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Excalibur is overnerfed. Badly.


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On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 9:46 PM, DiabolusUrsus said:

*snip*

3. If you must have an insanely effective Warframe that blows the given task out of the water to feel like it is a "worthwhile" choice, why are you expecting an all-rounder of any sort to fit that bill? Outstanding performance is typically reserved for more specialized (and thus more niche) characters.

I will grant that I'm late to this party, however I see some problems with this theory in any game, ever.  What's the point of the generalists when the specialists generally do better in the long run (ref. insects, proving specialization viable for ~300 million years and counting)?  A generalist suffers in comparison first by somewhat subpar performance, and second by game design that usually reinforces the drawbacks of generalization but almost never the benefits.  This is something I'm quite tired of in gaming, honestly.  It's a style, a choice, that limits a 'Frame (a character) without giving back.

When a generalist character does well I tend to have FAR more fun playing them than a specialist.  Point of fact I usually try to generalize anything I play in a Fallout/TES-style game from the start.  It shows me what is possible and what is fun (being that these are not always equal).

You make a good point overall.  I'm just getting tired of people saying "oh, it's okay, that 'Frame isn't bad at all, it's just a generalist and you're doing it wrong" whenever someone has a beef with nerfs that destroy specialties on the 'Frame in question.  Please note:  I'm not saying that this is the case for Excal.  He was beastly for a while after his rework, and now he's not so much so.

Then again, isn't each 'Frame SUPPOSED to be THE specialist in whatever it's theme is anyway?

This is something that bothers me with the current design logic in Warframe right now.  It's been there all along, but the attitudes and Warframe roles are becoming stratified.  I feel more is lost in turning a specialist into a generalist than is being gained back, and it's diluting gameplay.

This is just my opinion on the matter, and I don't expect everyon to agree.

Edited by Cytobel
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On 21.09.2016 at 6:34 AM, Epsik-kun said:

Currently, there's no objective reason to use Excalibur

What?! He is still OP. I can survive very long and deal a lot of DPS with just my efficiency, 115% power strength with quick thinking build. Blind enemies to deal 4x more damage and life strike from a distance. He is still very useful the only complain that I could find is his 3rd ability, that makes weak damage and stuns for 2-3 sec? While I have Radial blind. And while all the time using Exalted blade I don;t use his first ability because I already can cut them from distance, so I don't see a reason to waste energy.

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On 10/1/2016 at 0:54 AM, Cytobel said:

*snip*

It's not perfect, to be sure, but the "generalist" is typically valued for being more accessible. It can do everything, and its all-round stats typically make it more forgiving for players who aren't as experienced. 

And I'll definitely agree what Warframe is ill in that regard. Games that do "all-rounder" styles fairly well are usually balanced such that all-rounders can always perform fairly well. Warframe is obviously balanced around "specialists" to the point that everyone that isn't the right "kind" of specialist (with great CC or ridiculous defense) falls off in effectiveness in a painfully noticeable manner.

To put it simply... most games reward you for learning to use a specialist, whereas Warframe punishes you for anything that isn't a specialist. I can see that, and I'm not any more happy with it than you are.

However...

I strongly believe that we should not go around trying to uplift each and every frame into a specialist level of performance suited to the CC-defense meta that has been dominant for so long. I would much rather see the outstanding "specialists" reined in to a somewhat-sane level and the game rebalanced so that players can afford to fight against enemies that aren't constantly rendered helpless.

It's always kind of weird to see people complaining when a Warframe can't go 60 (or anything else past 20) minutes in survival solo (Though with Shadow Step any frame can do that...) or starts to struggle in a group. We've never been entitled to surviving that long, but the fact that we've been allowed to get so used to it has done a great deal of damage to the game IMO.

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@DiabolusUrsus: I'm to the point where I don't care if a general retuning of 'Frames focuses on increasing or decreasing nombers for the 'Frames, just so long as each one feels (roughly) equally relevant as a character choice.  Some things probably need buffs, other things need nerfs, and enemy scaling et al would need to see similar tweaking.

I guess I'm less concerned with numbers shifting when I say a thing needs a buff, but rather I feel more beneficial mechanical interactions may be called for.  Then again, Volt's rework (specifically Riot Shield) shows just how far DE will go to ignore player feedback on the severity of negative interactions.

