The ZEPHYR Re-work

[ObviousLee]

23 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Hmm... you've tried, I'll give you that. But man... this, and the replies you've made to the others... it actually just depresses me a little. I wanted to see if you'd come around with some actual considered thoughts on the proposed ideas, but for the most part you just haven't.

I've given the changes some thought, but I still think you're missing the theme and direction that Zephyr was created for, and you're still arguing for something that's entirely not needed for this frame. Here we go:

ROZ is unchanged, so all my thoughts stand on that.

I think you've managed to successfully adapt Strafing Run. A charge up is a decent limit on the ability, it would balance out the possibility for spam. Let's have a rundown of this new one:

Charge up air power and then cast to release a burst of air mines, up to X mines depending on rank of ability. Mines settle at a height above the ground and have a 3m trigger radius. Mines force ragdoll on enemies and drops loot(?). Damage, range of burst and range of explosions are all affected by mods.

So, not spammable anymore, and not a bad 'new 2' ability. Better. If this had been suggested in a regular rework thread where the other abilities were the same, but Tailwind and Dive Bomb were combined onto her 1 cast, this would make the list.

Ascension... I feel you've tried to band-aid this, and vastly underestimated the amount people use Bullet Jump. If you're anything like me, you just put a hotkey in and use it whenever, but people like bullet jumping, especially as Zephyr because of how floaty she is, and having any random bullet jump shift you into this flight mode would be very awkward.

Look, let's be honest with this, you're only including these abilities all in one cast to try and say you aren't changing how Zephyr plays, and to say you're adding to her, not taking away. But it's quite clear that you think Tailwind and Dive Bomb on their own aren't real abilities, so if you want to replace them so thoroughly just do it and we can argue over the results.

Likewise, if you're going to change Turbulence, change it and see what the ability is, if you're not, then don't change it. Trying to mash three whole abilities together into the same cast as situational/context based variants isn't going to work.

You've not addressed the idea of a toggle on a low-energy frame being a bad idea and you've still not given Zephyr anything to actually do while 'flying' apart from smash her head on the walls, which, I feel I need to point out, enemies don't walk on and the 'bomb's AOE as it stands isn't enough to warrant triggering on anything that's not the floor. If you're going to buff the Dive Bomb to make it applicable even on a wall, then why are you bundling it in with another ability, this would be a CC cast on its own, and a good one if it were that reliable. And even beyond this you're still talking about dogfighting style movement when actual aerial combat is non-existent in the game, you don't need to over-complicate an evasion ability like this.

So far you've come up with a decent 'flight' mechanic. But the problem is that you're basically flying to be flying. As I've said, with the lack of aerial combat, flying enemies above two or three meters, and quite a lot of low head-room tiles, you're trying to fill a niche that isn't there. Titania hovers around like a helicopter in a very tiny form, basically turning even a regular corridor into a high-ceiling tile, and suffers from being unable to bring her companion, pick up anything, use or level her regular weapons or even revive a team member. In the game as it stands, Zephyr literally has no functional reason to fly other than the consistent belief that it would be cool. It's a gimmick she doesn't need.

There isn't a purpose to it as you've described it either, you've incorporated Dive Bomb (and Turbulence) to give it some actual purpose, but the 'trigger anywhere' has been done and argued to death, and it would get very old very fast if everything you accidentally hit square on triggered an explosion, it would slow you down, drop you out of the flight mode and force you to start it all over again, likely placing you somewhere you didn't want to be (like in blast range of a heavy unit's knock down). Because you're trying to give her two new abilities as well as flight, you're forcing yourself to choose between flight and Turbulence, and in every case I and thousands of others would choose Turbulence.

As you've described it, regardless of the amount of control you want to give her for it, you would be better off just making an extendable Tailwind with a Dive Bomb function incorporated rather than trying to go to all this length to achieve what is basically going to be the same thing with more fiddly controls.

