Tonkor Nerf and Launcher Buffs

[Sintag]

So with the advent of Bullet Jump, it's safe to say that Tonkor needs to have it's rocket jump removed.  Right?  Does anyone use that any more?  Not really.  It's a useless feature because so much of our arsenal eclipses it far and away.

As a buff, however, all explosives should pass through allies.  This includes Tonkor bombs, Ogris rockets, Penta bombs, Kulstar nades, Angstrum rockets, and any other bombs I can think of, shouldn't hit allies who are standing right in front of us. or, unless given Adhesive Blast, at all.  This will prevent teammates from standing in the way of the explosives user and trolling them that way.

 

Additionally, while my original intent was to give Tonkor self damage, steelblueskies suggested a far less brutal method of 'safety rounds'.  Rather than instagib the user if they land too close, bombs will only deal a flat 50 damage.  Problem is, if you're taking the blast at 50 damage, so are the enemies.  Basically, if a round hits you AND your enemies, everyone takes only 50 damage, while if a round only hits enemies, they take the entirety of the weapon's destructive power.

 

As always, let me know what you think, and credit again to steelblueskies for the 'safety rounds' idea, listed below.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Sintag
The 'safety rounds' thing steelblueskies put was the best cap idea I've seen, so I'm merging it with the initial post.

[KittyDarkling]

yes please to both, +1

[Xekrin]

21 minutes ago, Sintag said:

Does anyone use that any more?

I'm in serious doubt it was used before bullet jump.  I mean seriously, were there actually any ledges at all that someone said "Gosh, this map again?  Thank goodness I have my trusty nade jumpin tonkor along or else I'd never ever get up there!"

Highly doubtful, yet you will very likely get many people claiming they still use rocket jump, for giggles if nothing else.

Anyways, yeah these ideas have been tossed around for ... should I say years? months upon months at least.  Good luck with the thread though, hope it doesn't get locked!

[AdunSaveMe]

As a mechanic, self damage itself doesn't really fit. It's prelavent enough to be annoying but not important enough to affect playstyle or gameplay in general. It's just kinda there.

[Zavenosk]

People still use it?  I thought it was nuked pretty badly when they fixed the explosive auto headshot bug.  

[NativeKiller]

The only reason that Tonkor still has low self-damage isn't because of the "rocket jump".

 

It's because D.E doesn't want to go through the trouble of fumbling with game balance AND also risk enraging the "Tonkor lovers".

Edited September 10, 2016 by NativeKiller

[TrickshotMcGee]

39 minutes ago, Zezakh said:

People still use it?  I thought it was nuked pretty badly when they fixed the explosive auto headshot bug.

It's still one of the strongest weapons in the game, just like Synoid Simulor. The amount of damage removed with the headshot change didn't do almost anything to it, except make it difficult to keep Argon Scope in a build.

[steelblueskies]

vauban bounce pad mines still a thing too.

only results, even less use cases for launchers.

kul without perch is suicidal.

angstrums slow as fk and weaker for same result.

ogris, penta, secura penta,and on.

self damage with all of these needs to be capped BUT not the way you think.

if the round would harm the user, the damage cap applies to ALL affected targets for that round, including enemies.

tonkor round cap is 50 for the user? if user takes damage its 50 max for all enemies hit too.

call them safety rounds.

they already don't harm allies AT ALL, whereas rounds from alt fire for things like the quanta line CAN.

 

oh and you forgot adhesive blast exists when suggesting they all clip through allies.

one can use allies as mobile bomb carriers with sticky nades currently, as they don't harm allies or insta explode on contact when adhesive. full fuse timer.

[Dr.Evergreen]

+1

and frendly NPCs such as defense targets(both object and movable NPC), syndicate reinforcements,

even napalm damaging trace of Fomorian mod can be penetrated I think. they are VERY annoying when they are in front of me,

-especially the defense target and napalm trace, which has awkward hitbox and hit detection-, blocking nearby projectiles.

 

and...hope I will get some tweaks including ammo pool buff / projectile speed and arching range touch /

base proc and crit rebalance / introduce Prisma, Vandal, Wraith versions of explosives...

EXCEPT TONKOR. TONKOR IS THE ROOT OF EVIL.

