Birdframe_Prime Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 9 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said: I'm having a slightly different experience with my tornadoes as the hold time is rather arbitrary. I can seem to consistently get enemies trapped inside the move for any specific time despite the fact that I used 8 secs as a base in my previous statement. Hmm... It might be based off the overall duration of the ability, have you tried with a longer base to see if they get held for proportionally longer? On average with a duration build I see one enemy get held for about a ten count, then flung, so they might get flung sooner with a short duration. 9 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said: While it is dispersed I love your ideas limited forceful twister of terror. Ah! Ah-ah-ahhhhhh! But! Here's the thought; even with mine the range would have to be quite limited, otherwise mods couldn't make the range bigger. Yes it's dispersed, but the base range of movement (for rank 30) would be actually something close to 20m Radius, meaning that a funnel could cross the entire range quickly, like the average jogging speed of a grineer or corpus soldier (because they'd move faster) and that the max range build would then be able to hit the hard-cap of 50m radius that's on most every ability. If you were going for a long-duration build on her for Turbulence, as I often do, you'd actually get a slight negative range (maybe 90%?) and the ability would be no bigger than the average Interception node. Perfect for defense of entrances, pods, consoles and nodes, but not something that could overpower a tile or something that (as it can currently) keep going on into the map and seek down things that aren't even in the same tile as you. Hmmm... but your idea might actually be applicable here too... Tapping the button casts, but tapping again inside the range draws the funnels back to you quicker than they would normally travel as funnel shields from enemy fire? They wouldn't move until you did, moving returns them to enemy seek mode, but a tap can draw them back to you whenever you are in the ability range. Cancelling is then a hold of the button, not a tap. This would also be useful for movement, as you can make the tenno trampoline addition (I always like that one) and have your allies able to sit in a stationary funnel being bounced up and down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)RenovaKunumaru Posted September 11, 2016 Author Share Posted September 11, 2016 5 minutes ago, Thaylien said: Hmm... It might be based off the overall duration of the ability, have you tried with a longer base to see if they get held for proportionally longer? On average with a duration build I see one enemy get held for about a ten count, then flung, so they might get flung sooner with a short duration. Ah! Ah-ah-ahhhhhh! But! Here's the thought; even with mine the range would have to be quite limited, otherwise mods couldn't make the range bigger. Yes it's dispersed, but the base range of movement (for rank 30) would be actually something close to 20m Radius, meaning that a funnel could cross the entire range quickly, like the average jogging speed of a grineer or corpus soldier (because they'd move faster) and that the max range build would then be able to hit the hard-cap of 50m radius that's on most every ability. If you were going for a long-duration build on her for Turbulence, as I often do, you'd actually get a slight negative range (maybe 90%?) and the ability would be no bigger than the average Interception node. Perfect for defense of entrances, pods, consoles and nodes, but not something that could overpower a tile or something that (as it can currently) keep going on into the map and seek down things that aren't even in the same tile as you. Hmmm... but your idea might actually be applicable here too... Tapping the button casts, but tapping again inside the range draws the funnels back to you quicker than they would normally travel as funnel shields from enemy fire? They wouldn't move until you did, moving returns them to enemy seek mode, but a tap can draw them back to you whenever you are in the ability range. Cancelling is then a hold of the button, not a tap. This would also be useful for movement, as you can make the tenno trampoline addition (I always like that one) and have your allies able to sit in a stationary funnel being bounced up and down. In order to keep turbulence properly active it would require at least 50% range stat. Reducing that range stat to that stage is as simple as a narrow minded, which I would think is common on duration Zephyr builds. As a base 20m this would potentially limit tornadoes reach to around 10 meters in its traveling distance which is meh. A part of the reason I am pushing for a recall and disperse is because it allows you to micromanage the tornadoes position should they go too far from where you'd like them active without tying them to range. You've got to admit, unlimited range is pretty unique as it is now. With recall and disperse it would potentially eliminate the reason why we wanted Zephyrs Tornadoes to be cancellable or recastable in the 1st place. I personally wanted the move to be potentially cancellable because I couldn't reuse it at a different position that may have needed some CC if it was already active. After a certain point the tornadoes wander off pretty far from origin and perhaps off the map making me feel is if I only had 3 skills. If I can control their positioning with a bit of micromanagement, then I'd have no issue waiting out the duration. Even if you didn't want to use the tornadoes anymore you could position it using the stationary function at a location and let the duration run its course. Change your mind again? Casta and disperse once more. Just my take on the move though. Yours make just as equal sense. 22 minutes ago, Thaylien said: Hmm... It might be based off the overall duration of the ability, have you tried with a longer base to see if they get held for proportionally longer? On average with a duration build I see one enemy get held for about a ten count, then flung, so they might get flung sooner with a short duration. Just curious, because I'm a primary duration build, do you see enemies held in the intangible climbing state longer or the suspended state longer when hitting them with turbulence? I mostly get the enemies suspended, vulnerable from the top of the tornado as it bounces them and does minute damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdframe_Prime Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 1 hour ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said: As a base 20m Radius. That's 40m Diameter ^^ So the idea is that the seek is from the moment they cross the border of the ability, not from the funnels themselves as it is currently, while the suction is a radius from each funnel meaning that enemies can actually be drawn in from a few meters outside the ability range as long as a funnel is on the border. So the moment an enemy is inside, they're being targeted, and any funnel can pick them up. My current duration build puts a little range back in after Narrow Minded takes it out so I'm at 90% rather than the neutral 100%, so that would be an 18m radius and 36m diameter, the average size of an Interception point is 30m Diameter ^^ Since the max range of any ability is 50m Radius (the same as the Affinity range, even if the stats say further, DE hard-caps abilities there) a max range build on Zephyr (That's Overextended, Stretch and Cunning Drift) would be 250% range and thus 50m. You're right, with a recall it might negate the need for a cancel, but then again, with the speed increase to the funnels and the tracking being triggered by the ability range, not the funnel range, we might not need the recall. That said, to answer your other question, the idea behind the release from the funnels would be that they spend a set amount of time inside the funnel being damaged, climbing towards the top, and that after the duration they are released and the funnel does not support them, they have to touch the ground again before they can be picked up, but they don't necessarily have to recover from the ragdoll. This would mean that even under low ceilings the enemy is only held for that duration, falls back to the ground, and is then picked up by the next funnel for more CC and Damage. In open spaces, though, the funnels would release them with upward momentum, instead of outward, so that even though they aren't being damaged, they are still ragdolled and still in the area that the funnels patrol when they land. The fun would be that the upward launch is a predictable direction and anyone looking that way could shoot the enemy out of the sky like a clay pigeon. You see, my overall thought for the ability was that I