Vacuum: Discussions Post Devstream #80

[Azrael]

On 9/19/2016 at 2:22 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

The proposed division into 3 types isn't final, and it is something that is being reconsidered (this shouldn't come as a huge surprise based on the amounts of conversations that occurred).

Thank you so much for listening to us! While I realize that it may happen this way, I am at least happy to see that you guys paid attention when we all went a little nuclear. While I'm a little confused that this was necessary, since numerous threads have been posted regarding universal vacuum (before the fateful announcement), it is nonetheless gratifying to feel listened to.

Hopefully we can arrive at something that works for everyone.

[Death_Master_]

I don't think splitting 90% used mod into 3 is a good idea unless you plan give us 2 more slots.

Because usage stats mean it is so much needed that people will sacrifice anything else to put those 3 mods... And sacrificing for nothing(as most will keep their 3-5forma carriers at main position but will be forced to put 2 more mods) won't make them happy. For them it will be like "I bought a shirt for 10 a year ago and now i'm forced to pay 20 more because shop wants it O.o".

To me vacuum on sentinel is like primed pressure point on melee or serration on main weapon - it's what makes it good enough to use at all(mandatory mod).

 

Edited September 21, 2016 by Death_Master_
typo fix

[Castle]

Man, this whole thing really is just one huge can of worms, ain't it?

[(PSN)Agent_Raiken]

I dont know if anyone said this yet but why not make a Vacuum Emblem? 

So each warframe and companion can all have 2 emblems each right? toss a vacuum on both a frame and a companion like a kubrow (cause putting it on a sentinel too would be redundant since they dont leave your side). I think this would give extra value, but not make completely necessary, to the chesa kubrow since its precept makes it regularly come back to you dropping off all the things it managed to pick up with the vacuum. With the other companions you'd have to run to them yourself which isn't too bad. OR just throw on a vacuum emblem on any ol' sentinel and continue the legacy of OG Carrier. 

Instead of having multiple types of vacuums id say have different tiers of them with added effects.

EXAMPLES
Vacuum Emblem 1 has a couple  meter range less than the current carrier but can be farmed from a low level mission type (excavation and spy?)
Vacuum Emblem 2 is the Vandal version and is the same as 1 but has a chance to steal extra credits for enemies and their corpses. (Corpus rare crate drop?)
Vacuum Emblem 3 is the Wraith version and is the same as 1 and 2 but has a chance to steal Health Orbs from enemies and their corpses. (Grineer rare crate drop?)
(or sortie rewards for 2 and 3)

Vacuum Emblem 4 is the Prime version and has the normal range of the current carrier and is dropped from Relics.

Vacuum Emblem 5 is the Prisma version and is same as 4  but has a bigger range for Energy and smaller range for ammo  and is sold by Baro for a truck load of ducats. (also has a pretty cool energy effect)

Edited September 21, 2016 by (PS4)Agent_Raiken

[Rolunde]

9 hours ago, Jonneh said:

Hi.

So, I think I can sum up the desire and objectives of "universal" vacuum and why these proposed changes don't come close.

1) It should be the default loot behavior in the game, for new players especially, and old without any mod slot, upgrade or anything else. 

Why? Well because the fun part of the game is running around stabbing and shooting things with sweet parkour moves. Worrying about and having to look around for mods and other drops. Seeing the stat at the end of the game telling you that you missed about 10 mods that someone else in the run managed to pick up is *horrible*. As a new player, I hated it and even now as a veteran I find it irritating.

2) Tying the function to your sentinel makes it a poor experience on harder content where they often die, and again for new players

What is the advantage of this? The disadvantages are obvious. You have no way to force a recovery your sent if it dies, which can be often.

3) We want to use any/all pet options, not be tied to carrier/"a sentinal" or anything else.

I'd love to use a kub/kav or anything else really, but it feels like the game wont let me. I hated mastering the other pets for the same reason. It detracted from my enjoyment of the game while I used all those other sents to 30, knowing full well I would *never* use them again in their current form. To some extent that is the warframe deal, you level crappy weapons you hate all the time and will never use, but this felt like I was doing it with one arm while I had to pick up the loot manually along the way.

 

I don't really see why the changes have to be so complex. Just make the loot come to us and let us get back to stabbing things with our kitty companions. =)

+1 to All of This.

Cheers!
~R~

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

OK, so first I'd like to apologise - I've said before that DE would go through with initial disastrous plan while ignoring all reason and playerbase complaints. I was wrong. 

