Jump to content
Dante Unbound: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

Fun Zephyr Rework w/ Pictures


(PSN)RenovaKunumaru
 Share

Recommended Posts

I would just like to make it clear that in my view, the vision for a rework should be to enhance the quality of existing moves. To ensure they maintain their current functionality, however offering new attributes to further their utility and effectiveness in game.

Despite the notions from many players about Zephyrs role and effectiveness is Warframe, Zephyr plays a niche role in utilizing the wind and aerial assault.

Tailwind

Superglide_KHBBS.gif

Tailwind is a move that propels Zephyr in the air with a burst of speed and force. 

Tailwind mechanic now functions as a passive ability, much slower than Tailwind but much greater than sprint. The mechanic resembles the gif presented above as a controlled glide offering speed and evasiveness stat.

Here's how it works:

The mechanic is activated when performing a sprint while airborne. The transition between free fall tailwind is a matter of activating sprint. This mechanic is in addition to the current passive, not a replacement.
 

Edits:

Tailwind acts as a soft landing. 

Review: 

  • Tailwind is now a passive mechanic built into a sprint while airborne.
  • Increased speed and evasiveness while using Tailwind.
  • Bullet jump is reset after casting tailwind. 
  • Zephyr can cancel Tailwind into parkour when colliding with a surface.

 

Divebomb

giphy.gif

Divebomb is a skill that allows Zephyr to take advantage of her height from aerial maneuverability to smash into her foes and cause AoE damage.

Divebomb mechanic should allow free aim targeting for precise positioning of the attack as well as scale with melee damage mods for viability. Casting Divebomb while Grounded causes Zephyr to leap forward and smash the ground causing knockback and impact damage to enemies in front of her.

Here's how it works:

Regardless of where the enemy is pressing 2 will cause Zephyr to dive at that position of the cursor from the air. Melee mods such as Pressure Point, Elementals, as well as Crit mods contribute to the damage like True Steel and Blood Rush so the divebomb damage will no longer be negligible. Also mods such as primed reach could influence impact range, in addition to the power range stat.

Divebomb's recovery animation is reduced when performed from greater heights. This prevents ground spamming as it will take longer to recover from animation when used closer to the ground. Divebomb's range also scales with height.

How it Synergizes: Example:

Zephyr tailwinds through some enemies to rack up a melee combo counter and then continues to the sky where she crashes down on them with divebomb benefiting from melee mods and an increased critical chance from Blood Rush.

Review:

  • Divebomb Scales with Melee mods. Damage, Range, Status.
  • Divebomb targets cursor position when aimed. (air)
  • Divebomb sends a force of wind in a cone to stagger or knockdown foes. (grounded)
  • Divebomb recover animation is faster the greater the height it is cast off the ground.

Tornado

tumblr_mgjyibPCDt1rn5mulo5_500.gif

Zephyr's tornado is a crowd control ability which harness' the winds strength to render her foes into a state of...absurdness? 

Pressing 4 Summons the normal tornadoes that seek out targets and damages foes. The tornadoes have a guaranteed hold time to ensure trapped enemies take the full damage. The tornadoes have a set range defined by the power range stat to ensure that the positioning where they are summoned can be designated as their defending area, not wandering outside of their bounds. The tornadoes also have a range in which each tornado can suction enemies into their CC. Only Zephyr can change the tornadoes element.

Tornadoes damage is inflicted through the current base damage (influenced through power strength), and manipulated by the Dual elements. If corrosive and heat damage are inflicted upon the tornado then the tornado holds both elements. Status Chance is increased on tornadoes.

How it Synergizes: Zephyr summons the tornadoes to trap enemies and provide CC. Tailwinds skill damage still affects enemies within the tornado. Divebomb's (grounded) knockback can push enemies into its effective range.

Review:

  • Tornadoes have a set range based on Power Range.
  • Tornadoes have a "suction" range from base of each tornado.
  • Tornadoes have a guaranteed hold time of enemies. 
  • Tornadoes can hold 2 status types only affected by Zephyr.

History:

Spoiler

Tailwind:

0a46d883b586d9852fa3c79e82d081e73cc98cb3

Tailwind is a move that propels Zephyr in the air with a burst of speed and force. 

Tailwind mechanic can remain the same however, it needs to have functionality beyond mobility therefore I suggest that any enemy within Zephyrs flight path are forced to suffer knockdown and slash procs.

"Flight? Zephyr doesn't..." Zephyr now continues her tailwind in a directed path of her cursor while holding down the 1 ability energy/sec.

Here's how it works:

Press and holding 1 (while in air) will propel Zephyr forward in the direction she is aiming, like normal. However holding 1 will allow her to steer her flight path (or strafe) so she can take to the skies or run into mobs to slash them during her passage between them and knock them down. (Does not need to continue hold for aiming after initial hold; fixes controller conflict) She can aim into a group and then look upwards to move her towards the skies.  Zephyr will not stop her tailwind until 1 is released. Each enemy hit with Tailwind increases the melee combo multiplier. 

Tailwind links into parkour maneuvers. When tailwinding into a surface you can now adjust into movement 2.0 abilities. Tailwinding into a wall? Press jump to switch into a wall run for example. 

Edits:

You cannot slam to the floor with tailwind. Aiming downward will not drive Zephyr to the ground but continue her tailwind above the ground (forward).
Tailwind links into parkour maneuvers.  

Attacking enemies with Tailwind Flight contributes to the melee combo counter.

Review: 

  • Tailwind knocks down while passing through foes.
  • Tailwinding through foes adds to the melee combo multiplier
  • Zephyr can manipulate her tailwind path. Strafing or Control at cursor position
  • Zephyr can cancel Tailwind into parkour when colliding with a surface.

