Dev Stream 80: Carrier Changes feedback thread [Megathread]

[bferret]

I think this a step in the right direction and then two off in another direction.  The first problem with the proposed solution is restricting it to sentinels.  Vacuum functionality needs to be available to all companions to level the playing field.  Otherwise the 90% + using Carrier today will still keep their kubrows and kavats on their ship.  You (DE) have invested the time in developing kubrows and kavats but they are not being used.  The other issue is splitting the functionality into 3 mods.  I can see it requiring 2 because obviously the players feels it's powerful enough to limit their companion choice, but requiring three mods is heavy handed.  We are not talking a function that directly affects combat... it is more in the quality of life column.  Also, both mods need to be available on the same companion so the current functionality isn't lost.  Again... you are making it cost more by requiring another mod slot, but it's a quality of life function.

[(XBOX)FISTO ROBOT0]

Yes, why does our super high tec space age vaccume suddenly break and not work as good? XD

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

Kubrows and kavats do not need a vacuum. I honestly don't think any companion needs a vacuum, but I won't complain about that change. I'm one of those weirdos who actually doesn't use Animal Instinct. The convenience stuff is overrated, in my opinion, and my forma investment goes towards damage. I encourage trying to play without Vacuum, Animal Instinct, or Retrieve for a few days, and forming your own opinion on how that is by your own experience. I've found plenty of new things once I've stopped listening to people, and just tested stuff myself.

[AlainLove]

Totally disappointed with the idea about split vacuum between 3 different mods. I really hope they re-think about it. Do the actual vacuum mod universal, that's all.

[45neo]

6 hours ago, (XB1)freakytiki3 said:

Such a divided community on such a ridiculously small topic. Vacuum is fairly outclassed by Wyrm's Crowd Dispersion, Djinn's Fatal Attraction, Shade's Ghost, Helio's Detect Vulnerability, even by Diriga's Arch Coil and Electro Pulse. In terms of usefulness Wyrm currently has no precept that allows him to compete with these in terms of crowd control or stealth.

IN fact all you have stated is true... However the ability to pick up resources from range is surprisingly useful. Many energy hungry builds get that energy orb when they need it most and when the squad has a nekros or an oberon being able to draw in health orbs can act as an emergency life line... The most useful thing though is how it cuts off a massive amount of time in picking up resources enemies have dropped before missions end. Every little bit counts.

[45neo]

I think if the are going to insist on splitting vacuum there should only be two categories,

1 Health, energy and ammo 

2 mods, resources, credits, blueprints, and other loot related drops.

[(XBOX)FISTO ROBOT0]

Can we get universal vaccume? Only if they make it suck more first...

[Troll_Logic]

31 minutes ago, 45neo said:

I think if the are going to insist on splitting vacuum there should only be two categories,

1 Health, energy and ammo 

2 mods, resources, credits, blueprints, and other loot related drops.

Why?

[Xavier]

TL;DR - DE has responded to Vacuum without addressing the source of the concerns. This solution is inferior to the current status quo.

I feel like there is a dissonance to this solution. Yes, it addresses the direct, literal concerns people were expressing about Vacuum, but at the same time it also acts in a manner that is antithetical to the motivations of the community when they were asking for changes to Vacuum.

From what I can see, DE saw an uprising of "we want Vacuum to be universal" and responded with a mentality of "OK. This is what the playerbase wants. How can we preserve our game balance and design goals while implementing this feature?" instead of asking why people wanted Vacuum to be universal and addressing the source of the concerns. As a community, it is readily apparent that the frustration with respect to Vacuum and Carrier was that it was considered the vastly superior default option, forcing out all alternatives with its universal, tangible benefits that make the core of the game easier and more efficient to play (or in some cases, grind) through. That is, the source of the concern was the implied lack of choice and variety with respect to companions.

The solution presented in the most recent Devstream seems to have two real consequences: a nerf to Carrier in terms of moving its most valuable precept to three different mods, and a further limitation for the builds of all other sentinels in terms of mods as well. So, let's recap here: The community wanted more companion variety and asked for it in the form of "DE pls, make Vacuum universal". DE responded by nerfing Carrier, nerfing the complexity of sentinel builds, and not extending the solution to Kavats or Kubrows which in turn simply extends the default-option-because-no-alternatives-compete mentality to sentinels instead of just Carrier. That sounds like failure to me.

To a certain extent, I understand where DE is coming from with this solution. They so desperately want to assuage the desires of the community while preserving their design goals and perceived identity for certain entities in the game. Vacuum is supposed to be Carrier's "thing", as has been expressed in several previous devstreams. And so, they do their best to preserve this implicit goal of meaningful decisions with respect to choosing which companion a tenno should select to accompany them. DE chooses to protect the established niche of each companion and companion type as much as they can. The counterargument to this, of course, is that it limits player freedom in a game that is supposed to be about feeling as powerful as possible. But even so, I don't think anyone would enjoy the content Warframe has to provide if everything was unlocked, we were all invincible, had infinite ammo, and one-shot everything with every weapon. There has to exist restrictions to engage the player and induce a feeling of accomplishment for completing a task.

