Fun Zephyr Rework w/ Pictures

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

The idea is to reset the fast fall so that it doesn't happen, virtually keeping above the enemies indefinitely as long as you have a wall?

Ahhh, so it's not the jumps you want reset (not really), but the fast fall not to happen, which is actually a bug on Zephyr as she shouldn't fast fall even after extended air time as long as she hasn't gained enough downward momentum.

I think I see where you're coming from, but I also think you're misunderstanding the function I'm trying to put in for the wall recovery, it wouldn't influence the style of play you'll be creating as much as you think.

Okay, so let me see if I can explain this; rather than a 'landing' that your last DBZ gif showed, it's more like the way a DBZ character will somersault towards a wall, hit it feet first, and then launch back at their opponent. If they wanted, they could stay against the wall, or run along it, which is what I'm proposing with the 'extend it by Aiming' part, but the main function is to absorb the momentum from travelling in one direction, and then travel in another.

The wall recovery is not supposed to be a full wall latch, just a transition that can be extended into a latch or run if you need it, it's more something that happens to stop you from just expending all your momentum against the wall slowly and then falling, which we do currently. 

Basically, you seem to think I want people to spend their time shooting from the latch phase, which is not the case, I want to be in the air as much as you do, I just think it can be done without full steering as easily as it can with it.

In any case, debate about steering aside, I only push this because Tailwind is a fixed animation state, as long as you're holding down the button (in either your or my version), you're in that particular animation. It makes no sense for that animation, at any time during its course, to reset your jumps. The same with Aim Glide, it's a state of fixed animation. However, finishing that animation and triggering a new one does allow you to change your animation state and gives something to trigger the reset, you see?

To the game, there is no difference between Tailwind at thirty feet high, and Tailwind at two feet high, unless there's something that changes the state of the warframe nothing will trigger that reset, even brushing the ground in Tailwind.

That's the logic I'm using, at least.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

-snip-

Took me a while because I could not for the love of everything figure out what you wanted from this.

I can compromise with this. The air reset doesn't need to be from a brushed ground tailwind. The technique I mentioned would be beneficial, but it doesn't stop the technique from existing as tailwind still resets the aim glide timer. Fast fall would prevent this from being an infinite loop.

This doesn't explain however, why Zephyr would be the exception to the rules of aerial resets when every frame has parkour. Theres no reason why this shouldn't be a univerasl feature for all frames.

[Birdframe_Prime]

53 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Theres no reason why this shouldn't be a univerasl feature for all frames.

All I've been trying to explain in these last comments is that your method of play you prefer would not change, but that the reset you suggested that would happen during Tailwind instead of on the same mechanics as the rest of parkour wasn't a good idea.

I apologise if I've managed to confuse you ^^

Parkour currently doesn't reset things like the double jump or the fast-fall limit on any frame, wall-based moves will allow a further jump at the end of them to launch away from the wall, but the limits are still there. I pointed out that Zephyr shouldn't actually suffer from the fast fall mechanic, because of her light weight and low gravity passive, and that the proposed way to incorporate Tailwind into the parkour mechanics would be a natural way to reset things even if she was still subject to it. As a bonus for her light weight adding into Parkour (since we're already increasing her aim-glide functions with her passive) wall moves might be able to reset parkour entirely to allow double-jumps from the walls or at the end of a Tailwind again.

But then you started talking about shooting from wall latches and using Tailwind only to move between them, as if I expected you to use Tailwind differently to the way you wanted to use it, and I tried to explain that this wasn't the case at all.

It was purely that there was no reason a Tailwind touching the ground should reset any of the functions of Parkour that I wanted to be clear about.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

37 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

All I've been trying to explain in these last comments is that your method of play you prefer would not change, but that the reset you suggested that would happen during Tailwind instead of on the same mechanics as the rest of parkour wasn't a good idea.