Version 2: Better Suggestion Offered

Pressing 4 Summons the normal tornadoes that seek out targets and damages and throws them while holding 4 recalls them to Zephyrs position for a massive (greater width) single stationary tornado that blocks projectiles for the entire team to fit inside. 

 

Version 1: *Too much like Titania

My Suggestion is to allow Zephyr to summon the same 4 tornadoes around her stationary sucking in targets and dealing damage over time. However, small wind birds will seek out foes and attack them for the lack of movement of the tornados, luring them into its AoE.

 

Bugs Please Fix

Spoiler
On 11/14/2016 at 5:12 AM, (PS4)Gaelic-_-Flame said:

EDIT: Important note though, They have to fix this bug where casting Tailwind mid-flight drags you down with an increased force, because it just nullifies any Aim Glide attempts. Not to mention that it's just an annoying bug.

Any of my ideas too powerful or too weak? Nerf it or buff it for me in comments. Feedback appreciated. +1

Edited by (PS4)RenovaKunumaru
QoL Fixes
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just merge the Dive Bomb (not just ground) impact thing into Tailwind, already : |

Then there'd be a free slot for e.g. something like Banshee's Sonic Boom
(except with more damage and range because SB kinda sucks compared to Pull),
a forward cone / line AoE damage + knockdown CC ability, woot.

(Also, change Banshee's 1 to inflict stationary stun / ragdoll + bleed, because Internal injuries.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Esorono said:

Sounds pretty good, but I have a feeling the coding required for the tornado ult would be too complex to do.

Yeah, I just wanted to dream a little.

7 hours ago, KaizergidorahXi said:

What is that final gif from?

Koei Tecmo's NIOH Beta Demo. Imagine Dark Souls with Samurai/Ninja. I believe its a playstation exclusive, but its extremely fun. In the game you chose a spirit guardian and that gif reflects summoning it.

4 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

Just merge the Dive Bomb (not just ground) impact thing into Tailwind, already : |

 

Despite the fact that I agree with you, I'm a bit torn on that suggestion.

DE has set a sort of precedent in which they don't really remove skills and replace them completely, (except Excal). I actually appreciate that because it protects people who enjoy the original skill, while enhancing its effect ie. Vauban Bounce which everyone considered useless.

I personally love tailwind and I wouldn't want them to change it because some people find it useless. If they can find a way to offer more functionality for it then people wouldn't be able to complain as much. Same thing goes for divebomb. If it had more quality to it, like it being aimable and actually doing damage, then the only complaint you could truly offer is that you don't like it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Despite the notions from many players about Zephyrs role and effectiveness is Warframe, Zephyr plays a niche role in utilizing the wind and aerial assault.

This is for fun.

Tailwind

Tailwind is a move that propels Zephyr in the air with a burst of speed and force. 

Tailwind mechanic can remain the same however, it needs to have functionality beyond mobility therefore I suggest that any enemy within Zephyrs flight path are forced to suffer knockdown and slash procs.

"Flight? Zephyr doesn't..." Zephyr now continues her tailwind in a directed path of her cursor while holding down the 1 ability. 10 energy/sec.

Edits:

You cannot slam to the floor with tailwind. Aiming downward will not drive Zephyr to the ground but continue her tailwind above the ground (forward).

Attacking enemies with Tailwind Flight contributes to the melee combo counter.

I had a similar idea for Tailwind myself. I've been playing since U12 and Zephyr was my first, and a while ago I had posted something similar here on the forums (here). In my version you built up stacks of momentum through using parkour, and were able to use them to enable tail wind allowing for directional movement for however long you want or until you run out of stacks. I don't know if you'd seen my post before but your idea for the ability I feel personally comes straight out of my little idea but I digress.

10 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

Just merge the Dive Bomb (not just ground) impact thing into Tailwind, already : |

Then there'd be a free slot for e.g. something like Banshee's Sonic Boom
(except with more damage and range because SB kinda sucks compared to Pull),
a forward cone / line AoE damage + knockdown CC ability, woot.

(Also, change Banshee's 1 to inflict stationary stun / ragdoll + bleed, because Internal injuries.)

Personally I feel functionally Divebomb being slammed in with Tailwind will clash functionally. Tell me how would the game handle it if I want to tail wind downwards but not have a hard landing or be restricted to a plummet? Combining Divebomb and Tailwind seems like a 'easy-fix' that would hurt in the long run, making the resulting ability no longer useful and difficult to use in a creative way (which is basically all Tailwind ever has been.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Madam_Cloud said:

Tell me how would the game handle it if I want to tail wind downwards but not have a hard landing or be restricted to a plummet?

You could e.g. make it tap to Tailwind, hold to Dive Bomb, I guess.

Although, if you give Tailwind fly-bys better damage / CC capabilities / control, who needs the Dive Bomb impact anymore?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Madam_Cloud said:

I had a similar idea for Tailwind myself. I've been playing since U12 and Zephyr was my first, and a while ago I had posted something similar here on the forums (here). In my version you built up stacks of momentum through using parkour, and were able to use them to enable tail wind allowing for directional movement for however long you want or until you run out of stacks. I don't know if you'd seen my post before but your idea for the ability I feel personally comes straight out of my little idea but I digress.

11 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

I can imagine. This isn't the first time something like this has been suggested, however I've never read your thread until you posted it now. 

I purposely think you may have over complicated a simple mechanic. Just expend energy instead of stacks.

9 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

You could e.g. make it tap to Tailwind, hold to Dive Bomb, I guess.

Although, if you give Tailwind fly-bys better damage / CC capabilities / control, who needs the Dive Bomb impact anymore?

Tailwind would have decent damage and adding to melee combo multiplier will make it good, but with divebomb scaling with melee mods you could make that melee combo multiplier mean something with an AoE slam that is empowered from blood rush.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/5/2016 at 4:07 AM, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Divebomb mechanic should allow free aim targeting for precise positioning of the attack as well as scale with melee damage mods for viability. Casting Divebomb while Grounded causes Zephyr to leap forward and smash the ground causing knockback and impact damage to enemies in front of her.