didn't want it to be a solid wall shield that could be placed between you and the enemy at will, but that it would be very difficult for an enemy to go from point A to point B without encountering a funnel, being thrown in the air, coming down, trying to get up and walk again, being picked up by another funnel and so on. The wider the range of the cast, the less likely an enemy is to be initially caught, and the less likely he is to be picked up again and again, compared to a base range, but in those cases the funnels can seek and patrol in that larger area and likely pick up more enemies overall. On the other hand, a narrow range cast won't pick up as many since it patrols a smaller area, but anything caught in it is more certainly caught for the whole duration. It makes modding for Strength and Duration with neutral Range (to get the most damage out of Tornado and Dive Bomb, without losing the distance on Tailwind or the defense on Turbulence) just as viable as modding for Range and Duration with neutral Strength (getting the most out of Turbulence and the new knockdown on Tailwind and Dive Bomb without losing too much damage on Tornado). And averagely high modding on all four stats would then yield pretty good results overall. A fair one would be 170% Efficiency, 160% Duration, 157% Range and 130% Strength, that would be pretty badass on the new type of Zephyr we're designing. For 30 Energy you'd get a 32 second cast of Tornado that would cover a 60m circle of effect with funnels that deal 400 damage on pickup and 1560 damage over 10 seconds, launch the enemy, and do it again as soon as they hit the ground. That's 4k damage to enemies guaranteed over the course of that ability and likely more due to a third pickup that won't finish the full duration of damage, but will still add it. Easily on par with a high strength Avalanche, and a very hefty time of CC. If you were to add in the extra element, or the IPS damage, this would be very desirable ability. Not to mention you'd get a knockdown area on Tailwind of a good 3m radius (enough to knockdown anything in the same corridor as you), over 20m radius on a max-height Dive Bomb, and a 32 second Turbulence with a good positive range on its shielding. (For reference, the build for that is an Exilus plus four forma with a - Aura, two D polarities and a V. You have the aura of choice, say Energy Siphon, Vitality, Narrow Minded at rank 7, Primed Continuity maxed, Streamline maxed, Fleeting Expertise rank 3, Stretch maxed, Overextended rank 3, Transient Fortitude maxed, and a Power Drift. You can swap out the Power Drift for a Cunning Drift if you want more range and less power, or swap out the Transient for Intensify if you want more duration and a neutral strength. You don't need to have a lot of energy with her as the high efficiency will cover the majority, and especially not if you run Zenurik.) Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)RenovaKunumaru Posted September 12, 2016 Author Share Posted September 12, 2016 12 hours ago, Thaylien said: Radius. That's 40m Diameter ^^ So the idea is that the seek is from the moment they cross the border of the ability, not from the funnels themselves as it is currently, while the suction is a radius from each funnel meaning that enemies can actually be drawn in from a few meters outside the ability range as long as a funnel is on the border. So the moment an enemy is inside, they're being targeted, and any funnel can pick them up. My current duration build puts a little range back in after Narrow Minded takes it out so I'm at 90% rather than the neutral 100%, so that would be an 18m radius and 36m diameter, the average size of an Interception point is 30m Diameter ^^ Oh I get it. Had to read that a couple of times. So the point of origin has a range and the tornadoes pickup enemies has its on range as well. Interesting idea. Wouldn't you consider that a nerf however, now that you have to maintain a range stat? Granted, you could maintain at least 50% range and still have an unlimited distance, in its current form despite the fact that the pickup range would be more limited. Your technique ensures your tornadoes won't stray far from their master keeping a sense of control, but there is a sense of freedom in unlimited potential. Trading range for optimal control. V.S. Unlimited Range and Micromanagement You're slowly convincing me though, as having a manipulated range could make for a more controlled and predictable CC. My envision of the recall feature would be to have the active tornadoes dissipate and reappear on location (it is wind after all). With this method, who needs range when you can command the winds to regroup and disperse at your will? If they get too far away recall them into your single giant tornado that protects you and your team from projectiles and have at it. Cleared the position? Send your tornadoes back into the field while you still have some duration active. That's a good debate. I love these two ideas clashing. That's how things get done, with an exchange of ideas and perspectives. Its a shame this thread isn't getting the traction I had hoped for, considering that the ideas are among the most realistic approach I'd consider DE to accept, given their history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdframe_Prime Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 6 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said: So the point of origin has a range and the tornadoes pickup enemies has its on range as well Wouldn't you consider that a nerf however, now that you have to maintain a range stat? Actually no, I wouldn't actually say it's a nerf, because a negative range can be beneficial to it too, in theory. And I apologise if my descriptions weren't precise before, sometimes we forget that what seems obvious to us isn't obvious to others. To be clear, the casting range is one stat, which limits how far the funnels can travel from the point of casting, affected by mods, they spawn on enemies inside the casting range and seek them out as long as there are mobs within that range. When there are no enemies in range of the initial cast, they idle and move within it in random patterns. Each funnel, though, has an individual draw range, not affected by mods, of how close an enemy has to be to be captured. And so as soon as an enemy steps over the edge of the casting range the nearest funnel will target and seek that enemy, until it either leaves the range, or is captured. In practice, if a funnel happens to be on the edge of the ability and an enemy walks into its draw range without stepping over the edge of the casting range, they will be captured anyway. This means that on a wide range cast of +50% the funnels 'patrol' a large area and any enemy stepping into that area becomes a target, the nearest funnel to that enemy will seek it and capture it. All's fine and dandy, easy to understand and easy to use for protecting Defense pods, Mobile Defense points, Interception nodes and particularly useful as a cast for when you need to revive an ally, because even if they don't manage to spawn on all the enemies around, those enemies will all be captured pretty quickly. But a negative range cast, say -50%, will only have a very small range from the point of casting for the funnels to idle and move around inside, however the funnels' draw area will cover far more of the area within the cast by proportion. With a negative range, they are more closely packed and therefore will more likely instantly pick up anything that steps over the casting range, and will more likely be on the edge of the ability where they can draw enemies that are just outside it too. This one is even better for the emergency revive casts, as you are then surrounded by a closer formation of funnels that block damage, all enemies in range are likely to be CC'd immediately and it can still be placed at key points around the map to protect you from different directions of approach. It's a tactical application that can be used depending on your build. A wider range can CC a much larger area, but may be a few seconds before any enemy trying to cross the casting range is picked up and CC'd. A narrower range that's built for power, though, will be able to be placed in front of doorways, for example, and still be as effective, but will have the added benefit of more instant capture and CC of targets in range, dealing more damage, and more chance of the funnels themselves blocking incoming gunfire. In other words, if you wanted to make it a damage-centred build around Tailwind and Dive Bomb's knockdown, and Tornado's CC damage, you could just slap on a Narrow Minded for more duration and less range on each cast and go whole-hog on the power. But as I mentioned before, a build that ups all four stats averagely would also have great benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)RenovaKunumaru