So, an economic middle-ground must be reached. But the compromise presented here only emburdens the current mod system with *more* mods that are perceived as necessary and requisite, an outcome DE has explicitly wanted to avoid in other situations such as with multishot mods or Serration. I very strongly feel that this solution fails to address the concerns of the players while actively impeding DE's ability to carve new niches for interesting companions and companion builds. It is a compromise in which everyone loses. Please, DE. Please don't do this.

[98Octane]

15 hours ago, TheTundraTerror said:

Oh, I'm so sorry I don't find running in circles to be the most enthralling, engaging gameplay. I am so sick of this nonsense of people yelling "you're just lazy!" Hey, genius, get this! Drops can fall out of bounds and become impossible to pick up without vacuum! Finally get a Final Harbinger drop after farming it for 30 hours only for it to get stuck in the wall? Suck to be you!

If you, and DE, think the core gameplay is running across the floor like a Romba, than let's go back to the old Parkour 1.0 system because "bullet jumping makes people lazy! Having no stamina makes people so lazy!" I play games like Warframe for fun! The people who use the "laziness nonguement" are more trying to convince themselves via some kind of Gregorian chant.

totally agree, with same logic simulor and tonkor wud be changed too as most people dont aim them or any launcher type weapon, well may b penta 

Edited September 17, 2016 by 98Octane

[Troll_Logic]

3 hours ago, Airwolfen said:

*sigh*

Its the target that counts here.

Not sure why you're sighing.  You completely left context out of your messages then act annoyed when someone misunderstands you.

[Danjal777]

Did they even describe how they are broken up?  Is it broken up?  I have opinion either way as I have no idea what we are upset about yet.  Sounds like everyone is upset about change.

[Drazhar14]

As this has been posted many times, vacuum is considered a mandatory feature in this fast paced games. Running around to pick up every item ruins the flow of combat and isn't fun. It should be a default feature.

Now as recently announced, this mod will still be exclusive to sentinels, so there is still no reason to use kavats and kubrows. Not only that, but it is an overall nerf to sentinels since you now require 3 mod slots to get the full effect of vacuum... We want to be free to use any type of companion, not still be stuck with sentinels. And to make it worse all sentinels will essentially have less mod slots now and be overall nerfed. 

Please DE, please make vacuum a SINGLE mod that can be applied to ALL companions, including kavats and kubrows. 

[Steel_Will]

Making item vacuum available to all companions is a good idea. Making it innate to all warframes would be a better idea. Splitting it across three mods is a terrible idea. The fact is this ability is more than just a casual convenience, it makes the game better. 

[98Octane]

Well thing is very simple, now universal vacuum demand has been answered to , next someone will say 'heyyyyy  lets start a topic of universal scan or invi ' and then u wil hav those two also universal right?? Tbh that would be ridiculous, and someone said endgame viable sentinel (lmaoing at that content) if 89% is using carrier and also by doing sortie u can see for urself, most common one is carrier, wish i could check your ingame profile and carrier usage lol.

Now apart from keyboard war lets talk business, i dont mind going without carrier as when i started i used wrym and for long time i used that and then i got to carrier and i liked it so kept it as lets face it, am playing a game, it have to work as hard as i have to in my real life job i wont even play this (i wud rather go play clash of clans),  and carrier helps  a ton to gather stuff.

Making it universal wont solve the problem as i wud rather sacrifice sanctuary and striker to make space (hp/shield/coolant/shield restore for frame are essential so u have 4 more slot even if they make them 20slots each use forma and u r good to go

secondly when ever i see the laziness argument, i laugh at those people just as i laugh at people who thinks they r master race as they crossed the MR20 threshold. Convenience is not laziness, as with that logic, Simulor, helios etc are all lazy peoples items. and by that same logic, invisibilty from loki and ivara shall be removed as if u wanna be a ninja, be stealthy and not invisible (yes being invi is not stealth, doing sortie spy with rhino and no alarm is) 

and thirdly, even if i dont play this game that far in future (which is gonna hpn if things keeps on going down the wrong way), next time there will b a rant as djinn or prisma shade will be the most used sentinel and people will want their universal preciept.

also for people wanting vacuum on kubrow/kavats , no just fing no!! 

[45neo]

30 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

Why?

because it makes more sense than splitting vacuum into 3

[Troll_Logic]

4 hours ago, Demon.King said:

As I said, the devs clearly want Vacuum to still be a mod. So this caters to everyone.

I'd strongly disagree with that.

4 hours ago, Demon.King said:

those that refused to use vacuum just because it wasted Ammo/Health/Energy.

I disagree with that as well.  I read about people that complain about wasting ammo, health, and energy and how often does this really happen?  I'd say it doesn't.  Not to any appreciable amount.  Yes, I know about picking up a full energy orb when someone has 5 below full, but it isn't that big a deal.  It doesn't happen that often and it doesn't happen in any appreciable degree.