Huh... I hadn't thought of that. Not a bad idea.

Now I know there's this thing with the Destiny style of ground-pound ability, which I can see the use for when Zephyr is on the ground, but the free-aiming in the air would only be viable if you didn't get any other ability. Never combining it with Tailwind and never getting a new 2 would be the cost and... if it's this way, that might be acceptable.

First off, the hold to continue Tailwind seems a little silly to me. First you're introducing an additional cost that would cause drain for an ability that can, at base, cross most distances necessary anyway. Sure you would get a bonus in those few very long, or broad rooms, like the Corpus Hangar/Chasm, that Grineer asteroid one with the cargo rail down the middle, or the new Stoeffler Defense on Lua (very tall), but anytime else a bullet jump and a tailwind would be far more effective. 

I agree with you on the not putting the Dive Bomb effect onto the end of Tailwind, even if they were combined, it would be repetitive and annoying anytime that you didn't actually want to do it.

Second, the new Tornado is a fair area denial ability, although you'd have to give it a boosted draw radius and then... well that would turn it into a differently animated Vortex that then threw everything around after a duration. the idea for the birds, I would point out, is very much like Titania's butterflies, which may be a point against them. The important thing here is to not tread on toes. A stationary Tornado cast is great, but I think having the funnels able to move around within that casting area would preserve that slight chaotic nature that makes their movement fun.

Third... Yeah, back to the Dive Bomb idea. I like this one.

The addition for scaling off your weapon mods. That's the one I've not thought of before. We've already seen that this can make abilities very powerful, and I do like the concept. It makes for more desire to find and grind mods for best effect in the earlier game, and can open up for interesting ones if things like Life Strike affect it in the later game.

It's the ground-pound ability that makes me think this could be viable as a separate ability from Tailwind, the option to do a charged, but limited range, hop-and-slam would provide a very good switch-up on the ability by changing an AoE blast to a cone-type blast. So you have two different situations, either you want to disrupt a whole group around a point, or you want to attack a group ahead of you. The one needs a Tailwind up and a Dive down, the other needs a short charge-up to balance out the time difference (a little change from your instant cast, because otherwise people would spam the directional cast rather than use the Dive).

So it would be range and power strength affecting the basic ability's range and damage, with a max height/charge providing ragdoll instead of knock-down, and the damage further scales off melee and counts as a melee hit for combo counting on melee builds.

I can see where you're going with this. Myself I really think that the expansion of Zephyr's abilities should include something new, a new 2 by combining Tailwind and Dive Bomb so that they function together as part and parcel of the same ability, they were already designed that way by making the casting cost the same.

But your point has been made. By expanding the abilities themselves, you can produce a far more effective warframe than the base that was designed, and as such this is a very viable idea.

I'm on the fence about it myself, now that you've made the option actually work, since I've been campaigning for so long to get that new function to Zephyr to round her out.

You never know, I may join you on this later, but for now I still want to see the combined Tailwind / Dive Bomb with a new 2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Now I know there's this thing with the Destiny style of ground-pound ability, which I can see the use for when Zephyr is on the ground, but the free-aiming in the air would only be viable if you didn't get any other ability. Never combining it with Tailwind and never getting a new 2 would be the cost and... if it's this way, that might be acceptable.

 

While getting a new ability would be awesome in this instance, I've expressed my concerned in the other thread explaining why I don't think this is the way to go. Keep existing abilities so people who liked them are happy and enhance their functionality so the people who find them useless can be granted additional purpose they can't deny.

27 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

First off, the hold to continue Tailwind seems a little silly to me.

The tailwind mechanic may have just been explained poorly so I'll take an opportunity to be more descriptive.

Tailwind keeps its same properties as normal. Press it while grounded to launch in the air. Press it in air would launch Zephyr in the same direction for the same cost as normal. Now, you and I see the benefit of these maneuvers but I think it can be offered more functionality to have a direct inpact in the fight.

Holding the button would merely allow Zephyr to continue her Tailwind at a reduced cost of a continued cast. 10e/s probably wasn't the best number for that instance so I'll chance it. While holding tailwind you could use that opportunity to continuously run into mobs of enemies quickly like a jet and cause an slash attack and knockdown. Fly through heiricon and knockdown enemies as they approach the excavator. The weaker ones will die from your slash attack while the stronger ones will be stalled for a moments time.

Here's the synergy: For every enemy you hit it counts towards the melee combo counter increasing your damage with melee like moves. Having Divebomb now scale with melee mods you could theoretically tailwind into enemies, rack up a counter, and continue the tailwind high into the sky. Activating Divebomb after would include the melee combo counter bonus (like Atlas's landslide does) and introduce things like crit on Divebomb, with mods like Bloodrush equipped.

The idea behind my tailwind idea wasn't to replace mobility but to introduce more functionality.

41 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

the idea for the birds, I would point out, is very much like Titania's butterflies

I completely forgot she had that Illuminate ability. Console hasn't gotten Titania yet so I missed that comparison completely. Canceling the tornado would be a plus but they most definitely need a damage buff of sorts in my opinion. So back to the drawing board on the changes to the ult. I always consider this one the most difficult and I haven't heard an idea I enjoy a lot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

First off, the hold to continue Tailwind seems a little silly to me

Just wanted to clarify a few more points. The new change would still grant Zephyr a knockdown and damage from casting tailwind with a single button press aimed at enemies but without holding it you wouldn't be able to steer your ending position or continue flying to safety or a setup like what is available now.

