Vacuum: Discussions Post Devstream #80

[Tizodd]

Best fix I've seen so far is innate area looting for all Warframes, with the option to turn it off either in Arsenal or the pause menu for people who prefer manual looting.  I don't see any reason why something as simple as looting needs to be tied to a companion or mod.

[Arkvold]

Carrier, and thus Vacuum, gets used for one simple, easily understood reason.

It's the only thing in the game that directly helps you ensure that you get all the loot you've earned from killing.

Period.

That's it.

That's all there is to it.  Sure, there's a few other small reasons, but by and large, that's why people use Carrier.

Ever notice the things that get used instead of Carrier?  Smeeta Kavat.  Chesa Kubrow.  Sahasa Kubrow.  What do these companions have in common?  Well, they either collect loot, like Carrier, or they generate extra loot.  Most people don't use other companions because it means potentially missing out on loot.

So then, if you want to get other companions used more, the solution is not to nerf vacuum, or nerf carrier.

The solution is to remove the possibility of them missing loot simply because they didn't use it.

In a world where you'd get all of your loot guaranteed, Carrier, and vacuum, would have no advantage over other companions.  You could give it a different precept (such as the ammo storage/mutation precept that I really really liked), and eliminate its connection to loot acquisition.  Give Mag a new passive (she wouldn't need her existing one), and give Chesa Kubrows a different function other than collecting loot for you as well (such as maybe being able to chase down and grab enemies and drag them back to you - kinda like what an Isolator Bursa does to you when it knocks you over and drags you.)

In this environment, companions would see use based on user preference.  Those farming rare resources might use the Smeeta.  Those who want more crits use the Adarza.  Those who want to remove armor from enemies without relying on repeated corrosive procs would use kavats in general.  Raksa would be used to keep shields high, Huras or Shade would be used by stealth afficionados.  Sunika would be used for those who want an attack dog, and Djinn (once it's given some actual durability) would be a great personal tank.

I could see Smeeta and Sahasa becoming very popular, but not as overwhelmingly popular as Carrier is now, especially given the nerf to Smeeta's item-generating Charm ability.  Adarza, in particular, would be probably be extremely popular on Sorties due to its ability to give the whole team vastly improved crit rate.  Nekros could actually use pets other than Carrier, since he doesn't have to spend time running around grabbing health and energy orbs to stay topped up while using Despoil and Shield of Shadows.  Hydroid, too, could safely use other pets without worrying about missing the loot that his tentacles tend to fling all over the place.  Valkyr could Hysteria her way through crowds without worrying about missing loot that drops from enemies behind her, or those who die on the edge of her path of destruction.  Frost could focus on defending the objective instead of leaving the bubble to go get his loot, and Ember could operate World of Fire without worrying about running around to collect loot from enemies who died while she was unaware of it.

So many warframes would benefit from this, in terms of sheer usability and quality-of-life.

[bl4ckhunter]

You aren't going to solve anything with this change but go ahead, personally i think that while it's completely hopeless, specially given that carrier is the thoughest, has the most damaging weapon (afaik) and the ammo mutation precept is extremely underrated specially when compared to the other crap sentinels have (one extra mod slot on the tonkor, gimme gimme.), the loss of the mod slots isn't quite THAT bad on carrier (seriously do you really NEED sanctuary? that thing's so weak that's useless, same goes for looter and striker), just, it's useless and it's a waste of time and manpower. it's not going to change a thing.  

[DevrexSin]

Ultimately, I would like universal vacuum as a passive on all warframe or pets, but if that's impossible, and the plan is to split up the vacuum mod into parts. I suggest, leaving the carrier's vacuum unchanged and creating new mods for the other sentinels or pets. This way, it would not nerf carrier's vacuum, and you're adding new functionally to the other sentinels.

[o.0-]

For me, the main need of Vacuum is grabbing rare items that have fallen off the map or get stuck out of reach somewhere.

What I hope is considered is having only Ammo, Health, Energy and Survival items drop on the actual maps, with everything else directly incorporated with the Rewards System that we see at the end of a match, so that we have a fair chance at attaining them.

That way Vacuum (in whatever form it remains) would be completely optional for the common Ammo, Health, Energy and Survival items.

[AlainLove]

Totally against the 3 mods of vacuum. I like this idea, simple but makes sense:

 

 

[CephalonShy]

Good. Good.

[Trentiel]

How about do both?

Increase the universal pick-up range to something much higher than "right under your feet" and then give us some companion mods that will suck up specific drops at a greater range.

Give pets the ability to pick up items for you. Like, immediately.

And hey, what about Chesa? I vote that you make them Bark Lasers. Godzilla dog could be the real shining jewel of this whole change.

EDIT - Have you thought about making Exp-share range also be Resource/Mod Drop-share range? So that if you're near other players, if they grab a mod then you grab it too?

