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Vacuum: Discussions Post Devstream #80


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Loot collection at reasonable range should be automatic and innate. We're here to be space ninjas - let us focus on that. Having to step on every square foot of the map to get ammo, energy, credits, or rare crate rewards detracts from the experience of actually playing the game (and leaves more than a few of us quite motion sick!). That's why players are so fixated on vacuum - it lets us get on with it!

So remove it. Make the effects of vacuum an automatic and universal passive on every frame. 

Edited by pauli133
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I'm going to link my first response here, and merely reiterate: the simplest solution to this problem is also the best solution, by far.  The point of a "universal vacuum" is that no one actually wants to think about it when equipping a companion.  It is a feature that noticeably enhances gameplay.  It should not be three different mods that people will have to make room for on their sentinels.  It shouldn't even be a mod.  It should just be there, working.

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I'm on board with this 100% percent. The division of Dyson into 3 mods is:

1. Going to allow us to install them on every sentinel. Finally!

2. Its going to give us a reason to dumb forma in sentinels, or at least me. 

3. Its going to give us the liberty of choosing to farm for everything or a specific thing. I'm guessing (like the boosters) the split into 3 is for Ammo, Resources, and Credits vacuums.  

4. Lastly...And its a looooooooooooong shot. Why not let us equip both a sentinel and an animal companion? They're really two different things, where one is geared for dps, and the other for utility. Just a thought. 

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Let's start by getting it out of the way: the playerbase won't stand for the current proposal. It does not address any of the problems UniVac supporters want fixed. On Friday /r/Warframe saw several posts about this, one netting 1900 upvotes.

  1. Give Warframes an innate 5m Vacuum radius.
    1. Mag's passive is that she has a 10m Vacuum radius when bullet jumping.
  2. Change the current Carrier Vacuum mod to be for all Sentinels. Sentinel vacuum should override or extend the player's own Vacuum radius to 12m since sentinels stick to the player.
    1. Carrier gets a rework as an ammo-holder and ammo-converter as planned.
    2. Carrier could additionally get a precept that lets him hold data masses/energy cells for you, so you can carry these items while using your primary.
  3. Add a new Kubrow Vacuum mod, Fetch. This provides a 5m pickup range because Kubrows are free to roam around the map and can cover their own ground.
    1. Chesa Kubrows keep their Retrieve mod, which directs them to actively hunt down items and break open containers. Different levels of Retrieve change the radius that Chesas will look for items (currently it isn't clear what leveling this mod even does).
  4. Add a new Kavat Vacuum mod, Gift. This provides a 2.5m pickup range because Kavats tend to be more loosely tethered than Kubrows and will wander more, covering more ground. Kavats are already more utility-oriented than Kubrows - giving them the same pickup radius would make Kubrows completely inferior when compared to Smeetas.

For reference, Vacuum is currently 10-12 meters.

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In my opinion, both splitting mod into 3 parts and making Vacuum an universal mod are not a really good ideas.

With first option, we getting either 3 slots used by these mods, which will lower the efficient of Sentinels; either 1-2 slots used by them, which will lower amount of pickups and increase amount of lost pickups (glitched, fell in a pit, etc.). Lost slots either way.

With second option we are getting another "must-use-mod", like Serration... Yeah, that's worse than the first option, we, at least, had a choice there.

Vacuum, again, in my opinion, should be a passive ability of every Sentinel. That will make them more useful, which is needed because of kubrows and kavats.

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7 minutes ago, OverlordMcGeek said:

So...who became a tenno agent? Can't make it out with his head covering up some of the letters(the writing is slanted).

I can only see the word Initial followed by what seems to be an arrow or a blank space. Maybe its a quest dialog where you're the Tenno agent. 

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)Regiampiero said:

I'm on board with this 100% percent. The division of Dyson into 3 mods is:

1. Going to allow us to install them on every sentinel. Finally!

2. Its going to give us a reason to dumb forma in sentinels, or at least me. 

3. Its going to give us the liberty of choosing to farm for everything or a specific thing. I'm guessing (like the boosters) the split into 3 is for Ammo, Resources, and Credits vacuums.  

4. Lastly...And its a looooooooooooong shot. Why not let us equip both a sentinel and an animal companion? They're really two different things, where one is geared for dps, and the other for utility. Just a thought. 

why does it even have to be three mods, that's just over thinking it, why not just give the vacuum mod to all sentinels?

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3 minutes ago, Pendragon1951 said:

why does it even have to be three mods, that's just over thinking it, why not just give the vacuum mod to all sentinels?