 

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

Second, the new Tornado is a fair area denial ability,

Now that you've mentioned Titania to me again I've taken a moment to reevaluate the problems with Tornado in my mind and the conclusion I've gathered is its abysmal damage and lack of control are the culprits to its failures so I have a new idea. 

Pressing 4 Summons the normal tornadoes that seek out targets and damages and throws them while holding 4 recalls them to Zephyrs position for a massive (greater width) single stationary tornado that blocks bullets for the entire team to fit inside. 

Edited by (PS4)RenovaKunumaru
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is one of the more reasonable of the Zephyr rework ideas I've seen. You make a good point - the devs rarely get rid of abilities, but prefer to expand upon those already existing. Recalling tornadoes probably wouldn't be as hard to code as you think. If they followed @Thaylien's pathing idea, it would just be a matter of switching their target.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Zephyr definitely needs some work.  I have actually come up with a few concepts for improving her myself.  Sadly, I do not have fancy gifs to accompany them.

I actually like tailwind as an ability (it is fun to use), but here is how I would change it:

Like Valkyr's ripline, make repeated casts of the ability reduce the energy cost dramatically.  Perhaps reduce initial casting cost.  Remove the damage from the ability (it is bloody useless anyways) and replace it with an extremely large aoe effect around her when she uses the ability which sucks enemies towards her and ragdolls/knocks down.  This would allow her to quickly cc large groups of enemies, or cc enemies on her way to an objective.  The damage on this ability is currently as good as non-existent.  The reason for the very large aoe on the ability is: who mods Zephyr for range.  Seriously.

I really like your ideas for improving divebomb.  In addition to your changes (ability to aim and melee mods), I would also like to see the ability simply have its numbers buffed.  It does insignificant damage and the range is far too small on the ability.  It simply needs a buff to be useful.

Please do not nerf or change turbulence in any way.

Tornadoes are where most of my attention has gone.  I have three ideas to change them.  The first addresses a universal problem that nearly everyone has with them--make shooting the tornadoes deal damage to all enemies inside of them equal to the damage of the shot.  First of all, it makes sense.  You are shooting bullets into a vortex of high-intensity wind which, if anything, should increase the damage they do.  Tornadoes can literally blow wood through cement.  Additionally, most people hate that tornadoes absolutely ruin your ability to aim.  But, with this change, you only need to hit the fairly large target of a tornado.  Finally, people complain that it is very difficult (and it is) to hit enemies affected by the tornadoes--no more.

The second idea I had for tornadoes would be to make shooting them with elemental damage affect them far more than it does now.  For example, shooting the tornadoes with electric damage could summon lightning from the tornadoes, which would do random high-damage hits to enemies in the area of the tornado.  Heat would change them into fire tornadoes (which actually exist), which would dramatically increase the damage taken by enemies inside of the tornadoes.  Cold would create a hailstorm, which would drastically slow enemies in the area and do a small to moderate amount of piercing damage in the general vicinity of the tornadoes.  Caustic would create acid rain, which would reduce enemy armor, and so on and so forth.  Not only would this be visually impressive and feel really awesome, it would drastically improve the tornadoes in an interesting way.

The final idea for tornadoes pretains to the augment.  Wow, does this thing suck.  Why did you make an augment which flat out makes the ability significantly worse?  So, my proposed change would be to make the augment create a single F5 tornado which would drastically increase size and damage of the tornado, but decrease movement speed, potentially acting as a shield from projectiles.

In short, I agree that she needs a rework and buffs in general, and I like your ideas, hopefully you have found mine interesting as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Karav said:

This is one of the more reasonable of the Zephyr rework ideas I've seen. You make a good point - the devs rarely get rid of abilities, but prefer to expand upon those already existing. Recalling tornadoes probably wouldn't be as hard to code as you think. If they followed @Thaylien's pathing idea, it would just be a matter of switching their target.

Thank you for the compliment.

Having the tornados keep their existing function would please those who consider them valuable assets at the moment, while the hold 4 to summon the tornados to Zephyrs position for a stationary position would play to the role of those who believe the tornado should offer a more controlled CC and that it should block projectiles while I hear fairly often.

This plays to concept I explained about keeping existing abilities but improving their functionality to appease both sides of the audience.

1 hour ago, timur_the_lame said:

I actually like tailwind as an ability (it is fun to use), but here is how I would change it:

 

I think we agree on the same concept but just offered 2 different ways of delivering it which is why I just updated the OP.

My method like your own would allow Zephyr to tailwind through enemies to knock them down. It offers a continuous flight technique which can be steered and comes at a lower cost than the initial tailwind (can be influenced with power efficiency) while your method offers sequential casts at a reduced rate. The method I've described compared to yours however causes damage and increases the potential damage of your next melee attacks or dive bomb(because it increases the melee combo counter). It also allows you to steer your position in tailwind.

You wouldn't want to tailwind a single set of enemies. Stop. Jump and then tailwind into another group of enemies when you could just tailwind into the 1st group and then keeping the same momentum turn into the next group. Or perhaps you would. My changes still allow you to do just that if you'd please with the combo counter bonus and damage from the knockdowns still included.

Think of it like this

giphy.gif

Instead of just casting tailwind and then casting again to hit another mob, you would just steer it.

1 hour ago, timur_the_lame said:

Tornadoes are where most of my attention has gone.

Your greatest gripe with the Tornadoes seems to be the damage and trust me, I hear ya brother. The damage is abysmal. I have all the faith in DE that they will adjust that easily with just raising the base damage or allowing the full damage of weapons shot into the tornado be applied. Then thats it. An easy fix. Done deal, but thats only part of where the Tornadoes problem lies.

Its their unpredictability in their nature that have some people twisted which is why I suggested that the tornadoes remain the same in which they seek out targets, but there damage must increase of course. The greater influence to reduce their randomness is to have the ability to hold 4 and have them recalled to Zephyr position. That to me seemed like an opportunity to introduce greater functionality in which I suggested they combine into a large single stationary tornado that proves as an AoD (Area of Denial). With the increase in the tornadoes damage, the augment that currently exists I believe would make more sense.