I apologise if I've managed to confuse you ^^

Parkour currently doesn't reset things like the double jump or the fast-fall limit on any frame, wall-based moves will allow a further jump at the end of them to launch away from the wall, but the limits are still there. I pointed out that Zephyr shouldn't actually suffer from the fast fall mechanic, because of her light weight and low gravity passive, and that the proposed way to incorporate Tailwind into the parkour mechanics would be a natural way to reset things even if she was still subject to it. As a bonus for her light weight adding into Parkour (since we're already increasing her aim-glide functions with her passive) wall moves might be able to reset parkour entirely to allow double-jumps from the walls or at the end of a Tailwind again.

But then you started talking about shooting from wall latches and using Tailwind only to move between them, as if I expected you to use Tailwind differently to the way you wanted to use it, and I tried to explain that this wasn't the case at all.

It was purely that there was no reason a Tailwind touching the ground should reset any of the functions of Parkour that I wanted to be clear about.

Perhaps I just don't see it because I don't parkour with Zephyr. There's never a reason to for me. I'm always using the augment so running on the ground is faster than wall running and sticking to walls is my least used ability in the parkour arsenal.

If aerial moves reset on parkour that's still not likely to change because of my gameplay style. It would be a bit of a waste to me but i wont knock you for your advocacy of it.

[Karav]

1 hour ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

This doesn't explain however, why Zephyr would be the exception to the rules of aerial resets when every frame has parkour. Theres no reason why this shouldn't be a univerasl feature for all frames.

Once upon a time, I suggested resetting the fall speed of Zephyr after each use of tailwind. Glad to see it back on the table. Zephyr gets special treatment because she's a bird/mage/wind-elemental and we want an effective way to keep her in the air without having to rework everything.

On 9/17/2016 at 3:19 PM, Thaylien said:

He understands the power of an ability that can hard-CC multiple enemies, including new approaching ones, for the entire cast.

Get to know me, and you'll soon realize I prioritize CC and survival over damage 9/10 times. My first frame was Loki, who has literally nothing but CC and utility (invisibility does not do damage, it multiplies what already exists). Damage falls off quickly, but CC can lock down entire groups for a long time. I use a Zhuge with blast and thunderbolt because it has good synergy with jet-stream and the status procs almost guarantee extra CC. At high levels, ability damage isn't worth a thing.

Let's be honest, Zephyr doesn't have a kit well suited to damage. It has the kit of an evasion tank -- movement, two forms of CC, and the ability to dodge almost all incoming enemy fire. Your weapons are your primary source of damage. Most builds focus on range and duration over power strength.

The idea of using negative range to make tornado an effective zoning tool might work. I have some other thoughts on the ability, but they can wait for now.

7 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

It was purely that there was no reason a Tailwind touching the ground should reset any of the functions of Parkour that I wanted to be clear about.

Unless tailwind has some kind of CC element to it, there is no reason to use it on/near the ground except as an expensive bullet jump. Wait. No, I take that back. I sometimes use it to race to objectives on low-ceiling maps. Even there, parkour resets because I'm already on the ground at the end of using tailwind. I see the extended tailwind as being about as functional as Volt's riot shield: a fun idea, but less effective than just recasting.

 

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

8 hours ago, Karav said:

Unless tailwind has some kind of CC element to it,

Welcome back Karav, and for this we've discussed giving Tailwind a CC, the one I've had best response from is a custom-animation CC where enemies Zephyr passes in her 'damage range' are spun around two or three times and forced to re-target, with a low chance at causing a confusion proc. This would allow Zephyr to pass through groups of enemies when the ceilings are low, but not deal extravagant damage to them, while also clearing the way for allies, but the custom animation (instead of a knock-down) would then give her the element of fun that many frames lack, and encourage people to use it more actively.

There's also the nice little interaction that sprung from an earlier suggestion; simply the idea that Tailwind through a Tornado funnel deals double-damage to anything inside that funnel, which isn't much overall, but is one more incentive for players to use it actively and offensively to get the results they want.

But that's mostly it, until you weigh in on the Tornado and new Dive Bomb functions.