Edited September 10, 2016 by Chantepleur

[amadeusgrim]

please leave the tonkor alone

 

[BiancaRoughfin]

The Tonkor got nerfed enough already. Leave it as it is. I keep asking my self how much crying will happen on the forums when a MR12+ launcher shows up.

[W3zeer]

4 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

The Tonkor got nerfed enough already. Leave it as it is. I keep asking my self how much crying will happen on the forums when a MR12+ launcher shows up.

Secura Penta? ;) Well, but noone uses it, because self-damage. I really like steelblueskies idea though, best I heared so far concerning the launcher issues :)

[Sintag]

16 hours ago, steelblueskies said:

-Trim-

self damage with all of these needs to be capped BUT not the way you think.

if the round would harm the user, the damage cap applies to ALL affected targets for that round, including enemies.

tonkor round cap is 50 for the user? if user takes damage its 50 max for all enemies hit too.

call them safety rounds.

they already don't harm allies AT ALL, whereas rounds from alt fire for things like the quanta line CAN.

 

oh and you forgot adhesive blast exists when suggesting they all clip through allies.

-Minor trim-

I can get behind the idea here, but it still makes Ogris suicidal if your team is either idiots or trolls.  As for Adhesive Blast, you're right on that one.  I forgot that was a thing.  My bad.

 

Still arguing that non-sticky bombs should clip through allies, though.  At least Adhesive gives an Ogris user time to book it before the rocket goes off in their face.

[(XBOX)Sneak Attack 65]

I still use the rocket jump with Zephyr. It's pretty fun bouncing off of grenades in mid air or sticking a grenade on an enemy's head and jumping on top of it.

[(PSN)official_79]

On 9/9/2016 at 8:15 PM, Sintag said:

...To replace this, I say self damage should fall into place with the Tonkor so as to make it consistent with other explosive weapons, as it poses next to no risk to the user...

No, definitely not. Tonkor's self damage should stay where it is and OTHER explosive weapons should adopt the damage cap. I dropped Kulstar as my most favored secondary the moment I picked it up due to this stupid and unnecessary mechanic.

Modded weapons are too powerful to have self damage uncapped. I cannot count the amount of times i've gotten obliterated by my kulstar the instant I pressed fire. Since I play solo this means I lose a percentage of my affinity AND risk losing the mission if it happens too many times.

Self damage ruins the experience, there was a reason D.Va from overwatch can no longer be killed by her ult.

[Kiyomaru-EN-]

On 10.9.2016 at 7:11 AM, steelblueskies said:

if the round would harm the user, the damage cap applies to ALL affected targets for that round, including enemies.

tonkor round cap is 50 for the user? if user takes damage its 50 max for all enemies hit too.

call them safety rounds.

 

I am not sure I can follow your train of thought there. Are you saying Tonkor should only deal 50damage max per hit to everything - enemies and yourself? Or only in scenarios where you would also hit yourself? If it's the former then I have to say, that I do not think that this idea will be implemented, since it makes almost no sense to have a weapon in the game which cannot even kill low-level enemies (level 1-15 for the sake of this argument), no matter how you mod the weapon.

I think that Tonkor's "grenade-jump" should be removed, since it is utterly useless and very annoying. Especially if you fire off a volley and it explodes right in your face due to lag or latency issues... I had that happen a lot to me which is one reason I don't use it as much, even though I like it.

[Sintag]

1 hour ago, Kiyomaru-EN- said:

I am not sure I can follow your train of thought there. Are you saying Tonkor should only deal 50damage max per hit to everything - enemies and yourself? Or only in scenarios where you would also hit yourself? If it's the former then I have to say, that I do not think that this idea will be implemented, since it makes almost no sense to have a weapon in the game which cannot even kill low-level enemies (level 1-15 for the sake of this argument), no matter how you mod the weapon.

I think that Tonkor's "grenade-jump" should be removed, since it is utterly useless and very annoying. Especially if you fire off a volley and it explodes right in your face due to lag or latency issues... I had that happen a lot to me which is one reason I don't use it as much, even though I like it.

I believe he means that, should the round hit you and enemies, it'll deal the 50 damage to everything, but if you're not cauht in the blast zone, it'll damage as normal.

