Despite all common sense, new Prime grind is not worse

[(PSN)rengence]

Can you explain why in-game market has anything to do with grind? There is absolutely no relationship...

Edited September 4, 2016 by (PS4)rengence

[Helch0rn]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)rengence said:

Can you explain why in-game market has anything to do with grind? There is absolutely no relationship...

The more people offer a product for sale the lower the prices get

If the prices drop faster now we can conclude that more people want to sell in the same period of time compared to previous PAs

More sellers in the same span of time = easier part acquisition 

[(PSN)rengence]

Just now, Helch0rn said:

The more people offer a product for sale the lower the prices get

If the prices drop faster now we can conclude that more people want to sell in the same period of time compared to previous PAs

More sellers in the same span of time = easier part acquisition 

Again how does this relate to grind? I don't need an explanation for supply and demand.

[Helch0rn]

Just now, (PS4)rengence said:

Again how does this relate to grind? I don't need an explanation for supply and demand.

Read the last sentence I wrote. 

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see the correlation between the number of sellers and the rarity of an item

[(PSN)rengence]

14 minutes ago, Helch0rn said:

Read the last sentence I wrote. 

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see the correlation between the number of sellers and the rarity of an item

what does this "correlation" have to do with grind?

[Vali]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)rengence said:

what does this "correlation" have to do with grind?

Where do people get parts to trade? Fissures.

Why is the price much lower than other Prime Accesses? Due to a large supply in the market. 

If there is currently a large supply of rare items, what does that mean? The average drop rate for rare parts has been increased, the average grind is reduced. 

It really doesn't take too much thinking to understand how the market corresponds to the grind for specific items. 

[(PSN)rengence]

Price of Nekros is low because nobody likes Nekros as much as the other primes on release. If you were around since U14, you would see that. Nekros prices aren't effected by fissures. RNG is no longer a factor to effect prices in market anymore regarding prime parts. Ppl think some are rare, they farm those. Leaving others to neglect. I'm guessing you think that the market is all supply and demand. That is what your argument is. Okay. That is not what this is about. This is about the OP suggesting prices effect generated content. That is an inaccurate relationship. 

[Vali]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)rengence said:

Price of Nekros is low because nobody likes Nekros as much as the other primes on release. If you were around since U14, you would see that. Nekros prices aren't effected by fissures. RNG is no longer a factor to effect prices in market anymore regarding prime parts. Ppl think some are rare, they farm those. Leaving others to neglect. I'm guessing you think that the market is all supply and demand. That is what your argument is. Okay. That is not what this is about. This is about the OP suggesting prices effect generated content. That is an inaccurate relationship. 

Nekros is actually much more preferred compared to Vauban. Not to mention Tigris Prime and Galatine Prime after the first weeks of release already dropped prices below that of Akstiletto Prime and Fragor Prime about one month after those releases. 

Prices don't effect generated content, the generated content is what effects the prices. 

Larger supply of items = lower prices.

Large supply = quicker acquisition = less average grind.

[(PSN)rengence]

7 minutes ago, Agentawesome said:

Nekros is actually much more preferred compared to Vauban. Not to mention Tigris Prime and Galatine Prime after the first weeks of release already dropped prices below that of Akstiletto Prime and Fragor Prime about one month after those releases. 

Prices don't effect generated content, the generated content is what effects the prices. 

Larger supply of items = lower prices.

Large supply = quicker acquisition = less average grind.

Comparing a bad release frame to the next worse release frame doesn't help your point. Prime release should have ended after the most hyped and sought prime, ash prime. 

Yes. generated content effects prices like I stated.

and yes, you understand what supply and demand is. 

[TennoPain]

On 25/08/2016 at 1:53 AM, BPNPC said:

Many people have said the new prime grind is significantly worse than pre-SotR, and I'll admit I was one of those people. You have to grind for relics to grind for traces to grind for parts, which are several extra layers of grind. However, despite all logic and common sense, it seems the new grind isn't worse than before.

Why? Trade prices.

After lurking trade chat USE for a few hours yesterday and today, I've discovered that Nekros Prime prices have not differed significantly from previous Prime prices at launch. Currently, Nekros BP/Systems sits on average between 120-180p, and these are the most expensive Nekros parts because of their rarity. This is not significantly different from previous rare Prime parts at launch, e.g. Vauban Systems, Saryn Chassis, Ash Systems/BP, which all sat in that price range. In some cases Nekros Prime is actually cheaper; a full Trinity Prime set at launch could sell for 500p+, while Nekros P yesterday was between 400-500.

(Note that these are prices I observed in trade chat, not Warframe market. I did not use Warframe market because records don't exist of PA launch prices.)

Why do trade chat prices have to do with grind? Simply put, the Warframe trade economy is dictated by supply and demand, and this relationship is extremely noticeable during new PA launches. Demand for new Prime frames at launch has always been extremely high, and there's no reason to believe Nekros is an exception; demand for Nekros can be assumed to be the same as for previous Prime releases (or possibly even less, since Nekros isn't as popular as Trinity or Ash).

