Despite all common sense, new Prime grind is not worse

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

4 minutes ago, War-Zone said:

then said now your old relics are useless.

But that's not true. It has an older drop table. It used to just disappear with newer prime releases, and now everyone gets a memento. I remember people saying Ember Prime blueprints used to be common as hell. Now imagine with the new inflated pricing for her blueprint and going through your inventory and literally having a goldmine of relics. Now that's not applicable today but you could see how that could be beneficial right?

[War-Zone]

Just now, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

But that's not true. It has an older drop table. It used to just disappear with newer prime releases, and now everyone gets a memento. I remember people saying Ember Prime blueprints used to be common as hell. Now imagine with the new inflated pricing for her blueprint and going through your inventory and literally having a goldmine of relics. Now that's not applicable today but you could see how that could be beneficial right?

It is true. If they release new relics every new PA then rework the old ones then your relics become useless if you have farmed everything from those relics.

Yes ember prime like any other prime became common. Was it when she was released? no it's the same as now. Yes we can stock pile old relics then try to farm them to get vaulted rare parts, sure. But that's not what i'm talking about at all.

The relics you're farming right now for the new PA will no longer be useful for a future PA... like the old key system. You get a choice of one reward instead of four or more. This change is a huge slap in the face to vets after DE saying that our void keys will still have value after the new system was released... value is a very subjective word.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

What a massive jump in logic. Next thing you'll be telling me that the world is flat because you can't see past the edge of the ocean. LOL.

Just to clear: I am saying your conclusion is ridiculous. Correlation != causation.

Edited August 25, 2016 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

2 minutes ago, War-Zone said:

It is true. If they release new relics every new PA then rework the old ones then your relics become useless if you have farmed everything from those relics.

Yes ember prime like any other prime became common. Was it when she was released? no it's the same as now. Yes we can stock pile old relics then try to farm them to get vaulted rare parts, sure. But that's not what i'm talking about at all.

The relics you're farming right now for the new PA will no longer be useful for a future PA... like the old key system. You get a choice of one reward instead of four or more. This change is a huge slap in the face to vets after DE saying that our void keys will still have value after the new system was released... value is a very subjective word.

I don't know about yours, but my keys still have value. For instance, Hikou. I sold my old ones. Kinda want them back. Pre SotR I'd have to consult trade chat. Now I have he chance to farm for them, since I have plenty of relics from that point in time.

In fact, relics have more value than before. 

1. now you don't HAVE to subject yourself to time consuming missions to have a chance to get that part you need.

2. Drop tables have been altered. Many hard to get parts are now common. And many common items are now rare. Which means vets will usually be able to get sets much much quicker since they have a stockpile of the once easy to get pieces. Example A: Nova Systems

3. Many see this as a point against it, but I rather like it. No one gets a free pass. Want a prime item? Offer up a relic. Before an entire team could benefit from a single key, which meant 3 other people were getting something for little effort on their part.

[BPNPC]

28 minutes ago, War-Zone said:

 You're discussing a whole other grind system... trade chat.
 

Where do you think trade chat sellers get their prime parts from? There's no mystical void of prime parts privy to traders. The sellers in trade chat either farmed parts themselves or bought parts from someone who farmed it. In either case, increased grind would still cause a decrease in supply.

7 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

What a massive jump in logic. Next thing you'll be telling me that the world is flat because you can't see past the edge of the ocean. LOL.

Just to clear: I am saying your conclusion is ridiculous. Correlation != causation.

I explained very thoroughly why an increase in grind will cause an increase in Prime prices. If you think otherwise, you need to present a counterargument, e.g. some third factor.

[DatDarkOne]

I absolutely love the Fissure Spy missions.  I get to kill so many birds with one stone on top of doing it in a mission that I like.  In one mission, I can gain lots of Focus, rank up gear, and get traces.  You can almost treat them like an endless mission if you want.  

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

1 hour ago, BPNPC said:

I explained very thoroughly why an increase in grind will cause an increase in Prime prices. If you think otherwise, you need to present a counterargument, e.g. some third factor.

I already did. The counter argument is that correlation does not equal causation. All you have done is notice that the new system correlates with similar plat prices. You have not done anything to "prove" that the two are related or even investigated other probable causes. You simply saw that they two exist at the same time and jumped to a conclusion that you already wanted to draw.

