Fun Zephyr Rework w/ Pictures

[(PSN)puritan643]

I imagine a dive kick would be better than a face plant for her divebomb. I believe it's really the only thing holding her back.

I do like your suggestion making divebomb more maneuverable. 

Edited September 15, 2016 by (PS4)puritan643

[Birdframe_Prime]

4 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Btw, would it be OP if, referring to my tailwind technique of holding, when you tailwind directly to the ground (which does not cancel tailwind but keeps you going forward) resets you bullet jump as if you touched the ground?

I don't see that it would make sense, she's not alighting on anything. If she were to actually perform any action that wasn't flying, like a wall recovery, a wall run or similar, that would do it, but I think that Tailwind would have to finish before you could reset any of the jumps.

Although, this would actually play out quite well, don't you think? If you're able to steer, but the cornering is too fast and you hit the wall anyway, being able to continue with a wall run immediately and start Tailwind again from the wall without stopping, that would be very fluid. Doing that on purpose to reset bullet jump would be pretty cool.

4 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

While I have the opportunity, I'd like to point out that my Tailwind suggestion would make techniques such as the one Esorono displayed more viable.

It would... but then again it would also cripple your Turbulence (and your new Tornado), which Esorono pointed out was the weakness of this trick.

4 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

but perhaps leaving tailwind solely to be able to provide this technique would be more balanced. I don't know, should all physcial skills damage enemies in tornadoes ie tailwind, landslide or just tailwind?

Hmm... I hadn't thought of that. As far as I know, powers still affect enemies in Tornado funnels, I'm fairly sure that the radial cast ones do, just not cause animations. So Chaos and other abilities still cast on enemies, but they don't do the stagger, as an example.

Enemies that are captured would be lifted and ragdolled, so being able to target them would be difficult. I think that any ability that can hit them without direct targeting would, and should, be able to damage them. Like the ranged attacks on Exalted Blade, free-dash abilities like Slash Dash, those would be able to do something. But considering that we're trying to give some synergy to Zephyr with this, having only Tailwind capable of doing the double-damage effect would be prudent.

Also, I noticed that they hadn't been in... weird.

[Clowee]

Clowee has given up arguing Zephyr threads as a lost cause for now.  Warframe has gone stale for me after Spectres of the Fail :(

[Guest]

I'm not exactly enthusiastic about Zephyr. It's just that I see great potential in her, yet she doesn't meet my expectations. For a bird that's meant to fly up high, she gets caged in tiny maps. Not going to chime in as the ideas presented here are satisfactory.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

1 hour ago, Clowee said:

Clowee has given up arguing Zephyr threads as a lost cause for now.  Warframe has gone stale for me after Spectres of the Fail :(

I feel your pain brother.

1 hour ago, Madho said:

I'm not exactly enthusiastic about Zephyr. It's just that I see great potential in her, yet she doesn't meet my expectations. For a bird that's meant to fly up high, she gets caged in tiny maps. Not going to chime in as the ideas presented here are satisfactory.

Understood. I'll do my best to do her justice. Perhaps DE will consider these ideas. Thanks for the support.

[Birdframe_Prime]

@Clowee Thanks for fighting the fight, sorry that it's burned out for you. See you if you decide to come back, but until then have fun!

@Madho Thanks for the support!

Well... here's hoping. DE certainly can't make her worse XD

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

9 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Well... here's hoping. DE certainly can't make her worse XD

I have faith in DE.

I feel as if the directions taken thus far are optimal for offering Zephyr a creative style of play without infringing on her current playstyle.

Whether or not tailwind deserves the flight model I've described or not I believe that we've come to a proficient changelist and I'm excited to see other people's opinions. 

OP updated. Do you see anything that may be out of order?

[timur_the_lame]

 

3 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I have faith in DE.

Huge mistake.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

20 minutes ago, timur_the_lame said:

 

Huge mistake.

Well, I don't have a choice really.

If the devs do nothing I'd be fine with the way Zephyr is currently, however should they implement a rework I'd appreciate if they focused on catering the the existing fans while providing a few more incentives to entice potential players.