Supply is the changing factor with the new Void rework, but in fact supply has not changed, because demand remained the same and prices remained the same. If the post-SotR really did get worse, you'd expect supply to decrease, which would be visible in an increase in prices of Nekros parts relative to pre-SotR. Such a price increase was not seen. Thus, supply did not change, and thus the new Void rework is not significantly worse than before. 

I'm honestly puzzled by this, because I was positive the new Void rework was grindier than before and expected a massive increase in Prime prices at launch. There are two reasons I can come up with to explain the discrepancy:

• Relics have higher drop rates and can drop from multiple rotations, which, even when coupled with additional Radiant RNG, is better than the dreaded 5% drop rate in T3D.
• Starchart missions for relics are easier, more accessible, and less repetitive than Void missions

Note: This is all done using launch prices, which are all we have access to for Nekros. A few weeks or months down the line, when prices have stabilized more, we will have a better idea of pricing.

tl;dr - Nekros Prime prices are same as previous Prime prices, this means grind did not worsen

this is time game ..it takes longer now = u lose time 

[SilentFears]

On 05/09/2016 at 3:03 AM, (PS4)rengence said:

Again how does this relate to grind? I don't need an explanation for supply and demand.

Let me see if i can help you.

The more something drop - the less the price for it. The easier is something to get - the lower the price of it on the market.

So for example there are very few surviving Ember Prime Sets - so the price for it is going sky high. Where Nyx Prime is easy as hell to get and dirt cheap. Two very potent prime warframes - yet the price is amazingly different. 

 

Fact is Nekros Prime while brand spanking new and can already be gotten for as cheap as 300p or lower speaks volumes about the new system.

 

 

Anyhow on topic. Just returned after 6 months of inactivity and was a bit confused whit the new system. But half an hour on wiki cleared everything up. And i must say i mostly like the new system. Its fast, its simple, odds of getting desired item is clear. All in all good. The one thing i miss however is the long arse survival fights you could get whit a good team. I really did love the one hour run in survival T3 ect. But oh well. We gain something we lose something :)

[Nocam]

On 8/25/2016 at 1:49 AM, (XB1)Rey Za BurreI said:

First of all, nobody like Spy missions.

Speak for yourself. I love Spy and Rescue missions. I stealth my way through Exterminate missions. Hell, I stealth my way through every mission I can. Ivara is tied for favorite frame for this reason. With her Cephalon Suda augment, which lets her Prowl through laser barriers, they're a breeze now. I joined the game for the stealh aspects and haven't looked back. I even put hush on my rifles, so I can stealth through missions I want to use a different Frame for.

Also, I like how you told someone who stated Spy missions are their favorite, that no one likes spy missions...

Good logic there.

Anyway, back to Lurking.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

13 minutes ago, Nocam said:

Speak for yourself. I love Spy and Rescue missions. I stealth my way through Exterminate missions. Hell, I stealth my way through every mission I can. Ivara is tied for favorite frame for this reason. With her Cephalon Suda augment, which lets her Prowl through laser barriers, they're a breeze now. I joined the game for the stealh aspects and haven't looked back. I even put hush on my rifles, so I can stealth through missions I want to use a different Frame for.

Also, I like how you told someone who stated Spy missions are their favorite, that no one likes spy missions...

Good logic there.

Anyway, back to Lurking.

That's ironic because Spy missions are better done with rushing than stealth. 

[Nocam]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

That's ironic because Spy missions are better done with rushing than stealth. 

 

Depends on the player. I only rush with capture missions. and some exterminate. but Spy and Rescue, I never rush. My goal is all three vaults, with no alarms. Best rewards, after all.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Just now, Nocam said:

 

Depends on the player. I only rush with capture missions. and some exterminate. but Spy and Rescue, I never rush. My goal is all three vaults, with no alarms. Best rewards, after all.

Last I checked, the only difference is the credits. The extra speed from rushing the vaults more than makes up for the credits. 

[Nocam]

Just now, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Last I checked, the only difference is the credits. The extra speed from rushing the vaults more than makes up for the credits. 

then you should check again. Relics, blueprints, mods, affinity, etc. there's a whole table for it. How do you think I got my Ivara in the first place?

 

I like to take my time. I'm a precision and tactics guy.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

3 minutes ago, Nocam said:

then you should check again. Relics, blueprints, mods, affinity, etc. there's a whole table for it. How do you think I got my Ivara in the first place?

 

I like to take my time. I'm a precision and tactics guy.

I looked it up. Affinity is the only difference between getting the vault with or without setting off the alarms.  So rushing the vaults is still better.

I have Ivara too, BTW. 