I too am on the fence of whether tornadoes should be a status attack primarily or a raw damage attack.

I appreciate you reading and offering feedback.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really kinda like this post. I've Been trying to come up with a new 2, but the realization hit that Zephyr is most likely NOT getting a new 2, sadly :(

 

Mind if I make a suggestion?

Divebomb: If Zephyr uses Divebomb and lands on an enemy, that enemy receives extra damage. Zephyr then jumps off that enemy a bit to put herself back into the air. She would not suffer a hard landing either.

Kinda like this

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, EchoesOfRain said:

Divebomb: If Zephyr uses Divebomb and lands on an enemy, that enemy receives extra damage. Zephyr then jumps off that enemy a bit to put herself back into the air. She would not suffer a hard landing either.

 

Amazing. I did not know this existed because I never played league of legends but I literally suggested the exact same think in one of my previous rework threads. I called it Blitz Beak. Great minds eh?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, timur_the_lame said:

The first addresses a universal problem that nearly everyone has with them

7 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Your greatest gripe with the Tornadoes seems to be the damage and trust me, I hear ya brother. The damage is abysmal.

This is my biggest confusion with this is that... it's actually very good damage. People vastly underestimate Tornado in that respect.

At base strength and duration, an enemy picked up by a Tornado funnel can be dealt around 1.5k damage (based on 120 damage per tick over ten seconds plus the 'on hit' damage of 240), depending on how long they are held, say if there is a ceiling and they are held for the entire duration of the ability, that can go up to 3k, which is more damage than a max strength Stomp and out-does the base damage of Tentacle Swarm or Vortex. If you calculate it for a little added Strength and a long Duration, say around 145% Strength and 184% Duration, it ups the tick per second to 174, the 'on hit' damage to 504 (because the 'on hit' damage multiplier is also affected by Strength), and each funnel deals 2.3k damage over the standard 10 seconds, or approximately 7k if held for the whole duration. That's 7k of variable elemental type, able to (for example) provide multiple procs of Viral over that time to ensure that even higher level enemies are dealt with if you're good with the timing.

To put this in context, the closest you can get to that in terms of damage from a simple 'press 4 and watch' is a max strength/duration Miasma, or a max strength Avalanche, which do over 5k each. (Naturally Ash's Bladestorm can out-do it with 7k Finisher damage per attack and 14k of bleed damage, but that's Ash and I'm not getting into that...)

So a single funnel on Tornado is actually on par with the damage of other 4 abilities in the same class.

If we were to use the area denial type ability that Renova and I like to promote (where the cast is limited in range, and enemies have to try and run through it to get to you, like Tentacle Swarm and Vortext), then this damage will become far more viable with enemies potentially being picked up by multiple funnels and dealt that damage repeatedly over the length of the cast. In specific, we want the improvement that means the funnels can't be shot through by enemies just like we can't shoot through them, for a kind of shield effect for you and your team standing on the other side.

It's why I particularly promote the type of Tornado that moves around inside the range of the cast, chasing down enemies that come in, allowing it to have a larger base range and that element of chaotic movement that it currently has, but much better at picking up enemies. This way you can guarantee that any enemy inside the range can be picked up, damaged, thrown, picked up, damaged and thrown again by multiple funnels. At this point it might even be that DE actually nerfs the damage it deals because it's being dealt so much more reliably to multiple enemies for the entire duration.

AND furthermore, why this method would make the Funnel Clouds augment worth it; it would double the base range, and set in motion 12 mini-nado funnels that deal increased damage and can't be shot through, running around and seeking out enemies for maximising that DPS. They may not hard-CC like the big funnels, but ten seconds of exposure to a funnel dealing 240 dps of the element dé jour is going to be pretty nasty to any enemy on the current star chart. My version makes them also inflict stagger each time a funnel hits a new enemy, slowing them down so they can't run through as fast.

Moving on!

You see, I'm actually warming up to the improved Dive Bomb suggestion quite a lot.

Taking a regular, existing Dive Bomb you can currently drop on a Heavy Impact mod and instantly trigger its effect from any height by using Dive Bomb. This being the case I would propose a change in the implementation of the transition between your proposed ground-launch Cone of Effect vs aerial-launch Area of Effect.

To do either move at max range and damage you need to make the wind up matter, so you gain height to make the ability more devastating from above, and charge it up to make it more devastating from the ground. But what's the point of charging up the ground strike if casting it from a short jump can do the same AoE effect as a normal Dive by putting on a Heavy Impact?

So here's the idea: Casting from the ground is a tap to use the base ability and then a charge up for maxing the damage and range, either cast costs the same amount of energy, so it's a 'time of vulnerability' option that players need to keep track of, not a cost investment (similar to the aerial attack, where you have to have time spent gaining height to trigger the best damage). But casting from less than three meters above the ground causes the cone of effect, not the area of effect.

Higher than that, plenty of reason to trigger Heavy Impact or the AoE at minimum damage/range, or both, but lower than three is enough to jump and charge the cone damage, but shouldn't be enough to trigger Heavy Impact.

The reason being that we don't want people spamming the ability to get the cone and the Heavy Impact radial, which would defeat the object of there being two separate sides to the ability, but we do want the Heavy Impact mod to be a secret booster to the radial AoE damage of the ability if people remember to use it ^^

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/7/2016 at 10:58 AM, Thaylien said:

People vastly underestimate Tornado in that respect.

Theoretically, yes. However, in application I have a few gripes with the move.