Not everyone is going to like Zephyr, and people will say, she's the least used frame ect. Well, one of the frames has to be the least used. That doesn't make them bad. Most of the time, the more complex and difficult a technique is to manage, the less of an audience it will receive. 

That's just how the game is played. Why there are so many Ash Bladestormers and Mirage Synoid Spammers. It's easy. People flock to easy. The idea behind the Rework wasn't to make things easier but to make the existing moves more efficient. 

I hope I've done some of that and my efforts will continue.

[timur_the_lame]

37 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Well, I don't have a choice really.

If the devs do nothing I'd be fine with the way Zephyr is currently, however should they implement a rework I'd appreciate if they focused on catering the the existing fans while providing a few more incentives to entice potential players.

Not everyone is going to like Zephyr, and people will say, she's the least used frame ect. Well, one of the frames has to be the least used. That doesn't make them bad. Most of the time, the more complex and difficult a technique is to manage, the less of an audience it will receive. 

That's just how the game is played. Why there are so many Ash Bladestormers and Mirage Synoid Spammers. It's easy. People flock to easy. The idea behind the Rework wasn't to make things easier but to make the existing moves more efficient. 

I hope I've done some of that and my efforts will continue.

I'm just saying not to trust DE.  Everything they put their hands on turns to complete S#&$.  The reason I am hoping for a rework on Zephyr is because of her massive unrealized potential--that's all; they don't need to rebalance her for power, they need to rebalance her for fun (read: don't nerf her, DE).  Just look at what they did to Mag.

Zephyr isn't complex frame (almost no frames are complex or difficult), but some are easier or inherently stronger than others.  I largely agree with you--all I'm saying is that you should put absolutely no faith in DE to ever do right.  Keep fighting the good fight, though.

[Karav]

On 9/15/2016 at 2:18 PM, (PS4)puritan643 said:

I imagine a dive kick would be better than a face plant for her divebomb.

At low altitudes, she goes feet first. I don't think any players would argue against a slight change to the animation.

7 hours ago, timur_the_lame said:

I'm just saying not to trust DE.  Everything they put their hands on turns to complete S#&$.  The reason I am hoping for a rework on Zephyr is because of her massive unrealized potential--that's all; they don't need to rebalance her for power, they need to rebalance her for fun (read: don't nerf her, DE).  Just look at what they did to Mag.

Zephyr isn't complex frame (almost no frames are complex or difficult), but some are easier or inherently stronger than others.  I largely agree with you--all I'm saying is that you should put absolutely no faith in DE to ever do right.  Keep fighting the good fight, though.

Trust is a strange thing. I might not "trust" you with my car, because I "trust" that you will wreck it if I loan it to you. It seems you "trust" in DE's ability to wreck warframe kits. Mag isn't completely ruined. Neither are Volt and Saryn. With enough energy, their reworks open up more interesting and skilled gameplay. Meh. It doesn't matter. We are off topic.

 

I have always seen Zephyr as an area denial frame. Tailwind and dive-bomb are great for reinforcing radio towers and digging machines quickly. Turbulence acts like a portable snow-globe, and tornado... Well, tornado should be good at removing groups of enemies from a point. I mean look at it: The funnels pick up the nearest enemies and then move away from the initial cast point before dropping them. The intention behind the ability is simply a way to clear the area. The trouble is that if there aren't enough enemies nearby, the whole thing falls apart.

I would be grateful if at least one tornado spawned at the location of the initial cast. The current "spawn on top of the closest four enemies" is great, but kind of useless if you want any area denial. Yes, I know that having tornadoes track down enemies would be a fantastic fix to the issue of damage. Great. Keep it. No need to rehash it with every response. Let the other twisters roam and track enemies and all that jazz. Just give me one funnel cloud that stays put and punishes enemies who get too close before evicting them.

As for other minor QoL changes...The option to recast the ability before it expires would be exceptionally useful on duration builds. I never had an issue with loot scattering because I use a carrier, but I can see how having drops gathered in one place be very useful. The same goes for making tornadoes scale based on the attacks launched at them instead of just changing the damage type.