From a pure preference point of view I even disagree with the basic triggering the bomb on enemies, because you lose the potential to bypass grouped enemies in narrow corridors as other re-works would give her.

And you've still not addressed the ridiculously over-powered nature of Maelstrom. Damage numbers aren't the point, everything I said about it still stands. CC abilities only do marginal damage, Damage abilities only do marginal CC, and they certainly don't hybridise multiple ability ideas into a free-roaming, high range, damage absorbing, hard CC ability with infinite capacity until duration ends.

I want to like what you're doing, Lee, because you're a long term Zephyr player and want to see her be better. I just don't agree with the method of trying to change her so completely while arguing that you're preserving what she already does so it's okay, or the way that you're not seeing how pointless all this arguing about flying is.

Overall, I would consider either ROZ or the adapted Strafing Run as viable new abilities, if they were part of a rework where they were suggestions for a single new slot, I would even consider Ascension on its own (no Dive Bomb or Turbulence inclusion) as a suggestion for it too, but all three and a complete Tornado change too? Too much. You're not reworking Zephyr, you're creating a new frame with the same face.

If I were to be deliberately insulting (because this is an insult, which please, please, please, I'm only including as a mildly comdic reference to show you how far I think this has gone away from Zephyr, not because I'm actually insulting you) this is the Dragonball Evolution of Zephyr reworks. You've put Goku in high school, made him the unpopular dork who's in love with the popular girl, changed the Kame Hame Ha wave into Airbending, deleted Krillin entirely, made the Oozaru form into some generic minion of the dark lord, and given Piccolo yellow skin.

I haven't come around to "some of the ideas" because they're essentially what i've posted in this thread.

What you aren't getting is that Tailwind, is a flight. it's short/long dependent upon mods. She already flies. The problem is lack of control over direction of travel, distance of travel, and rate of travel. Ascension fixes this.

She was given a flight mode on release, that was short and dictated by duration, in a time where she was literally the only frame capable of achieving flight. It is still used in tandem with bullet jumping, which no, I don't macro for. I've changed a grand total of 1 keybinding in the entire time I've played this game, and that was moving push to crouch over to C. That's it. No macros, no spam button modes, nothing. Stock controls, save for c.

In regards to passing enemy groups, thats what divebomb being incorporated into ascension fixes. Now, one thing i've been toying around with in my discord group conversations is keeping the flight going on collision with enemies, but reducing the thrust by a solid tier on collision. Meaning you smash into a group of enemies, and they effectively get knocked the hell out your way, allowing for enemies you or the group wish to ignore to actually be ignored. Another addition I'm wanting to add is that ascension increases all weapon damage output up to a cap of 20%, based on thrust. so 5% per tier of thrust, which will be a self damage buff on top of one being able to bring their favorite gear and actually use it, unlike Titania.

Maelstrom has yet to be delved on, because instead of discussing how to best optimize what I've presented, we're arguing over what boils down to an "I just don't like it" conversation. Now, don't get me wrong, I enjoy arguments that are civilized as the one we've been having thus far, but you're forgetting something crucial: A player made rework is in essence, how the player feels the frame should actually play, powers as well.

I, simply put, have more experience with this singular frame, all her abilities, and what she can and cannot do, than the majority of the global playerbase. I know her better, that's pretty much it. Add to that, the one person who exceeds me on zephyr use, is in love with my rework. So when two experts are in agreement on how something should be fixed, it's usually a solid idea to listen to what they have to say.

See, here's how I see it: if you've under 50m affinity on any given frame, you're still learning. Meaning i'm still learning inaros, frost, mesa, titania, so on so forth. I won't consider myself an expert on them, until i pass my 50m mark. So until then, should someone with 50m affinity tell me to try something, I'm going to listen.

Now, You're intelligent, which is a quality i respect. So, instead of trying to debate the validity of my rework, why not help me flesh it out. This is, after all, why we're here discussing this. I feel this rework matches in line with what the developers had in mind initially, but were unable to implement due to lack of sidegrade mechanics to go off of, I.E. ArchWing.