  • Damage Tick starts at a low base of 120.
  • Status Chance is an unknown variable
  • Power strength contributes an unknown variable with 200% being the initial tick at a neutral 100% power strength
  • Damage decreases with distance, (wtf lol didn't even notice)

That's all I can say with factual evidence because that's all the wiki provides.
 

The damage dealt is insignificant when taking into account scaled enemies that have much higher health and armor.

From my experience:

From my experience on average, an enemy gets suspended for around 8 seconds before they are tossed into the abyss. 
Also if the initial cast of the move does not hit an enemy they are free to wander around aimlessly, not even targeting enemies in their vicinity.

Damage deteriorates with distance is laughable because the initial enemies you cast the move on wont die, even at level 30. 

Other Tenno can alter the damage type of the tornado significantly reducing its effectiveness,

On 9/7/2016 at 10:58 AM, Thaylien said:

You see, I'm actually warming up to the improved Dive Bomb suggestion quite a lot.

 

I'm glad!!

I didn't really pay the ability spam too much mind when it came to grounded Divebomb because Banshee can do it. Then again she doesn't have turbulence. What I would do for this is simple. 

Increase the animation recovery time. It would just take longer for Zephyr to get up after casting it to prevent spam. 
The higher Zephyr is when she does a divebomb, the faster she recovers from it. 

This would play into @EchoesOfRain idea to have Zephyr not suffer a hard landing while addressing your concern of ability spam in which players would be slower from a lower height.

Not sure how complicated that ^^ would be for Devs.

Your idea would come to the same conclusion from what I understand. Holding would make the move take longer to initially cast. Of course your idea comes with the benefit of increased range, damage ect. Not a bad idea in any regard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Theoretically, yes. However, in application I have a few gripes with the move.

  • Damage Tick starts at a low base of 120.
  • Status Chance is an unknown variable
  • Power strength contributes an unknown variable with 200% being the initial tick at a neutral 100% power strength
  • Damage decreases with distance, (wtf lol didn't even notice)

The damage dealt is insignificant when taking into account scaled enemies that have much higher health and armor.

From my experience:

From my experience on average, an enemy gets suspended for around 8 seconds before they are tossed into the abyss. 
Also if the initial cast of the move does not hit an enemy they are free to wander around aimlessly, not even targeting enemies in their vicinity.

Damage deteriorates with distance is laughable because the initial enemies you cast the move on wont die, even at level 30. 

Other Tenno can alter the damage type of the tornado significantly reducing its effectiveness,

-snip-

Yes, RenovaKunumaru said it perfectly.

Even going by Thaylien's numbers, 1.5k damage over ten seconds is extremely pathetic.  My point with the tornado changes wasn't to make the tornadoes inherently do more damage (other than the augment mod--F5), but, rather, to increase the interaction between the tornadoes and players and attempt to remove some annoyance when playing with them.  The tornadoes provide a decent amount of cc, albeit randomly, and the buffs I proposed would allow players to target them to actually kill the enemies affected by them--sort of like a moving, random, and erratic version of Vauban's vortex.  I thought it would be an interesting change that would address two of the primary issues players have with tornadoes, both of which have to do with the fact that tornadoes make it extremely difficult to aim, both in general and at specific targets.  Allowing players to simply hit the tornadoes to do max damage would fix both of those problems.  My proposed augment would give a person to actually use the augment, it would look interesting, and it would fundamentally change the way players used the ability (which, in my opinion, is what a good augment should do)--it would be a mostly stationary defensive ability which dealt high damage to targets which came into contact with it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, timur_the_lame said:

Even going by Thaylien's numbers, 1.5k damage over ten seconds is extremely pathetic.  My point with the tornado changes wasn't to make the tornadoes inherently do more damage (other than the augment mod--F5), but, rather, to increase the interaction between the tornadoes and players and attempt to remove some annoyance when playing with them.

Heh, you're right, from that point, 1.5k is pretty low, except that when you look through the other frames' 4 abilities for the others in the same class (press button and watch) most abilities actually start between 1.5-2k damage and deal more with strength or duration, or both.

My trick to fixing Tornado is, rather than changing how they deal damage/pick up enemies/act as game objects, just to make them able to do what they do more effectively.

If you max Strength any of the abilities in the same class as Tornado you'll notice some strangely low numbers, like Stomp caps out at around 2.8k. The outliers are Avalanche with 5k, Miasma with 5.5k and Bladestorm with over 7k per attack. Fourth and fifth place are actually Crush and Reckoning. You'll notice with all of these that the higher the damage is, the shorter the attack becomes, while Tornado can keep going for far longer.

1.5k damage isn't much, but if you can guarantee that an enemy is picked up at least twice, or three times, if they're around for the entire cast, then you're dealing as much as some of the most damaging single-cast abilities in the game. You won't be able to keep up with the sustain of the Exalted weapons, or the shear burst of abilities like Anti-Matter Drop (nothing can keep up with that, 400k damage in a radius able to drop every 4 seconds? That's 1.6million damage a minute. Nothing can beat it) because they rely on things outside of the ability to do what they do. But single-cast radial abilities that are only affected by your base warframe mods, the average max damage for them is between 3-5k.

So what makes Tornado pathetic is how infrequently it deals that damage unless you unleash all the funnels on a crowd that they can pick up almost all at once.

What makes Tornado annoying is how it scatters loot surviving enemies in random directions, how it moves so slowly, how it has enemy seeking, but in such a small range from each funnel that enemies can walk out of the way and it will just continue off into a corner instead, how its pathing can take it to places that enemies don't actually go so it won't ever find an enemy to seek, and how it does this for such a very, very long time when you have a long duration build going.

I like to think that a simple AI fix can address those points without interfering with how you mod or how you interact with the ability (read; fire and forget after adjusting the element);

Okay, so hear me out on this:

Cap the range, make it affected by mods, from the point of cast. Tornados then patrol the area, moving around and picking up enemies within, damaging and controlling them inside the funnels for a set time each and then releasing them in a vertical launch that prevents them from being stuck against a ceiling and drops them back inside the range of the cast for another funnel to pick them up. The ability lasts for a duration, however can be cancelled and then re-cast at a new location.