All I ask is that when you suggest changes to Zephyr, remember the concept of aerial (ha ha) denial.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

8 hours ago, Karav said:

trouble is that if there aren't enough enemies nearby, the whole thing falls apart.

@Thaylien addressed this issue in his posts contributed to the OP. If the tornadoes have a maximum and minimum range, you can be certain that they target enemies within that range and won't wander off. They also have a suction range which can benefit pulling targets who linger just outside their permitted range. 

 

8 hours ago, Karav said:

All I ask is that when you suggest changes to Zephyr, remember the concept of aerial (ha ha) denial.

That's what I'm targeting. 

She can jet through enemies in an aerial assault from tailwind. That knocks them down. I'm not even sure if people know they can cancel into abilities from tailwind but that's currently available contributing to a safer tornado and divebomb cast as well. 

Her passive that makes her float gives her the opportunity to ensure she domimates the battlefield from above while most enemies wont even target her. Most people I'm seeing are upset that she cant remain stationary in the air forever and I just don't see how that makes for balanced gameplay at all.

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

I like the ideas, basically improving the quality of her current abilities is the way to go IMO.

I think for Tail Wind it also need some obstacle avoiding mechanic, so you don't get stuck on small boxes, corners or railings. Like if there's a way to continue the dash within like 1-2 meters when Zephyr hits an obstacle, she would just automatically go around it and continue dashing forward. I already get stuck on those plenty of times in enclosed tileset, but with extended Tail Wind it might become a nightmare. Alternatively they could just make it so you can slightly strafe sideways/up/down with directional keys to avoid obstacles manually (I know that with your suggestion you can control with aiming, but it would be hard to use that to avoid small obstacles)

Dive Bomb idea is very good. Scaling with melee is much needed for it to be viable compared to melee slams. I don't think I can add anything here.

As for Tornado, I think it would be cool if the size/width of tornadoes would scale with range (along with suck-in radius). Currently Power Range mostly hurt the Tornado ability, since it only makes them spawn further away from you. Also I think it would be great if you could manually place tornadoes at certain spots for more precision. Like maybe if you hold 4, you spawn all at once, but if you just press it once you spawn one by one for 1/4 of the energy and with slightly quicker cast. Or maybe if you could spawn a single, much larger tornado for the same energy.

I assume Turbulence is going to be the same as now, which is fine, since it's probably the most viable ability in Zephyr's kit, and doesn't really need any changes.

 

Oh and +1 for using Nioh clip ;)

Edited September 17, 2016 by (PS4)Gaelic-_-Flame

[Birdframe_Prime]

47 minutes ago, (PS4)Gaelic-_-Flame said:

I think for Tail Wind it also need some obstacle avoiding mechanic, so you don't get stuck on small boxes, corners or railings.

Hey there, welcome in ^^ I completely agree, which is why I push the idea of getting Tailwind to combine with the Parkour mechanics a little more, and why both myself and @(PS4)RenovaKunumaru are convinced she needs at least a small amount of steering on it (he thinks a more Navigator-esque control, while I believe it should be for course-correction only, but we agree she should have it).

The idea being that at shallow angles of impact, Zephyr slides off as normal, but for hard angles/impacts she triggers a recovery animation, essentially a short animation only of a wall-cling, which you can then press Aim to extend into an actual wall cling, or hold Jump to turn into a wall run/climb and continue where you were going. Even then, at a shallow angle, if you feel like you're going the wrong way, holding space will turn it into a wall run. And this way, casting Tailwind while during parkour wall movement extends the ability from the parkour for smooth transitions between the two states.

Basically, Tailwind is a great movement ability, and people often say that it's made obsolete by bullet jump, well then why not incorporate parkour movement into Tailwind and it becomes just as useful, it's your third, fourth and fifth bullet jump, it flows with the movement system and can therefore no longer be made obsolete, since it's not an either/or choice. Adding steering of any amount would also prevent all those times when a slightly off-target cast will leave you with your face grinding against a wall until you lost momentum.

57 minutes ago, (PS4)Gaelic-_-Flame said:

As for Tornado

These are some good ideas, the cast up to 4 simultaneously, but dropping one a time when tapping the ability would be fun, but then would negate any active cancel ability... unless you cast up to four and then the fifth tap cancelled... but again, you lose the active cancel.