TL;DR:  I basically agree with you.  That was a bit drawn-out for an agreement, but whatever.

EDIT:  It strikes me as slightly weird that people would hang-up over something making it an hour in Survival solo.  It almost doesn't matter whether or not the 'Frame is capable.  Sometimes you just get screwed by RNGesus, AI, and spawns.  To really get a good test you sort of need to dump 8-12 hours of your life into testing that one thing.

Yeah, it took me a while to get to come to that conclusion myself, so I see where people are making the mistakes in logic.  Even so I won't try that with a 'Frame I'm not totally in love with from the start, so why bother?  Heck, the right weapons will usually carry you that far practically reguardless of your 'Frame...  just so long as you're either not super-squish or you're very good at dodging.

Edited by Cytobel
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@Cytobel

I just want the frames to be as intuitive and interesting to play as I found the Saryn rework to be. I definitely agree that it seems like DE is dead-set on taking good ideas and twisting them into things that don't really work all that well because it's more "unique" or they feel like a particular idea would be too "imbalanced."

Two examples being the Grineer Manics (seriously, does anybody really find a teleporting periodically-invincible enemy to be much fun?) and the upcoming Vacuum changes. I really don't like how they seem to think things need to be balanced out by inconvenience.

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Wait, since when did Excal become a generalist. I thought he is a melee DPS specialist since his 1 is a charge that add to melee counter, 2 that is a AE CC that let him do massive melee finisher, 3 is him holding his finger near mobs' head telling them "I am not touching you" and 4 is him cosplaying a jedi.

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On 21.09.2016 at 6:34 AM, Epsik-kun said:

1) Spin Blind energy cost;

True, I have no idea why does it even exists. It's completely pointless.

On 21.09.2016 at 6:34 AM, Epsik-kun said:

2) Wave damage fall off;

If only he was somehow compensated for this I wouldn't mind.

On 21.09.2016 at 6:34 AM, Epsik-kun said:

3) Parasitic auras affecting toggles;

Parasitics in general are poor design choices.

On 21.09.2016 at 6:34 AM, Epsik-kun said:

4) Removal of rewards from Endless Void, removal of Draco;

I really don't know what you're trying to say here. So you're no longer AFK camping and spam RJ? Yeah, terrible nerf. Not.

RJ is one ability Excal should've lost with rework, not Super Jump. Super Jump had this cool feature of making you invisible for few seconds so it was good for getting away from mobs. It would function greatly with parkour 2.0. RJ on the other hand is radial nuke which, unless heavily modded, can't kill and offers next to zero CC. It was only good for AFK camping.

On 21.09.2016 at 6:34 AM, Epsik-kun said:

Introduction of Shadow Debt mods.

I see no reason why they don't work on his normal attacks.

On 21.09.2016 at 6:34 AM, Epsik-kun said:

Duration and Efficiency changes.

.I don't think it's truly nerf. This way frames using channeled powers don't have to butcher their duration.

On 21.09.2016 at 6:34 AM, Epsik-kun said:

Currently, there's no objective reason to use Excalibur - on the vast majority of the game's content he can be heavily outperformed by a properly modded Shadow Debt melee in hands of a non-melee oriented frame. In endless Void he is only "on pair" with Shadow Debt melee at best.

Just because Warframe isn't part of meta doesn't make it bad. What makes it bad are poor abilities.
Beside, I'd say you are wrong here. Shadow Debt melees take a while to gather high enough combo- and if you happen to not hit anything over 15 seconds you have to start all over again. EB has waves and isn't reliant on combo counter

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4 hours ago, Slaviar said:

It was only good for AFK camping.

Not true actually. RJ build currently is the most viable build Excalibur can get - in terms of "other guys can't do that". Regretfully, its usability is limited only to low-level Exterminations.

And honestly, you shouldn't judge a build on your personal opinion on the gameplay style it provides. I enjoy playing around effectiveness and team synergy as much as I enjoy playing the actual game. And RJ build had provided that - as well as a completely separate way of playing the frame.

4 hours ago, Slaviar said:

Shadow Debt melees take a while to gather high enough combo

Five hits don't take you a while. Like, seriously - I would've agreed with you immediately if Shadow Debt melee actually required you to make an effort to sustain the combo - but it doesn't. You will only need a high combo in something like overstayed solo survivals - which I happen to mention as the very thing Excal excels at, exactly due to this reason.