Really though, I'd say what most people would agree with is one out of 3:

- Leaving things as is.

- Giving player universal innate vacuum that can be customised in gameplay options (vacuum mods, credits, endo, ammo, orbs, gameplay option). 

- making vacuum mod for sentinel, companion and warframe exilus, 3 mods.

What we don't want is splitting vacuum function. 1 mandatory mod is bad, but game is full of bandaids anyway. But 3 mandatory mods to replace one is a disaster. 

[oobacalacaboo]

This post on Reddit by u/FTC_Publik is the best solution for me.

[Emulad0or]

I don't get the split up part. Also, if the multishot change ever comes, won't the ammo mutation thing make the new Carrier go back to the most used companion?

Edited September 21, 2016 by Emulad0or

[yuagister]

On 9/20/2016 at 9:03 AM, devlkore said:

Where do I begin? First, let's not call what has been suggested in dev stream 80 "Universal Vacuum", as it's not at all. Let's also remember that people (a substantial amount of them) have been asking specifically for "Universal Vacuum".

I believe the ideal solution is as follows:

• All frames have innate vacuum ability akin to what Carrier has now.
• Consumables (ammo, health, energy, life support, etc.) are not vacuumed until their full value can be redeemed.
• Players can manually walk over pickups to override the above effect.
• Vacuuming energy is disabled while mag procced.
• Add an option to disable vacuum for the small minority who are against it.

Many ideas have been proposed for alternative Carrier features and Mag passives. There's no point in me bringing them up as even if Mag had no passive and Carrier fell to the bottom of the companion usage chart, the game would still feel better than it does now and companion diversity would increase substantially. Any problems this would create are smaller problems than the ones we have now (use Carrier or get left behind in most missions, use Carrier or miss out on loot you are near, use Carrier if your connection is janky, etc.).

Any mention of "balance" in this discussion is disingenuous as the game is already balanced around the 89% of people using Carrier already, or the game isn't balanced around them and that issue would need to be looked at regardless. As others have said, this issue really is about how the game feels. There are corridors in Warframe that have a split in the middle that without Carrier you have to literally run up and down both sides of to collect everything. 

I would really like to see someone at DE play the game as it is now (with and without Carrier) and then with the change suggested above tell me (and everyone) that it isn't straight up better.

This is an excellent Idea. Well said

[shyguyk]

12 minutes ago, Emulad0or said:

I don't get the split up part. Also, if the multishot change ever comes, won't the ammo mutation thing make the new Carrier go back to the most used companion?

I doubt they're going to make multishot a pseudo fire rate mod.

The fact that carrier is the most used only solidifies that people prefer farming to shooting.

[TenGaugeBoson]

They could just make carrier a pets pet.

Like a kubrow collar or sentinel appearance thing.

Remove everything but vacuum of coarse.

Or even make him like a weapon attachment . A little tiny key chain on your sword or whatever.

I actually like this idea more than any others I have read because Carrier would maintain his value on the market.

I would hate to be the guy who has to re code re animate an re do the entire thing though...can you imagine...

[ioniz]

After thinking about it for a while, this is the best solution I could think of:

An unlimited-use item (equipped in the gear section) that functions similarly to a dragon key. The item (vacuum/magnet) increases pickup radius while equipped, but like a dragon key, it has a drawback (maybe reduced mobility due to the added weight/nature of the effect). Too keep carrier relevant maybe the default precept, in place of vacuum, would remove the drawback of the item. In essence, carrier would actually carry the extra weight that the item adds to your warframe. Anyone who already owns a carrier/carrier prime, could receive an inbox message with the item attached (and a warning about its use). Anyone who doesn't own a carrier, could purchase the item from the market, either by itself or bundled with carrier. This solution could benefit everyone regardless of companion preference, and reward those who choose not to use it.

[Geraaltix]

Further replies made this post obsolete so I removed it.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Geraaltix

[Hyohakusha]

The three way split is going completely in the wrong direction. The fact that 90% of players use it is exactly the reason not to do this. The day it happens, carrier becomes useless and any builds people use become irrelevant. I and everyone else will simply suck it up, put all three on whatever sentinel we want, and add whatever defensive mods we can fit in. Instead of making sentinels more useful or adding variety, all of them are just going to be vacuums with the same exact build that just look a little different. It completely defeats what we all want, and that's very simple.

