Vacuum: Discussions Post Devstream #80

[Chipputer]

7 hours ago, KirukaChan said:

Splitting it into 3 is a bit overboard, but 2 would be reasonable. One for things that refill you (health, energy, ammo), and one for loot (resources, mods, credits). I'd use Vacuum if it only picked up loot. I don't like how it wastes ammo and energy pickups currently.

Heavily support this idea. Just tossing my voice into the mix-- While I prefer non-Carrier for their utility (Djinn, Adarza, Raksa, Smeeta's non-rare item buffs, etc), I have no issues with using Vacuum, either. Giving me two mods to switch between, or use together, would allow me to tailor my builds for what matters to me at the time while still allowing me to have normal use of all of the slots that I would normally have filled with armor, shields, health, random utility, etc.

[ItsTheSolo]

Please, don't make it more complicated than it needs to be. No need to split it into three mods, no need to make it sentinel exclusive, no need to make it anything else than what we ask for. Just straight up let every frame have a pickup radius. If you feel that is too overpowered/want to cater to >1% of players who, for some reason, don't want a vacuum, than just make the mod itself available for all companions (Which still makes it an optional choice).

As for Carrier? Make it do just that, make it carry something, like the player's choice of ONE of the three:  

A Primary weapon

A Secondary weapon

A Melee weapon  

 Making it carry more ammo (Or increase magazine size? I can't exactly remember the details of what precept you guys were going for when mentioning it on stream) isn't all too interesting, and I don't think ammo has ever been much of an issue aside from weapons with terrible ammo economy (In which case, they already use ammo mutation mods). I also think making it just carry more ammo would make it the least used sentinel if it were to be changed to this proposed precept. With the "Carry an extra weapon" change I proposed, it would see some nice uses, I know I've wanted to use 2 primaries, but can't because of the game's restrictions.  

As to how it would be implemented, make it either that the Carrier uses that weapon (Imagine the Carrier using an Ignis) or make it so that interacting with the Carrier will swap the currently equipped weapon with the one it's carrying.  

 I do hope that, with whatever change you guys decide to take on, that it'll be a satisfactory change for the majority of the community.

Thank you.

Edited September 20, 2016 by ItsTheSolo
A little more clarification.

[CrazyKavatLady]

I know this has already been mentioned but just to add my vote in too:

Some of us don't neglect our other companions/sentinels in favor of Carrier because Vacuum is "nice to have", some of us NEED it. I'm in Australia and for those who don't know, the majority of our country still has ADSL connections with a download speed of less than 500kbps and our ping is terrible.

Now, Factor that in when trying to farm certain resources or drops while doing missions (or just trying to pick up energy in any mission!) even if you're standing RIGHT THERE, you often don't get the pickup and you have to go back for it. Vacuum eliminates this and is a HUGE boost to QOL. This is a real headache when you can often end up holding other players back because they're waiting for your help to open a door and you're still back making sure you got all the drops. I LOVE my other companions and sentinels but I pretty much have to use Carrier 99% of the time if I want to have fun playing instead of getting frustrated and worried about potentially missing important drops.   

Personally, I really hope you either make this a warframe passive, OR keep it as a single mod and let us apply it to sentinels AND companions. 

Adding this in would NOT be gamebreaking or ruin balance. It would keep the flow of the game feeling more like it's supposed to. The benefits from this change would only be good.

We really do appreciate you guys taking players opinions into consideration and your hard work!

[Mak_Gohae]

30 minutes ago, Synitare said:

What isn't interesting is having to carefully walk exactly over the items hitbox in order to pick it up. All frames already have vacuum in a sense. The range is simply much smaller than it needs to be

why would you say that you have to carefully walk exactly over the items when you know that there's an small aoe range pickup already? You just have to past near them at any speed.

 

50 minutes ago, Synitare said:

Looting every little inconsequential thing is tedious and entirely unnecessary.

Why would you pick up inconsequential things? Leave them there.

 

 

[Evanescent]

imo the best thing would be to distribute loot to all players immediately after kill, excepting ammo and health and energy orbs. You can then decide on whether you want to put in mods to get those akin to Vacuum.

In a fast paced game like Warframe I think it hurts the flow of combat to have to stop fighting and hunt for any loot you have missed.

[WI6HT]

Please, Just make vaccume a passive on all warframes.

[WI6HT]

DE please take a look at this mega thread posted earlier this week, 

 

[(XBOX)BULLS 0N PAR4DE]

Being a Veteran player that really doesn't use carrier anymore the 3 different vacuums idea sounds like a great thing, That is if it is split like many are suggesting.