This ability style becomes an area denial form of ability, like Vortex or Tentacle Swarm, and like Renova's original idea on the OP, where enemies can see you and target you, but approaching within the area causes CC and damage.

It also allows the funnels themselves to behave in a much more reliable fashion; crossing the boundary of the ability instantly marks an enemy for target seek, you will never have an enemy inside the cast range that isn't being hunted down by a funnel for CC; funnels can move faster and are now mapped to the Nav Mesh that the enemy uses, so they will never travel where an enemy cannot travel, or get stuck in a corner trying to take a short-cut to get there; the funnels can now block enemy fire the same way as they block the players' fire, although their damage type does not over-ride the player's, meaning that standing on the other side of the cast offers a measure of protection. Add in the mechanical release that I already mentioned for ensuring an enemy is kept inside the ability even after being released from the funnel (skeet shooting!), they can have repeated instances of being picked up and damaged over the duration of the cast. 

Player interactivity can be brought in by making the funnels actually do something; aim gliding into them can launch a player (any player) upwards like the Lua agility drift puzzle, while the active cancel/end of ability can do something else; an area stagger as the winds dispel, for that last instant of CC in case you need it, or something to use actively to survivors in order to stagger a group. To finish off; the Augment for Funnel Clouds can still up the damage, and can be adjusted so that it increases the base range so more damaging funnels will be seeking more enemies, while they will still block incoming fire.

You do have a very solid idea on the damage adjustment, though, which I would like to add in, but not in quite so enthusiastic a way (you can skip to the bold part if wall-of-text isn't fun):

I think that the funnels should not just pick up a single element type, and should also pick up proportional IPS damage and the Crit chance from your weapons (not the status, leave the status as good as it currently is). So a Tigris, with all its stats in Slash, modded for Gas/Electric should make a funnel that deals a base 120 Magnetic damage, into a funnel that deals 120 Gas, 60 Electric, 96 Slash, 12 Puncture and 12 Impact, with an additional Crit chance of 5%.

For reference, in this example the max any type can deal is 120, equal to the base damage, so in this case sticking two 90% mods on for Gas and one 90% mod on for Electric would mean that it deals the max damage of 120 Gas, but half damage in Electric so only 60. The IPS would add 120 IPS damage, and as it's 80% Slash, 10% Impact and 10% Puncture, you get 96/12/12 out of the total. So shooting it will at least double the base damage, making it nearly mandatory on each cast if you want to get the most out of it, if not more, but it wouldn't over-power it since the initial cast wouldn't actually change, and pure elemental weapons would only affect the base type, and maybe add in a second or third damage type. A Gammacore, for example, can have its base in Radiation, and then be modded for Corrosive and Blast, so would double the base damage by making the base ability 120 Corrosive (the highest on the list of damage types Tornado prefers), then add 60 Blast and 60 Radiation. Or the Paris can be modded purely for IPS (a crit build) and so would leave the base as 120 Magnetic, but would add 117 Puncture, 2 Slash and 1 Impact, and then add 45% to the Crit chance (the base crit of the weapon). A Tonkor, dealing both Puncture and Blast, modded for Viral and Radiation will actually triple the damage, changing the base to 120 Viral, adding 120 Puncture and adding 60 Radiation and 60 Blast, with an additional 35% crit chance! (Damn that weapon is good...)

In less complex words! The base ability damage doesn't change, but the total damage can be effectively doubled or up to tripled by shooting it, as it gains IPS damage, up to a total of the base damage, and can more by adding in half of the base damage in a second and even third elemental type. In addition the weapon's base Crit damage is added on to the base Crit chance of the funnels, making them even more deadly.

What do you think? At base of 120 per tick could be changed to 360 per tick with a chance to proc up to six statuses to every single enemy (three elements, and IPS procs) with a chance for crit hits too. That 1.5k Damage becomes 5.5k, with a potential to crit every tick, and a potential to proc every tick. Across four funnels, each of which is actively seeking victims within range for the entire duration.

At base, if the ability was to deal 120 damage per tick, double on the pick-up, to a single enemy, if each enemy is held for 10 seconds, and the ability lasts for more than 30 seconds, you're dealing a potential of 5.5k to that enemy over the course of the ability, with a minimum projected of 3k. That's equal to the average of the abilities in the same class.

With these changes, and a well modded Tonkor, you could be dealing (with a neutral strength build, btw) a potential 16.5k while proc'ing viral, radiation, blast and puncture, with a 35% crit chance, (so add 35% damage making 22.2k, on average). That's Ash levels of damage. That's scary levels of damage, especially when you add Strength modifiers on it.

I'm fairly certain that would be pretty satisfying XD

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/9/2016 at 8:05 AM, Thaylien said:

I'm fairly certain that would be pretty satisfying XD

Those are fair points and I'd love for DE to experiment with the idea of incorporating IPS damage into the tunnels based on the weapons damage shot into them.

I do think however that we should foremost request a bit more consistency with the move.

How about a guaranteed amount of time in which enemies are trapped based on power duration, and a number of enemies that can be trapped in the tornado at one time based on power strength. Similar to molecular prime with how the duration affects the range of the move as well as affecting the time in which enemies are primed. Zephyr can have duration affect time of the 4th skill as well as time in which enemies are trapped inside the tornado.That way, we can have some consistent damage numbers to work with.

At that point it should in my opinion decide whether tornadoes should be a primary damage move or a primarily status based move but at least one of those factors need to be at a high percentage. As it stands because of the low status and low damage of the move it wouldn't make sense without addressing on of these concerns. 