So, I've presented the rework, and have attempted to get this thread back to where it needs to be, discussing how best to actually adjust the mechanics as i've laid them out, for the community to enjoy.

Remember, she already flies, she just does it terribly. I want that taken care of. She already does cc, just terribly. Also want that fixed. She does damage, again, just piss poor job of it, so needs fixing. Everything in my rework, keeps her functionality as is, just makes her do it better than she presently does.

[Enno69]

Sorry OP but I much, much prefer @Thaylien's suggestion than yours, no offense. Seems more coherent and more effective within the context of the game. Reposting :

Spoiler

 

"Yes, Tailwind needs to do more, not a lot more, but more. The first is to add CC, like you suggested, but rather than a 'draw' I've had a great response with the idea of a custom animation, so she can pass by enemies (instead of getting stuck on them in small corridors) and cause them to spin around several times, forcing a re-target, and with a low chance of proc'ing confusion. The second is the idea that you can hold the button to extend it (we argue about how much steering, if any, it should have, because I think we need only a little course-correction, Renova believes we would benefit from a full turning circle and vertical movement too) at the cost of energy to cross longer distances.

But Dive Bomb isn't obsolete yet, it's just under-powered. Think about it, the main complaints with the ability are this: It attempts damage and CC, but has low damage and the CC is poor and has poor range. In other words, if we buff the range, buff the damage and make the new range guarantee the CC effect (currently current enemy animations and 'weight' of the unit dictate whether we can knock them down or stagger them) by saying Zephyr's effect guarantees a knockdown on anything that isn't a boss, regardless of animation... we're starting to get a great ability. The base range could easily be doubled, and then the height scaling that applies to the damage could also affect the range, adding more the higher you went (capped at a set value so it doesn't get silly). Scale the damage off your melee mods for the damage buff (because people always say it's a big melee ground-slam, so let's make it a really, really big melee ground slam!) and you've got a very respectable ability. 

And wait, there's more! Why limit it to only a ground slam from the air? Why can we not use the same explosive power on the ground? She's an air casting frame, so let's add to it. As we have to gain height for the max-damage, max-range Bomb, how about the ability to tap/hold the button on ground to produce a cone of effect forwards that gets stronger, more range and more CC-functional the longer you hold the button? Tap to shoot a quick blast of air, like Sonic Boom, but a stagger effect and more damage, rather than Banshee's ragdoll and light damage (it can be better than Banshee's, since it's a 2, not a 1 cast), but hold to gather more force and blast a cone-of-effect wind out that ragdolls enemies in front of her for up to a capped range for the same damage as the Bomb can do. Why a charge? The same reason as why you have to gain height for the Bomb side, you have to spend time to get results, and it makes it a tactical choice; do you have height enough to do a radial slam effect? The get some height and do it. Do you have no height, and all the enemies are in front of you? Charge up and knock them all down before they can reach you. Of course, the drawback to this is that it's animation-based, so no firing while you're charging up and you're vulnerable to melee still, or even ranged if your Turbulence runs out.

And finally I have an entire discourse on Tornado. Jump over to the other thread, there's a full explanation there. The simple version is that you tie Tornado to a range, affected by mods, and the funnels patrol inside that range, any enemies that step inside the ability range are then immediately targeted by the funnels and captured faster, and more reliably, than they are right now. You can buff the entire ability by trading in that limit on how far it can travel. Every single problem you have with Tornado can be fixed mechanically if it's just confined within a fixed area, turning it into an ability that can deny areas of the map to enemies, providing hard CC as well as Tentacle Swarm and even compete with Vortex. Add in an active cancel to the ability, so you can cast it in a new location instead of waiting the whole duration, and you'll have a very strong CC area denial ability that allows Zephyr to effectively watch her own back while she's doing more important stuff.

Her kit has all the potential to be amazing, but DE didn't realise how limited they were making it when they made the stats."

 

 

Edited September 25, 2016 by Yaerion
I put the part copy-pasted under spoilers.