Edited August 25, 2016 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[SweetJackal]

I will say the grind is not worse.  Because running the same mission over and over again in the tower when I needed a 4 stack keyshare just to get any hope of value out of a large number of keys or wrangle all of my working clanmates into a session was pretty well the worst.  There is a lot of good change that came with this new system.

 

One of the major problems with this system is that Keys/Relics no longer carry over and Key/Relic consumption has increased without an increase in their droprate.  The redeeming quality of the old system was that if I had everything in T2E I needed I could hold onto those keys for when something on that drop list got vaulted and I would have a nice starting stock to try to get the item that replaced it.  Instead now those Relics that have no other value to me than fodder for traces have to be run for those traces so I can get the Relics that do have parts I need turned to up in their drop chances.  Now I have to run through and grind up those Relics that have the new parts from scratch.  Likewise higher consumption of relics in a shorter timeframe because every fissure run will only introduce one prime part per player, consumes a relic per player, and fissure runs being shorter increases the demand for relics and has a single relic not go as far.

 

They have talked about increasing the drop locations for relics but I haven't noticed it in the game yet.

[War-Zone]

25 minutes ago, (XB1)DRG JupiterIvan said:

I don't know about yours, but my keys still have value. For instance, Hikou. I sold my old ones. Kinda want them back. Pre SotR I'd have to consult trade chat. Now I have he chance to farm for them, since I have plenty of relics from that point in time.

In fact, relics have more value than before. 

1. now you don't HAVE to subject yourself to time consuming missions to have a chance to get that part you need.

2. Drop tables have been altered. Many hard to get parts are now common. And many common items are now rare. Which means vets will usually be able to get sets much much quicker since they have a stockpile of the once easy to get pieces. Example A: Nova Systems

3. Many see this as a point against it, but I rather like it. No one gets a free pass. Want a prime item? Offer up a relic. Before an entire team could benefit from a single key, which meant 3 other people were getting something for little effort on their part.

Very simply, YOU have found value in them. That doesn't mean someone else finds it has no value.

I valued having keys available so that I can farm the new parts when they come out. I feel like I earned that right by paying and playing this game for three years. Do I wan't to grind trade chat to find value for my now useless keys that I can no longer use to farm new prime parts? no. But you call it a free pass.

And DE has ALWAYS altered drop tables and made rare parts common and vise versa... EVERY PA.

And none of this changes the fact that DE added additional grind to the game.

Edited August 25, 2016 by War-Zone

[War-Zone]

36 minutes ago, BPNPC said:

Where do you think trade chat sellers get their prime parts from? There's no mystical void of prime parts privy to traders. The sellers in trade chat either farmed parts themselves or bought parts from someone who farmed it. In either case, increased grind would still cause a decrease in supply.

I explained very thoroughly why an increase in grind will cause an increase in Prime prices. If you think otherwise, you need to present a counterargument, e.g. some third factor.

And like I said, the parts you saw were going for a certain price at the time you were there. Keep watching, you'll see them go up and down all the time. That's just how it is. Does this in any way show that DE didn't add more levels of grind to farming prime parts? No. It's a fact that we have to do more now in order to get those parts then we did before. So what you're saying doesn't make sense. 

Edited August 25, 2016 by War-Zone

[BBOTAA]

How is it better if just to get the relic I want, i have to grind defenses or survivals, like I did for the prime parts?
Someone mention you had to do 50hrs of survival to get the part you want, now I have to do it to get the relic I want. Then farm traces, then farm the prime part.

Not mention meanwhile i would get some value out of those runs like formas and ducats.Now i get vitality mods and serration and mods like that.

It didn't change nothing for the better and about getting relic on A rotation when you didn't get there keys, now you spend one relic for one prime part or a forma, and ducats are horrible to get.. since the common drops now all worth 15, when back then you could get those nyx system, ash helmets, loki parts and other common drops that sold for 50 ducats. I could do a sab t4 in 7 min solo or less with a tram and bring 100 ducats, now a fissure mission takes longer than that because you'll reach the end or someone didn't collect enough reactant and has to backtrack the all map, or because the enemies didn't drop enough reactant on extermination, or because someone want to find caches, or because joined the game and you already completed the objective and much more but much more things that makes running fissure an pain for me to run fissures.

About the prices, it's easy to understand specific prime parts got easyer to get, it's true but you can't base your only on suplly and demand when for some relics you just had a huge stock previously acquired it's obvious if the grind now is getting the relics,not the parts...If i have a huge stock of relics that allow me to get more targeted parts the prices will drop, but now when those relics are consumed and you start having scarcity of relics we will see what happens to the prices...