Posted September 12, 2016 Author Share Posted September 12, 2016 3 hours ago, Thaylien said: But a negative range cast, say -50%, will only have a very small range from the point of casting for the funnels to idle and move around inside, however the funnels' draw area will cover far more of the area within the cast by proportion. Is the draw range a fixed interval? If not we can assume that it would also be half as well. -50% Range of a base range of 40m diameter at level 30 with a draw range of (please fill in the blank for me I'm liking this) would offer a 20m diameter which is ok but... I guess... Perhaps I'm being a bit biased considering my range is around 50ish however I wouldn't be opposed to feedback from a 3rd party about these ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdframe_Prime Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 3 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said: Is the draw range a fixed interval? Yep, unaffected by mods (again, lost in the wall of text above ^^) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)RenovaKunumaru Posted September 13, 2016 Author Share Posted September 13, 2016 Do you think that the tornadoes should have a limited base range? I think going lower than a 10m radius would be silly, however its possible you may see the advantage in a low range build. A 5m radius of 4 tornadoes cast on a terminal for instance could be an absolute fortress lol. I'm going to update OP again soon with both of these tornado suggestions. Your method has covered all grounds with functionality and viability offering players creative choice in making their build 4 focused. Also I've been rereading this thread and this: On 9/9/2016 at 8:05 AM, Thaylien said: For reference, in this example the max any type can deal is 120, equal to the base damage, so in this case sticking two 90% mods on for Gas and one 90% mod on for Electric would mean that it deals the max damage of 120 Gas, but half damage in Electric so only 60. The IPS would add 120 IPS damage, and as it's 80% Slash, 10% Impact and 10% Puncture, you get 96/12/12 out of the total. So shooting it will at least double the base damage, making it nearly mandatory on each cast if you want to get the most out of it, if not more, but it wouldn't over-power it since the initial cast wouldn't actually change, and pure elemental weapons would only affect the base type, and maybe add in a second or third damage type. A Gammacore, for example, can have its base in Radiation, and then be modded for Corrosive and Blast, so would double the base damage by making the base ability 120 Corrosive (the highest on the list of damage types Tornado prefers), then add 60 Blast and 60 Radiation. Or the Paris can be modded purely for IPS (a crit build) and so would leave the base as 120 Magnetic, but would add 117 Puncture, 2 Slash and 1 Impact, and then add 45% to the Crit chance (the base crit of the weapon). A Tonkor, dealing both Puncture and Blast, modded for Viral and Radiation will actually triple the damage, changing the base to 120 Viral, adding 120 Puncture and adding 60 Radiation and 60 Blast, with an additional 35% crit chance! (Damn that weapon is good...) is so freaking good. I love it! Why didn't I comment more on this earlier? This idea is great. Crit absorbtion may be overkill, but the matching damage from physical and elemental is supreme. Perhaps we can convince DE to move the base to 200-250 range since the AI is out of our hands? Am I being greedy lol? How did you feel about the tailwind change? I gave a better description of it earlier but we lost a bit of focus on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)JCM_Unlimited Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 So from what I've gathered, your tailwind becomes like Ivara's Navigator basically right? Which I'm not saying is a bad thing but why not incorporate it completely and allow for more options. Tailwind becomes a toggle with all of the aforementioned aspects that you named however it's a tad bit slower at base and you can speed up or slow yourself down at will. Even tie in that the faster you go the more "evasion stacks" you get and the harder you become to hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LunarEdge7 Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 I'd definitely try her out if she were as fun as this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdframe_Prime Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 20 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said: Why didn't I comment more on this earlier? You started to, and we got side-tracked onto the reliability part. By the way, the point you raise about the minimum range is a fair one. I would say that the draw range of each funnel could actually be quite low, 5m radius, 10m diameter, would be plenty considering they would be moving faster and more actively seeking the enemies, it would also prevent too much 'bonus' coverage if a funnel was at the edge of the ability range. And a really, really narrow range cast (I think Narrow Minded does -66% range) would reduce the size of the casting area to... 6.8 radius, 13.6 diameter... so the funnels would be scraping the edge fairly often... the effective range of that cast, with the draw of the funnels, would then be 11.8 radius, 23.6 diameter. That is pretty narrow. And you're right, casting that on a pod or console would be quite the fortress. But then again, that's what Vortex does too... So where do we put the balance? I would agree a minimum range cap would be wise, just as you said, maybe keeping the minimum cast to 10m radius, 20 diameter would be best. The funnel draw would cover the target area very closely against melee units, but there's still a good chance that an enemy can shoot between the funnels for fairness. The funnels themselves, as game objects, are actually quite narrow, so the area of damage protection they offer would be fairly limited to being directly behind a funnel. So now that we've thrashed the reliability part of it to death, we can go on to the damage ^^ You're right, absorbing crit chance would be overkill I mean... serious overkill. But a second element, and adding IPS damage would be actually very powerful too. By the numbers I'm calculating... considerably OP. You noticed I ran some numbers in that post too; the base damage doesn't even need to be touched if the additional boost from the others was implemented. The newly reliable 10 ticks of base damage with double base damage on the initial capture would deliver a very reliable stream of damage to the target, especially if they're being picked up multiple times thanks to the reliable release mechanic. If we were to say that the neutral strength damage was 120, with a 2x multiplier on the capture, you're already dealing the optimum numbers that Tornado currently does (that's 1.4k damage per funnel), and potentially dealing that three times over the course of the ability thanks to multiple pick-ups. This puts it on par with a lot of the comparable cc/damage 3 and 4 casts in game. However, if shooting a funnel then absorbs the element and the IPS damage, up to a cap, (hey, for fun, how about if there is no second element on the weapon, Magnetic becomes the second element, meaning that shooting a funnel with any weapon will always add at least 50% more damage onto the funnel) then this becomes immediately better damage and better chance of more procs. The key is to keep the actual damage boost to no more than 250%, otherwise the new Tornado has the easy potential to be one of the most damaging cc casts in the game. Remember that Stomp does a max damage of under 3k, and most other 4 abilities like this cap out at a little over 5k. So adding a second element, at base, would add 60 elemental, and adding IPS would add 120 in the same balance as the weapon's base damage (for example 80% Slash, 10% Puncture and 10% Impact) 10 ticks of 300 damage, with a capture tick of 600, becomes 3.6k damage per funnel, able to be dealt up to 3 times over the course of a cast. That's over 10k at base. As enthusiastic as I am to boost the damage, even a moderate strength build of +30% would be pretty insane, since it doesn't just boost the base damage, it boosts the on-capture multiplier. +30%, for reference, would change the base damage to 156 per tick, and the on-capture to 405, meaning per funnel that's dealing 1.96k, three times to 5.9k, and you've equalled Miasma's max strength/duration damage. Adding the extra element and IPS damage the funnels now deal 4.9k each, and if picked up three times, that's 14.7k, which is equal to the bleed damage that a maxed Bladestorm deals (BS still does 7k per attack to cause this bleed damage, but that's why he's overpowered). If we put the highest strength build on her that would still have viability with her other abilities... scary numbers appear. I make a high power build as an Exilus and four Forma, - Aura, a Ds and three Vs. Energy Siphon, maxed Vitality, Primed Flow, Primed Continuity, Constitution, Transient Fortitude, Intensify and Power Drift, with a rank 7 Blind Rage and a rank 3 Fleeting Expertise. This gives us a working build of neutral Efficiency, neutral Range, +15.5% Duration and +172% Strength. This gives us only 23 seconds on Tornado (and Turbulence, a little short, but do-able), so a maximum of 2 funnels can pick up an enemy. Let's go with that. The base damage on a funnel is then 326.4 per tick, the on-capture damage is 1,775.6, or 1.77k. On capture. So base damage at this working max strength is 5k per funnel. So each cast of Tornado, if cast on top of an enemy, will pick up that enemy twice, and deal 10k damage in 23 seconds to targets that are hard-cc'd for that duration. Let's add the IPS and a second Element to it, making that and extra 326.4 in IPS per tick, and an extra 163.2 Elemental. 