Vacuum [Carrier] becomes Vacuum [Companion] 

That's all that needs to happen, and its not difficult to do at all.

If the three way split happens, the market will break on that day. 90% of the player base will be looking for only those three mods. I really hope the number one requested QoL improvement isn't turned into a plat grab. I don't know if the player base is going to take something like that, especially with the endless stream of bugs, push backs on new content, death of end game and server connectivity issues going on.

Don't get me wrong, I love this game. But one thing that I've noticed recently is that a lot of things that are supposed to help only end up over complicating what is already a difficult game to pick up. Please don't let the most requested change be one of those.

[(PSN)daKillestShroomz]

I think you guys should give sentinels and kavats/kubrows an exilus slot and make vacuum an exilus mod. Wham! Problem solved people get to use whatever kind of pet they want, they don't have to use vacuum as exilus slots are an extra slot anyway. Exilus adaptors for kubrows and sentinels being bought with platinum.

Edit*

I mean sure, most people will use vacuum as their exilus mod, but most people are using carrier because they value the vacuum over any other pet. Which is why you guys are offering us more options for us to use different sentinels? You want to give us the option to vacuum with different sentinels. This way we can vacuum with everything if we want, even if people don't want vacuum they still get an extra super handy mod slot on their pets. It's so win-win I'm afraid that is the only reason it won't happen. Exilus for pets should be a thing happening sometime anyway yea? =)

If you must break it up into 3 parts, I guess I'm ok with that.

But this way you don't have to if you didn't want to.

Edited September 21, 2016 by (PS4)daKillestShroomz
Edit

[Demon.King]

If vacuum has to remain a mod, and people want customisation, I just thought, how about we make precept mod ranks actually count for something for once and make each level add a drop type to collect, rather than range.

That is:

R0 - Credits/Resources

R1 - Mods/Endo

R2 - Miscellaneous

R3 - Ammo

R4 - Health

R5 - Energy

 

Range would be 12m at all ranks (Same as current max)

Note that each level is additive, not exclusive. At R5 you would basically have the current R5 Vacuum.

Near full customisation (even more than the proposed system anyway), 0 drawbacks compared to current. Win Win?

Edited September 21, 2016 by Demon.King

[(PSN)thebatmantyler]

Remove the mod build it in the game this will be simple

[s0urj3sus]

Universal Vacuum would be a Carrier nerf.  It would go from the most used to the least used overnight.  The three mod system isn't the best solution, but it is the best solution for bringing an end to everyone's whining- without overhauling the sentinel system.  Maybe make all sent mods universal, then - if using them on another sent, instead of the original, treat it as a mod out of polarity.

[IAMPuddles]

DE, if u are going to split Vacuum into 3, i thinks its better not to change Vacuum at all. So that i can just use Carrier Prime and get all the health/energy orbs, credit, ammo, mods and resources. Whats the point of the so called 'Universal Vacuum' if its taking 3 mods slot to use?

[(PSN)Cephalon_Snow]

Why not have the companion's precepts innate like you did for the warframes?  This would open up many more possibilities for modding potential.

[Raven_Face]

I know I'm late to this discussion, but I figured out I should say my piece before it's too late.

I personally think that Vacuum was the utility that should never have existed in the first place. Look at what happened to the first iteration of Greedy Pull, and the playerbase reaction to its changes. Now we're stuck in the same rut, where players will be divided whether Vacuum will be changed or not. The real problem with Vacuum right now, is that it sprouted 3 issues that need to be addressed. It's making Carrier the mindless loot drone that most people would use for no other purpose, it invalidates the purpose of other companions entirely for them, and it's disruptive to the clients when host-pulled loot would be located in random spots, endangering them should they have no Carriers.

I don't think adding to the loot tug-of-war is going to solve this issue. Far from it. Players have been spoiled by Vacuum as the utility to the point of being 'entitledly lazy' and made all the more vocal for it. The lesser evil of the 2 choices (increased default pickup radius for all Warframes vs adding more sunction mods) would be the first one, but even should that choice be made, I will be saddened, because it's a change necessitated by collective lazyness.

If anyone is to look at my profile, they will see that my most used companion is Helios. Does that mean I want all companions to have damage amplification mechanics? NO. All I want is for all companions to be equally used and appreciated for their various utilities, instead of being eclipsed by Vacuum due to the increasing lazyness to GO AND PICK UP THEIR DROPS.