1.  mods/credits
2. resources
3. ammo

 Or something like this.
I would only use the resource vacuum because  I have to many mods as it is and well 75 million credits is plenty. I can gladly grab orbs on my own as wellas affinty if I need it. I think this would help out all different players needs and still make it kind of a freebee.

  The only thing that bothers me is this not applying to kavats and kubrows which by the way is what I use the most.

[Pixydis]

Family Guy reference time!

"Remember how you always wanted a real diamond engagement ring?"
"OHMYGAWD"

"Yup, thats right! I've bought a horse!"

 

Yuup, that's exactly how this went. We were asking for a passive ability. Not a mod, and definitely not ohgawdpleasenot multiple mods that will do the same thing that 1 mod did before hence reducing modding variety.

In a fast paced game like this, everything is driven by resources. And you want us to stop and walk in circles over loot to pick everything up while getting shot at?

Yeah, not going to play the broken record.
Passive ability, for all. And all for Passive ability. Pls gib.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Pixydis

[Testostzzet]

I think it's fairly obvious that a lot of people want universal vacuum as a default for Warframes, period, and I think ultimately it would be a huge quality of life improvement even though I don't particularly mind running around for everything at the moment. Obviously, this would necessitate a few changes to other things.

 

Carrier: First and foremost, I think there are better ways to approach carrier than just an ammo dispenser. Unless the plan with Damage 3.0 is going to involve huge nerfs to ammo efficiency, I doubt it's going to affect many weapons to a noticeable extent. However, I think if Carrier were capable of carrying an emergency reserve of energy (generated up to a reasonable cap via pickups), that it could deploy once player energy reached zero (and any magnetic procs subsided), that would be immensely useful in general, and provide a hard counter to energy-draining units that a solo player might not be able to pick off immediately. This would still make Carrier an in-demand sentinel without necessarily overshadowing the utility of the other ones, and prevent it from becoming just an extremely situational ammo bag. It would also maintain the theme of the sentinel quite well.

 

Chesa Kubrow: I don't think our little retrievers would need much of a change, if any at all, but if you still wanted something with an ammo utility, you could combine its disarm precept (dog trick?) with its retrieval capabilities to have it bring ammo based on the type of weapon it disarmed back to its master. Wouldn't be particularly game changing, but you got the gears turning in my head with your ideas for Carrier so I figured I'd mention it.

 

Mag's Passive: This is one I'm really surprised you guys didn't jump on. Instead of giving her an item vacuum on bullet jump, give her an enemy vacuum, dragging all non-boss enemies in a certain radius around the point of her bullet jump. The code is already there in her Magnetize ability, and it would give her not just a little more oomph in close quarters but an entertaining, high-risk level of CC that would allow her to set up some really crippling blows with her abilities if used well. Plus, it'd be really fun, and it can't possibly be more overpowered than chucking entire swaths of enemies across the room for virtually no energy cost.

 

Anyway, that's just my two cents. I really don't think you have anything to lose by making Vacuum just an innate part of the Warframe experience, and there's ample opportunity for updated and more interesting mechanics in the process. I won't naysay the three-vacuum thing before trying it, but I have to admit it doesn't sound very fun. Regardless of what you do, thank you for consulting the community on this one, and thank you for all the work you put into this game. I've been teaching myself how to code in Gamemaker for the last month or two, and it's really made me realize what a nightmare a game like Warframe must be sometimes.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Tavanaka

[JalakBali]

Let's first analyze how Vacuum affects gameplay.

In a heated battle, where you're focusing on your aim and which power to use, your power level or duration, the last thing on your mind is what's on the ground. When you're surrounded and busy fighting for your life, it's not good gameplay to force the players to switch their attention to something else, like scrounging for ammo and energy orbs. Vacuum is not just a "convenience" feature. It's a necessity in many cases and I'm not even including bugs where loot are dropped out of your regular pickup range.

 

So, let's split the types of loot drops:

1. Energy and health orbs

2. Ammo

3. Mods and Endo

4. Resources

5. Credits

 

1 and 2 are "crucial". Like, *VERY* crucial. 1 is the most crucial where the time you could take time is the time you need them. 2 is slightly less but only for the fact that you might have a side arm and a melee. 3, 4 and 5 are drops you could pick up at any time and not crucial in the heat of battle. Easily and quickly picking those up could be called "convenience". 1 and 2 are not. You could take your time and focus on picking up mods, resources and credits. You shouldn't have to do that for orbs and ammo.

 

So, what I propose is this:

1. Passive vacuum for Warframes for energy and health orbs and ammo. Players should not be expected to grab these for every inch they're dropped.

