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One Change to Make Ember Viable at All Levels


Teridax68
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On 9/6/2016 at 2:25 AM, Xzorn said:

The argument against augments being part of her validity in end game is also really weak. Esp when Nekros is being used as an example and he's 100% reliant on his augments for every single ability to be competitive at any level. He's just about garbage without his augments after his rework.

I think that argument still holds for that very reason. For sure, Nekros's rework improved his gameplay and fixed some issues (namely him turning into a static loot turret while spamming 3), but didn't solve the issue of his abilities being sub-par until you augment them. Even now, his "main" build makes practically no use of his 1 or 2 because there usually isn't any space left for their respective augments.

On 9/6/2016 at 2:25 AM, Xzorn said:

Make the 2nd best Buff frame in the game more viable for end game please.

... which goes back to the issue here, being that Ember is not innately a buff frame, so not only can she only buff allies through augments, but that's not even meant to be her main contribution. Even the part about her being "the 2nd best Buff frame" is debatable, considering how many more frames out there are far more popular when it comes to buffing allies, namely Rhino, Chroma, Mesa, Volt, Titania and Equinox. Equinox herself, on top of having more innate buffs and debuffs than Ember, even with augments, has an aura that inflicts slash damage with a 100% chance to proc, which scales significantly better than Ember's in later levels and has better base range, despite being only one half of her ult. There is effectively little to no reason to pick Ember when you have Equinox, and Equinox isn't even one of the best frames out there.

This isn't to say Ember is weak, per se. She can steamroll any low-level mission without effort, and with Accelerant she can still do some damage at high levels. The problem is that it's much more difficult for her to reach a point where she can start being relevant late-game, compared to many more frames who just naturally scale decently to the same point. Despite her being good at mostly just one thing (two or three if you count her CC/utility augments), that one thing she does is outclassed by many other frames, who can not only output more AoE damage, but also have a lot more tricks up their sleeve. She doesn't have to have more innate buffing power or crowd control to operate, but she does need her AoE damage to naturally scale well regardless of what competition she's up against.

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18 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Ember's fine; if anything WoF needs gameplay added to it.  We don't need artificial scaling bandaids; we need actual reform of difficulty scaling in this game.  Trying to make frames work around level XXX enemies is not going to work.  

I agree, scaling in Warframe needs to be redone, and I'm personally in favor of removing scaling altogether and changing Warframe's customization to work around flat power (i.e. for every benefit you mod for, you should be trading off something equally important). However, I do think changing WoF to current health damage would add gameplay to it, since it would change its role from a kill-everything perma-nuke to an ability that would basically set up any enemy for execution, since you'd be able to bring any enemy very close to death, but would have to use another source of damage to kill them properly.

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4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I agree, scaling in Warframe needs to be redone, and I'm personally in favor of removing scaling altogether and changing Warframe's customization to work around flat power (i.e. for every benefit you mod for, you should be trading off something equally important). However, I do think changing WoF to current health damage would add gameplay to it, since it would change its role from a kill-everything perma-nuke to an ability that would basically set up any enemy for execution, since you'd be able to bring any enemy very close to death, but would have to use another source of damage to kill them properly.

I can see that, maybe, but it makes more sense to put that as a secondary effect of, say, Fireball's direct hit, instead of effectively having that as a passive on a frame that already does huge damage.  The best part?  It would still be &#! for damage against armored enemies past 50.  

Edited by RealPandemonium
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48 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

I can see that, maybe, but it makes more sense to put that as a secondary effect of, say, Fireball's direct hit, instead of effectively having that as a passive on a frame that already does huge damage.  The best part?  It would still be &#! for damage against armored enemies past 50.  

I think Fireball's more of a simple, direct nuke that you fire at anyone you want to kill, including at targets softened up by WoF, whereas Ember's ult is the ability that a) needs to be less "press 4 to win" at lower levels, and b) would be much better-suited at weakening crowds of enemies via damage. I don't disagree that the ability's damage might suffer against armor scaling, but then again, everything suffers against armor scaling, and current-health damage would suffer a lot less.

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Depends how it would be done.

In general people would just run Equinox on lower level missions if it would be quicker, like people did before the WoF change. It also has the problem that it scales with sonar or mprime and other things so you could archive similar broken things like with a 2 Equinox and a Banshee.

You actually don't need fire quake, it is probably the biggest handicap for you in a L100 sorti if you end up with a firequake Ember, since the player will next to completely negate your main damage what comes from fire buffed head shot crits. I for myself never did mind that Ember is extreme gun play heavy at high levels, even if the amount of scaling is absurd with the state of crit atm. Ember did feel far more unique back in the days of viable status shotguns, since while the frame and the scaling is technically weaker then on others, different to stack fire damage, crit and head shots, you actually just did bypass the highest damage reductions(shields, armor, healer auras) with status what made a Ember with the right and proper modded weapons actually scale incredible well without putting out 300k+ ish weapon dps like it works today.

Assuming DE ever removes the WOF low level face roll, tune down crit dps, make stuff like status shotguns viable again and tune down stuff like the staticor Ember at it's base is probable one of the better balanced dps frames, since it allows good scaling in combination with status and the game play still vastly is about running around and shooting stuff instead of standing in a spot and hitting your ability keys.

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