Jump to content

Vacuum: Discussions Post Devstream #80


Recommended Posts

We need ONE single way to gather items without caring about the companion choice at all. Just get rid of your 3-vacuum idea. Give all frames a passive vacuum at half the radius.

Also, can't help but tell, the replacement of Vacuum for Carrier will still put it ahead of any other sentinel. All other sentinel precepts help the player indirectly, this replacement will help the player directly (as vacuum does/did), and that's why it will make Carrier the #1 choice all over again.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Either full vacuum automatically at all times without mods so we can use any and all companions without having to deal with picking stuff off the ground like intergalactic space hobos.

Or we stay in the current Carrier meta.

Splitting vacuum is just doing it half-assedly and doing something half-assed is the absolute BANE of Warframe!

IN OR OUT!

YES OR NO!

NOT MAYBE!

Link to post
Share on other sites

The issue is that Warframe has a loot system in line with most games, enemies drop loot where they die to be picked up at leisure. 

The issue is pacing. In a game like diablo once I've cleared a room I can check loot and find what I want, picking only that up. Warframe lacks an inventory cap so there is no reason not to pick up everything. However this is at odds with the games pacing. This is a fast game, and running round searching every corner for loot doesn't fit that super space ninja fantasy. 

This is why carrier is so popular, you don't have to do that searching, you can keep running and killing while you autoloot everything. 

Personally I don't use carrier, I am too stubborn to get rid of my shade, but I acknowledge how much better running carrier makes the game. 

Splitting vacuum into three mods just makes sentinels who are already squishy and weak that much weaker. Kubrows and Kavats have much more utility than sentinels, hit harder and can be revived if they go down. Sure they require care, but in pure gameplay terms they massively outclass sentinels

Just make vacuum a general sentinel mod and be done with it. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, TheGuyverOne said:

Please just do right by us, and keep up the hard work. Also first.

My thoughts on it though is that IF it is broken into three mods, people might feel forced to use all three to get the desired effect of the way carrier used to work. That may lead to the other sentinels not being properly modded, and performing poorly. Djinn is one, it can barely take any hits before it poops out on you during a mission, and it needs every slot it can get. As for pets, why can't we make a clan research item that attaches to their collars with a built in vacuum?

Im so down for this idea. Have it or dont have it, plus opens the line for attachable perk collars in the future with other cool attributes. +1

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Vimorain said:

why companions,not frames,what if some people dont want any pet ?

or that....was thinking that right after i posted....only reason i DIDNT think about it during the post was because i know very few players who go FULL solo.

Edited by xcynderx
Link to post
Share on other sites

Whatever you do, I expect the sacrifice for using Vacuum to be nothing less than significant. Wasting three mod slots sounds acceptable, but so is making them all into 20 point mods or only allowing one of those to be slotted at once. There's got to be a cost, and making it inherent to all frames without large drawback is the last thing I think you should be considering.

 

Personally, I would split up the mods in two categories and make them mutually exclusive. Health/Energy/Ammo, and Resources/Endo/Miscellaneous.

 

Edited by AuroraSonicBoom
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for listening to our feedback on this issue. I'm sure it was a completely positive experience!

I think the baseline for me is this:

Carrier needs to retain the same functionality I can achieve right now, in the same amount of mod slots. Mine is already full and I already exclude two mods that would be useful to some degree.

I really feel that frames should have a higher innate vacuum radius for mods/endo/resources (items). It's understandable that there's a desire to treat ammo, orbs, and perhaps life support (powerups) separately. To me, this seems like a simple way to address the issue:

  1. Increase frame innate item vacuum range to 75%~ of Carrier's current Vacuum range
  2. Change carrier to vacuum to
    • Extend the total range to what we have currently
    • Include powerups
  3. Add a mod for all other companions that grants an increased powerup pickup radius - Ideally that 75%, but this would allow it to be changed separately
  4. Give Chesa a new precept or buff retrieve in some way. No suggestions here, never used it.

Result would be that Carrier works as normal, consumable/powerups aren't picked up baseline, other companions can have the separately balanceable QoL mod, and most people are happy.

I'm not against the new carrier precept idea, but I think it's a little much to ask for that on top of what I suggest so I left it out. I wouldn't mind it as another precept.

Edited by Temragon
Link to post
Share on other sites

See, my problem with the question of "three types" is that it's unclear what that means.