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Since we seem to have so much emphasis being placed on our Efficiency anymore I wonder if we aren't overdue for another efficiency mod.  It might be worth noting many of us kinda hate Fleeting Expertise.  I would like to see something like Constitution, but for Efficiency.  Maybe Efficiency and reduced procs on self?  Something like that, I guess.

I'm concerned Excalibur needs a bit more CC, at least the option for it.  This event over the weekend had me picking Excals up off the dirt too often, and I'm a Volt.  Some element of survival isn't there, to be sure, even if things boiled down to player error.  Well, that, whipcords, and tons or rockets all over.  Still, I think Excals were performing a bit under what I expected of them.

The problem with a melee specialist facing off against swarms of rocket-launcher equipped heavies is that the specialist HAS TO HAVE  methods for disarming his foes.  Good as Blind might be, he needs some sort of dodge effect on his Slash Dash.  Maybe RJ should proc elemental effects from your melee weapon as well.  The possibility of Radiation procs from RJ could be quite a nice plus for room disruption.

Edited by Cytobel
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59 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

Not true actually. RJ build currently is the most viable build Excalibur can get - in terms of "other guys can't do that". Regretfully, its usability is limited only to low-level Exterminations.

And honestly, you shouldn't judge a build on your personal opinion on the gameplay style it provides. I enjoy playing around effectiveness and team synergy as much as I enjoy playing the actual game. And RJ build had provided that - as well as a completely separate way of playing the frame.

As I said. AFK camping. Without Trin to provide energy you will never (and I don't recall you ever could) sustain constant use of RJ.

41 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

Five hits don't take you a while. Like, seriously - I would've agreed with you immediately if Shadow Debt melee actually required you to make an effort to sustain the combo - but it doesn't. You will only need a high combo in something like overstayed solo survivals - which I happen to mention as the very thing Excal excels at, exactly due to this reason.

I'm a bit sceptical to this. EB has very high base damage which doesn't only scale from equipped melee mods but also from power strength. I'm not sure how these two interact in damage increase but even with neutral power strength EB can get formidable damage and waves provide significant advantage over conventional melee weapons

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1 hour ago, Cytobel said:

Since we seem to have so much emphasis being placed on our Efficiency anymore I wonder if we aren't overdue for another efficiency mod.  It might be worth noting many of us kinda hate Fleeting Expertise.  I would like to see something like Constitution, but for Efficiency.  Maybe Efficiency and reduced procs on self?  Something like that, I guess.

I'm concerned Excalibur needs a bit more CC, at least the option for it.  This event over the weekend had me picking Excals up off the dirt too often, and I'm a Volt.  Some element of survival isn't there, to be sure, even if things boiled down to player error.  Well, that, whipcords, and tons or rockets all over.  Still, I think Excals were performing a bit under what I expected of them.

The problem with a melee specialist facing off against swarms of rocket-launcher equipped heavies is that the specialist HAS TO HAVE  methods for disarming his foes.  Good as Blind might be, he needs some sort of dodge effect on his Slash Dash.  Maybe RJ should proc elemental effects from your melee weapon as well.  The possibility of Radiation procs from RJ could be quite a nice plus for room disruption.

Lol, FE is already OP as it is.

Excal can permablind whole tiles; his CC is fine.

Slashdash makes you invulnerable during the animation.

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3 hours ago, Epsik-kun said:

low-level Exterminations

2 hours ago, Slaviar said:

As I said. AFK camping

wat

2 hours ago, Slaviar said:

I'm a bit sceptical to this. EB has very high base damage which doesn't only scale from equipped melee mods but also from power strength. I'm not sure how these two interact in damage increase but even with neutral power strength EB can get formidable damage and waves provide significant advantage over conventional melee weapons

 
 
 

Exalted Blade indeed has a formidable damage output, not to mention it also provides access to a non-finisher-enabling Blind. The problem with is, that even with the waves, its AoE capabilities are far behind of such of some melee weapons. Simply due to the way enemies spawn and behave - having a large circular AoE is generally much better than having an excessively large linear AoE.

