Yet again melee is overpowered

[bowiespoon]

You made this same thread earlier....

And you're not allowed to use the Megathread tag!

Edited September 13, 2016 by bowiespoon

[Bizzaro21]

welcome to the club

the problem i find with melee is the new stances (not sure if u got them on console yet or not) but if you did, u might wanna focus on heavy blades and hammers, they have the highest damage outputs AND stagger/knockdown with every hit, and anticipation doesnt do sh*t against weapons, it only stops CC from powers

pretty easy to handle: remove knockdown and stagger from high damage weapons, keep it on the lower damage ones, unf\ anticipation to work against weapon CC too

[rockscl]

why dont you chill out, your patch is outdated and you have been told about the incoming fixes at least 2 times already

Spoiler

inb4 DE triple nerfs melee because triple post asking for it

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Xx-Ribbium-xX said:

Oh sorry clearly you don't pl conclave to understand this so allow me to explain how melee in pvp works

1: you could fight a person with melee up close however because the melee user can stagger you and do more damage than you its not very smart being near one because you will die in a split second.

2: you could try and kill them at long range however as soon as a melee user (or any player) takes damage they run away and since people using melee are now faster with the sword alone mod they can escape at sonic speed making it impossible to shoot at them 

3: you could use a teammate as bait however the teammate will most likely die giving the melee user a kill and depending on how glitchy the combos are you might not even kill the melee user because of how the hit boxes are during the combos making this method about 60% effective 

also blocking with melee is stupidly effective so if the combo requires you to hold the block button then they damage you do will be reduced 

1-Well, yeah, Stagger is poor design choice on the part of DE, Melee NEEDS a CC to prevent anyone from doing an easy escape, solutions have been proposed to replace stagger.

2-Sure, like somebody with gun wouldn't run away too. Sword Alone mobility is a compensation for the animation lock, it was suggested in the past two options: increase melee mobility or increase melee tankyness, guess which one DE choose?

3-That's poor teamwork then. Glitchy animations have been mostly removed with the Conclave stances, you should have seen how Final Harbinger made S&S users almost inpervious to both ranged and melee damage, and sometimes even powers, due to buggy hitbox.

-Blocking? Effective? You clearly haven't played melee. Blocking is VERY lacking on most weapons and the one mod to make Blocking good has an impossible to meet criteria to activate.

[Nighttide77]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Xx-Ribbium-xX said:

Oh sorry clearly you don't pl conclave to understand this so allow me to explain how melee in pvp works

1: you could fight a person with melee up close however because the melee user can stagger you and do more damage than you its not very smart being near one because you will die in a split second.

2: you could try and kill them at long range however as soon as a melee user (or any player) takes damage they run away and since people using melee are now faster with the sword alone mod they can escape at sonic speed making it impossible to shoot at them 

also blocking with melee is stupidly effective so if the combo requires you to hold the block button then they damage you do will be reduced 

1) if you have the advantage of range with a gun, you're supposed to use it. The disadvantage of melee is that it cannot attack at range. Blocking only goes up to 60%, though consoles might be a few patches behind where PC channeled blocking has been nerfed to use up a lot of energy, again.

2) melee has to be a hit and run and/or ambush style of play. This isn't anything new in FPS games. Being able to chase and finish players isn't anything new, and the SA mod doesn't give so much it's impossible to chase.

Blocking doesn't benefit a melee user while they are attacking.

Try using a shotgun, decent auto, or explosives. Blocking nor channeled blocking stops AOE damage.

[TaylorsContraction]

My only issue is when I jump over players but somehow their melee weapons still stagger me in mid air followed by more staggers. Granted I don't have all the anti-stagger mods, but it's lame that bullet jumping over a guy blocking and spamming combos somehow hits an airborne target. Sure I will now bullet jump away from them, okay but my point still stands.

[Witchydragon]

11 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

1-Well, yeah, Stagger is poor design choice on the part of DE, Melee NEEDS a CC to prevent anyone from doing an easy escape, solutions have been proposed to replace stagger.