If Vacuum is untouchable, at least make sure that Interception and Defense mission drops don't stay unpicked when players decide to end the mission. That will give them all time to pick up their well deserved fruits of labor, and help the game in the longest run.

[NativeKiller]

 Vacuum should be an "Innate function of Warframes that could be toggled on/off via Arsenal options or in-game menus."

 

This game is a fast paced-horde shooter with hundreds, thousands of enemies being killed and dropping loot.

 

Therefore, such a QoL feature would only make sense.

 

Furthermore, not tying Vacuum to specific companions or companions at all, would give players greater freedom of choice regarding arsenal or companions.

 

You are welcome. :)

 

Edited September 22, 2016 by NativeKiller

[JalakBali]

On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Chipputer said:

 

 

There are very few situations where you're not being rushed down by groups of enemies. This is a horde shooter. Sure, I can pick up that mod at any time, but I'm not often going to have enough time to go back and pick it up without holding back the group and having angry players smashing their waypoint key repeatedly in an attempt to hint that I need to hurry up.

Now, ammo and orbs? I can grab those, as needed, without interrupting much of the flow of combat. As a matter of fact, picking those up is directly within the flow of my combat. I'm not one to appreciate casting Smite and having the game decide to vacuum up an entire 25 energy to replace the 7 that I just used. Ammo mutation? Sure, I can vacuum all of those up, but I can just as easily dash toward those little glowy lights and stomp all over them while using my movement  tools to dodge incoming enemy fire.

Please. Quit pretending to "analyze" the gameplay and offer arguments as to why it's "necessary." Aside from the Australia ping thing, most of the people claiming to offer an analysis often disregard the experiences of people who don't find it difficult to focus on shooting and noticing that pulsing blue orb on the ground over there. Your experience isn't universal. Don't present it as though it is.

I don't understand what you're trying to argue here other than "stop being a smartass, now watch as I be a smartass". You said not to use my "experience" as a universal example and then proceeded to use yours as such. You're also annoyed with vacuuming an energy orb of 25 energy when you yourself installed mods to make your power only spend 7 energy (you also obviously installed Vacuum yourself) so you, I assume, want energy orbs not be vacuumed?

 

You said you have no problem picking up ammo even though ammo (and orbs and credits) don't show on the mini map (if you have radar installed) meaning players have to scan the ground for these. Our only difference in position seems to be that you don't have a problem with picking up orbs and ammo while you wanted to vacuum mods and other drops (maybe? I guess you don't have a problem with DE splitting the mod into 3), while I'm advocating orbs and ammo drops be innate vacuum and the rest be mod based.

[VonDodo]

IF its split into 3 mods... then you have 3 new mandatory mods, while making other sentinels OP (do you expect people to choose between invisibility + vacumm X3 or ammo mutation + vacuum X3?)

You made 2 issues out of 1.

 

If you aplly them to pets you then have 1 oversued sentinel and 1 overused kavat (smeetha).

 

In order to make vacuum viable while granting diversity without destroying carrier de needs to:

1) make vacuum universal but not as powerful as carrier's vacuum

2) rebalance all sentinel/pets skills

3) make carrier keep its old functionality better than Others of at least a 30-50%

 

 

 

But mostly i wouldn t even lose time over changing a system that doesn t require much attention like MANY other issues (endgame).

[devlkore]

I don't know why people think Shade is going to become super OP. First of all its invisibility isn't all that reliable, second, it has a cool down and third, it breaks as soon as you attack. I do use Shade to give my Ivara an option to recharge her energy in battle, but it's far from game breaking. 

The solution to this whole debacle is really really simple:

True. 

Universal. 

Vacuum. 

Give frames the vacuum effect. This will let the movement system, which is one of the best and most unique things about this game, really shine. It should not be a mod or limited to any particular individual or class of companion. It should not be linked to Mastery Rank as new players need it the most. It should not be a Sigil as fashion should not be linked to mechanics or stats. Once true universal vacuum is implemented, the companions can and should be balanced around the idea that everyone always has it. Shade will get used, sure, but I will still rock my Diriga to shoot out cameras and sensor bars or lock down enemies when playing melee, or use Helios to make weak points and scan stuff. If after universal vacuum is added there are any companions being left behind, they should be buffed. Vacuum is simply too good an option to pass up for most people (89% apparently), so the only way to free the other companions is to have vacuum as a given. 

Also shout outs to the one guy saying "as a vet with 75 million credits I'm happy for them to split vacuum into 3 mods". GG, like new players don't exist.