Having the size of the funnels scale with your ability stats might be a little difficult for reliable animations... if your funnels are too small, then the lift function would look very silly ^^

Renova and I have been discussing back and forth about Tornado for a while in here, take a read back through if you'd like, he's really helped me cover the strengths and weaknesses of it.

The simple idea is that you cast and the funnels form around you as normal, but there is a fixed range they can roam in. Each funnel is the same object it is currently, able to wander, capture enemies, have its element damage type changed and so on, but the fixed range means that things like enemy seeking aren't handled on a 'by how close they are to each funnel' basis, enemies are targeted from the moment they cross the limits of the cast, no matter where the funnels are at the time. This way you can boost the speed of the funnels, make sure they don't wander over game objects and stick to the nav-mesh, adjust how they capture, hold and release enemies/loot to make the ability far better at area-denial CC, and because of this you can even balance how much damage they do compared to other abilities in the game.

In fact, this is why I think it's perfect for people like Karav:

9 hours ago, Karav said:

I have always seen Zephyr as an area denial frame.

He understands the power of an ability that can hard-CC multiple enemies, including new approaching ones, for the entire cast.

Tornado, if it were made as reliable as I think it would be with this change, would be on par with the area denial of Vortex, with nearly as much damage potential as Tentacle Swarm (which for some reason does Finisher damage... don't know why... and that's more applicable at the higher end).

Putting an active cancel on it would cover the long-duration problem, so it's not as quick as either Vortex or Swarm, as Vortex can be multiple objects, and Swarm is instant spawn in the new location, but a cancel and re-cast would allow for more active choices for area denial with it, and not have it be too over-powered compared to Vortex.

9 hours ago, Karav said:

The current "spawn on top of the closest four enemies" is great, but kind of useless if you want any area denial. Yes, I know that having tornadoes track down enemies would be a fantastic fix to the issue of damage. Great. Keep it. No need to rehash it with every response. Let the other twisters roam and track enemies and all that jazz. Just give me one funnel cloud that stays put and punishes enemies who get too close before evicting them.

The idea for faster tracking was not actually for Damage, initially, my point with it was that it would provide more reliable damage, something that could be boosted and balanced later, as long as you could guarantee that an enemy would be captured, held for a time, launched, and then immediately re-targeted for re-capture upon hitting the floor (making this a full control ability for anything in range of the initial cast). I may have mentioned that I like the idea of launching enemies vertically on release, not outwards, which is because they fall back inside the range and, once they touch the floor again, they are then re-targeted by the nearest funnel.

Having any enemies that walk into the ability targeted by the nearest funnel from the moment they touch the range would mean that all four funnels are able to actively patrol the area, seek and capture any enemy in range very quickly. There is little-to-no chance, once the initial cast on the point sucks up the enemies directly around Zephyr, that any enemy would be able to approach the centre of the cast (like a pod or drill) without becoming captured by a funnel, since they're all actively seeking anything that's within that range from the moment it enters.

All you'd have to do is put neutral range build on, or even slightly negative range if you prefer, and nothing will reach that point that you don't want to, only things outside the range will still be on their feet after a few seconds.

You see the possibilities, at least, right?

Personally I really like interactions like Azamagon's contribution, which inspired the idea for having Tailwind deal double-damage to an enemy if it happens to be inside a Tornado funnel, because enemies will be in them for a reliable duration, not floating above them on the ceiling unable to be shot, and then released completely to be picked up again (for a reliable duration). The interaction will ensure that players are rewarded for interacting the two abilities, and that there is a reason to stay near the point of cast and not just flit about out of range of your team's Affinity bonus.

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

24 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

These are some good ideas, the cast up to 4 simultaneously, but dropping one a time when tapping the ability would be fun, but then would negate any active cancel ability... unless you cast up to four and then the fifth tap cancelled... but again, you lose the active cancel.