As long as melee is extremely easy to hit and kill with (compared to precision guns, ranged tracking, and having to hit center mass to make the most of shotgun spread), escaping from melee needs to be easy. Melee has no tools that can be utilized to varying degrees of effectiveness based on player skill to close gaps, so instead of the players being able to brute force their way to a kill by simply using melee better, you're asking for ways to limit other players to perform at that level. 

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, Witchydragon said:

As long as melee is extremely easy to hit and kill with (compared to precision guns, ranged tracking, and having to hit center mass to make the most of shotgun spread), escaping from melee needs to be easy. Melee has no tools that can be utilized to varying degrees of effectiveness based on player skill to close gaps, so instead of the players being able to brute force their way to a kill by simply using melee better, you're asking for ways to limit other players to perform at that level. 

Both modes could be reduced to "easy":

Melee: spam E

Gunplay: point&click

So it's a game we both could play.

Melee has a totally different set of skills: Gap closing, proper combo usage, bait&ambush tactics, spatial awareness (guns aren't affected by terrain, melee is, and as such some tiles are horrendous for melee, while guns perform the same regardless of terrain). That's on top requiring an average-to-tanky frame, which means the squishy-superjumper gunplayer meta doesn't apply.

I will tell you what happened: gunplayers became complacent that melee was never going to be effective, many gunplayers have adapted by now and can avoid and kill melee players just as they gundown other gunplayers, those who haven't adapted are the ones crying for nerfs. Let me tell you what happened last time DE listened to the "nerf it" crowd: Bladestorm became a useless waste of energy. Nice result, eh?

Sword&Shield's Last Herald was broken. "Nerf it" crowd predictably asked for nerf. People who actually use melee and know what to do suggested "Swap the combo animations and add a 'combo stopper' strike to the "bulletjump-like attack spam". DE listened to the second group, and Sword&Board is fine now. I hope these examples provide you enlightment on this subject.

[Witchydragon]

3 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Both modes could be reduced to "easy":

Melee: spam E

Gunplay: point&click

So it's a game we both could play.

Melee has a totally different set of skills: Gap closing, proper combo usage, bait&ambush tactics, spatial awareness (guns aren't affected by terrain, melee is, and as such some tiles are horrendous for melee, while guns perform the same regardless of terrain).

Except guns are affected by terrain. Having high ground gives player easier headshots and more protection, camera angles are much more important to keep track of, and walls play a big part in where/how people move to dodge. At this point you're just being ignorant and you literally repeat the same irrelevant points in every thread trying to push an agenda for grounded melee combos that have no place in a vertical shooter to become viable which is not going to happen in a good way. Whatever happened to being masters of both "blade and gun"? You just call every gun player a "point and clicker" and when they use air melee in conjunction with guns, melee is suddenly just another point and click mechanic. 

I've avoided making posts in response to your points for this long, but now it's just getting ridiculous. 

[Nazrethim]

1 minute ago, Witchydragon said:

Except guns are affected by terrain. Having high ground gives player easier headshots and more protection, camera angles are much more important to keep track of, and walls play a big part in where/how people move to dodge. At this point you're just being ignorant and you literally repeat the same irrelevant points in every thread trying to push an agenda for grounded melee combos that have no place in a vertical shooter to become viable which is not going to happen in a good way. Whatever happened to being masters of both "blade and gun"? You just call every gun player a "point and clicker" and when they use air melee in conjunction with guns, melee is suddenly just another point and click mechanic. 

I've avoided making posts in response to your points for this long, but now it's just getting ridiculous. 

I would gladly embrace actual aerial combat, like directional aerials and the return of wall attacks.

I pointed out "Melee spammer" is an oversimplification of melee combat, I know there's more in gunplay than just "point&click", term I actually began using in response to people calling me "Melee spammer" or "E-spam" when I killed them, and that was back when melee combos weren't viable and quickmelee was better than actual equiped melee combat, which contributed to the gun dominance. If you never see me using guns is because I made an oath, because I'm a crazy old fashioned person that gave his word to not touch guns until melee gets fixed (we're half way, yay! :D). Do you think I don't miss killing with a bow and some throwing knives? that I don't miss my good ol Tiberon?