[BPNPC]

1 hour ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

I already did. The counter argument is that correlation does not equal causation. All you have done is notice that the new system correlates with similar plat prices. You have not done anything to "prove" that the two are related or even investigated other probable causes. You simply saw that they two exist at the same time and jumped to a conclusion that you already wanted to draw.

I've seen people make the correlation = causation fallacy many times, but this is the first time I've seen the opposite: someone with no idea of what the correlation=causation fallacy means accuses someone else of making it.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

4 minutes ago, BPNPC said:

I've seen people make the correlation = causation fallacy many times, but this is the first time I've seen the opposite: someone with no idea of what the correlation=causation fallacy means accuses someone else of making it.

Attacking me doesn't make you any less wrong. You haven't proved anything.  Like I said, you haven't proved one causes the other or accounted for other factors.

[PrivateRiem]

Vauban Prime's parts are nothing but rare drops.

Nekros Prime has 2 rare parts, 1 common and 1 uncommon.

 

 

The reason the grind doesn't appear worse is because the drop tables for Nekros Prime and co are actually not as god awful as Vauban's "Rare, Rare everywhere"

I rest my case.

Edited August 25, 2016 by PrivateRiem

[AM-Bunny]

I can't believe someone would use launch day trading prices to scale an item's value.

There are a lot of people with excess amounts of plat that will pay huge amounts to get Nekros Prime immediately, and there are sellers who will take advantage of this willingness. It doesn't have anything to do with the grind required, it has to do with the craze of new items.

Give it a month or two, then look at trading prices and see how they stack up.

[BPNPC]

5 minutes ago, AM-Bunny said:

I can't believe someone would use launch day trading prices to scale an item's value.

There are a lot of people with excess amounts of plat that will pay huge amounts to get Nekros Prime immediately, and there are sellers who will take advantage of this willingness. It doesn't have anything to do with the grind required, it has to do with the craze of new items.

Give it a month or two, then look at trading prices and see how they stack up.

I already mentioned it in the OP that we'll get a better grasp once prices have stabilized. That being said, the launch day craze you described was also present in previous PA launches and doesn't significantly change the comparison with this one.

[Loswaith]

@BPNC: Accept your forgetting a huge factor, Nekros prime is a COMMON drop (bit of a switch there by DE that havent made prime frames common before), trinity was an UNCOMMON and RARE drop.  Thus you are comparing the prices of a common drop to uncommon/rare drops.  The price is about the same however, which would circumstantially mean the new items that are common drops are as hard to gain as the uncommon and rare drops were previously.

 

But hey let me place this comment here too that shows some maths (and let ppl determine for themselves):  

22 hours ago, Loswaith said:

To get a relic to pristine you need to do about 5 missions to get the traces (you get an average of 18 traces per mission without boosters), so 6 missions in total.  Thus at the ~5.64% that was the lowest drop rates in the old system doing those 6 missions would have given you a ~29.4% chance to have gotten at least one of the rare part (for everyone of any group size).  

To get close to that now you need at a minimum 3 players all with identical pristine relics (thus 300 traces and 3 relics for 27.1% chance, if you only use the relics at the end), to get roughly the same chance of at-least gaining it once, despite having the choice of what you get.  All in all players get one reward, as opposed to all players getting at minimum 6 rewards, unless you use more relics when trace farming.  

At the end of the day only 4 identical relics fully pristine is better (~34.4% chance), but costs 400 traces and 4 relics (presuming trace farming without relics).  While 7 or 8 keys would have gotten similar chances (~33.39% and ~37.15% respectively) presuming just one loot per key and irrelevant of the group size (while giving rewards along the way).

 

Edited August 25, 2016 by Loswaith

[SkadiNyx]

20 minutes ago, PrivateRiem said:

The reason the grind doesn't appear worse is because the drop tables for Nekros Prime and co are actually not as god awful as Vauban's "Rare, Rare everywhere"

That's funny, because to me, it looks worse, mostly because Nekros parts drops on new relics. 
When Vauban was released, I already had most of the keys required to get him, Akstiletto and Fragor. I only had to farm one or two specific keys for the missing parts, then do braindead Void runs hoping to get the parts. 

Now, I just feel discouraged with Nekros release. I have to farm at least 5 different types of relics, then upgrade the relics, then make a Void run with my upgraded relic, get a sh*tty loot and repeat. It's just like " Oh, you played the game before ? Too bad, it doesn't count ! Go farm some new relics, because the ones you already have are useless. "... 
 