250% damage overall. Means each funnel is dealing 12.6k damage. Twice over an ability is 25.2k... and all this while you could be proc'ing bleed, viral, corrosive, fire... any element and IPS proc of your choice. That's... that's understandably insane. To be honest, running these numbers, I actually feel that, at most, adding a second element at 50% extra damage is more than enough for our newly reliable Tornado to do. 28 minutes ago, (PS4)JCM_Unlimited said: So from what I've gathered, your tailwind becomes like Ivara's Navigator basically right? And this brings me neatly on to the Tailwind point. Not precisely, no, the idea is that a normal cast of Tailwind would jet forward for the normal amount of time. However holding the button down would extend the duration at extra cost, to go further in a straight line in case you're in one of the very long tiles. My idea was to put a very slight follow-the-cursor on it, so that the aiming can be adjusted, but not fully guided like Navigator. More of a slight curve than actual steering. Actually, I wanted to do this whether the ability was extendable or not. As to that, Renova, I don't see why this wouldn't work, most casual Zephyr users only use Tailwind when they need to go fast over distance, and having it able to travel further (with energy cost) than a Nova's Wormhole, but not as fast over the same distance would be a good balance for a movement ability. And having it cost more than Volt's Speed would keep that side of things balanced too. But more serious Zephyr players will like the flexibility of being able to choose either the short or the extended cast to get where they need to go. Also your idea of having impacts to enemies count toward the melee counter (along with Dive Bomb's scaling with melee mods) would definitely impress the melee crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)RenovaKunumaru Posted September 13, 2016 Author Share Posted September 13, 2016 45 minutes ago, (PS4)JCM_Unlimited said: So from what I've gathered, your tailwind becomes like Ivara's Navigator basically right? Which I'm not saying is a bad thing but why not incorporate it completely and allow for more options. Tailwind becomes a toggle with all of the aforementioned aspects that you named however it's a tad bit slower at base and you can speed up or slow yourself down at will. Even tie in that the faster you go the more "evasion stacks" you get and the harder you become to hit. Perfect analogy for Tailwind comparing it to Navigator, however the move is still used in 3rd person. Making Tailwind a full toggle ability would stray away from keeping its base performance which is what I wanted to stray away from. I still want people who like tailwind as it currently stands to be able to press 1 while grounded to launch up and press 1 while airborne to fly into that direction without toggle. If you'd like to incorporate hold 1 one to activate toggle so that you don't have to keep holding the button to fly in tailwind, then I'm all for that. Not a big deal at all. I'm not sure how I feel about the ability to slow yourself down and speed up though. I feel like there is a reward in mastering the movement system. In my opinion, that's a lot of what Zephyr is about. From her tailwind to her passive, Zephyr has never been an easy character to maneuver initially, but I find it highly rewarding. As for evasion stacks, Zephyr is pretty evasive as is. I don't think I've ever been shot out of Tailwind and she cannot be knocked down out of it. There are also mods like aviator and agility drift that she can take advantage of for evasiveness. We also have to remember that When you reach a certain height most enemies don't even target you anymore. You are your own evasive tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)RenovaKunumaru Posted September 13, 2016 Author Share Posted September 13, 2016 9 minutes ago, Thaylien said: -snip- Tornado just needs to guarantee that enemies picked up are subjected to the same amount of damage time. Also, I'd like to see a bit of a status chance increase to ensure we can fight against armored units. The damage is useless for instance vs Grineer if the status chance procs at the last 2 seconds of the ticks in which the majority of the damage was absorbed through armor. 11 minutes ago, Thaylien said: Not precisely, no This is where I disagree. I see Zephyr being able to alter her tailwind direction completely when the hold mechanic kicks in as a worthy feature. This may add a new style to her as a flying frame but does not infringe on Titania at all. Titania is a helicopter and Zephyr is a Jet. Its not as if Zephyr is immune to damage, nor would she be dishing out a huge amount of damage to enemies in this state. It falls into the 1 category of minimal damage just like everyone else powers. It does not scale from melee mods but does add to the melee counter. The original features of launch and dash remain while the frame now gains a new technique that gives her the freedom to swoop down from he sky and attack targets like a bird. I believe you suggested a skill like that in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Host-Migration Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 (edited) I like these new ideas for a rework.Currently, I mainly use Turbulence and Tailwind for movement. Divebomb and Tornado are more panic buttons for me; hopefully with a rework those skills will have more practical applications. Edited September 13, 2016 by Host-Migration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)JCM_Unlimited Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 4 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said: Making Tailwind a full toggle ability would stray away from keeping its base performance which is what I wanted to stray away from. I still want people who like tailwind as it currently stands to be able to press 1 while grounded to launch up and press 1 while airborne to fly into that direction without toggle. If you'd like to incorporate hold 1 one to activate toggle so that you don't have to keep holding the button to fly in tailwind, then I'm all for that. Not a big deal at all. I'm not sure how I feel about the ability to slow yourself down and speed up though. I feel like there is a reward in mastering the movement system. In my opinion, that's a lot of what Zephyr is about. From her tailwind to her passive, Zephyr has never been an easy character to maneuver initially, but I find it highly rewarding. I can agree with the idea to keep it as a tap, and then hold if you want it to be toggled. It seems like it would be a pretty smooth transition. As for the slowing down and speeding up it wouldn't necessarily be a drastic speed difference in either case but more so a better sense of control so that if you find yourself going too fast and incapable of banking a hard turn down a hall; you can throttle down and take the corner easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)RenovaKunumaru Posted September 13, 2016 Author Share Posted September 13, 2016 2 hours ago, (PS4)JCM_Unlimited said: I can agree with the idea to keep it as a tap, and then hold if you want it to be toggled. It seems like it would be a pretty smooth transition. As for the slowing down and speeding up it wouldn't necessarily be a drastic speed difference in either case but more so a better sense of control so that if you find yourself going too fast and incapable of banking a hard turn down a hall; you can throttle down and take the corner easier. The objective for the reworked tailwind is to give Zephyr greater freedom in maps tilesets that she already has the space and capability to express it. Slowing her down and speeding her up at will doesn't just look funny, but it encourages people to try to tailwind in locations that don't relatively make sense in its form