[Sintag]

1 hour ago, (PS4)official_79 said:

No, definitely not. Tonkor's self damage should stay where it is and OTHER explosive weapons should adopt the damage cap. I dropped Kulstar as my most favored secondary the moment I picked it up due to this stupid and unnecessary mechanic.

Modded weapons are too powerful to have self damage uncapped. I cannot count the amount of times i've gotten obliterated by my kulstar the instant I pressed fire. Since I play solo this means I lose a percentage of my affinity AND risk losing the mission if it happens too many times.

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)official_79 said:

Self damage ruins the experience, there was a reason D.Va from overwatch can no longer be killed by her ult.

Then where's the risk?  Explosive weaponry should carry a risk of killing the user - That's the trade off for their immense area of effect power.  I'm sorry you can't just run up to a guy and spam Kulstar bombs in his face, but there's a semblance of risk reward to these things.  As for Kulstar nuking you?  Bullet jump away from the enemies or above them and try firing.  Why do I defend self damage and even encourage it in this case?

RISK MUST ALWAYS CARRY REWARD, AND THE TONKOR AS IT STANDS LACKS THAT RISK YET HAS THE HIGHEST REWARD OF ALL BOMB LAUNCHERS.

As a result, it feels way too overpowered, and just giving it the ability to do self damage and taking away it's now redundant rocket jump would bring the weapon back in line.  You also had no comment on the whole 'Non-adhesive bombs should not detonate if they hit your allies' thing.  Your thoughts on that?

 

EDIT: Except the problem with making this comparison, apart from the fact you're comparing apples to oranges, is the fact that D.va's ultimate has several means of being blocked.  Ice walls, Reinhardt sacrifices, standing behind a lamp post, you clearly have the means to evade the damn thing, and if it goes off in D.va's face, clearly either the D.va didn't think things through or the enemy team could anticipate the ult and block it.  The enemy has no means of stopping a nuke shooter going off in their faces, but explosives don't discriminate.

You're also failing to account for Junkrat, Pharah, and Zarya's own explosions dealing self damage (Albeit a tamer example than being requested to nerf a giant pink bunney mecha turned crazy out of control bomb.)

Edited September 12, 2016 by Sintag
As for D.va...

[(PSN)official_79]

25 minutes ago, Sintag said:

 

Then where's the risk?  Explosive weaponry should carry a risk of killing the user - That's the trade off for their immense area of effect power.  I'm sorry you can't just run up to a guy and spam Kulstar bombs in his face, but there's a semblance of risk reward to these things.  As for Kulstar nuking you?  Bullet jump away from the enemies or above them and try firing.  Why do I defend self damage and even encourage it in this case?

RISK MUST ALWAYS CARRY REWARD, AND THE TONKOR AS IT STANDS LACKS THAT RISK YET HAS THE HIGHEST REWARD OF ALL BOMB LAUNCHERS.

As a result, it feels way too overpowered, and just giving it the ability to do self damage and taking away it's now redundant rocket jump would bring the weapon back in line.  You also had no comment on the whole 'Non-adhesive bombs should not detonate if they hit your allies' thing.  Your thoughts on that?

 

EDIT: Except the problem with making this comparison, apart from the fact you're comparing apples to oranges, is the fact that D.va's ultimate has several means of being blocked.  Ice walls, Reinhardt sacrifices, standing behind a lamp post, you clearly have the means to evade the damn thing, and if it goes off in D.va's face, clearly either the D.va didn't think things through or the enemy team could anticipate the ult and block it.  The enemy has no means of stopping a nuke shooter going off in their faces, but explosives don't discriminate.

You're also failing to account for Junkrat, Pharah, and Zarya's own explosions dealing self damage (Albeit a tamer example than being requested to nerf a giant pink bunney mecha turned crazy out of control bomb.)

Risk must always carry reward? Where did you come up with such a thing? Do non explosive weapons carry the risk killing you instantly? Nah. Can your warframe experience physical strain from using heavy weapons too frequently? No. Is your warframe vulnerable to your focus power? After all some effect entire areas. You get the idea.