[(PSN)ArnnFrost]

People complained about the grind and saying it was increased, people were able to farm whole sets of Galatine P, Tigris P and Nekros P in just one day and now selling them for 500p in PS4 .... these complaints seem legit, Dayum!

Edited August 25, 2016 by (PS4)ArnnFrost
Spare me the sodium machines, please try before you complain- Regards

[Andaius]

3 hours ago, (XB1)Rey Za BurreI said:

Oh plz, people love trying to defend this new system. Enjoy grinding on top of grinding on top of more grinding. Oh and remember to eat your own words when you aren't able to get the relics you want because the drop table is so flooded with over 100 different relics.

Yeah... they remove vaulted keys like the guy above said, you uust get to keep the keys you have already for vaulted items. Iirc they said they are going to keep a set range of relic available at once. So those words of your, ready to eat them?

[ThunderZsolt]

I think the demand is much lower than in the case for trin/ash, but about the same as booben. nice observation!

3 hours ago, Obviousclone said:

and old Void was much more grindy. You literally had to play the same missions to farm every time. Fissures let you pick from much more game modes (such as spy, which is one of my favourite modes), and also on varying planets and factions (including old void).

yeah, you play different missions, but in the old system you've played the same mission 30 times, now you can choose from 3 to play 75 times, so in the end you've still played each of the 3 almost 30 times. it is more grindy from this point of view.

i admit, the new system itself is better, but the trace drops are so low that it is a slight increase of the grind (same time spent, you get the part, but less ducats earned)

[(XBOX)Rey Za BurreI]

3 hours ago, Obviousclone said:

they uhhhh

 

are removing vaulted relics

 

like the nyx/hikou/scindo drop relics are getting removed. Much to everyone's annoyance, prime vault is still gonna be a thing.

 

and old Void was much more grindy. You literally had to play the same missions to farm every time. Fissures let you pick from much more game modes (such as spy, which is one of my favourite modes), and also on varying planets and factions (including old void).

First of all, nobody like Spy missions. Second of all, nothing has changed, missions are still repetitive. There is no getting around that. Third of all, it is more grindy. You have to grind for new relics, you have to grind for void strands, you have to grind for those parts, and then grind for resources. Previously all you had to do was farm keys and then go into a void mission to earn parts. Not only that you had multiple chances of getting certain drops, compared to now where you only get 1 chance of getting a certain drop. Even if I got the drop I didn't want, I left out of the void with 3+ drops. Now you get only 1 drop. So instead of getting 3+ crappy drops + a rare drop, you get one crappy or one rare drop.

[SilvaDreams]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)Rey Za BurreI said:

First of all, nobody like Spy missions. Second of all, nothing has changed, missions are still repetitive. There is no getting around that. Third of all, it is more grindy. You have to grind for new relics, you have to grind for void strands, you have to grind for those parts, and then grind for resources. Previously all you had to do was farm keys and then go into a void mission to earn parts. Not only that you had multiple chances of getting certain drops, compared to now where you only get 1 chance of getting a certain drop. Even if I got the drop I didn't want, I left out of the void with 3+ drops. Now you get only 1 drop. So instead of getting 3+ crappy drops + a rare drop, you get one crappy or one rare drop.

Lots of people love spy missions, I use to be "meh" about them because I wasn't good at stealthing it up but now I kinda like playing them and just ninja-ing about finding paths I now feel like an idiot for missing in the past....

Now I just hate Nightmare Sabotage because some idiot Always sticks a fuel cell in.... Ya smart idea.. fire damage with no sheilds >_>

[Vali]

I'm already finished with Nekros Prime and half way done with Tigris/ Galatine.

We might be burning a lot more keys, but we are getting the desired parts much faster. Gj DE on reducing grind, unlike spamming the old Void, I quite enjoyed my time farming this prime access. 

[SkadiNyx]

10 minutes ago, (XB1)Rey Za BurreI said:

First of all, nobody like Spy missions.

They are still really easy to do once you know the patterns, they are quick and they give a free relic all the time. With one person per point and one killing Void enemies, you can have the Prime loot plus a relic plus some bonus rewards in 5 minutes. For me, they are the best missions of the new Void because of this ( I like Hive too, but no free relic... ). 
The only problem with Spy missions is that you have to be with your own group, because when you play with randoms, everyone is just waiting to get carried and you have to do the three points alone.