This is a fair point. I guess it's possible to make it always cancel with hold if you have at least one tornado. Which would only limit the ability to place all the remaining tornadoes at once when you already have one or two. So for example if you tap button you get one tornado, if you tap it again you get second tornado, but if you hold you get all the tornadoes removed. If you hold with no tornadoes up you get all 4 placed at the same time, and holding it again would remove all tornadoes.

Might be still a bit confusing though, so I'm not sure... On the other hand we don't have the cancel now, so maybe DE wouldn't want us to cancel it anyways, which eliminates the problem.

Edited September 17, 2016 by (PS4)Gaelic-_-Flame

[Birdframe_Prime]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Gaelic-_-Flame said:

On the other hand we don't have the cancel now, so maybe DE wouldn't want us to cancel it anyways, which eliminates the problem.

We don't have an active cancel because this was created in update 12, back when none of the abilities had an active cancel. All the frames that were brought out before her have since gained functions to their duration abilities that cancel them, I think the first was Banshee's Sound Quake becoming a toggle in update 13........ 13.3, according to the Wiki. I remember it happening ^^

After that a lot of abilities gained mechanics to end them, like Frost's Snow Globe changes where you can kill it for an AoE by casting Freeze at it, Ember's 4 becoming a toggle, Excal's rework, Valkyr's 4 becoming toggled... I think the first 'active dispel' frame was actually Mirage in update 14, with the function on her 4 relying on the active dispel. Obviously the idea caught on after Banshee.

An active dispel on Tornado would be damn useful, especially if the changes I was thinking of can be implemented, and I see no reason why DE wouldn't want to include one. Even if they were to only include that, it would be an improvement on the current state of Tornado.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

If Zephyr collides into a wall using tailwind this?

But seriously, I feel there is some creative opportunity to be discovered in helping turbulence against walls although it isn't a top priority like the other issues.

Edited September 18, 2016 by (PS4)RenovaKunumaru

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

I've noticed that a lot of Zephyr enthusiast claim that its a bit difficult to manage using Zephyr to stay in the air.

The rate in which you can kill high level enemies without using an AoE weapon doesn't match the effort in which you spend timing the shots and getting the hits. It seems that a lot of people have suggested in other threads that Zephyrs aim glide time be increased to fix this issue. The OP has taken the time to address those issues in regards to divebomb but now I propose another suggestion in conjunctions with the current ideas to remedy this:

When casting tailwind hold mechanic, flying ground level resets the aim glide timer.

Here's an example, you tailwind upwards from the ground and start shooting at a group of enemies, you manage to kill some and damage others. You then use you double jump, as your aim glide began running out and have a few more moments to kill/damage the enemies in your path. Then your descent begins.

However, as you begin to fall you press and hold tailwind aiming directly at the enemies. As Zephyr dashes to them, they suffer base damage and knockdown, as a part of the OP, but then you continuously hold the tailwind button looking upwards afterwards and bring yourself back to the skies. Your aim glide timer is reset as you tailwinded at ground level (tailwind doesn't stop when aimed at ground just keeps you moving forward) and you continue your assault again. 

This of course could have been mixed up with a dive bomb as you began to descend but you have choices now at least.

 

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

When casting tailwind hold mechanic, flying ground level resets the aim glide timer.

 

Here's an example, you tailwind upwards from the ground and start shooting at a group of enemies, you manage to kill some and damage others. You then use you double jump, as your aim glide began running out and have a few more moments to kill/damage the enemies in your path. Then your descent begins.

However, as you begin to fall you press and hold tailwind aiming directly at the enemies. As Zephyr dashes to them, they suffer base damage and knockdown, as a part of the OP, but then you continuously hold the tailwind button looking upwards afterwards and bring yourself back to the skies. Your aim glide timer is reset as you tailwinded at ground level (tailwind doesn't stop when aimed at ground just keeps you moving forward) and you continue your assault again. 

This of course could have been mixed up with a dive bomb as you began to descend but you have choices now at least.

I'm pretty sure, Aim Glide usually refills quick enough so you can Aim Glide after like 1-2 seconds again. I mean it wouldn't hurt to get a more consistent refill, but I'm pretty sure you can already do pretty much what you described (considering Tail Wind gets that change) However I always wanted Tail Wind to recharge other parkour moves, like Double Jump or maybe even Bullet Jump for a much better aerial control.