It makes sense given that Sentinels have 2 more slots than frames and weapons, not counting auras and stuff. 

Edited by (PS4)Regiampiero
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Step 1. Give Carrier the proposed Ammo boost and/or ammo mutation precept (or a resource/credit doubler would be nice as a precept)

Step 2. Give ALL WARFRAMES an inherent(passive) pickup range similar to the current Vacuum Mod.

Step 3. Add a configuration option to turn this off in the settings (for you nay sayers) 

Step 4 ?????

PROFIT

 

If you guys aren't into that. Make Vacuum mod equippable on all sentinels and pets. DO NOT split into 3 mods. 

Edited by 3thereal
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In response to the potential change of Vaccum, this is a concept I've got based on rounding up current posts and what I had in mind (they're in this Spoiler bag):

Spoiler

-Keep the original Vaccum precept for Carrier, but it cannot be used alongside the new precept at the same time.

Expected outcome: Carrier can choose to have an ammo conversion precept and use the alternative Vaccums in lieu of it's default Vaccum as it cannot use that and the ammo conversion precept simultaneously. The 'mod slot extension pack' would allow Sentinels to retain their combat functionality and make use of the less combat-specific precepts.

-There will be a Vaccum mod for everything (one for ammo, energy, health, resources, endo, affinity), and transmuting them together will yield combined variants depending on how many Vaccum mods you tossed in (i.e: energy energy health resources would become one mod instead of four separate) instead of the RNG you'd expect. Combining them differently would be an interesting aspect to explore, and could include other mods (health + shields = Vigor). The transmutation system could be overhauled to provide more predictable results with certain mods (such as elements + status, elements + crit, ROF + crit), but could have Void Traces thrown into the price, or else it won't be as predictable.

Expected outcome: Bias towards ammo/resources/endo/affinity combination and/or energy/health/endo/affinity, among "...How many more?" - Grineer on the Solar Rail comms.

-Design a sort of 'extension lead' which would have three to four slots which would allow for a limited variety of mods which would be mounted either like a Forma, Mod, or Catalyst/Reactor. This can also be applied to weapons, opening them up for unorthodox setups (i.e: Ignis with hoover alt-fire). 

Expected outcome: Unknown and obvious at the same time. I don't know what can happen.

-Furthermore, Sentinels themselves have serious issues with staying functional in the battlefield. Perhaps adding a 'dead state' to them where they lie on the ground where you can sacrifice resources, credits, affinity or something to get it functioning ('reconstruction' replaces 'Regen', adds a Defense minigame to missions), and making their weapons feasible against anything over level 10 could help.

Expected outcome: Sentinel combat efficiency made viable alongside other companions.

-Speaking of that last thing, the introduced element would help contrast to the other pets, which merely have to be injected with stabilizers that cost a lot of credits. Would also like a means to manufacture those things ourselves, or a serum that would be less effective but could be one we can build ourselves out of those 10s of Frostleaf or something we got.

Expected outcome: Alternative, less expensive source of 'food' to maintain pets.

Other thought for consideration: Ability to hand over those 'Endo Sculptures' and the plants we've gathered (which we would make pots for to plant on the Orbiter) to our Clan for Dojo decorating? Will we ever cut trees for the wood used in the Sybaris and the Tigris' stocks?

Expected outcome: Melee a tree for wood to make weapon, Bo 'wood' skin, varieties of wood as resources. More trees and variants of Earth tilesets with different wildlife.

 

Edited by Koldraxon-732
Hotfix 1: Adjusted mention of 'Mod space extender' in the wrong spot. Hotfix 2: The spoilers here hide nothing but thoughts. I highly recommend you, all of you, skim through these.
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3 minutes ago, Pendragon1951 said:

why does it even have to be three mods, that's just over thinking it, why not just give the vacuum mod to all sentinels?

or even better...added as a passive to companions.

why should i be stuck with sentinels or currently a carrier just to get my damn drops.....all companions should have the current vaccumme as a passive, in addition to whatever they have that makes each companion special....obviously carrier WILL need something new to compensate....like ammo regen :P

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3 hours ago, AM-Bunny said:

Ehh... this just feels like damage control to try and reduce people crying about it before it releases. I'm betting it will release in exactly the state that it was proposed.

Well i hope everyone's been keeping their pitchforks sharp and their torches well oiled then. (just joking)

on a serious note if this is for damage control then it's absolutely pointless. 

Edited by bl4ckhunter
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6 minutes ago, (PS4)RusStarik said:

In my opinion, both splitting mod into 3 parts and making Vacuum an universal mod are not a really good ideas.