Edited September 19, 2016 by Trentiel

[kitsu]

Give pickups the universal mag passive treatment, somewhere between mag passive, and archwing range. As for abilities for the sentinels, due to carriers massive range, and universal pickup, there really is no reason to switch, even giving other sentinels his power won't change how tanky carrier is and powerful weapon wise compared to the others. I think just having carriers power be applied to all sentinels would be most beneficial to have THAT range of pick up, while not having it gives the player archwing range. Then just give carrier another power, more befitting of something that carrier can do that isn't, universal game mechanic based.

 

Always remember, K.I.S.

Keep It Simple

Edited September 19, 2016 by kitsu

[AM-Bunny]

Ehh... this just feels like damage control to try and reduce people crying about it before it releases. I'm betting it will release in exactly the state that it was proposed.

[(PSN)Zadkhier]

I really don't want to see vacuum spit into 3 mods, or even 2. Mods slots are precious after all.

My biggest concern with this is that Kubrows and Kavats are not getting this at all, and ever since I've got them I've been wanting to use them all the time..but having to give up the utility carrier provides to use them always makes me feel like I'm missing up of a bunch of resources and mods. Not to mention how I feel a sudden drop in the pace of combat by having to slow down making sure I didn't leave anything behind.

Universal vacuum for all, don't forget about our dear cats and dogs!

[Leonix13]

Nerf vacuum or just delete it please... If you are going to keep it a mod then it's a pointless change as most companion mod slots are full.

[Jeahanne]

Personally, I think the tone of this topic is leading to the fact that Sentinels in general need looking at. Aside from Carrier and Shade (and honestly, if I'm using a companion for stealth I prefer a Huras Kubrow anyway), most other sentinels don't see a lot of use. Djinn, Deth Cube, Helios, and Wyrm could all use some tweaks to better stand out against the newer companions. This is especially true for Deth Cube and Djinn in terms of competing against other sentinels, even more so as sentinels over the years seem to be leaning towards utility over damage. Deth Cube in particular was built around damage dealing, but his "More Dakka!!" mentality hasn't stood up well over time.

I just think that while we're focused on one of the core mechanics of a Sentinel, it might be time to look at the rest of them too.

[MariAnnette]

5 minutes ago, Arkvold said:

Carrier, and thus Vacuum, gets used for one simple, easily understood reason.

It's the only thing in the game that directly helps you ensure that you get all the loot you've earned from killing.

Period.

That's it.

That's all there is to it.  Sure, there's a few other small reasons, but by and large, that's why people use Carrier.

Ever notice the things that get used instead of Carrier?  Smeeta Kavat.  Chesa Kubrow.  Sahasa Kubrow.  What do these companions have in common?  Well, they either collect loot, like Carrier, or they generate extra loot.  Most people don't use other companions because it means potentially missing out on loot.

So then, if you want to get other companions used more, the solution is not to nerf vacuum, or nerf carrier.

The solution is to remove the possibility of them missing loot simply because they didn't use it.

In a world where you'd get all of your loot guaranteed, Carrier, and vacuum, would have no advantage over other companions.  You could give it a different precept (such as the ammo storage/mutation precept that I really really liked), and eliminate its connection to loot acquisition.  Give Mag a new passive (she wouldn't need her existing one), and give Chesa Kubrows a different function other than collecting loot for you as well (such as maybe being able to chase down and grab enemies and drag them back to you - kinda like what an Isolator Bursa does to you when it knocks you over and drags you.)

In this environment, companions would see use based on user preference.  Those farming rare resources might use the Smeeta.  Those who want more crits use the Adarza.  Those who want to remove armor from enemies without relying on repeated corrosive procs would use kavats in general.  Raksa would be used to keep shields high, Huras or Shade would be used by stealth afficionados.  Sunika would be used for those who want an attack dog, and Djinn (once it's given some actual durability) would be a great personal tank.

I could see Smeeta and Sahasa becoming very popular, but not as overwhelmingly popular as Carrier is now, especially given the nerf to Smeeta's item-generating Charm ability.  Adarza, in particular, would be probably be extremely popular on Sorties due to its ability to give the whole team vastly improved crit rate.  Nekros could actually use pets other than Carrier, since he doesn't have to spend time running around grabbing health and energy orbs to stay topped up while using Despoil and Shield of Shadows.  Hydroid, too, could safely use other pets without worrying about missing the loot that his tentacles tend to fling all over the place.  Valkyr could Hysteria her way through crowds without worrying about missing loot that drops from enemies behind her, or those who die on the edge of her path of destruction.  Frost could focus on defending the objective instead of leaving the bubble to go get his loot, and Ember could operate World of Fire without worrying about running around to collect loot from enemies who died while she was unaware of it.

So many warframes would benefit from this, in terms of sheer usability and quality-of-life.