[Birdframe_Prime]

To quote; what we have here is a failure to communicate. Let's see if we can clear this up.

44 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

What you aren't getting is that Tailwind, is a flight. it's short/long dependent upon mods. She already flies. The problem is lack of control over direction of travel, distance of travel, and rate of travel. Ascension fixes this.

She was given a flight mode on release

First off, you're reading the abilities and creation wrong, she was given the ability to boost through the air, not a flight mode. You can quote the Bernouli principle of flight all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the game treats it as an aerial dash, not a flight. Her original concept did include an aerial hover ability, but that was discarded in favour of a jet boost for fast mobility: DE, in the original concepting, discarded sustained aerial movement.

Second, I have been convinced long ago that she could fly, that she is an aerial frame with the ability to stay in the air for extended periods of time, I get it. That argument was done and dusted months ago, and if it were put in, somehow, I would not be exactly disappointed. 

What I'm arguing is that she has very, very little reason to do so. That even with your other new abilities, flying doesn't help her because nothing else flies and all her abilities are affecting ground based opponents. The most this would achieve in the form you've created so far is the ability to crash into walls and the floor at speed, and take down a Hellion if they decided to hover. It doesn't actually do anything besides give her a gimmick.

There is no aerial combat, and Zephyr already has copious aerial movement as it is, all we need to do is fix the bugs with it and make it tie in to the rest of the game, not try and force her further into a niche that won't make her a better frame. Nothing she does would actually be achieved better with flying.

Just because she can fly doesn't mean it helps. We've see what aerial superiority does for Titania, it prevents her from picking up objects, reviving team members and activating any necessary game objects, and it's a gimmick. We can see it's a gimmick, we who play Zephyr know that our frame can get to anywhere in a map better than Titania can when she's in flight mode, hovering is not what Zephyr wants to do and we agree on that. 

Why do you want to give Zephyr a flying gimmick when it won't actually help her do anything else she does? That is my question.

56 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

In regards to passing enemy groups, thats what divebomb being incorporated into ascension fixes.

Now, I understand the subjective nature of this function, because it comes from two sides of things, but you're not seeing a mechanical issue here, so let me explain:

The passing enemy groups thing is exactly what your Dive Bomb inclusion does not do. Mechanically it's the opposite, every time you would want to go past, you would stop. Yes you could have it be a decelerate instead of a stop, but it would stop her. If not on the first enemy, then on the second, or third. Enemies in a corridor don't move out of your way even if they're ragdolled, so unless you have full pass-through it wouldn't matter how many times you rev'd up, you would slow down and stop in that corridor.

That's why I say, from a preference point of view, that I don't agree with it. It doesn't get you out of trouble, it keeps you in it. Again, this is a preference, and a small issue within the larger ones I have with the ability, let's not fixate on preference and move on with actual concerns.

55 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

Maelstrom has yet to be delved on, because instead of discussing how to best optimize what I've presented, we're arguing over what boils down to an "I just don't like it" conversation.

This is where you're not listening to what I'm saying, and I really hope you do.

Maelstrom as you've described it is ludicrously overpowered, it's not that I don't like it, I've see the ability as a suggestion several times before, but it's not just me that has pointed this out on it before, and since. If you give a roaming CC ability a large area draw and any form of damage over time higher than a few hundred, without limiting what you can do with it, or your frame while it's running, is over powered. You can't escape that.

This is why abilities like Inaros' Sandstorm fixes him into the animation and don't let him interact with anything, it's a ridiculously good CC ability on its own, and with the relatively good damage the ability has it would be too much if he was still free to shoot things, interact with the environment and whatever else he pleased..

I'll give you an example by running the numbers: If Tornado funnels held an enemy for the entire duration, at base damage and duration of 120 damage per tick for 20 seconds, that's only 2640 (if you include the double-tick damage on capture), pretty small, right? Pretty small.