factor. Players should not be attempting to tailwind through narrow pathways that have turns. That changes the move from an extension to express speed and flight in a wide setting to having Zephyr perform something like this slowing herself down for better control. Knowing where and when to cast the move is essential to its mastery. Sometimes its better to just cast a single tailwind down a hall of enemies than to attempt to tailwind through them and turn the corner in the same momentum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdframe_Prime Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 23 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said: The original features of launch and dash remain while the frame now gains a new technique that gives her the freedom to swoop down from he sky and attack targets like a bird. I believe you suggested a skill like that in the past. Again, not precisely. The steering function of Navigator is something I decided against a long time ago, the ability you're thinking of is something I was given by another that would replace Dive Bomb that functioned by selecting a target, tapping the ability, and would dive on the target, snatch it up, and return to previous height to drop them to the ground (a bird's dive bomb is a swoop, attack and rise). The issue I have with a steer-able Tailwind is that the ability is fast. As in, it's a dash ability, not a targeting ability or a sustained aerial movement ability. I have always seen it as an aerial take on Slash Dash, where if you aren't targeting something when casting, it will simply dash in the direction of the cursor. My idea for steering came from the fact that she can steer in air normally, but has a broad turning circle; applying the same amount of steering to Tailwind would mean that you could aim for a door and curve a little to go through it if you weren't precise at distance, but that even the longest of Tailwinds would only allow a deviance from the original direction of about 15º. That's what I've been pushing for, because it would apply her existing in-air control to the faster movement, and be consistent across her aerial abilities. I support your idea for extending Tailwind with a hold, but not the idea of Navigator-esque control of it because the velocity of Tailwind would not allow total control like that. You said yourself that slowing down and speeding up would encourage people to use it in places it wasn't appropriate, and that keeping the speed high would allow people to master it by using the tap correctly and the hold correctly, but I believe that virtually any tile would be inappropriate. The speed and momentum of Tailwind is very, very high, and trying to steer and target at any point where you don't have insane amounts of space (like the Corpus Hangar, the largest Earth tiles and so on) would only ever result in hitting walls rather than targets. When you suggested the hold-to-extend I pictured being able to cross the Corpus Hangar from end to end in around 5 seconds, but to do so you would be deliberately ignoring the enemies, like you do with Nova's Wormhole, and as you do with a regular Tailwind. The steering I proposed would be enough for a player to aim for the far end and course-correct enough to land near or in the doorway at the far end, but not enough to dive on any enemies along the way. Putting full steering on Tailwind would basically only allow you something in the region of a 50m turning circle due to speed and momentum, approximately equal to circling the central point of that defense map on Earth just above the walls (which you can't do, I know, it sets you on fire if you hide up there). Unless you were to slow down Tailwind the moment you triggered the hold-to-extend function, that is. Quite apart from that, having the reaction time to target a specific enemy or even group of enemies would be an extremely limiting factor at that speed. I quite honestly believe that a little steering on Tailwind is good, but a full Navigator style just doesn't fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)RenovaKunumaru Posted September 14, 2016 Author Share Posted September 14, 2016 15 minutes ago, Thaylien said: Again, not precisely. The steering function of Navigator is something I decided against a long time ago, the ability you're thinking of is something I was given by another that would replace Dive Bomb that functioned by selecting a target, tapping the ability, and would dive on the target, snatch it up, and return to previous height to drop them to the ground (a bird's dive bomb is a swoop, attack and rise). The issue I have with a steer-able Tailwind is that the ability is fast. As in, it's a dash ability, not a targeting ability or a sustained aerial movement ability. I have always seen it as an aerial take on Slash Dash, where if you aren't targeting something when casting, it will simply dash in the direction of the cursor. My idea for steering came from the fact that she can steer in air normally, but has a broad turning circle; applying the same amount of steering to Tailwind would mean that you could aim for a door and curve a little to go through it if you weren't precise at distance, but that even the longest of Tailwinds would only allow a deviance from the original direction of about 15º. That's what I've been pushing for, because it would apply her existing in-air control to the faster movement, and be consistent across her aerial abilities. I support your idea for extending Tailwind with a hold, but not the idea of Navigator-esque control of it because the velocity of Tailwind would not allow total control like that. You said yourself that slowing down and speeding up would encourage people to use it in places it wasn't appropriate, and that keeping the speed high would allow people to master it by using the tap correctly and the hold correctly, but I believe that virtually any tile would be inappropriate. The speed and momentum of Tailwind is very, very high, and trying to steer and target at any point where you don't have insane amounts of space (like the Corpus Hangar, the largest Earth tiles and so on) would only ever result in hitting walls rather than targets. When you suggested the hold-to-extend I pictured being able to cross the Corpus Hangar from end to end in around 5 seconds, but to do so you would be deliberately ignoring the enemies, like you do with Nova's Wormhole, and as you do with a regular Tailwind. The steering I proposed would be enough for a player to aim for the far end and course-correct enough to land near or in the doorway at the far end, but not enough to dive on any enemies along the way. Putting full steering on Tailwind would basically only allow you something in the region of a 50m turning circle due to speed and momentum, approximately equal to circling the central point of that defense map on Earth just above the walls (which you can't do, I know, it sets you on fire if you hide up there). Unless you were to slow down Tailwind the moment you triggered the hold-to-extend function, that is. Quite apart from that, having the reaction time to target a specific enemy or even group of enemies would be an extremely limiting factor at that speed. I quite honestly believe that a little steering on Tailwind is good, but a full Navigator style just doesn't fit. On mobile so I can't clean up my post. That's exactly what I want the technique available for. Those big maps where this would be w applicable is what this is targeted for. While that may be far and few the additional technique would not hurt the frame but enhance her niche in aerial superiority. The speed is extremely high and while the technique doesn't need to reflect the pure maximum velocity that tailwind performs, I would not like it to be slow enough where the planking footage I've provided. The purpose of the option would be to enhance the functionality Zephyr has when she has the space available. If people want to attempt to fly indoors with low ceilings and such, it cannot be helped. They can play the game in whatever fashion they choose. However, this technique isn't made to appease those actions therefore the controlling of the tailwind speed is what I'm opposed to. Even with this added bonus functionality it would not stop Zephyr from being played in her current strategies and allow you to have the extended tailwind you imagined my idea originally to be. The knockdown would still happen from taps and/or holds as well as the melee combo multiplier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdframe_Prime Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 5 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said: That's exactly what I want the technique available for. Those big maps where this would be applicable is what this is targeted for. I did guess, but I still think it won't be applicable because