There does not always need to be risk, rather there must always be drawbacks to keep things balanced. Tonkor has a smaller magazine compared to the Penta, so increased damage is to be expected. Tonkor as it is now is perfectly balanced, it just received a nerf and it does not need another.

Junkrat and Pharah are not instantly destroyed with their regular weapons, they get penalized for being wreckless by taking a good chunk of their health, not all of it like when using the Kulstar. If you read my previous message a simple damage cap would be just fine, even a 50% total hp cap would be a whole lot better than instantly being deleted.

[Sintag]

Just now, (PS4)official_79 said:

Risk must always carry reward? Where did you come up with such a thing? Do non explosive weapons carry the risk killing you instantly? Nah. Can your warframe experience physical strain from using heavy weapons too frequently? No. Is your warframe vulnerable to your focus power? After all some effect entire areas. You get the idea.

There does not always need to be risk, rather there must always be drawbacks to keep things balanced. Tonkor has a smaller magazine compared to the Penta, so increased damage is to be expected. Tonkor as it is now is perfectly balanced, it just received a nerf and it does not need another.

Junkrat and Pharah are not instantly destroyed with their regular weapons, they get penalized for being wreckless by taking a good chunk of their health, not all of it like when using the Kulstar. If you read my previous message a simple damage cap would be just fine, even a 50% total hp cap would be a whole lot better than instantly being deleted.

No, but do non explosive weapons kill large groups of enemies instantly?  With few exceptions, no.  Do we suffer strain from using heavy weaponry too frequently?  No, but in more than a few cases it's stated that ONLY Tenno can use certain weapons or ONLY we are strong enough to use certain weaponry.  It's not that big a stretch to say we don't suffer strain because, put simply, what's heavy to regular humans is lightweight for Tenno.  Are we vulnerable to our own Focus?  I forget the name, but a certain upgrade in the Unairu tree would like a word with you.

 

Tonkor only got a nerf by technicality.  It got nerfed due to a bug fix.  Sure, Tonkor has stronger damage to make up for it's short mag capacity, BUT THIS ISN'T MY PROBLEM - I CAN ACCEPT THIS EASILY.  What does bug me is the extreme lack of self damage compared to every other launcher in the game.

 

Also, I just re-ran your post.  You only said it was too powerful to leave uncapped.  You did not suggest a cap should be implemented.  Besides, steelblueskies up there did a better job at that - If you're caught in the blast, the round itself deals only it's base damage to everything, enemies included, or only 50 damage.  On top of this, I suggested that explosives should no longer detonate on allies to make sure your team wasn't your cause of death, that you only had yourself to blame if a bomb went off right in your face.

 

End of the day, my point still stands.  EXPLOSIVES NEED TO HAVE A RISK TO COUNTER THEIR REWARD, AND TONKOR HAS TOO MUCH REWARD FOR TOO LITTLE RISK.

[(PSN)official_79]

1 minute ago, Sintag said:

No, but do non explosive weapons kill large groups of enemies instantly?  With few exceptions, no.  Do we suffer strain from using heavy weaponry too frequently?  No, but in more than a few cases it's stated that ONLY Tenno can use certain weapons or ONLY we are strong enough to use certain weaponry.  It's not that big a stretch to say we don't suffer strain because, put simply, what's heavy to regular humans is lightweight for Tenno.

Heavy melee weapons can quickly dispatch a group of enemies, plus my sancti tigris can easily cut through a group of enemies with little to no issue. Difference is sancti tigris is a hitscan weapon and doesnt need an extra amount of aim and precision to hit your target like the Tonkor requires you to. See? give and take. Balance.

If you've ever lifted weights, even the easiest weight for you to lift can leave you tired if given enough time. After all some weapons are indeed heavy to tenno, theres a reason why heavy weapons have a slow swing speed.

9 minutes ago, Sintag said:

 Are we vulnerable to our own Focus?  I forget the name, but a certain upgrade in the Unairu tree would like a word with you.

I believe thats the one that revives you but fucks up your energy and stuff, right? Anyway I meant the actual abilities. The SPECIAL BEAM CANNON!! doesnt hurt you, the radiation proc (or is it confusion?) doesnt effect you. The petrify (I think thats what one of them does) doesnt effect you. No risk yet all reward from the looks of it.