Although I feel I have to put in something on this quickly;

8 hours ago, Karav said:

At high levels, ability damage isn't worth a thing.

Specifics, my man, specifics are important here. Most abilities have a damage cap, however there are some where that cap is actually ridiculously high, such as Mesa and especially Nova. Nova's AMD is literally the most damaging thing in game, it can pump out over 100,000 dps in a radial blast over a 12m area (based on a maxed capacity AMD able to be crashed into the area every 4 seconds, it's how quite a lot of us still get through high-wave Infested Defense), which is about ten times that of the best weapons. Crit weapons can, in theory, do higher if you take the time to build up that combo so high that it can deal higher damage, but the second you mis-judge a timer or get knocked down at the wrong time, you're back to square one, and that's never fun. Even Mag, with scaling based on enemy damage, has both a very decent point-CC and the potential for an incredibly high amount of damage during and at the end of Magnetise. 

On the other hand... what high levels? There is no more reward for going past 20 minutes/waves in any game mode, barring farming, and even that's more rewarded by doing mid-length runs. Until DE puts back in a reward for passing the hour in survival, we can put away most of our arguments about high level. Raids and Sorties are too cheese-able to be endgame, too...

Moving on. Not going to make a big issue out of that.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

3 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Welcome back Karav, and for this we've discussed giving Tailwind a CC, the one I've had best response from is a custom-animation CC where enemies Zephyr passes in her 'damage range' are spun around two or three times and forced to re-target, with a low chance at causing a confusion proc.

That would be amazing. Certainly not needed but a much welcomed addition. I'd honestly just prefer the manipulated range idea you had as long as the range couldn't drop below a 12m radius or something. Thats highly debatable but I'm convinced your position would be highly effective in those regards. 

For those unaware, the idea is to tie Tornadoes maximum travel distance to the range stat to ensure how far it patrols. If it can't patrol past a certain area, then you can assure that it will attack the enemies engaging in the vacinity in which you cast them.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

@Thaylien I believe you had an idea to have Zephyr wall Cling on impact with tailwind to allow people to stop from flying needlessly into the wall from a bad aim.

I kinda like the idea, correct if I'm wrong but that was you correct?

[Phantom-6]

I love this idea.  Good work.

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

@Thaylien I believe you had an idea to have Zephyr wall Cling on impact with tailwind to allow people to stop from flying needlessly into the wall from a bad aim.

I kinda like the idea, correct if I'm wrong but that was you correct?

Yeah, that was me ^^

Really simple in practice; instead of just hitting the wall and having to wait for the ability to end and for your momentum to let you get off the wall again (we've all done it) it triggers an animation. You recover against the wall, something like this (for those that remember it):

It only lasts for a moment or two, and then you drop down. If you want, you can extend it into a full wall latch by pressing Aim (your camera changes to the normal view and so on) or you can turn it into a wall-run by holding Jump.

[kristophy]

the Bird frame needs her first ability exactly how you said it sir that would make her amazing!!

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

On 9/23/2016 at 1:05 PM, Phalanx21860 said:

I love this idea.  Good work.

 

 

12 hours ago, kristophy said:

the Bird frame needs her first ability exactly how you said it sir that would make her amazing!!

Thank you both. Everyone participating in this thread has a mutual interest in seeing Zephyr improved. Through the discussion of ideas and debates/criticism I think we'll continue to introduce an amazing rework while still preserving the functions of the existing frame. Leaving the likes you did on the comment helps persuade DE a little I believe when they see people agree. So on behalf of everyone participating, thank you.

On 9/23/2016 at 3:14 PM, Thaylien said:

Yeah, that was me ^^

I think having Zephyr instantly wall latch when pressing the wall latch key binding, despite where her animation is in tailwind would be fantastic. I do believe that it should be upon pressing the appropriate key however, keeping control in the hands of the player. 