the turning will be so pushed out by momentum it would be more luck than skill to hit anything with it. Extending it in a straight line, with some mild steering, would allow you to cross these big tiles, or stop where you needed to to attack enemies, and it would be that optional boost that the ability needs to set it apart from Bullet Jump. But even if you give it full steering, I don't think it will be capable of what you believe. I think you're going to see the same trouble steering Tailwind as you do the new Archwing system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)RenovaKunumaru Posted September 14, 2016 Author Share Posted September 14, 2016 8 minutes ago, Thaylien said: I did guess, but I still think it won't be applicable because the turning will be so pushed out by momentum it would be more luck than skill to hit anything with it. Extending it in a straight line, with some mild steering, would allow you to cross these big tiles, or stop where you needed to to attack enemies, and it would be that optional boost that the ability needs to set it apart from Bullet Jump. But even if you give it full steering, I don't think it will be capable of what you believe. I think you're going to see the same trouble steering Tailwind as you do the new Archwing system. That's a fair assumption, however I believe the difference would be similar to Titania (finally got her. Love her) and the current archwing movements. It's the unlimited movement that allows you to travel upside down and sideways that I believe less to the sheer hatred done on the country has towards this system while the titania flight model prohibits those. There's definitely a delicate balance when showing degree of control to be fine tuned to each flight model including one that Zephyr may emulate at high speed but I'd like to have faith it's possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azamagon Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 Just wanted to chime in here and, hopefully, contribute to the discussion. First, I really like your upgrades for Tailwind and Divebomb. The melee comboing and melee power (respectively) sounds like a really neat synergy. I also like the idea of having a hold-option for making Tailwind more continuous in a smoother way. I'd also further like to discuss about Tailwind's mechanics (as you and Thaylien has discussed a lot about its mobility already). So this is more like brainstorming on my end: Version 1: OP's version with tap for a quick "dash", hold for more continuous flight. Wether it is a "slowturning" or fully unhindered controlled one (a la Navigator), doesn't matter to me, personally. I like this version for being less radical, staying more "true" to its current form, causing older Zephyr-users to be less annoyed by the additions (as it only gets ADDITIONS), while still adding a whole lot of fun to it with the continuous flight. Also, with OP's proposed combo mechanics of it fueling the melee counter and then differentiating Divebomb further by making it a powerful melee-fueled move, it is a rather smooth and well proposed change. Version 2: Now TW is a toggle, causing her to continuously be propelled forward. Either has slow turning, or full unhindered control (a la Navigator, M1 and M2 even being able to slow her down or speed her up seems fine). Pressing melee in midflight causes her to uninterruptedly dive straight down (a la current Divebomb, merging the 2 abilities somewhat smoothly!). Whenever she collides in the environment in any manner while the ability is still toggled on, she causes a shockwave (a la current Divebomb), which knocks down and deals impact-damage to all enemies in the AoE. Current Divebomb augment is then the Tailwind augment. I like this version for giving more grace and fluidity to the ability + being able to merge Divebomb without making it in a clunky hold/tap fashion. However, it is far more radical too. Can still be used in the old way though (doubleclicking 1 would just do a quick air dash, like now) Alternative way to deal Tailwind's "contact" damage (Regardless of version 1 or 2, but probably fits better with either of them in the slowturning state, due to the lesser mobility reducing graphical overloading possibilities): As Zephyr flies, rather than her contacting enemies hurting them, she instead just passes through enemies freely but leaves big slashing winds in her wake. These winds slow enemies down and deal continuous slash damage (and procs?). This makes TW more of a mobility + utility move. A futher reason why I propose this alternative way of how TW deals it damage: Tornado - What if any physical damage done towards a Tornado, on top of dealing its damage to its target(s) you might've struck by whatever attack you are doing, now ALSO further splits all the physical damage among all the targets caught in a Tornado? This means, the slashing winds of TW are now gonna hurt, a LOT, to enemies in a Tornado (as they are likely to both be hurt by the winds directly AND then suffer the splitbonus as well!). This gives you a reason to actually TW through a Tornado, giving them better synergy. As for Tornado, I dunno how I'd like it to function overall. But there are a couple of things I'd like from it: 1) Make them unsummonable with a recast 2) Either make it a powerful damage move (elemental changing + adding the physical split would help a bit in that direction), thus enemies spinning around in a ragdolled fashion and/or being flung out randomly would be ok, to me (cuz while their stay in the Tornado is brief / making them hard to target, the damage it does, along with your unprecise shooting at it is still going to do lots of damage to all enemies caught in it, would more than make up for its unreliability). -OR- Make enemies stay, reliably, in the Tornado, with less spinning around and no random flinging, so it functions as a more reliable CC move, moreso than being improved as a damage-amper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdframe_Prime Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 Thanks for joining us @Azamagon, always nice to see a new face in these. So, let's see... First off, thanks for the input, but second off I'll address some of your points because we've talked them over before on a few threads. 11 hours ago, Azamagon said: Version 2: Now TW is a toggle The toggle TW is often suggested, and the issue is that it's a drain ability on a frame that has a very limited energy pool. When it's a choice of spending the base 25 energy and then extending it voluntarily at the cost of more, that's a tactical choice, but a toggle has a base cost that then drains per second from the outset. Quite often this will result in more energy draw overall. Besides that, it would mean giving Tailwind an active de-toggle that would negate any tie-in with the parkour system, as we were talking about earlier on. Not a complete argument to not make it a toggle, but two good reasons ^^ 12 hours ago, Azamagon said: Pressing melee in midflight causes her to uninterruptedly dive straight down (a la current Divebomb, merging the 2 abilities somewhat smoothly!). This one Renova has converted me from. I was a big proponent of the combination of Tailwind and Dive Bomb, mechanically. My version was even simpler; you look down and a target appears on the ground when you're looking vertically downwards, signalling visually that this is a Dive Bomb target, pressing 1 then triggers Dive Bomb instead of Tailwind. I always used to say 'bonus points for a Lotus symbol for Zephyr Prime', but I'm quickly coming to see that DE is unlikely to do this when buffing her abilities as they are is a far easier and more plausible outcome. If you look back, in here I think you'll find where we discuss a buff and addition to Dive Bomb that would make it far more applicable; the short version is that buffing the base range and scaling of Dive Bomb, and then applying the effect better by guaranteeing knock-downs on anything that isn't a boss (interrupting enemy animations to do so, which is one of the key problems with her right now), ragdolls if you go from a 'maxed' height, and importantly by extending the effect through the nav-mesh so that it's not just a flat circle of effect, it allows it to hit things that are a short distance up or down slopes/stairs too. Another buff would be to allow the height to also affect the range, so if you were on a high ceiling map like Stoffler, you could actually make the Bomb reach the max-radius cap of 50m (all radial abilities have a max range cap of 50m, even if the modding tells you it goes larger, helps to know so that you don't mod for excessive range and not see any better results.) The addition is a ground-based attack, able to be cast without gaining height. Tapping the button does a short area cone of effect in front of her, holding the button can charge it up (charging, to mimic the height gain needed to do more damage on the main version of Dive Bomb) to have more range and better knock-down. The draw-back to this ability is that you are stationary during the charge, so any melee units can walk right up to you, and your Turbulence may run out at a bad time too. We're harking this back to the original concept thread of Zephyr that was accepted as a new frame, where the original guy had the concept of Zephyr doing a kicking animation, possibly flipping over backwards, to launch a wave of air. And this would make Dive Bomb dual purpose, and a tactical choice between a radial blast and a cone of effect based on what group of enemies you're dealing with, while also giving you an application for the ability when you're in one of the low-ceiling tile sets. 13 hours ago, Azamagon said: Alternative way to deal Tailwind's "contact" damage This one we also got to, the option I like is that it ragdolls those in range of her damage. So if they're close enough to be damaged by Tailwind, they also get blown away by it. This makes it applicable in small corridors, where she suffers terribly, she can basically blast enemies away like Rhino's Charge, but without dealing as much damage as the bigger frame. Your idea for a slow is also good, but if you're running through a mission leading a group of players (because, let's face it, anything that's not a high-speed Volt or a Wormhole spamming Nova is going to be behind you), then leaving a group of ragdolled enemies in your wake is going to open all of those enemies up to melee finishers, or just a passing shotgun to the face, as your allies breeze on by too. Somebody once said that what they'd like to see is enemies being uniquely cc'd by her; damaging with Tailwind spins enemies around several times, forcing them to stop and re-target a player as well as the soft cc, with a small chance to proc confusion if DE thinks it could be applicable. That would be particularly amusing ^^ 13 hours ago, Azamagon said: As for Tornado This is what Renova and I were thrashing out most recently. My plan here was to have it always be a reliable CC ability, so that the process would be: Cast a radius, funnels form and move around in that radius, any enemy that steps into the radius is immediately a target for seeking and the funnels have had movement speed and pathing improved to hunt down those enemies and capture them. The funnels have a fixed range of capture, meaning that mods can't make it smaller, and that even if the enemies are technically outside the range of the ability cast (and thus not targeted) the funnels will still capture an enemy if that enemy happens to wander into range of a funnel. The function of a funnel would then change a little, so it captures an enemy, holds it for ten seconds and then releases it with upward momentum. What this does is ensure that a fixed amount of damage is dealt to the enemy (so DE can balance how much damage that is) and that an enemy can't be held pressed against the ceiling in a low room, can't be just 'juggled' on top of the funnels suffering low damage, and will always fall back into the range of the ability so another funnel can chase down and capture that enemy for additional damage. The point being that any enemy in range of the ability at cast will stay CC'd for the entire cast, and enemies that walk in range of it become CC'd quickly and will remain so until the end of the ability. You see, with that reliable nature of CC, and a fixed damage per funnel, we can then adjust whether the funnels can, or even should, do extra damage. I ran the numbers for it, and found something kind of important; if we were to keep the same numbers as now, and fix the duration of the hold at 10 seconds, Tornado could potentially do a hell of a lot of damage already. This means that if we wanted to actually buff the damage, we wouldn't even need to do it by much. My idea was this: if you shoot a funnel it gains the elemental type of your weapon as the base damage, if you have two elements on your weapon, the funnels gain the second type too at half strength, however if you only have one element on your weapon, the magnetic damage of the funnel remains but at half strength. So shooting a funnel adds 50% base damage, and gains a secondary element type; An example would be that a Corrosive/Fire modded weapon would then change the base damage to Corrosive, and then add Fire damage at 50% strength. (The Wiki has a list of what elements are preferred on Tornado, and what will become the main type of damage if you have two, so DE don't have to change much here.) With Tornado's already pretty decent chance to proc an elemental type, this could be very powerful, especially if you have a Viral/Fire build. Basically what I'm saying is that by making this a reliable CC ability, the damage is automatically going to increase because it will be applied as consistently as the CC. Adding in the secondary Elemental effect to give the ability +50% damage will do amazing amounts of extra on a build that has reasonable Power Strength, even just +30% Strength will put this on par with almost every other caster's 4 in the game. And, of course, with this version we'd definitely have an active dispel, as you suggested. 13 hours ago, Azamagon said: This gives you a reason to actually TW through a Tornado Actually, this I kind of like. We can't shoot through the funnels, but being able to cast an ability that damages things inside them would add a fair bit of synergy. If it were applied to the ability as I would change the ability to be, then I think I would suggest a slight change: Tailwind through a tornado funnel will deal double Tailwind's damage to every enemy inside that funnel. Just as Tailwind damage, not boosting Tornado's damage, and here's why: It doesn't sound like much, but when you consider the consistent damage ticks from the main funnels, this can add quite a bit. Tailwind's Dash damage, at rank 30 with neutral strength, does 250 slash damage, if this is doubled by passing by a funnel that's already pretty good as a 1 ability that can hit multiple targets. Combine that with Tornado doing 120 damage per tick, or possibly 180 total with a second type, this would mean that one funnel can deal over 2k damage on it's own, two Tailwinds through it will add 1k damage on top of that. For reference, Stomp maxes out at 2392 Blast damage, so being able to do that per funnel is actually very strong for a CC ability. Vortex, when maxed for Strength, can barely top 1k damage, and Tentacle Swarm maxed for Strength can deal around 6k (but that's actually Finisher damage, so TS is actually one of the highest damage CC abilities overall...), but if Zephyr with a neutral strength build can deal 2.5k per funnel, proc'ing elemental effects like viral frequently, then it holds up remarkably well because an enemy could be captured and held up to three times on most high-duration builds, tripling her damage. Heh, adding 30% strength on with an Intensify would actually then mean that Tornado could potentially out-damage Avalanche, Crush Reckoning, Miasma... Everything except Bladestorm. So Tailwind through Tornado dealing double damage to everything it hits? It doesn't need to be much higher, it adds to the damage total of a newly consistent ability, and how many times can you cast Tailwind through Tornado over the duration of 30 seconds? A lot, is the answer. You could add thousands of damage per enemy on top of the damage they suffer from Tornado itself. So, I like it. That's a really good suggestion ^^ What do you think Renova? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)RenovaKunumaru Posted September 15, 2016 Author Share Posted September 15, 2016 (edited) 16 hours ago, Azamagon said: I like this version for being less radical, staying more "true" to its current form, causing older Zephyr-users to be less annoyed by the additions (as it only gets ADDITIONS), while still adding a whole lot of fun to it with the continuous flight. Also, with OP's proposed combo mechanics of it fueling the melee counter and then differentiating Divebomb further by making it a powerful melee-fueled move, it is a rather smooth and well proposed change. I'm more aligned with the 1st idea rather than the second one. With Zephyr having the hold mechanic she offers her services to the crowd who wants a tailwind toggle. With tapping she maintains her current tailwind for, in which players like me enjoy for the sake of Zenurik. 16 hours ago, Azamagon said: A futher reason why I propose this alternative way of how TW deals it damage: I'm treading carefully with the tailwind buffs to ensure Zephyr's 1 stays in line with the other 1's in the game. Slash procs, guaranteed knockdown, melee combo counter all sounds great but I think we as a community should compromise which of these she should get or even if everyone feels its justifiable having all of these. I'm torn however. Would that be too good? I'm not sure even though I like the prospect. 