With the augment, having 8 tornadoes that do low status and low damage renders them useless. Even with my suggestion to have a guaranteed hold time which would be very beneficial, unless the tornadoes could be manipulated with high status or high damage the augment tornadoes would lose all viability being that they don't hold enemies.

Point being that both of are suggestions feel kind of essential for the skill.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

How about a guaranteed amount of time in which enemies are trapped

Well here's the thing; they currently are. The problem is they aren't necessarily released after the duration, meaning that (because of the damage absorb) they can't be killed by us until the ability ends. If they never reach the top, they don't get launched (like under a ceiling). My idea was all about keeping that duration consistent in order for multiple funnels to pick them up by giving funnels a release function (I do think I mentioned it... I can lose things like that in the walls-of-text I write).

I do like the idea of having duration affect the amount of time held, however I feel that this would discourage any attempt at a negative duration build (for example maxing out the strength for more damage on the new-and-improved Dive Bomb). But the idea with the fixed hold and guaranteed release would be that it wouldn't matter about whether you want it to be a damage ability or a duration ability, it can be both!

Duration affecting the time of the cast, and the idea for a vertical release, means that even if the individual funnels aren't holding an enemy at the time, they don't leave the area that the next funnel can pick them up in, so each enemy is still being held in the ability for the full duration, even if the strength isn't enough to actually kill them. This way it's always a full duration CC, which you can then mod for strength in order to make the most out of the damage.

The range-limited roaming idea is so that there's a distinct difference between Tornado, Tentacle Swarm and Vortex, each one is a lift and hard CC on enemies, but Tornado is a more randomised and potentially far more damaging one, so you would have Vortex as a low-damage, high draw CC ability that can be cast multiple times in different locations, Tentacle Swarm as a medium damage, cast where you will instantly to pick up targets CC, but at the cost of losing the previous cast, and Tornado as the higher damage, enemies-have-to-step-into-it CC that you have to cancel and recast to trap a different area. The three remain distinct, and Tornado stands a potentially the largest area of effect, longest duration, or highest damage of the three depending on what you mod for (although difficult to get all three)

3 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

At that point it should in my opinion decide whether tornadoes should be a primary damage move or a primarily status based move

Again, not sure why it can't be both ^^ Okay, I see your point that it really should be one or the other, but the damage is dealt out per tick, one per second, so the status chance even right now is actually pretty high, because even just a 10% status will tick at least once over a ten second hold, and definitely at least twice over 30 seconds.

If you wanted a status type, then sure, have it absorb the second elemental type as well, and up the status to 20% per tick.

If you want damage, then include the IPS absorb and up the crit chance to 20% per tick.

Either way would work with the suggested method.

As for Funnel Clouds, having 12 (it's 8 additional, not 8 total) tiny funnels wandering the area, all seeking and damaging enemies, ones that now can't be shot through by our enemies either, what you could do with that is two-fold, first give the tiny funnels 50% extra damage and 50% extra 'on hit' multiplier, and second give funnels a stagger on touching an enemy, so up to twelve staggers before they get through the area of the cast. They might not stay on the enemy damaging them for the same amount of time as a big funnel, but there's more of them and they're doing more damage per impact with each target. Modding for strength on this version would be very, very rewarding, and imagine the extra damage that shooting each funnel would give.

It is time to make a decision about Tornado from the perspective of 'is it CC with some damage, or is it a damage ability that CCs' and if we agree on what we want, then pitching the idea to the rest of the community will be much easier.

I'm of the opinion that the basic range limit/AI fix I've been pitching would be a CC ability with some damage, which DE can then balance to see how much damage that becomes, based on their own internal balance of how much damage the ability should do compared to others.

So what about you?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Well here's the thing; they currently are.

I'm having a slightly different experience with my tornadoes as the hold time is rather arbitrary. I can seem to consistently get enemies trapped inside the move for any specific time despite the fact that I used 8 secs as a base in my previous statement. Its rather unclear however based on the amount of enemies I spawned to test my theory. The tornadoes could have easily thrown and picked up another enemies without me realizing.

Even during the enemies trapped time the damage is short of Nezha trying to hurt someone with firewalker.

(Simulacrum is horrible for Zephyr testing. Enemies released from tornado instantly get thrown off map or die in an out of bounds scenario. There really should be several different simulacrum rooms you can choose to test in but that's another discussion.)

I personally wouldn't even mind if enemies weren't suspended above the tornado after its small duration as long as a substantial effect was happening to them being damage or status with tangibility (otherwise the effect would wear off by the time you reached them after they are tossed unless corrosive proc is activated) during their trap time.

7 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Again, not sure why it can't be both

It can be, I was just afraid of potential power creep.

 

7 hours ago, Thaylien said:

As for Funnel Clouds, having 12

Thank you for clearing that up. My build has no space for the augment lol

 

7 hours ago, Thaylien said:

The range-limited roaming idea is so that there's a distinct difference between Tornado, Tentacle Swarm and Vortex, each one is a lift and hard CC on enemies, but Tornado is a more randomised and potentially far more damaging one, so you would have Vortex as a low-damage, high draw CC ability that can be cast multiple times in different locations, Tentacle Swarm as a medium damage, cast where you will instantly to pick up targets CC, but at the cost of losing the previous cast, and Tornado as the higher damage, enemies-have-to-step-into-it CC that you have to cancel and recast to trap a different area. The three remain distinct, and Tornado stands a potentially the largest area of effect, longest duration, or highest damage of the three depending on what you mod for (although difficult to get all three)

I was still hoping for the hold 4 for recall mechanic which would make the 4 tornadoes a single giant stationary turbulence at Zephyrs position for a team defensive move.

While it is dispersed I love your ideas limited forceful twister of terror.

Edited by (PS4)RenovaKunumaru
Clarification.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...