 

14 minutes ago, Sintag said:

Tonkor only got a nerf by technicality.  It got nerfed due to a bug fix.  Sure, Tonkor has stronger damage to make up for it's short mag capacity, BUT THIS ISN'T MY PROBLEM - I CAN ACCEPT THIS EASILY.  What does bug me is the extreme lack of self damage compared to every other launcher in the game.

 Exactly! this is why I want self damage to have a cap, it makes the whole experience a whole lot better! Instead of introducing a broken mechanic to the tonkor, remove it for all other weapons and leave a cap in its place.

[(XBOX)Twinna25]

Why not just restrict self damage on all explosive weapons to 500 damage at most? That way, you can survive one mistake barely, but you get easily punished for another. That fixes the issue with a lot of explosive weapons, and prevents the 'with friends like these' situation. 

[Sintag]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)official_79 said:

Heavy melee weapons can quickly dispatch a group of enemies, plus my sancti tigris can easily cut through a group of enemies with little to no issue. Difference is sancti tigris is a hitscan weapon and doesnt need an extra amount of aim and precision to hit your target like the Tonkor requires you to. See? give and take. Balance.

If you've ever lifted weights, even the easiest weight for you to lift can leave you tired if given enough time. After all some weapons are indeed heavy to tenno, theres a reason why heavy weapons have a slow swing speed.

I believe thats the one that revives you but fucks up your energy and stuff, right? Anyway I meant the actual abilities. The SPECIAL BEAM CANNON!! doesnt hurt you, the radiation proc (or is it confusion?) doesnt effect you. The petrify (I think thats what one of them does) doesnt effect you. No risk yet all reward from the looks of it.

 

 Exactly! this is why I want self damage to have a cap, it makes the whole experience a whole lot better! Instead of introducing a broken mechanic to the tonkor, remove it for all other weapons and leave a cap in its place.

1.  Yes, Heavy Blades do chop through hordes like it's a Dynasty Warriors game.  And the Sancti Tigris is a pretty nuts weapon, but it's overwhelming force it only in base damage, not dependant on critical hits, and generally, Syndicate Blast notwithstanding, it's force is only gonna be limited to one, maybe two targets before Mods, whereas Tonkor can smash entire groups to utter pieces.  Also, Tonkor has that silly laser going for it.  Where is that silly laser on other launchers?

2.  I have lifted, bro, and yeah, I will admit to repetitive motion strain.  Thing is, Warframes aren't exactly humans, are they?  We don't know to what extent of them is biological and what's mechanical.  The reason heavy weps carry such a slow speed could also be attributed to the sheer amount of mass.  Ever tried lifting a really, really long piece of wood?  It's not /that/ heavy, but you're still gonna have a hard time carrying the thing because so much of it's mass and weight isn't near your arms and is flopping all over the place.  Credited, heavy weaponry is solid, but the thing is, so much of the slowness is probably the need to build momentum.

3.  No, I think it's the one that does Corro.  I think the insta-rev one is in...Vazarin, I'd like to say?  Also, the reason your own Focus doesn't hit you or your allies is because they too can manifest Void energy.  You're essentially weaponizing the Void itself against your enemies, and...Trying to logic with the Void's involvement is like trying not to burn yourself after taking a dip in fryer oil.  Plus you have to jump through a metric ton of hoops to begin using Focus.

4.  It'd do a lot better than "HERE'S FIFTY THOUSAN' POINTSA DAMAGE RIGHT IN YO FACE" anyways for a quick cap to be implemented, but still penalize the user for being goddamn idiots with the bombs.  Still think bombs should pass through allies.  Unless they stick, but then you have a few seconds to get out of the way.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Sintag
I just realized that what began as a "Hey here's a nerf to Tonkor and buff to launchers" has turned into one part lore discussion and one part redesign of the idea itself. Hoo boy.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

On September 9, 2016 at 9:40 PM, Xekrin said:

I'm in serious doubt it was used before bullet jump.  I mean seriously, were there actually any ledges at all that someone said "Gosh, this map again?  Thank goodness I have my trusty nade jumpin tonkor along or else I'd never ever get up there!"