2. Vacuum mod for the rest of loot drops. If you must split the mods, split them between (1)mods and (2)resources+credits. But there's really no good reason to do that other than making life harder.

 

I don't even mind if you keep the Vacuum mod for Sentinels only. It makes sense that Sentinels and dogs/cats should be separated in functions. But you really need to create a clear focus on what those functions are supposed to be. Maybe Sentinels are more for convenience while dogcats are more for combat. That would work. But right now there's just no clear focus on what companions are supposed to do. Nerf Sentinel guns and make them more status oriented if you want. Because right now the DPS of Sweeper Prime is higher than any dogcat due to how fickle the AI of dogcats are, so much that dogcats combat prowess is irrelevant. Or maybe switch them around. Make Vacuum only works on dogcats because they sure as hell more of a hassle to make and keep than Sentinels.

[Chipputer]

6 minutes ago, JalakBali said:

In a heated battle,

 

6 minutes ago, JalakBali said:

1. Energy and health orbs

2. Ammo

3. Mods and Endo

4. Resources

5. Credits

 

6 minutes ago, JalakBali said:

3, 4 and 5 are drops you could pick up at any time and not crucial in the heat of battle.

There are very few situations where you're not being rushed down by groups of enemies. This is a horde shooter. Sure, I can pick up that mod at any time, but I'm not often going to have enough time to go back and pick it up without holding back the group and having angry players smashing their waypoint key repeatedly in an attempt to hint that I need to hurry up.

Now, ammo and orbs? I can grab those, as needed, without interrupting much of the flow of combat. As a matter of fact, picking those up is directly within the flow of my combat. I'm not one to appreciate casting Smite and having the game decide to vacuum up an entire 25 energy to replace the 7 that I just used. Ammo mutation? Sure, I can vacuum all of those up, but I can just as easily dash toward those little glowy lights and stomp all over them while using my movement  tools to dodge incoming enemy fire.

Please. Quit pretending to "analyze" the gameplay and offer arguments as to why it's "necessary." Aside from the Australia ping thing, most of the people claiming to offer an analysis often disregard the experiences of people who don't find it difficult to focus on shooting and noticing that pulsing blue orb on the ground over there. Your experience isn't universal. Don't present it as though it is.

[Reclusiarch_Grimaldus]

If it´s split into 3 mods, those will be just as mandatory as Carrier has been before and therefore it´s a step in the wrong direction.
If the new mod(s) are only equippable on Sentinels, this again leaves Kubrows and Kavats out in the cold, still being useless.
If we get a universal vacuum that is just a passive ability on all frames, we get variety in pet usage, build variety and first and foremost we keep warframe the fast paced space ninja gameplay it is and should be.
In my book, there´s a whole lot to gain with universal vacuum and nothing to lose, except for people who feel the need to profile themselves by accentuating how they don´t need it and how others are lazy.
 

I personally do not enjoy running around for mods that some hallway hero dropped miles away in a corridor hidden behind some Orokin vase and i don´t even know it´s there. Or that mod that Synoid SImulor blew out of the map or left it hanging from the ceiling.
Neither do i like to have my movement dictated by the pattern the drops line up on the floor. I wanna by able to slide and zip through enemies, take cover when needed, rain death down on them while i fly over their heads with a majestic bullet jump, landing that headshot just to follow up with a slide kick to the next bad guys face. That is what warframes gameplay is all about to me.
If i have to go pick up every single loot item, i just can´t do that any more.
At that point warframe will be dead to me.
The whole parcour 2.0 rework really revitalized the gameplay in a way that kept me going to this day, when i was at the brink of quitting the game.
Any nerv to vacuum will destroy all we gained from parcour 2.0, so please DE don´t screw this up.

There is a clear and easy solution. Make it a universal, innate warframe ability. Do not nerv the range or pickup count. Do not add a cooldown. Do not add any other arbitrary "fixes". Just for once give us what we crave, because we are right about this one. Because to be frank, if this goes through any other way, we as a community have to assume our voice doesn´t count for anything and we have been singing the praises of the caring Devs all in vain.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Reclusiarch_Grimaldus

[Duck_Nation]

I'll keep this simple. I no longer play this game. Feel free to check that fact, DE; you have my credentials right here in front of you.

Now let me impress upon you why I don't. Every time you've ever been pushed to make a real decision about an unpopular design, you go out of your way to do things that are guaranteed to make the maximum number of people furious. I love a lot about this game but every step forward is lurching and painful. "Nothing can ever be improved without breaking something else" should be the official company motto.

