use Warframe market because records don't exist of PA launch prices.)

Why do trade chat prices have to do with grind? Simply put, the Warframe trade economy is dictated by supply and demand, and this relationship is extremely noticeable during new PA launches. Demand for new Prime frames at launch has always been extremely high, and there's no reason to believe Nekros is an exception; demand for Nekros can be assumed to be the same as for previous Prime releases (or possibly even less, since Nekros isn't as popular as Trinity or Ash).

Supply is the changing factor with the new Void rework, but in fact supply has not changed, because demand remained the same and prices remained the same. If the post-SotR really did get worse, you'd expect supply to decrease, which would be visible in an increase in prices of Nekros parts relative to pre-SotR. Such a price increase was not seen. Thus, supply did not change, and thus the new Void rework is not significantly worse than before. 

I'm honestly puzzled by this, because I was positive the new Void rework was grindier than before and expected a massive increase in Prime prices at launch. There are two reasons I can come up with to explain the discrepancy:

• Relics have higher drop rates and can drop from multiple rotations, which, even when coupled with additional Radiant RNG, is better than the dreaded 5% drop rate in T3D.
• Starchart missions for relics are easier, more accessible, and less repetitive than Void missions

Note: This is all done using launch prices, which are all we have access to for Nekros. A few weeks or months down the line, when prices have stabilized more, we will have a better idea of pricing.

tl;dr - Nekros Prime prices are same as previous Prime prices, this means grind did not worsen

Everything you said had nothing to do with the new systems grind. You're discussing a whole other grind system... trade chat. Just because trade prices were still the same when you happen to be in trade chat, doesn't mean in any way that DE didn't add yet another two layers of grind. The first being relic refinement and second being brand new relics EVERY new prime access.

On top of it all they make changes like this and could care less about quality of life. Do you see DE adding a relic matching system to make teaming with other players easier?

How hard would it be to create a que, select the relic type and refinement level then go off to your mission? If you can't find a full squad of four then everyone that's in the que can vote to go without a full squad. But you can't join the que without having the proper relic. Not that hard.

How about the spawn issues we STILL have in excavations? we have to chase down power cores half the mission cause DE has yet to fix it.

These changes are made mostly without YOU in mind. Yes we complained about the repetitiveness of the old void and yes the new system IMO is slightly more interesting. But did DE do anything to help the QoL for the players? No, they dropped in the new system, then adjusted it, then said now your old relics are useless.

This is why I stopped paying for the the game, as much as I have enjoyed Warframe for the past three years, since the second dream they have gone out of their way to make decisions like this. I just can't agree. I don't think they know the difference between fun and annoying any more.
 

Edited August 25, 2016 by War-Zone