I would hope that it means 1 universal version of Vacuum for Sentinels, 1 for Pets, and then either a bonus precept that's slightly better for Carrier or an aura for the 'Frame.

I expect that it really means 1 version for "meta" pieces such as mods and resources, 1 for "practical" things like orbs and ammo, and then 1 for some arbitrary in-between. The only purpose splitting it up in this manner would be for collecting statistics on why people care so much about Vacuum. (Spoiler: Players will all go for the universally-applicable "mods and resources" version if they can, and spare the "orbs and ammo" version because they're situational.) Ultimately the fact that it would take more mod slots to accomplish the same goal means that it really just punishes players for getting used to Carrier - which we asked to be changed several times.

What I think would be best for everyone is a middle-ground between universal and limited. Give all Warframes an innate universal vacuum effect with a smaller radius than Carrier received, say 3-5 meters; something that lets us pick up items with some freedom when we maneuver low to the ground without having to step over each individual one. Then give Sentinels a mod (Vacuum) that periodically amplifies this radius for the player to match Carrier's, and give Kubrows/Kavats one (Retrieve) that gives them a separate pickup radius from the player which immediately transfers all relevant pickups to their owner. That way you have flexibility between Sentinels and Companions, can use Dethcube for the same thing as original!Carrier, and can launch your not-joined-at-the-hip pets to pick items up without maneuvering near them; equal effectiveness, diverging applications.

"But what about Chesa Kubrows?" Well, their version has always been somewhat... finicky (ie because it relies on a conscious action rather than a passive radius, they don't always register that there even is something nearby they can pick up), which leaves room for it to change anyway. Perhaps they could receive a similar version to Carrier's "store ammo for later" effect, with a different set of items it affects (ie orbs instead), or a completely different precept; the only thing it's good for right now is smashing crates, so that's not a bad idea; perhaps swap all applied "Scavenge" mods in player inventories for the new Retrieve above, and change Chesa's to include Scavenge's original function alongside breaking crates?

Edited by Archwizard
Link to post
Share on other sites

Give everybody an innate 5m vacuum (or more if you're feeling generous. include archwing unless the vacuum your archwing has is more than 5m then just give that range to non-archwing gameplay).

Vacuum/Carrier stays the same only it ADDS loot pickup radius to your already 5m (or whatever range). This is a buff to Vacuum/Carrier really and will only mean it doesn't get dropped if for example Carrier's main precept becomes something that not a lot of people care about (like ammo mutation can be useful but on the whole not that exciting).

Make an Aura mod that gives the party +Loot pickup radius for missions where you are grouped up and defending an objective and don't want people getting distracted by trying to pickup loot outside of the defending area. Not as powerful as the Vacuum pickup radius would add but still something to augment pickup radius without having to use Carrier.

Make an Exilus mod that gives +Loot pickup radius and maybe another stat to make it exciting. Then people can equip this if they want a more convenient loot pickup without using Carrier.

Rework the Looter mod so that instead of making Carrier shoot open crates with it's gun it just opens them mechanically or magnetically (with Sentinel magic of course). Also would be amazing to automatically open unlocked (green) lockers periodically when you have the Looter mod equipped. Or have that ability on another mod, sentinel, companion, anything.

Oh and for the love of God, make it so that when you press X to open a locker it doesn't UNtoggle your sprint!

Link to post
Share on other sites

I posted a similar comment in the Megathread..

 

Leave the vauccum mod exactly as it its now.  simply change it from "Carrier" to "Companion/Sentinel"

 

fast easy fix and it makes everyone happy because those who don't want Vaccum can simply remove or not use it.

 

Why go for the most complex solution to a simple problem?

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Sixty5 said:

The issue is that Warframe has a loot system in line with most games, enemies drop loot where they die to be picked up at leisure. 

The issue is pacing. In a game like diablo once I've cleared a room I can check loot and find what I want, picking only that up. Warframe lacks an inventory cap so there is no reason not to pick up everything. However this is at odds with the games pacing. This is a fast game, and running round searching every corner for loot doesn't fit that super space ninja fantasy.

Not only that. Games like Diablo, or Borderlands have meaningful loot. You look at what's on the floor, compare stats and then make the decision to take something or leave it. And when you get something good you're happy, looting feels good.