The removal of vacuum as a mod and expansion of innate frame pickup radius is the only right solution. The reasons why have been more than adequately articulated here and elsewhere, so I'm not going to retread them. Let your community lead you where they want to go for once and show this is a product people should want to spend money on, rather than ripping away features and asking to be applauded for "fixing" it.

I always told my friends I'd come back for Mirage Prime, because there had to still be something to love about this game. If you make the wrong decision here, you're ensuring many players - myself included - will see nothing left to come back for.

[KoshLovesYou]

This has been repeated so many times already, but I think just more voices stressing this big design issue is worth it. But thanks for the platform to even state it:

We're already starving for mod slots on items. You create so many really interesting utility mods for weapons and warframes alike; and I just can't use them, due to other 'standards of living' mods that take priority just to play/get survivable results.

Sticking to a mod-based solution to the item pickup issue is just going to make it even harder for players to want to use any new/future really neat mods you make for sentinels/pets in the future.

It really makes me think of your recent PC Mag interview:

In particular, the sentiment and realization: Simple equals good. Sit back and ask yourselves:

1. What are the possible reasons we would want, as devs, vacuum to not be universal?
2. What are the possible reasons we would, as devs, for vacuum to be universal?
3. Between these two outlooks, which generates more problems equally for the devs and the player base?

Simple equals good. Figure out which method would really streamline what your metric as devs is; Either way, I'm willing to bet adding to the already big issue of mod-slot starvation isn't it.

[CorvusTheHeretic]

Vacuum needs to be a passive that every companion innately has.

Making it Snetinel-only, as well as splitting it into 3 parts will just make more mandatory mods, which is the opposite of what you want as I recall, and won't solve the issue.

I have suggested before on Reddit that "carrier" needs to carry something, the best would be an additional weapon.

[Wyrmsilver]

I'd like to add my voice here. I have every hope that we will get something slightly more usable than what was floated on the dev stream, but I want to throw in a reminder for a detail that will otherwise likely be forgotten. PLEASE don't forget to add a vacuum to archwing in some form. I don't want to be stuck relying on itzal's crush to collect stuff. I really want to like archwing. it has a ton of potential, and this would be a significant step towards streamlining archwing gameplay.

[Arkvold]

4 hours ago, CylustheVirus said:

Look fellas, let's be honest here.  What we need, more than anything, is to preserve the pacing and flow of this very action oriented game.  Going round and round on foot to pick up space change in the proverbial couch cushions of the map isn't fun, fast, or consistent with the theme and pacing of the game.  I'm a Space Ninja, not a Space Janitor.

So how do we preserve flow and pacing while also retaining a reason for Carrier to exist and the need to make decisions about whether or not to pick up ammo?  Easy.

Award mods and crafting materials at the end of the mission. 

As soon as a mod or quantity of crafting materials is earned (by killing an enemy or breaking a container), throw a quick notification to reflect that (like you already do), but don't drop it as a physical item in the world.

Leave ammo, energy, and health pickups as-is.  Those need to exist in the world, since picking them up is a tactical decision.  Carrier's vacuum can remain basically unchanged and can apply to those things only. 

I don't see the downsides here, but the benefits are great:

1. Preserves/enhances the pacing and flow of the game.  This means Tenno can run and jump and bob and weave to their hearts content.  No more anxiety over missed loot.
2. Net-Zero impact on economy.  If players start to collect too many materials, scale drop rates down.  Results will be quite a bit more uniform, at least from drops from enemies (which I'd bet were the majority source of resource drops anyhow).
3. Less visual clutter.  Fewer nobs and baubles on screen mean what IS on screen can be more meaningful.
4. Carrier still has a unique niche for frames that want to be a bit more mobile while picking stuff up - particularly fragile frames.  This synergizes well with Sweeper, since anybody that comes close to that fragile frame gets a face full o' buckshot.  Also, there's no need to completely re-engineer how Carrier works.
5. Archwing missions suck significantly less, since there's no searching an enormous void in my floaty frame just to grab some resources

All right, maybe you miss out on sliding through a pile of loot, but I'd gladly trade that for getting that one damned Argon Crystal or Oxium drop that decided to fall through a crack in the map. 

This guy gets it.

[Pobstar]

For the love of god just make it a universal vacuum that is innate to all Warframes, I don't see why there even needs to be a discussion on it, picking things up is not 'overpowered'. If it's a mod, it's pointless because it'll just be a mandatory mod to put on everything and if you do this split into three nonsense I might just never bother playing again cause I'll be wasting half my time walking over the things that I can't suck.

[JHarlequin]

 It might be best to keep vacuum as is.  To narrow down most of the basic aspects of vacuum use, there are basically four types of players.  Players that want the loot and use vacuum.  Players that want the loot and run around to get most of it.  Players that don't want the loot and just keep running.  And players that don't want the loot but they still use vacuum because it just doesn't matter.