With first option, we getting either 3 slots used by these mods, which will lower the efficient of Sentinels; either 1-2 slots used by them, which will lower amount of pickups and increase amount of lost pickups (glitched, fell in a pit, etc.). Lost slots either way.

With second option we are getting another "must-use-mod", like Serration... Yeah, that's worse than the first option, we, at least, had a choice there.

Vacuum, again, in my opinion, should be a passive ability of every Sentinel. That will make them more useful, which is needed because of kubrows and kavats.

There's no such thing as a must use mod, the only reason you want to use it its because its good. Not saying I wouldn't prefer it being a passive ability, but on a sentinel its not a real big deal imo given you have 10 mod slots. 

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Just do a "vacuum seintinal" that sucks everything up. Make carrier what it is a "carrier" ( different load outs, ammo mutations esc esc ) And then have a passive for every sentinel (strength buffs, status buff, esc esc.  Use your imagination after that. 

Edited by (XB1)FCastle74
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So, here's what I don't understand. I don't understand why. What I would love, more than anything, is for DE to be frank and honest about their reasoning behind innate, universal vacuum being off the table. This is obviously a big deal, and most of all, the playerbase doesn't understand. I don't understand. I've been a professional game developer. I've been in your shoes, and had to make choices that seemed bad to the playerbase (hell, I've made things that WERE bad for the playerbase.) I'm normally pretty savvy about these things. The only explanation I can think of is that you don't want the inflation that would come from making resource pickups easier. Even assuming that's the only problem, I STILL don't see the justification. The amount of good will you'd curry would blow the inflation from slightly faster level clears and greater resource pickups out of the water.

So more than any of these other solutions (I agree that 1 mod would be better than 3, I agree that forcing sentinel use by forcing vacuum to be sentinel-only is the wrong solution, and I agree that universal vacuum is the only RIGHT solution,) more than any of those, I want to understand why. I would love to hear a serious, brass-tacks explanation of WHY you don't want to make universal vacuum. Is it an engineering problem? Is it an economic problem? Do you want to balance the usage of sentinels against pets? Your userbase is clear on what they feel the problem is, you disagree. Please, just tell us why.

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1 hour ago, Danjal777 said:

Consider getting rid of pickups, running around to pick up items in a firefight is silly.  What if...you just got the items when you kill enemies, open cabinets, and break boxes?

This can't be. What will happen with nekros and hydroid and other related drop/loot skills (mag, mirage, ...)

Easy solution:

- Making warframes base pickup range increase by x2 (ex: 1meter x2 = 2m)

- Warframe base pickup become x2 more when kubrow or kavat equiped (base x2 + x2 from pets = ex: 1meter x2 = 2m (base) + pet bonus = 2m x2 = 4m)

- Vacuum works on all sentinels (or DE idea, still duno what it will be)

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1 minute ago, TennoSimons said:

Just want to throw this out there:

Please make Universal Vaccuum available to all companions, not just Sentinels. 

That is all.

In my post, I believe the thought I've put into this should cater for virtually everyone, although there are still factors to specify with the current concepts (i.e: maximum merged Vaccum types would be 3, meaning you can only have resources/endo/affinity or resources/ammo/endo; refer to my spoiler foe details on the 'split and reunification of Vaccum' ). 

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If the divide is...  Health/energy, ammo,. And resources in general I personally won't worry about it.  I don't want an built in auto loot radius because I wouldn't be able to efficiently pick up energy, or health orbs when managing my Nekros or health/energy conversion

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I feel like the main point has been thoroughly missed here. Vacuum is a QoL thing that helps maintain the fast pace of the game. No one wants to break momentum and carefully walk over to the precise location of a mod drop just to pick it up. There's really not any reason that it shouldn't be made a universal thing. It would help keep the pace of the game, players could use any companions they want or none at all. New players wouldn't be effectively gimped until they could afford to build a sentinel, acquire the necessary Vacuum mod/mods, and level them all up. Most importantly, there's not really any negatives to making it universal to all frames. Having a limited loot pickup doesn't add anything to the game. It's not challenging and it certainly isn't interesting. It's just tedious.

If you're really considering the 3 separate mods idea, please just don't. At that point just leave Vacuum as a Carrier only precept. Cutting it into 3 parts is just universally worse than what we've got already.

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I rather see carrier stay as it is, then compromised solutions, or middle-ground solutions, that at the end, are still worse, or a nerf, in comparison to what we have now.

This is inconsiderable of my part, but we asked for UV for years now, not more band-aids, nor changes that will lead the community, to do 3 more years of "universal vacuum 2.0" treads.

 

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