Like, for a comparison - my Exalted Blade has around 3k damage. You can push this higher - up to like 13k of damage, for which you will have to gimp your build horrendously.

Current melee can easily spin for over 10k damage starting on x1.5 combo modifier - no powers involved, no energy spent, no mods on frame required. It's already higher damage that Exalted Blade can achieve without going for very specific builds.

It's a given, that Exalted Blade is still likely to have higher solo-target dps. Not only you get double strikes up close - you have access to Spin Blind, that multiplies your damage output severely. But the problem is - you won't need that damage output normally. So - for the most of the content in the game, it's a choice between one-shotting stuff with a circular AoE or linear AoE. And circular AoE ends up being several times better than linear.

Exalted Blade will start to contest Blood Rush melee only on a level of stuff like Grineer Sorties. However - throw in Naramon and the melee once again becomes a better option. That makes Exalted Blade a good option compared to a Blood Rush melee in things like Grineer Eximus or Grineer Augmented Armor Sortie Exterminates. However - that's only correct for frames that have no melee synergy. Get anything with such synergy and Exalted Blade is once again left in the dust.

So the only option left is to go against enemies who can take a hella lot of punishment - just so your innate EBlade dps advantages start to matter. But here we are facing the fact that these "advantages" were made far less sustainable that they used to be, which kinda defeats their whole point. Not to mention, there is no point in doing these survivals nowadays.

Edited by Epsik-kun
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11 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

wat

I don't accept low level missions as indicator if build is usable or not. Everything can kill in them.

As for EB- don't forget it benefits from Naramon as well. I don't have majority of Naramon passives unlocked so I can't confirm how crit passive works with that but, if my calculations are correct, it raises crit chance to 32% (with True Steel) which, considering amount of waves sent and mobs hit guarantee permanent invisibility which can be activated from distance. Sounds good.

I've never argued against Excalibur buff. I really wish for it. Not big one though. Few tweaks here or there- allowing acolyte mods on EB or if it would be too much increasing its crit and status, adding better combos, improving his armor and health, removing slide blind cost would help him a lot. I just think you underestimate him. He's no longer as good as he used to be but he ain't bad either

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6 hours ago, Slaviar said:

I don't accept low level missions as indicator if build is usable or not. Everything can kill in them.

As for EB- don't forget it benefits from Naramon as well. I don't have majority of Naramon passives unlocked so I can't confirm how crit passive works with that but, if my calculations are correct, it raises crit chance to 32% (with True Steel) which, considering amount of waves sent and mobs hit guarantee permanent invisibility which can be activated from distance. Sounds good.

I've never argued against Excalibur buff. I really wish for it. Not big one though. Few tweaks here or there- allowing acolyte mods on EB or if it would be too much increasing its crit and status, adding better combos, improving his armor and health, removing slide blind cost would help him a lot. I just think you underestimate him. He's no longer as good as he used to be but he ain't bad either

superjump + radial blind used to be my thing since it defeated LoS hahaha. but i agree with a previous poster super jump should have been retained and radial jav removed. for those wanting shadow dept mods they would have to remove the waves and give EB a much better stance because of human behavior and im saying this with all honesty people are likely to CQC if their melee weapon isnt a rifle. rather than blinding enemies on spin attack in EB they should be impaled like radial jav which would be more fitting as it would reduce enemy damage of those in close quarters surrounding you (just some wishful thinking).

Edited by EinheriarJudith
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30 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

superjump + radial blind used to be my thing since it defeated LoS hahaha. but i agree with a previous poster super jump should have been retained and radial jav removed. for those wanting shadow dept mods they would have to remove the waves and give EB a much better stance because of human behavior and im saying this with all honesty people are likely to CQC if their melee weapon isnt a rifle. rather than blinding enemies on spin attack in EB they should be impaled like radial jav which would be more fitting as it would reduce enemy damage of those in close quarters surrounding you (just some wishful thinking).

Are you unaware the waves do not add to combo multiplier currently? Shadow Debt mods would actively weaken the waves, which is something DE is (or, was) apparently interested in doing.

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8 minutes ago, Racter said:

Are you unaware the waves do not add to combo multiplier currently? Shadow Debt mods would actively weaken the waves, which is something DE is (or, was) apparently interested in doing.

what i said was not about the mods effecting the waves but how human behavior is formed around them EB has an actual stance but i NEVER see an excaliber that is CQC because hes just standing back shooting waves. that is an unchanged fact removal of the waves removes the behavoir formed around it.