 Universal vacuum would be a huge change and would change up a lot of things about the loot gathering.  Though increasing the current pickup range would not be an issue that any player would be against.

 As for why I believe vacuum should probably stay as it is, first, I just don't want more mods.  There are too many mods and so many that aren't used well, so anytime a dev plan comes up that includes the words "More mods" I am against it.

 Second, as a split up mod it does lose most of it's usefulness, you will find many people just ignoring the mods and picking up loot themselves.  If you have to pick up any of the loot yourself, you will just pick it all up yourself and not bother with the mods.  Some people would use the mods of course, but most players would probably just not bother with them.

 Third issue, the proposed new use of carrier would see it going from being 89% used, to probably about 5% for a few weeks, then to an uncountably low amount of use.  Ammo mutation and ammo "drum" are useful if you can run out of ammo.  I mentioned it in another thread but either you are using a gun that just floods out bullets and might help, or you are going somewhere where Carrier won't survive long enough for you to get any use out of an ammo boosting ability.  The new carrier proposal does not make me think of anything useful.  I believe most people would just give up carrier entirely as soon as they realize that it just doesn't survive to do anything useful.

 If vacuum does go through a change, then I believe many other sentinel mods that are referred to as precepts should also change.  Some of the abilities really could be used by more then one sentinel though it should be limited for most of the powers.  But other precepts like the 7 different "shoot gun" mods should be wiped out in favor of mods that work for every sentinel and specify the situation for when someone wants their sentinel to shoot.

[WhyNotBro]

Do not invent the bicycle this time, please. Make Vacuum innate. That is all what comunity asks for. And there is nothing criminal at all. We are playing face-pased game with tonns of the loot and enemies shooting from all directions. We need a bigger pick up area. Nothing more. Do it by adding Vacuum for all companions, by making it a passive for warframes or just anything what would costs us (players) nothing in fact.

Splitting it into 3 parts is a bad idea. Why? 1) We have no place even for 1 extra mode.  2) Our gameplay stands on the loot and players supose to have an option to pick it up as fast as possible, because....we have no time while mission to runing all over the map :P

Honestly, this time DE has an oportunity to please the comunity. According to what has happened in the summer, i beg You, learn your lessons, do what community asks for. It is not a big deal, after all.

[Sandtiger1987]

I see people asking for the mods to be usable on the cats and dogs as well. however, my concern with that is beacuse of the independent movement of the AI, these get stuck in places quite often. Since a sentinel is always over the shoulder, that is not an issue. 

As for the suggested splitting, i think that 3 is too many. Why is the split even necessary?

[Alcoholism]

I'm happy with a lot of the ideas that are being thrown around to improve the current acquirement of drops in regards to the sentinel/companion used.

Imo the frames themselves should have their own innate vacuum but slightly less than the carrier vacuum. i.e. front range: 7m (instead of 10 at max rank), peripheral range: 9m (instead of 12 at max rank). This is just due to the mechanic of picking up loot being too easy which could be slightly lessened to ensure players get close enough to pick them up (risk/reward and player skill based).

If you guys still want to go with 3 different types of vacuum mods (for sentinel/companion) in accordance with an innate frame vacuum then:

• Health orbs: Increase effectiveness of the orbs based on current player health (the higher the health the less the effect / the lower the health the more the effect)
• Energy orbs: Increase effectiveness of the orbs (the higher the energy pool the less the effect / the lower the energy pool the more the effect)
• Resources: Increases front and peripheral range of the frame's innate vacuum by 3m at max rank.

Loot not in the above categories can be picked up via innate frame vacuum (not affected by the above mods).
Then just make it so only one of the vacuum mods can be present on the sentinel/companion so players can't be completely overpowered; they're building for a specific purpose.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Alcoholism

[pikaseechu]

11 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

-snip-
 

But SpaceMom, 

We older vets tend to use Carrier/Prime purely based on his survivability. He's got a smaller hitbox, tanks vetter than other sentinels, and has acess to the most useful mods for companions. 

Tanky sentinel is best sentinel. While Kubrows and Kavats can sometimes tank pretty good as well, they also have bigger models and hitboxes as a result. 

While the Vacuum rework is potentially going to change sentinel usage for the better, you should also take a good look at all the sentinels and their weapons vs Carrier/Prime. 

 

[blablark]

Personally I feel that Vacuum should be innate with all Warframes. This would benefit both companions and sentinels. If you are really adamant about splitting it into mods, I suggest putting it into one mod only for both sentinels and companions if not we will waste too many mod slots.