Warframe, though? The phat lewts, like prime parts, sortie and event rewards, ALREADY go straight to your inventory. What you're looting in Warframe is 90% essentials (ammo and energy), 9% resources and endo and 1% mods (vast majority of them junk). Looting isn't rewarding here, you're never going to find that legendary Braton on the floor after killing the boss, it's just something that you do because you need that ammo. There is absolutely no point to have a loot system as it currently is at all.

Edited by TimFlint
clarification
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Jorak_Falconstar said:

I posted a similar comment in the Megathread..

 

Leave the vauccum mod exactly as it its now.  simply change it from "Carrier" to "Companion/Sentinel"

 

fast easy fix and it makes everyone happy because those who don't want Vaccum can simply remove or not use it.

 

Why go for the most complex solution to a simple problem?

 

Keep it simple stupid. I agree

Edited by (XB1)FCastle74
Link to post
Share on other sites

To me the answer to this problem is easy, all drops in warframe can be put into 2 groups

1) the drops that benefit the player after the mission: credits, endo, mods and resources.

2) the drops that benefit the player during a mission: health orbs, energy orbs and ammo.

Just make all warframes have the passive ability of picking up the drops from group 1 within 12 meters.  The 2nd group of drops remain as they are and have to be collected within 1 meter, thus maintaining control of what we pick up and when. Carrier can then be fixed by having 3 mods of which only 1 can be equipped that grant carrier the ability to pick up drops from group 2 (one mod for each drop) and this is effected by the power range of the warframe. So a 250% range build on your warframe can grant carrier picking up from 30 meters. Simple

Link to post
Share on other sites

Simply put a Universal vacuum has too many problems with a drop system like Warframes, and any mod that is needed to be "the best" is not a good thing in Warframe. The problem is not the vacuum mod but the resources... We have credits, endo, mods, ammo, energy orbs, and heath orbs to currently vacuum up. So my question is what is needed that will work with Warmframes bloated drop system?

1.) Do Warframes just need a slight increase to pick up range, or do we need to passively suck up valuables but leave energy and ammo? 

2.) If companies get a vacuum mod then players will always uses the mod. And I do not like that because of the EXP system and the fact that it takes up a mod slot. 

3.) We already have ammo mutation mods are they / will they be used with a universal vacuum? If a player is having ammo, problems could this be there solution to wasted ammo.

4.) Would a removal of most drops be the best answer (item adds to all players on kill)? Less items less things cluttering the game this might improve performance as well. Guaranties that you got what you wanted and no extra mod and no changes to pick up range? -Downside no shinnies

I like ammo... I like loot... I like shinnies... However, I need to go fast in Warframe, taking time to ether step over loot or search the whole map is not the solution. Creating a new mod is not the solution. I do not have the solution just a question what will work for the new, the old, the casual and the hardcore players of Warframe and the vacuum struggle. 

EDIT:

Make it so warframes have universal vacuum but it is tied to the mastery system. Every mastery level increases the range. This allows new players to collect and see their resources grow. But provides high level player an easier time collecting loot. Second ammo, energy, and heath will not be picked up. These can be separate vacuum mods for warframes and companions.

Edited by MultiClas
Refining ideas
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think there are 2 separate problems. The first is vacuum and the second is the overuse of carrier. Please don't try to fix them both with 1 solution.

We don't need 3 mods for vacuum or even 1 mod. All drops should be auto-collected except for power cells, syndicate medallions, corrupted mods in vaults, drift mods, dropped weapons and things like this. This should not be tied to companions and should be a default feature of the game.

Ammo bonus/mutation is a niche change (primarily for bullethose secondaries like the wraith twin vipers). It just not applicable in many instances. If you'd like to keep Carrier "loot" related, consider some kind of radar ping where it searches for uncommon or rare loot chests, syndicate medallions, sabotage lockers, etc. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Hello all Tenno!

Maybe you missed it (though that's doubtful from the volume of posts), but Friday's Devstream #80 discussed one of the longest standing feature requests in Warframe:

'Universal Vacuum'

Today in this short but sweet Dev Workshop, we're going to give you an immediate follow up to Friday's conversation.

Monday morning has been all about Vacuum, and it looked a little something like this (watching others, not ourselves):

  Reveal hidden contents

545nj9kio12.jpg


What needs to be mentioned right away is that a 'Universal Vacuum' is not off the table. The proposed division into 3 types isn't final, and it is something that is being reconsidered (this shouldn't come as a huge surprise based on the amounts of conversations that occurred).