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Allowing Shadow Debt for EBlade can be quite decent actually. The way Shadow Debt melee is built will cut Excalibur's default damage quite a bit, however, that could be compensated by getting a x2/x2.5 combo - which isn't something he is normally running around with. So here's the motivation to move up close to the target. And the late-game performance also gets boosted - so here's the potential.

However, allowing Shadow Blade on EBlade will mean allowing it on other Exalted weapons. And while Primal Rage would be fine, Hysteria will break. Shadow Debt Hysteria's damage can easily exceed million per strike.

To be completely honest - given the disadvantages Hysteria brings - I don't see that as a problem. But the vast majority of players will.

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23 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

what i said was not about the mods effecting the waves but how human behavior is formed around them EB has an actual stance but i NEVER see an excaliber that is CQC because hes just standing back shooting waves. that is an unchanged fact removal of the waves removes the behavoir formed around it.

You misunderstand. You would be trading 2x 90% elementals (which do buff waves) for 2 mods that only affect the sword. That's a ~40% damage decrease to the waves, which would lead to needing to actually hit things with the sword sooner, forcing them into melee range sooner.

21 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

Allowing Shadow Debt for EBlade can be quite decent actually. The way Shadow Debt melee is built will cut Excalibur's default damage quite a bit, however, that could be compensated by getting a x2/x2.5 combo - which isn't something he is normally running around with. So here's the motivation to move up close to the target. And the late-game performance also gets boosted - so here's the potential.

However, allowing Shadow Blade on EBlade will mean allowing it on other Exalted weapons. And while Primal Rage would be fine, Hysteria will break. Shadow Debt Hysteria's damage can easily exceed million per strike.

To be completely honest - given the disadvantages Hysteria brings - I don't see that as a problem. But the vast majority of players will.

^^^^^

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13 hours ago, Slaviar said:

As for EB- don't forget it benefits from Naramon as well. I don't have majority of Naramon passives unlocked so I can't confirm how crit passive works with that but, if my calculations are correct, it raises crit chance to 32% (with True Steel) which, considering amount of waves sent and mobs hit guarantee permanent invisibility which can be activated from distance. Sounds good.

I think that no longer works. Think they've nerfed that in a hotfix.

13 hours ago, Epsik-kun said:

Current melee can easily spin for over 10k damage starting on x1.5 combo modifier - no powers involved, no energy spent, no mods on frame required. It's already higher damage that Exalted Blade can achieve without going for very specific builds

I had been formaing and leveling my destreza and furax w recently, both excellent red crit weapons. Considering how I reach 1-2million damage frequently with Limbo (x3.8?), I have to agree to this.

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As melee damage became more viable (to match ranged dps) it pushed past most 'Frame abilities, sometimes by orders of magnitude.  Anymore I'm happy to see elemental procs happening from my ability casts, because that is ALL they do.  Not every 'Frame feels this, but it seems to be the intention of DE to tone back 'Frame abilities at the cost of rendering certain 'Frames so wildly underperforming that you have no plausible reason to use them past level 30.

As much as I generally dislike wave-spamming Excalibros trying to destroy everything in sight (borking my combo counter) I figure the ability wasn't a BAD thing.  The one point I wonder about is the range.  Shouldn't blade waves be somewhat short range, but quite powerful?  Shouldn't they also have a bit of a broader cone to them?  Shouldn't they be like a whip in that aspect?

I think a redesign of Exalted Blade was called for, given what we were doing with Excal.  I don't believe we've seen something that works yet.  Then again, he's not UNPLAYABLE, so that's a bonus.

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2 hours ago, Madho said:

I think that no longer works. Think they've nerfed that in a hotfix.

You mean Naramon passives no longer work with EB? Shadow Step definitely does, I've used it just few days ago

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26 minutes ago, Slaviar said:

You mean Naramon passives no longer work with EB? Shadow Step definitely does, I've used it just few days ago

Not really sure, since I've seen some threads about Madurai passives contributing less to EB, but I guess now it's clear that some passives still work, which doesn't really solve the problem of bringing an overly specific loadout for EB to function.

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