Highly doubtful, yet you will very likely get many people claiming they still use rocket jump, for giggles if nothing else.

Anyways, yeah these ideas have been tossed around for ... should I say years? months upon months at least.  Good luck with the thread though, hope it doesn't get locked!

Don't hate the rocket Jump, It was just something that was fun to use. Have you ever used Zephyr and the tonkor? It's basically flappy zephyr but you actually kill stuff. Every play Tf2? It's the same thing except the tonkor is neutered by only having two shots. If you miss any of your shots with the tonkor's poor accuracy (Compared to pentad's and other explosive weapon's perfect accuracy) You kinda screwed. 

Only people who hate the tonkor are the ones who never used it or gave it a chance. It's a balanced weapon now and doesn't deserve all the hate. 

5 hours ago, Sintag said:

End of the day, my point still stands.  EXPLOSIVES NEED TO HAVE A RISK TO COUNTER THEIR REWARD, AND TONKOR HAS TOO MUCH REWARD FOR TOO LITTLE RISK.

This would be true if this was a PvP based game. And while I would like to see you try and use the tonkor in conclave (Good luck!) The tonkor is already balanced with the self damage cap and the weapons poor accuracy. Most heavy weapons can't compare later in the game cause they become too risky to use or you can use warframes powers instead of explosive weapons without any risk. Last time Anti matter drop had any risk while it does a million or so damage to everything? Oops accidentally assassinated myself with blade-storm!!! Damn, cut my arm off with exalted blade. The other thing is, Enemy explosives weapons don't hurt them, And high level bombards hurt quite a bit.... And the really annoying ospreys that drop bombs everywhere? Their bombs don't hurt them either. Only time they can hurt each other is if they are irradiated. Tenno being the only faction that can actually hurt themselves is a bit odd when other factions use explosive weapons quite often. Ever see a corpus or grineer kill themselves with a grenade? I think every weapon should be tonkor-ed so that if you get hit in the blast radius, you get a small amount of damage dealt to you and then weapon specific effects. Like if you hit someone point blank with an ogris you got got launched backwards. Some people would have fun with it. 

[Sintag]

2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Don't hate the rocket Jump, It was just something that was fun to use. Have you ever used Zephyr and the tonkor? It's basically flappy zephyr but you actually kill stuff. Every play Tf2? It's the same thing except the tonkor is neutered by only having two shots. If you miss any of your shots with the tonkor's poor accuracy (Compared to pentad's and other explosive weapon's perfect accuracy) You kinda screwed. 

Only people who hate the tonkor are the ones who never used it or gave it a chance. It's a balanced weapon now and doesn't deserve all the hate. 

This would be true if this was a PvP based game. And while I would like to see you try and use the tonkor in conclave (Good luck!) The tonkor is already balanced with the self damage cap and the weapons poor accuracy. Most heavy weapons can't compare later in the game cause they become too risky to use or you can use warframes powers instead of explosive weapons without any risk. Last time Anti matter drop had any risk while it does a million or so damage to everything? Oops accidentally assassinated myself with blade-storm!!! Damn, cut my arm off with exalted blade. The other thing is, Enemy explosives weapons don't hurt them, And high level bombards hurt quite a bit.... And the really annoying ospreys that drop bombs everywhere? Their bombs don't hurt them either. Only time they can hurt each other is if they are irradiated. Tenno being the only faction that can actually hurt themselves is a bit odd when other factions use explosive weapons quite often. Ever see a corpus or grineer kill themselves with a grenade? I think every weapon should be tonkor-ed so that if you get hit in the blast radius, you get a small amount of damage dealt to you and then weapon specific effects. Like if you hit someone point blank with an ogris you got got launched backwards. Some people would have fun with it. 

It's also very annoying to be suddenly hurled into the air at high speed by accident.  Did Soldier's rockets ever hit him because they were explosive superballs?  No.  Tonkor got nerfed by way of a bug fix.  It's still the strongest nuke shooter out there.  As for enemies using bombs yet never killing themselves?  Sometimes, only gameplay mechanics can explain stuff.  Also, see the post by steelblueskies, his idea for the cap is impressive.

 

Also, is Ogris "balanced" because it can instagib you if Rhino is in front of you?