I read this over and I have to agree. This would be one of the best solutions to the vacuum debate and would make other companions viable in game.

[S0V3REiGN]

4 minutes ago, AM-Bunny said:

Ehh... this just feels like damage control to try and reduce people crying about it before it releases. I'm betting it will release in exactly the state that it was proposed.

What are you talking about? The myriad of changes that have come from the hundreds of pages of feedback that we have filled up after warframes reworks isn't good enough proof for you? /sarcasm

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

Thank you for the quick reply.  Please don't split vacuum.  Please make it innate to warframes with the ability to turn it off in the options.

Why not just try a big change for a week and see what the data looks like?

[tifanator]

Two things:

1. Please do not break Vacuum up into 3 different variants. I obviously don't know what those 3 variants will entail, but I feel like this could wind up just being a nerf. People will still feel obligated to use all 3 variants to get all the loot they were getting before. Using the Vacuum mods will be just as much of a "necessity" as it was before. 

2. Whatever changes are made to Vacuum, please do not limit them to Sentinels. The term "Universal Vacuum" means Universal, not Universal-for-Sentinels. Limiting the use to Sentinels will, of course, result in a more even spread of Sentinels used, but still leaves Kubrows and Kavats in the dust. I don't have the data that you guys do, but I would wager that some Kubrow breeds are towards the bottom of the Most-Used-Companions list. 

Solution: Remove Vacuum as a mod completely. Implementing a "Universal Vacuum" means giving all Warframes an innate Vacuum effect. This way, we can use whatever Companion we wish and don't have to waste time scrambling for all the loot on the ground. In a fast-paced game like Warframe where you have a hundred things happening at once, picking up energy/ammo/loot should be an afterthought, not something that necessitates a certain type of companion, or even a mod slot. 

[Pendragon1951]

To be honest I think DE and you all are making this really more complicated than it needs to be, the easiest solution would be to just give all the Sentinels the Vacuum mod, this way it gives the players more options as to which Sentinel to use instead of being, practically speaking,  locked into using just Carrier. I think it would be a waste of time and resources to over complicate a problem by splitting up the mod in anyway, just simply give the current mod to all Sentinels no muss no fuss.  

[Gentrash]

I'm fine with it staying as a mod, but please don't nerf it or split it up.

Vacuum saves tons of resources and mods from going over the edge of a level.

I really don't understand why splitting  it up was even considered . 

[OniDax]

Honestly, Vacuum just needs to be a passive for all Warframes. That's just how picking up stuff should work. That's all I have to say about that.

As for Carrier, in place of Vacuum, give him the ability to hold a substantial amount of bonus maximum ammo for your primary and secondary weapons. I'm talking something like 2x maximum ammo. Carrier could also pick up unused health and/or energy orbs, and replenish the player's health and/or energy when the player drops below a certain amount of health and/or energy. These two functionalities would be sufficient enough to replace Vacuum. And that way, Carrier's actually carrying something.

Edited September 19, 2016 by AntoineFlemming

[Zoracraft]

Why must it be a mod at all? This seems like something game settings should handle. You should incentivize companions through their abilities, not through something that is borderline integral to the game. Making it a setting would also let people disable and re enable it mid mission, if they so choose, for reasons such as to prevent energy waste when carrier picks up energy when you are using a toggle ability.

I'm fine with splitting what vacuum does up, that way players can pick and choose, but it shouldnt gobble up the already somewhat packed sentinel slots.

[(XBOX)RVN World News]

Thank god the splitting into three mods ins't final. You guys would do well to Nyx it all together & just put innate sucking on all sentinels.

[Stormdragon]

Dunno, adding universal vacuum doesn't fix anything imo.

Carrier prime is the tankiest swntinel, and turning him into an actual ammo carrier (possibly even with ammo mutation) will keep him as the best choice over other sentinels.

And honestly, even tough I like using one of my kubrows, I  see no reason to change sentinels for a pet with health decay and loyalty meter, so I guess companions need way more than vacuum to be able to compete with carrier sentinels.

does universal vacuum help? Yes.

Is it enough to open more variety? No, imo.

 

"Be clear about the goals" And please do not split the dream vacuum

 

Edited September 19, 2016 by -----LegioN-----
Fixed some typos

[Jeahanne]

You know, I kind of wish Carrier had something more unique as an ability. Like make it be able to carry something extra from your Gear Menu, or maybe be able to interact with it like an NPC and trade off for another weapon you select it to carry before a mission.

[Ironelle]

Right now due to red crits and other utilities that Kavats offer, I do not see myself using sentinels too much, even with the proposed change unless I am aggressively trying to farm a droppable resource (Vauban Prime and Oxium comes to mind).  Were I a newer player I might see it differently though, most resources are not an issue for me.

I am starting to get tired of running back to get void reactant, but my understanding is that vacuum does not affect that item currently (as intended).