16 hours ago, Azamagon said: What if any physical damage done towards a Tornado, on top of dealing its damage to its target(s) you might've struck by whatever attack you are doing, now ALSO further splits all the physical damage among all the targets caught in a Tornado? I think this would perhaps work well however can we fine tune it to only physical skills can damage enemies inside tornado. That way we aren't ripping off the other abilities like vortex. @Thaylien proposed an idea in which the tornadoes hold the enemies in a guaranteed time (10 secs or so) in which they will suffer Zephyrs base damage from her tornado in the form of her weapon element. Zephyrs tornado normally does 120 magnetic damage. From my understanding, if you are to shoot it with a corrosive weapon with the new proposed rework, it becomes 120 corrosive damage. Any additional elements such as fire as explained in the previous post are then added with 50% effectiveness granting 60 heat damage. I do think its safe to offer the additional damage types the full 100% effectiveness though as with armor, the damage can become quite shameful. I do think that the status proc should also be reevaluated as 120 corrosive damage does so very little if the corrosive proc doesn't occur within the 1st 9 secs of the enemy being trapped. Its possible. I'm still finding it hard to see the damage being worthwhile considering when I use the skill now it isn't very effective and currently already offers a portion of the rework suggested to it. It already does 120 damage and it sucks. I'm hoping that the guaranteed trapping of the enemies to ensure the skill does a certain amount of damage and a high status chance will change this. Btw, you've convinced me. I like your tornado idea better than my own. With a limited range the AI can be forced to be aggreesive with targets that enter its range rather than its range being the entire map and the tornadoes have to decide who to go after. 2 hours ago, Thaylien said: Somebody once said that what they'd like to see is enemies being uniquely cc'd by her; damaging with Tailwind spins enemies around several times, forcing them to stop and re-target a player as well as the soft cc, with a small chance to proc confusion if DE thinks it could be applicable. That would be particularly amusing ^^ That would be hilarious. Edited September 15, 2016 by (PS4)RenovaKunumaru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdframe_Prime Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 1 hour ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said: From my understanding, if you are to shoot it with a corrosive weapon with the new proposed rework, it becomes 120 corrosive damage. This is how Tornado currently works, the main element you have on the gun is what the elemental damage becomes used by the funnel. The wiki for Zephyr says that Magnetic is the base and any other element will replace it, in fact any element will replace any element, but there's a hierarchy that it prefers if your gun has two elements, with Corrosive at the top of that list. The actual ranking is, from lowest to highest, like this: Heat, Cold, Electric, Toxin, Blast, Radiation, Gas, Magnetic, Viral and Corrosive. So currently if you have a gun modded for Corrosive and Blast, the funnel will become a Corrosive funnel, but if you have a gun modded for Gas and Heat, the funnel will become a Gas funnel, even though Heat damage might be more desirable at the time. That's where I got my idea from; the funnel changes the main damage type to the highest ranked element on your gun, but as a bonus the funnel will always gain a secondary element at 50% damage. If you only have one element on your gun, for example Heat, then the main damage becomes heat, and the base Magnetic damage becomes the 50% second element. If you have two elements on your gun, like Heat and Viral, then the funnel becomes Viral with a bonus 50% Heat damage on it. This way, until you shoot the funnels, they only deal their base damage modified by power Strength as Magnetic elemental damage, leaving the ability quite weak against a lot of enemies, however shooting the funnels not only changes the elemental type to the same as your gun, but it always, even if you only have one elemental type, will gain 50% bonus damage. The only time it won't is if you don't have elemental damage on your gun, but then why would you be shooting your funnels with a non-element-modded gun in the first place? My point, though, is that with a reliable Tornado, the CC will always be there, so we can do with the damage what we will. With a reliable Tornado DE can decide whether to include damage boosts or a second Elemental type, any of that. But I'd just be happy with being able to cast the winds and have them be exactly where I want them, doing their job, until the timer ends or I say to stop. 1 hour ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said: I'm treading carefully with the tailwind buffs to ensure Zephyr's 1 stays in line with the other 1's in the game. Slash procs, guaranteed knockdown, melee combo counter all sounds great Absolutely right to be careful. So many people see Tailwind as either a pure movement cast and think damage is unnecessary (although sometimes helpful), or something that needs to be changed so it deals damage, so I'm very cautious about adding damage. Utility, however, that's a good addition to any cast. Which is why I'm glad you like the spin-around CC animation, I think adding that would be exactly what the ability needs. Tailwind would then be able to get you out of trouble or through narrow corridors full of enemies, since it doesn't 'collide' with enemies, and it would also have a unique animation on 'contact' with enemies that would make it actually fun to cast at low altitude through the crowds. Even just adding that function into the ability would be a huge bonus to anyone playing Zephyr, but I do think that adding the extended option, with the hold, would be a very good addition. We may just have to agree-to-disagree about how much steering is able to be applied, but the initial concept would work, I'm absolutely certain it would. On the other hand, did you read the bit about Tailwind dealing bonus damage to enemies inside Tornado funnels? That's genius. I wouldn't over-play it (personally I would have it be a straight 2x multiplier to Tailwind's damage) but having a reward for casting both abilities together can only improve her overall. Little synergies, individually not much, but together enough to make it interactive and fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)RenovaKunumaru Posted September 15, 2016 Author Share Posted September 15, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Thaylien said: On the other hand, did you read the bit about Tailwind dealing bonus damage to enemies inside Tornado funnels? That's genius. I wouldn't over-play it (personally I would have it be a straight 2x multiplier to Tailwind's damage) but having a reward for casting both abilities together can only improve her overall. Little synergies, individually not much, but together enough to make it interactive and fun. Of course. I considered the idea that 4 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said: I think this would perhaps work well however can we fine tune it to only physical skills can damage enemies inside tornado. That way we aren't ripping off the other abilities like vortex. but perhaps leaving tailwind solely to be able to provide this technique would be more balanced. I don't know, should all physcial skills damage enemies in tornadoes ie tailwind, landslide or just tailwind? 1 hour ago, Thaylien said: But I'd just be happy with being able to cast the winds and have them be exactly where I want them, doing their job, until the timer ends or I say to stop. I agree. We have to start from a position of power and compromise on these things. Even if DE wouldn't implement all of these things, tailwind with knockdown and combo multiplier, the divebomb rework and the limited range guaranteed hold of tornado would be refreshing enough. While I have the opportunity, I'd like to point out that my Tailwind suggestion would make techniques such as the one @Esoronodisplayed more viable. Spoiler Which surprises me that @Clowee and @Madho haven't chimed in being the Zephyr enthusiasts they are. Btw, would it be OP if, referring to my tailwind technique of holding, when you tailwind directly to the ground (which does not cancel tailwind but keeps you going forward) resets you bullet jump as if you touched the ground? Edited September 15, 2016 by (PS4)RenovaKunumaru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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