Edited September 19, 2016 by (PS4)Gaelic-_-Flame

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)Gaelic-_-Flame said:

I'm pretty sure, Aim Glide usually refills quick enough so you can Aim Glide after like 1-2 seconds again. I mean it wouldn't hurt to get a more consistent refill, but I'm pretty sure you can already do pretty much what you described (considering Tail Wind gets that change) However I always wanted Tail Wind to recharge other parkour moves, like Double Jump or maybe even Bullet Jump for a much better aerial control.

My apologies. I've confused the aim glide recovery rate with the fast fall mechanic. Usually when I maintain airtime I return to the ground after to reset what I thought was a waning aim glide until you just pointed this out. It appears that what I was actually uncomfortable with is a fast fall that happens after the initial jump.

Yes, I meant all of those abilities reset from tailwind should you touch the ground.  I don't think it should reset unless you tailwind towards the ground otherwise you're just trying to make a maskeshift version of hovering. 

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

My apologies. I've confused the aim glide recovery rate with the fast fall mechanic. Usually when I maintain airtime I return to the ground after to reset what I thought was a waning aim glide until you just pointed this out. It appears that what I was actually uncomfortable with is a fast fall that happens after the initial jump.

Yes, I meant all of those abilities reset from tailwind should you touch the ground.  I don't think it should reset unless you tailwind towards the ground otherwise you're just trying to make a maskeshift version of hovering. 

There's also that annoying bug which makes you fall super fast after doing a mid-air Tail Wind, which pretty much negates Aim Glide ability. I guess that's what you mean by fast fall?

Also I'm fine with hovering as long as it's active hovering. Like if you constantly have to move around and utilize all your parkour movements to stay up in the air, then why not? I mean technically we could already do pretty much the same with current Tail Wind IF it wasn't for that bug which drags you downwards after mid-air use. Even with that bug you can kinda stay in the air, but it just gets extremely annoying, because you have to recast Tail Wind upwards WAY too often to do that.

[Birdframe_Prime]

8 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Yes, I meant all of those abilities reset from tailwind should you touch the ground.

I think I commented on this, and I think I said something like 'All her aerial movements, like jumps and aim glide, should reset as long as she alights on something.' Namely that as long as she lands on anything at all, walls, objects, even the fact that you can actually parkour up the 'surface' on enemies, then all her jumps and fall momentum reset. I don't think that resetting just because she touches a surface in Tailwind would make sense, as she's still using her ability actively at the time.

8 hours ago, (PS4)Gaelic-_-Flame said:

There's also that annoying bug which makes you fall super fast after doing a mid-air Tail Wind, which pretty much negates Aim Glide ability. I guess that's what you mean by fast fall?

That's been nerfed, horribly so, a lot of people are disappointed.

And what Renova was talking about is this: No matter the frame, as long as you're in the air you seem to gain downwards momentum, so even Zephyr with her low grav starts falling the same speed as everyone else after a few parkour moves and after Aim Glide runs out, it's actually something of a bug when it applies to Zephyr. DE did it so that people have a challenge when using parkour for long intervals, basically the longer you go the quicker you start falling at the 'heavy landing' velocity after movements. Unfortunately they forgot that this would over-ride Zephyr's passive.

He's absolutely right that this should be fixed, though. But I don't quite agree that the mechanics of it should trigger when touching the ground during Tailwind and rather should be (as I said already) when she alights on something.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

16 hours ago, Thaylien said:

I think I commented on this, and I think I said something like 'All her aerial movements, like jumps and aim glide, should reset as long as she alights on something.' Namely that as long as she lands on anything at all, walls, objects, even the fact that you can actually parkour up the 'surface' on enemies, then all her jumps and fall momentum reset. I don't think that resetting just because she touches a surface in Tailwind would make sense, as she's still using her ability actively at the time.

The idea is to encourage players to incorporate the "useless" tailwind into their skill set. You may not agree with the idea because conceptionally as this would include the tailwind flying mechanic I've suggested but essentially it would be just as I described. A way to bridge together techniques to offer Zephyr a dynamic style of attacking with aerial assaults and swoops to the ground that would not just incapacitate the enemies, but reward players with a reset to their parkour abilities. 