Edited September 25, 2016 by (PS4)RenovaKunumaru

[Azamagon]

I go in to this thread almost every day because I want her #1 and #2 to be as suggested here so much! >_<

Flying through enemies like a crazed agile osprey, then divebombing them with tremendous power... it just sounds so much fun! :D

Edited September 25, 2016 by Azamagon

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I think having Zephyr instantly wall latch when pressing the wall latch key binding, despite where her animation is in tailwind would be fantastic.

Heh, again, that was me too ^^ The idea for transforming Tailwind into a wall run or latch when she's at a shallow angle to the wall, allowing her to change direction, climb, cling or whatever she wants to do. If you dig back in the comments here, I'm certain I mentioned it. The Recovery is literally just for those moments when you cast it and would, normally, have smacked into the wall and waited for your momentum to end. I like it as an automatic function of the ability because it gives players a chance to react where before they didn't have one.

We can do it with bullet jump, so I don't see why not with Tailwind, people already see Tailwind as a form of Bullet Jump for energy, so why not go with it and make Parkour so much a part of Tailwind that it's a fluid part of the system and not a decision you consciously make?

It's why I liked your idea to extend Tailwind by holding the key, because it will not only allow people to use this as a more complete mobility tool to compete with Volt's Speed and Nova's Wormhole over long distance, but they would still have the option to parkour out of it at any time if they started heading for a wall. (Again, I still differ on how much steering to give her, but that's all in DE's hands XD)

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

1 minute ago, Thaylien said:

Heh, again, that was me too ^^ The idea for transforming Tailwind into a wall run or latch when she's at a shallow angle to the wall, allowing her to change direction, climb, cling or whatever she wants to do. If you dig back in the comments here, I'm certain I mentioned it. The Recovery is literally just for those moments when you cast it and would, normally, have smacked into the wall and waited for your momentum to end. I like it as an automatic function of the ability because it gives players a chance to react where before they didn't have one.

We can do it with bullet jump, so I don't see why not with Tailwind, people already see Tailwind as a form of Bullet Jump for energy, so why not go with it and make Parkour so much a part of Tailwind that it's a fluid part of the system and not a decision you consciously make?

It's why I liked your idea to extend Tailwind by holding the key, because it will not only allow people to use this as a more complete mobility tool to compete with Volt's Speed and Nova's Wormhole over long distance, but they would still have the option to parkour out of it at any time if they started heading for a wall. (Again, I still differ on how much steering to give her, but that's all in DE's hands XD)

I sometimes tailwind into a door while waiting for it to open lol. I wouldn't want it to change that personally.

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I sometimes tailwind into a door while waiting for it to open lol. I wouldn't want it to change that personally.

Hmm... but a door is a mobile game object, not a wall, so that would be quite acceptable as a difference in application. Walls and other solid objects would Recover, doors (which should open for you ahead of time anyway) wouldn't trigger it. In a similar format, you wouldn't recover against the Corpus or Grineer payload objects (the Fomorian core or the snow vehicle), because they're mobile objects without any real fixed surfaces. See? Perfectly sensible.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

Just now, Thaylien said:

Hmm... but a door is a mobile game object, not a wall, so that would be quite acceptable as a difference in application. Walls and other solid objects would Recover, doors (which should open for you ahead of time anyway) wouldn't trigger it. In a similar format, you wouldn't recover against the Corpus or Grineer payload objects (the Fomorian core or the snow vehicle), because they're mobile objects without any real fixed surfaces. See? Perfectly sensible.

Ah, hadn't thought of it that way. That's very agreeable. With that being differentiated, then yeah that'd be great actually.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

Thought of an idea:

Clear Skies (Tailwind Augment)

Tailwinding through hazards clears the affected area and removes status ailments.

Essentially Zephyr can tailwind through Hyekka fire and clear it from the stage. Tailwind through toxin auras and clear them from the stage. Tailwind through teammates and clear their ailments. Does not include radiation.

The idea is that the wind cuts through and clears the area.

Whatcha think?

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Thought of an idea:

Clear Skies (Tailwind Augment)

Tailwinding through hazards clears the affected area and removes status ailments.