Everyone here has an agenda, mine is focused on balance, and to keep the "nerf it" crowd in check.

[Witchydragon]

1 minute ago, Nazrethim said:

If you never see me using guns is because I made an oath, because I'm a crazy old fashioned person that gave his word to not touch guns until melee gets fixed (we're half way, yay! :D). Do you think I don't miss killing with a bow and some throwing knives? that I don't miss my good ol Tiberon?

I don't entirely disagree with everything else you've just said, but I find this bit ridiculous. You admit to having to experience with ranged weapons, and that you'll never use them. You're trying to make a point, it's not working. What makes it worse is that you have no qualms about using Shuriken and Bladestorm, a projectile ability that has a very tight homing characteristic that does a good chunk of ranged damage, and a very generous soft locked ability that makes you temporarily invincible, has an area of effect that is capable of hitting multiple targets, deals finisher damage, and leaves the enemy knocked down when the cast is finished. It may not instagib anymore, but it certainly doesn't work anything like melee. 

[Nazrethim]

5 minutes ago, Witchydragon said:

I don't entirely disagree with everything else you've just said, but I find this bit ridiculous. You admit to having to experience with ranged weapons, and that you'll never use them. You're trying to make a point, it's not working. What makes it worse is that you have no qualms about using Shuriken and Bladestorm, a projectile ability that has a very tight homing characteristic that does a good chunk of ranged damage, and a very generous soft locked ability that makes you temporarily invincible, has an area of effect that is capable of hitting multiple targets, deals finisher damage, and leaves the enemy knocked down when the cast is finished. It may not instagib anymore, but it certainly doesn't work anything like melee. 

I didn't say I will never use them, just until Melee combat is "fixed", which here means it's viable in both ground and aerial combat as guns are, ground part is mostly done. Granted, I haven't used ranged weaponry since U17, that's a dam long time, I try to keep myself in shape with self imposed challenges in PvE play (Arena mode vs the jet kitty flying girl helps a lot) but I know I'm going to s*ck when I eventually come back to the ranged weapons. :)

Shuriken may be a homig missile, but the tracking is very buggy, sometimes it tracks a target at long range doing sharp turns and sometimes it goes into walls, the ceiling, the floor, don't track anything at all or track a random at full health on the edge of the screen instead of the almost-dead target on your crosshair. BS was practically reversed to it's sh*tty first incarnation of Conclave 2.0 but with the added drawback of being able to miss, compare that to EB's spammable near-oneshot waves. Also, remember the oath was "guns". Powers aren't guns.

[Profit62]

So after D.E. saves melee,you want them to go backwards....you're insane and make no sense....the fix to melee is what brought alota people back to the game ...i personally made a new profile just for melee only.....just play more and become better....its the nikana prime it should be able to oneshot the enemy...try to be evasive ...don't just stand there and let them slice you inhalf...lol..good luck

[Profit62]

17 hours ago, JustOR1G1N said:

All I can see here: "I can't beat them! Nerf them please!"

Exactly...

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

On Tuesday, September 13, 2016 at 2:57 AM, (PS4)Xx-Ribbium-xX said:

blocking drains stamina and energy and is less effective 

remove stagger from all melee weapons apart from throwing melee 

reduce movement speed while channeling 

1) already drains energy if channeling block, if not it will still damage the melee user.

2)stagger already removed from spin attack. Now you want combo with no stagger too? Might as well erase all melee from conclave all together.

3)not gonna work. Theres already a mod that increased mobility & running speed while using full melee equipped.

Melee is cool now.

[C0d3blooded]

18 hours ago, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

1) already drains energy if channeling block, if not it will still damage the melee user.

2)stagger already removed from spin attack. Now you want combo with no stagger too? Might as well erase all melee from conclave all together.

3)not gonna work. Theres already a mod that increased mobility & running speed while using full melee equipped.

Melee is cool now.

Melee damage is ok as it is since it requires close combat vs. guns. HOWEVER, channelled blocking can be very frustrating to play against. Damage is very easily mitigated and I've had plenty of bullets come up as 0 damage. It's also frustrating having damage mitigated/ ignored mid-melee animation (somehow).