Tailwind up, shoot from the sky, tailwind (hold) into the enemies and rise back up to the air in the same momentum. Shoot again, or tailwind into them again, or divebomb (tailwinding into at least 5 enemies starts the melee combo multiplier at 1.5 since tailwind contributes to it.)

 

What you suggest, I imagine works as well but I could only imagine myself tailwinding to a high location, shooting, and then jumping on the wall closest to me for a reset. Shoot again, jump on the same wall. No need to change positions when most enemies wont target you from certain heights anyway. Feels a bit stagnant compared to what it could be but that's just my opinion. Perhaps I just don't see the vision you have for it properly.

[Birdframe_Prime]

9 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Perhaps I just don't see the vision you have for it properly.

Might be the case, might not. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just that it might not be needed. Think of it this way:

From all the places I can think of where an extended Tailwind would be more useful than the regular tap, you wouldn't be using it for actually hitting enemies to apply the knock-down (well, maybe just for fun), you'd be getting from place to place (one end of the tile to the other) very quickly and avoiding obstacles in the way using your steering, wouldn't you?

So here's the question: if Tailwind was fully steerable, then in most situations where you'd use that steering and long range... what would be the point of resetting the parkour jumps? You would be able to steer enough that you wouldn't actually need more than the usual amount of parkour jumps. Tailwind and Aim Glide would be enough to go the entire length or breadth of that room without stopping, even with side-trips to knock down enemies.

On the other hand, it makes perfect sense for it to reset on latch or wall-run or wall-recover, even in that situation, because the only time you'd hit the wall with full steering would be if you couldn't steer fast enough to go where you needed to. In that case, having the jumps reset there would be perfectly logical, since you would then be able to use them from the wall or other objects to do whatever you wanted, even if that was just to jump away into a new Tailwind.

I'm not saying that resetting when you brush the ground is a bad function, you see, I'm just saying it's actually an unnecessary one from a practical use point of view. No point getting DE to program a function that isn't really needed.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

3 hours ago, Thaylien said:

From all the places I can think of where an extended Tailwind would be more useful than the regular tap, you wouldn't be using it for actually hitting enemies to apply the knock-down (well, maybe just for fun), you'd be getting from place to place (one end of the tile to the other) very quickly and avoiding obstacles in the way using your steering, wouldn't you?

 

The way I use Zephyr is mostly from air combat AoE. I'm constantly on the move aiming down from the air on the enemies whenever I get the chance. In those instances I'm above the enemy aiming down. Given the circumstance that the enemies haven't been finished off, I've already used my jumps and are looking down and descending. From the same positioning I can  target the group I'm attacking, or any other nearby groups in a single fell swoop and reposition myself in the air. Swoop down, and then up.

 

3 hours ago, Thaylien said:

So here's the question: if Tailwind was fully steerable, then in most situations where you'd use that steering and long range... what would be the point of resetting the parkour jumps? You would be able to steer enough that you wouldn't actually need more than the usual amount of parkour jumps. Tailwind and Aim Glide would be enough to go the entire length or breadth of that room without stopping, even with side-trips to knock down enemies.

 

The example I provided would be effective, no?

 

3 hours ago, Thaylien said:

On the other hand, it makes perfect sense for it to reset on latch or wall-run or wall-recover, even in that situation, because the only time you'd hit the wall with full steering would be if you couldn't steer fast enough to go where you needed to. In that case, having the jumps reset there would be perfectly logical, since you would then be able to use them from the wall or other objects to do whatever you wanted, even if that was just to jump away into a new Tailwind.

 

From a reset on wall latch I'm essentially playing spiderman. Tailwind to a corner, wall latch and shoot. When wall latch begins to fade, let go of latch and then jump back on the same wall. Rinse and repeat. 

If I'm misunderstanding this please tell me but with your idea, this is possible right?

The idea is to reset the fast fall so that it doesn't happen, virtually keeping above the enemies indefinitely as long as you have a wall?

Edited September 21, 2016 by (PS4)RenovaKunumaru