What we want to do is measure. We know where Carrier sits in usage compared to the rest of the options. We want a calculated release of a change that will deliver on giving Sentinels the function of Vacuum, and see how it affects the usage of content in that category. The results are something we'll be sharing as it should be very interesting to everyone invested in this particular topic. The shovel in the ground on this will apply to Sentinels first, but Pets aren't off the table.

This has been a rather quick Dev Workshop, but I hope it can guide future discussions on the topic!

Thanks all!

Rebecca

 


 

so when will this calculated change happen?

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Senechaux said:

Ammo bonus/mutation is a niche change (primarily for bullethose secondaries like the wraith twin vipers). It just not applicable in many instances.

Generally speaking? The same could be said of literally any other companion, being universally applicable but best-used situationally.

If Carrier was ammo-oriented rather than the version we have now, I'd be tempted to use it about as much as I would be tempted to use Dethcube, for instance.

Edited by Archwizard
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi something is bothering me, we were shown the full orbiter in warframe and it even exist when ordis memories are scanned
so if we have orbiter that can traverl anywhere even in the void why we need Junctions to travel? is the orbier is nly stash or it have other functions? 
its been so long time noone is talking about it and it was show years ago 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just mentioning this since I haven't heard anyone think of it yet, and yall seem to have trouble thinking outside the box.

Vacuum, (as it is on Carrier atm) could be made into weapons that would provide the passive vacuum effect

It would even make a lot of sense for it to be the first truly slot-agnostic weapon, being able to be used in a primary, secondary, sentinel weapon, ect. 

You wouldn't be able to swap to it, and might not even be able to mod it. If desired, specific mods could tailor the vacuum to the player's specific wants. 

 

Vacuum as a weapon would still allow for it to be a trade-off in order to benefit from it,  but would have the added bonus of being more flexible than any other implementation I've seen so far.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Deidaku said:

Just spitting ideas but what if vaccum became a passive for all sentinels and then can be tweaked and changed with mods .

I like this idea. An Exilus slot for Companions! BAM, another use for items and structures already present in the game.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, AandOE said:

I like this idea. An Exilus slot for Companions! BAM, another use for items and structures already present in the game.

What if its a passive for the warframes themselfs? no worries wich sentinel gona use it, and than i can use my cat instead of roaming my ship 

EDDIT: 

Also just to be fair reduce the vakuum radius with 30% and make it Warframe passive skill.

Edited by Fugana
Link to post
Share on other sites

Splitting vacuum into multiple mods will likely limit sentinel choice to survivability for those that already use carrier.

If we need multiple mods to accomplish the same functionality as vacuum, then other mods will have to be sacrificed, most likely ones that boost survivability, in order to gain the same benefit that can be currently obtained with carrier.

Since carrier prime is the most tanky sentinel by far,the reduced survivability of other sentinels will likely make them not worth using if vacuum is the most desired function.  Thus for those that want the functionality of vacuum, carrier will still be the most popular choice, as a dead sentinel is useless.

The solution I would be happiest with is to make a universal vacuum effect, with the option to disable entirely and maybe even the option to disable specific pickups affected.  This could even have a reduced range if you want to leave in the other vacuum effects already present in the game.

Another solution that is slightly less powerful would be to make vacuum a companion mod, like animal instinct.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've not read through all 6 pages so forgive me if someone has already said this but...

I believe that a way to reduce peoples want for Carrier/Vacuum would be to count all loot that doesn't have immediate effect as being picked up by the whole squad when one player does.  Credits already work this way so why not resources & endo which are functionally the same?  You collect some and then you spend it on something, which probably also requires spending credits.  When it comes to mods themselves they also don't affect the game currently in play so it'd be fine for them to be given to everyone after one team member picks them up.  Ammo, Energy and Healthall have immediate effect on you so should be left as they are.

 

This would mean that someone who just wants resources and credits could use a different companion beause they know teh player with Carrier will collect everythign that matters post-game anyway.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Either make Vacuum innate to Warframes, or make the mod available for all COMPANIONS, not just sentinels.

 

If you guys DO want to pursue the 3 types thing, make it so that equipping such a mod (to your companion) will give bonuses, do not make it a requirement to suck up all types of loot, as this will make the burden of "mandatory mods" too great (which you guys are already combating with Serration).

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...