The channeling cost for melee can almost all together be ignored due to the recent energy regen buff. Players who go melee only can effectively channel an entire match. Tbh... energy regen should probably be frozen while channeling.

[bernad2218]

i have a clip where i empty a viper clip to a guy mid sword combo

 

and they all come up with 0 dmg

hooo boi was it frustrating

[Nazrethim]

5 hours ago, C0d3blooded said:

Melee damage is ok as it is since it requires close combat vs. guns. HOWEVER, channelled blocking can be very frustrating to play against. Damage is very easily mitigated and I've had plenty of bullets come up as 0 damage. It's also frustrating having damage mitigated/ ignored mid-melee animation (somehow).

The channeling cost for melee can almost all together be ignored due to the recent energy regen buff. Players who go melee only can effectively channel an entire match. Tbh... energy regen should probably be frozen while channeling.

You clearly don't use melee.

Channeled Blocking still drains a lot of energy, and Channel blocking protects from exactly the same normal blocking does: frontal attacks from regular guns and melee attacks, but not from AoEs like Explosives and doesn't protect from powers at all (except for Stand Ground which just reduces damage, but a good CC is able to break the block and call it a day)

Yes, recently we got an energy buff, but Martial Fury (which, if you don't know, is almost mandatory or straight mandatory for several weapons) got a -100% Channeling Efficniency drawback recently (while still keeping that stupid 'on hit gimmick'. Then you have Impenetrable Offense, which makes Blocking powerful... but requires Max Energy, something near impossible because you need to avoid the use of energy at all, be channeling (which you absolutely require to deal damage) or powers.

Can a melee player channel the entire match? yes, if he meassures the energy usage and when to engage, otherwise you run dry pretty fast. Think of it as ammo, except we don't have a dedicated pool and share it with powers.

 

About block while attacking, so far only certain weapons have that bug, yeah, it's a bug, but considering how useless is blocking without channeling or IO it isn't much of an issue. Oh, btw, I also found myself landing hits on people and dealing zero damage, didn't matter which weapon they used (gun or melee), so it's probably latency.

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

5 hours ago, C0d3blooded said:

Melee damage is ok as it is since it requires close combat vs. guns. HOWEVER, channelled blocking can be very frustrating to play against. Damage is very easily mitigated and I've had plenty of bullets come up as 0 damage. It's also frustrating having damage mitigated/ ignored mid-melee animation (somehow).

The channeling cost for melee can almost all together be ignored due to the recent energy regen buff. Players who go melee only can effectively channel an entire match. Tbh... energy regen should probably be frozen while channeling.

To put it simple, channel blocking means they use energy as health, which means its their energy that takes "damage" instead of their health.

Channel block can block almost anything, including abilities, but its not op, bcos it drains the energy super fast & U need energy to channel attack, block & sometimes U need to use abilities as well. 

Relying on melee too much makes one's gameplay predictable. Being predictable in conclave will only lead U to lose the match.

Edited September 15, 2016 by (PS4)ATreidezz

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

On 9/12/2016 at 2:57 PM, (PS4)Xx-Ribbium-xX said:

Literally getting 1 shot by nikana primes and ack dark daggers constantly.

getting staggered while I'm airborn

doing 1-3 damage while shooting at them with a burston prime 

solution:

add stamina bar so you can only melee a certain amount of times

 channeling melee drains 5 energy per second

blocking drains stamina and energy and is less effective 

remove stagger from all melee weapons apart from throwing melee 

reduce movement speed while channeling 

 

No melee is not overpowered. A good player using guns and abilities versus good melee players is a good match up. It's fun and can be challenging. But rarely will you be getting rekted. They are at a disadvantage in terms of always having to close the distance. They have to in order to get to you. So if your movement is good and you know how to use more than one type of a weapon, between ur movement and you're combo-ing it actually makes it hard for the melee player to match against you. If you can't manage that, then that's on you. If you run into a great melee player and die then that's just a couple players and not a big deal. If you find yourself constantly having trouble against melee players then it's not the melee, it's you. 