How much damage do you think Rhino Stomp, the most iconic CC 4 ability in the game does at base? 800. With a single cast lasting 8 seconds. If you cast it three times in the same 20 second period, in order to re-CC the ones that stood up again, you would total only 2400 damage. This is because CC abilities, whether radial, recastable, long or short, are balanced for their damage.

If they do both damage and CC, they are limited in other ways.

You are trying to create an ability that is breaking the game balance by doing none of this, you are trying to give it damage absorb, free roaming, massive area of effect, and long-lasting CC. Please think about this and take a look at the ability again, because changes are possible.

Take away the roaming, for one, or take away the high damage. Take away the toggle is a very good idea due to the draw on a low-energy frame. Something's got to give in your design, or it will be the most broken thing since Exalted Turret Mode.

And that brings me to this point, and I really don't want you to think I'm belittling you with it, but it's a point that needs to be made:

1 hour ago, ObviousLee said:

I, simply put, have more experience with this singular frame, all her abilities

This does not equate to experience in good game design. Creativity and thought for the future of that frame, yes. I admit that you have ideas and I would love to help you flesh them out, except I can immediately see that, whether I like them or not, the ideas are going to be shot down by the people that will be reading these threads for ideas and consumer feedback.

All of my points, except where I've specifically stated, are not preference based. I'm talking game balance and mechanics, in a game which is created by neither me, nor you, and so has sets of rules that are beyond our ability to influence.

I don't want to discount how much time you've put into a specific part of the game, but if you cannot see it as part of a larger picture, where all warframes have abilities that are balanced and limited based on their game effects, then you're going to struggle to create a rework that's fair and balanced in game.

I am trying to be civil with this, believe me. But when there's big, glaring warning signs up, I have to read them out, and attempt to point them out to you, the designer, so that you don't fall into the traps of over-powering your rework idea.

1 hour ago, ObviousLee said:

So, instead of trying to debate the validity of my rework, why not help me flesh it out.

You say this, but whether you want to hear them or not, I'm pointing out legitimate flaws and issues that other players, and DE, will be looking at too. Look at Strafing Run, when I pointed out how spammable it would be, you found a way to work around that.

Why can you not see that the issues I'm concerned with need addressing the same way, not discarding under the belief that I simply don't like them? I'm not helping you flesh them out, because they're too fleshy! Ascension is bloated with all the things you're trying to work into it, I'm saying to trim it down. Maelstrom is too bloated, it needs trimming down.

Over-powering is an issue with nearly every rework I've seen, and when it's there I'm not going to ignore it, I'm going to try and get the poster to cut down and see the balance.

2 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

Remember, she already flies, she just does it terribly. I want that taken care of. She already does cc, just terribly. Also want that fixed. She does damage, again, just piss poor job of it, so needs fixing. Everything in my rework, keeps her functionality as is, just makes her do it better than she presently does.

There are five Game Mechanics in Warframe that we use, the first thing that every frame has is Mobility. They all have a base level of it that's much higher than any of the enemies we face and it's how we achieve area dominance over our foes. It is, however, not something that actually affects the game world. The other four are Offense, Defense, Support and CC, these are the main mechanics that affect enemies and your team, affect the game world around you.

What most frames do is specialise in two or more of the main four, some have a solid grounding in all four, and some will sacrifice an ability for more Mobility, although when they do it has to be a superior form of mobility to the norm. However, if a frame only has one main aspect to go on top of their mobility, they are underpowered or boring. The most irritating to play are those that attempt to cover more than one of the main four, but fail.

Zephyr attempts offense, and fails, she attempts CC and is unreliable, she sacrifices one ability to Mobility that people treat as an either/or to existing mobility that all frames have, but has a solid Defense. In other words, she's good at one thing, Defense. To improve Zephyr, to make her better, all you have to do is fix her Offense and CC, meaning that she would have three main functions and additional Mobility, making her play better within the game and function as well as any of the other frames.