Essentially Zephyr can tailwind through Hyekka fire and clear it from the stage. Tailwind through toxin auras and clear them from the stage. Tailwind through teammates and clear their ailments. Does not include radiation.

The idea is that the wind cuts through and clears the area.

Whatcha think?

Genius.

Not over-powered, useful in a team, a completely optional function that will adjust your thinking on how to play Zephyr.

I have no complaints ^^

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

2 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Thought of an idea:

Clear Skies (Tailwind Augment)

Tailwinding through hazards clears the affected area and removes status ailments.

Essentially Zephyr can tailwind through Hyekka fire and clear it from the stage. Tailwind through toxin auras and clear them from the stage. Tailwind through teammates and clear their ailments. Does not include radiation.

The idea is that the wind cuts through and clears the area.

Whatcha think?

To me it seems like another augment which I'll never justify a slot for. In my opinion Augment should be powerful enough to be able to replace a general purpose ability mod, like Intensify, Stretch, Continuity, etc. This seems more like an extra effect, which might have been a default effect in the first place without being too powerful.

[Ironelle]

The representation of dive bomb in the OP is perfect. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Gaelic-_-Flame said:

To me it seems like another augment which I'll never justify a slot for. In my opinion Augment should be powerful enough to be able to replace a general purpose ability mod, like Intensify, Stretch, Continuity, etc. This seems more like an extra effect, which might have been a default effect in the first place without being too powerful.

Correct, but name one case that's not Mirage where the augment on a frame's 1st ability is actually worth losing one of those mods when you're not simply experimenting with fun builds?

You can't over-power an augment for a 1 ability, but you can make it a trick that normal abilities just don't do for that kind of low energy cost.

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

3 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Correct, but name one case that's not Mirage where the augment on a frame's 1st ability is actually worth losing one of those mods when you're not simply experimenting with fun builds?

You can't over-power an augment for a 1 ability, but you can make it a trick that normal abilities just don't do for that kind of low energy cost.

IMO both Ash's Shuriken and Banshee's Sonic Boom augments are really good (both reducing armor) It's true that others might be a bit lacking (but still might find a use in certain situations), but I don't think it's a good excuse to release more lacking augments. Even if they would be with a narrow specialization I think they should be worthy and unique enough. Removing procs isn't unique enough for me, because not only it's not useful enough in the first place, as there are not many dangerous procs, the only one that's really useful to remove/cancel is knockdown, and obviously you wouldn't be able to do it with this augment.

[Birdframe_Prime]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Gaelic-_-Flame said:

IMO both Ash's Shuriken and Banshee's Sonic Boom augments are really good (both reducing armor) It's true that others might be a bit lacking (but still might find a use in certain situations), but I don't think it's a good excuse to release more lacking augments. Even if they would be with a narrow specialization I think they should be worthy and unique enough. Removing procs isn't unique enough for me, because not only it's not useful enough in the first place, as there are not many dangerous procs, the only one that's really useful to remove/cancel is knockdown, and obviously you wouldn't be able to do it with this augment.

What if we extended it to Sapper orbs?

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

What if we extended it to Sapper orbs?

I don't think it would change much. It's still an augment that affects like 1-2 enemies from each faction, which may or may not be in a mission you're going into. It also gives you a clumsy way of removing procs from allies, but do you actually expect to remove procs with it that often? First of all it's not easy to spot a proc on ally in the first place, then you'll have to hit them with Tailwind (which might be a challenge on its own, considering how fast paced the game is). If you've ever played Oberon or Nezha, just how many times you actually casted Hallowed Ground/Fire Walker to remove a proc from somebody? Because when I play them, the proc removal is only effective if you create an area that negates them, and even then others on your team need to know to stay in that area. And then ask yourself a question, what mod in your current loadout will you actually swap for this augment, which you will maybe use 2-3 times during a mission?

I don't want to sound like a jerk, bashing other people's ideas, but I seriously just don't see anyone using this at all, after trying it for 1-2 missions... And that's the problem with the majority of augments suggested by people (I see that too often in design council)