[C0d3blooded]

5 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

You clearly don't use melee.

Channeled Blocking still drains a lot of energy, and Channel blocking protects from exactly the same normal blocking does: frontal attacks from regular guns and melee attacks, but not from AoEs like Explosives and doesn't protect from powers at all (except for Stand Ground which just reduces damage, but a good CC is able to break the block and call it a day)

Yes, recently we got an energy buff, but Martial Fury (which, if you don't know, is almost mandatory or straight mandatory for several weapons) got a -100% Channeling Efficniency drawback recently (while still keeping that stupid 'on hit gimmick'. Then you have Impenetrable Offense, which makes Blocking powerful... but requires Max Energy, something near impossible because you need to avoid the use of energy at all, be channeling (which you absolutely require to deal damage) or powers.

Can a melee player channel the entire match? yes, if he meassures the energy usage and when to engage, otherwise you run dry pretty fast. Think of it as ammo, except we don't have a dedicated pool and share it with powers.

 

About block while attacking, so far only certain weapons have that bug, yeah, it's a bug, but considering how useless is blocking without channeling or IO it isn't much of an issue. Oh, btw, I also found myself landing hits on people and dealing zero damage, didn't matter which weapon they used (gun or melee), so it's probably latency.

5 hours ago, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

To put it simple, channel blocking means they use energy as health, which means its their energy that takes "damage" instead of their health.

Channel block can block almost anything, including abilities, but its not op, bcos it drains the energy super fast & U need energy to channel attack, block & sometimes U need to use abilities as well. 

Relying on melee too much makes one's gameplay predictable. Being predictable in conclave will only lead U to lose the match.

I don't main melee but haven't personally had problems with energy going melee only for multiple kills at a time. This is probably due to a combination of the energy regen + energy orb spawns. Most melee only users I've seen are constantly channeling in a match. I also favor using semi-auto guns so those may cause a slower drain than autos would (which can more consistently land shots).

I won't rule out 0 damage shots being the cause of lag, it's just been much more prevalent on the melee animations. 

 

[Cyandana]

I hate to say it, but melee is relatively awful compared to guns. Against good gun players it's more or less sneak attack or nothing - because they won't ever let you that close, and exclusively air melee attacks isn't gonna do ya much good.

[(PSN)Ali_AmmarKh]

On September 12, 2016 at 10:57 PM, (PS4)Xx-Ribbium-xX said:

Literally getting 1 shot by nikana primes and ack dark daggers constantly.

I thought you told me "Always bullet jump to avoid melee users". But you aren't doing that

[Heckzu]

On 9/15/2016 at 7:09 PM, Cyandana said:

I hate to say it, but melee is relatively awful compared to guns. Against good gun players it's more or less sneak attack or nothing - because they won't ever let you that close, and exclusively air melee attacks isn't gonna do ya much good.

Melee is Close Quarters Combat, which means it's for close quarters. Of course, if you're charging at a gun user out in the open, you're going to have a bad time.

Melee has an advantage over guns in small enclosed areas because it doesn't need to be aimed and (because melee channeling is broken) has lower Time-To-Kill than most full auto rifles.

[(PSN)Agent-P2468]

Melee weapons either have the problem of doing too much damage, being too fast, staggering at every hit, having a wide range for ground pound or none of the above and is utter rubbish. 

So my problem with conclave (I have had only a few hours of play when it comes to conclave) is how weapons are balanced. What makes the problem worse is the lag (could be my end) that could occur meaning that it is harder to land attacks. You either have a good weapon (jat katag: it loves to stun lock and own you in two hits) or a poor weapon (I have no examples of this) and if you are not informed to what thoes weapons are, you arr either going to realise that the hikou are amazing or that burston is going to get you killed and if you are like me, it is going to the arsenal to change that loadout because I can't be bothered with more, over and over, until you get the loadout that is just right.

BTW: who ever kept 1 hitting me with that dikou (correct me), that must take some skill?

Also, even if melee is sorted, you have the problem with the guns.

 

Edited November 2, 2016 by (PS4)Agent-P2468
Needed to focus more to the thread.