[ArcaneSnowdrop]

The grind isn't necessarily as bad, I guess, but the missions themselves are worse. I could do tons of void keys in a day, provided I/a friend had them, but because of the strobing effect of a fissure, I can now only do maybe five on a REALLY good day. ...Also, I do miss the ability to keyshare, I will say. Keysharing was much more efficient on the keys for me.

[Nocam]

Just now, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

I looked it up. Affinity is the only difference between getting the vault with or without setting off the alarms.  So rushing the vaults is still better.

I have Ivara too, BTW. 

So the mods, relics, and blueprints have nothing to do with it, right? I mean, I'm looking at the table, and there's varying rewards I'm seeing, based on how you get the data in the vault. Also, setting off alarms increases defenses, as well as too many alarms causing you to have to clear out the entire map. that gets annoying,. seeing as I don;t go in equipped for exterminating, only for stealth.


Edit: Read it wrong. Mods and all that are based on numbers hacked, not alarms. Alarms just help with affinity and credits. huh. I'e been reading that wrong. Either way, I still prefer the stealthy approach. Helps with leveling weapons and frames as well.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

5 minutes ago, Nocam said:

Edit: Read it wrong. Mods and all that are based on numbers hacked, not alarms. Alarms just help with affinity and credits. huh. I'e been reading that wrong. Either way, I still prefer the stealthy approach. Helps with leveling weapons and frames as well.

No worries. Happens to the best of us. 

Don't get me wrong, I will do them with stealth, solo, when I want a change of pace.  I was just talking about the optimal way of doing them. I go for the optimal way when I am farming for something. 

I do the same thing for other mission types too, though. I will merc Alad V, for example, and if he drops the sensors then I will run to extraction. If not, I will just immediately abort the missions, because it speeds up farming them by a huge amount. 

[Nocam]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

No worries. Happens to the best of us. 

Don't get me wrong, I will do them with stealth, solo, when I want a change of pace.  I was just talking about the optimal way of doing them. I go for the optimal way when I am farming for something. 

I do the same thing for other mission types too, though. I will merc Alad V, for example, and if he drops the sensors then I will run to extraction. If not, I will just immediately abort the missions, because it speeds up farming them by a huge amount. 

optimal is personal preference.

I never abort a mission. For neural sensor farming, I merely drop a distilling extractor in Jupiter and call it a day. Or...build one with the BP I have. I bought the BP for Neurodes, Orokin Cell, and Neural Sensors.

[Hesyol]

Nice someone noticed.

Only really bad thing is that some relics become useless and there is no way to recycle them yet. Everything else is kinda ok. I had awful luck farming Nekros and still got him in 2 or 3 weeks.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

2 minutes ago, Nocam said:

optimal is personal preference.

No, it's not. Optimal is whatever gives the best results, mathematically. No matter how much you would prefer 2 + 2 to equal 5, it's just not going to happen. 

Whether you want to play optimally or not is what is up to personal preference. I never bother with the BP because the costs are ridiculous on all fronts. 100p is too much, and the costs of building them are ridiculous too when you think that there are items that require like 15 orokin cells.

• 250,000 credits
• 750,000 alloy plates
• 750,000 nano spores
• 375,000 salvage
• 15 hours

. . . for one item. Yeah, no thanks.

4 minutes ago, Hesyol said:

Nice someone noticed.

Only really bad thing is that some relics become useless and there is no way to recycle them yet. Everything else is kinda ok. I had awful luck farming Nekros and still got him in 2 or 3 weeks.

I got him in a little over a day, by pure accidental chance. The only system is still better and less grindy. 

[Nocam]

1 minute ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

No, it's not. Optimal is whatever gives the best results, mathematically. No matter how much you would prefer 2 + 2 to equal 5, it's just not going to happen. 

Whether you want to play optimally or not is what is up to personal preference. I never bother with the BP because the costs are ridiculous on all fronts. 100p is too much, and the costs of building them are ridiculous too when you think that there are items that require like 15 orokin cells.

• 250,000 credits
• 750,000 alloy plates
• 750,000 nano spores
• 375,000 salvage
• 15 hours

. . . for one item. Yeah, no thanks.

I have an overabundance of basic resources. so extractors and BPs work for me. It lets me do what I want, without having to farm Alad V.

You and I have different meaning of best results. I play spy for the full rewards. Credits, Affinity, the extra Affinity from stealth kills. To me, that's optimal. Because it levels a Frame and weapons WAY faster than rushing the vault.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

1 minute ago, Nocam said:

I have an overabundance of basic resources. so extractors and BPs work for me. It lets me do what I want, without having to farm Alad V.

You and I have different meaning of best results. I play spy for the full rewards. Credits, Affinity, the extra Affinity from stealth kills. To me, that's optimal. Because it levels a Frame and weapons WAY faster than rushing the vault.

The thing is rushing the vault for the rewards then doing hieracon will get you both quicker. That is the mathematically superior solution making it objectively optimal.