[Mak_Gohae]

1 hour ago, KesslerCOIL said:

  
[DE]Scott has been looking into the new player experience and this would be a great answer to it, because currently new players have to rush a Carrier before anything else if they want to progress at a reasonable pace. Sure, spliting Vacuum into 3 mods could fix this but, it would also come with more issues, Issues that a Universal Vacuum would not have and does not need.

another "new player" excuse, eh?

New players dont bullet twirl their way through the mission, new players dont even sprint some times, new players run around opening all lockers and breaking all containers.

When was the last time you played a low level mission and compensated for the new player and didnt ignore them to see what they were doing?

I do this all the time. Vac is the farthest thing from their minds. Not everyone is a min maxer.

[Demon.King]

4 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

I'd strongly disagree with that.

I disagree with that as well.  I read about people that complain about wasting ammo, health, and energy and how often does this really happen?  I'd say it doesn't.  Not to any appreciable amount.  Yes, I know about picking up a full energy orb when someone has 5 below full, but it isn't that big a deal.  It doesn't happen that often and it doesn't happen in any appreciable degree.

Don't take my post out of context, it was merged with absolutely no regard to their own rules that Feedback is NOT to be placed in General Discussion...

It was to this:

5 hours ago, Demon.King said:

If vacuum has to remain a mod, and people want customisation, I just thought, how about we make precept mod ranks actually count for something for once and make each level add a drop type to collect, rather than range.

That is:

R0 - Credits/Resources

R1 - Mods/Endo

R2 - Miscellaneous

R3 - Ammo

R4 - Health

R5 - Energy

 

Note that each level is additive, not exclusive. At R5 you would basically have the current R5 Vacuum.

Near full customisation (even more than the proposed system anyway), 0 drawbacks compared to current. Win Win?

 

Edited September 17, 2016 by Demon.King

[Troll_Logic]

10 minutes ago, 45neo said:

because it makes more sense than splitting vacuum into 3

But that's like saying "I'd rather have one hand cut off instead of both."  While true, the best option is to not cut off any hands.

[woah_dude]

don't stop at 3, make it 8! + hide it in sabotage caches in void or endless rotation C, preferabbly with chances of each close to Vengeful Revenant or old Xiphos, dilute it with pressure points and ammo mags as well please.

 

Or u could do something relatively sensible like make it a 15 meters universal mod/passive for frames/companions, but that would be too logical and we can't have none of that. 

[(XBOX)PacificJR]

I will be completely honest. They only want people to start using other sentinels, but they're going about it the wrong way. Instead of nurfing one sentinal, they should buff the rest to compete. Carrier is a go-to for farming recourses. Helios is a go-to for scans in codex. Shade could be better if you made his invisibility more commonly activated and lasted longer. Wyrm could proc status equivalent to it's equipped weapon when the crowd dispersion mod activates. I have no other idea for Diriga, Deathcube, or Djinn because I don't use them. However, I don't just use Carrier. If DE gives us a reason to use more than one sentinal, then they shouldn't nurf something that's a necessity for resources, health and survivability, but hey, that's just my opinion.

Edited September 17, 2016 by (XB1)PacificJR
Saw a spelling error

[Th3Spaceman]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/536wps/followup_video_to_the_vacuum_gif_i_posted/

 

Though I didn't make the video, it's definitely something I'd like to see how many others agree with.

Please, I just want to use dethcube.

Giving carrier such a good precept (Ammo conversion) would either make ammo conversion mods useless or not be good enough to make carrier worthwhile and would drop to 0% usage since people would likely just want to get rid of it after being forced to use it so long for its convenience. Instead, as a long term project, change other sentinel precepts to be useful in the late game like percent damage or be able to do some other thing but not have so much utility as something like vacuum.

 

Anyone else agrees that the mod should stay the same but be applicable to all sentinels/ kavats/ kubrows? Better yet, why not just make it a feature to the game.

 

Innate vacuum

[Troll_Logic]

14 minutes ago, Demon.King said:

Don't take my post out of context, it was merged with absolutely no regard to their own rules that Feedback is NOT to be placed in General Discussion...

It was to this:

Ahhhhhh.  Yeah, the thread is broken.  My bad.

I'd rather it stayed true universal like it is now, but if a change has to be made, your scale is the best of the bad solutions.

BTW, thanks for not going apepoop about a misunderstood post. :)

[KIREEK]

I don't like the change, it's like inflicting a self nerf, not to mention kubrows and kavats are not included.

Given the direction they are taking, it won't suprise me that down the line they implement 6 vaccum mods instead of 3 and then make them available for any pet, oh and add them as rare drops from hard to find enemies aswell.

My sugestion, make a universal vaccum mod, it will make gameplay more efficient and enjoyable for everyone, it will bring diversity to games (regarding the companion used) and you won't upset so many warframe players. It will actually be a reason to keep players invested into warframe.