Buffing Dive Bomb's damage and range would give her Offense back and boost her basic CC, giving Tailwind a utility CC would compliment this without majorly changing the ability itself and doesn't add more needless mobility to a mobile frame, and fixing Tornado the way I mentioned earlier by capping the range and allowing the entire rest of the ability to be buffed, would give her full area denial CC. She would then have Offense, Defense, CC and Mobility. She doesn't do Support, and I don't personally believe she needs it, but people are free to add what they think she needs.

Those are considerations I make on re-works: Does the frame already have that aspect? Do they do that aspect well? How can we fix it if they don't? How can we add new aspects to round them out if they're lacking those aspects?

Try to think about your abilities from that point of view, fix her, add to her, but remember that her existing abilities can do what she needs in game, if we adjust them.

 

And finally, as my aside from the main conversation, this is a personal comment from me to you:

1 hour ago, ObviousLee said:

I know her better, that's pretty much it. Add to that, the one person who exceeds me on zephyr use, is in love with my rework. So when two experts are in agreement on how something should be fixed, it's usually a solid idea to listen to what they have to say.

This right here? It's arrogance. And it makes people listen to you less, not more. Don't discard anyone's thoughts, from the newest player to the most experienced, answer thought for thought and discussion for discussion. Even then you may come across as abrasive or superior-sounding quite a lot, because text is a poor communication tool, but discussion and not trying to say that just because you have more knowledge on a subject somebody should listen will get you further. Other people have ideas, and in many cases, vastly differing experiences that can offer surprising view-points.

I was convinced, a month ago, that combining Tailwind and Dive Bomb into the same ability, in order to open up 2 as a new option, and fixing Tornado as a damage dealer was the only way Zephyr could be improved at all. My discussions here have given me new ideas and new options and a solid grasp of what DE looks for in a rework. Maybe, just maybe, I might have more experience at Rework Ideas than you, but I'm not going to push that on you. Hear me out and give my thoughts due consideration, and I'll continue to do the same for you.

Also, thanks @Enno69 I appreciate the vote of confidence.

[ObviousLee]

23 hours ago, Thaylien said:

snip

I'll respond after the work for the day is done. Give myself some time to mull things over.

ok, lets start with the important point.

No, it's not arrogance. It's fact. My experience with the frame is flat out superior to almost the entirety of the community. Now, if I were acting superior because of that fact then yes, I'd be acting arrogant. I'm not superior in any fashion, and I'm not ignoring new information. What I'm doing is telling you that if it can be done, I've already done it. Every time a new enemy comes out, I test zephyr against it. New tilesets, same thing. I keep playing until i know intrinsically how to handle the situation on sight, as opposed to trying to figure it out. Where I am in terms of use, skill, and knowledge, is the expert level. I cannot say the same regarding other frames, as I've not spent nearly the amount of time/effort on them in comparison to zephyr.

When you go skydiving, you do so in tandem for a minimum of 25 jumps, then you have to take a test to even qualify for solo jumps. The instructor, is an expert in his field, and telling you what will and will not work, doesn't make them arrogant. It means they have the experience you lack, and know again, what does and does not work. You wouldn't tell a skydiving instructor how to properly perform a successful solo jump, you ask your instructor how its done. Same thing goes into flying an actual plane, you need several courses completed including but not limited to: basic aviation theory, radio call procedures with ATC(Air Traffic Control), in depth knowledge of all your internal systems like gauges, air/fuel mixtures, how to read the weather through METTAR data, as well as how to instantly recognize any/all issues and respond accordingly in a calm fashion. Your instructors will teach you this, and again, you'd not be calling them arrogant. Experts in their field are asked questions, not told how it works.

I'm not saying i'm better, i'm saying i know more than the majority does. Which is again, a fact. I'm not looking down on a single person with less experience than myself in the slightest, it's simply I see what you're wanting to do, and I'm telling you that based off my obscene knowledge of how this frame works, my suggestion I feel would work the best for the majority. Emphasis on feel. I could very well be wrong, and i'm ok with this, but I don't think that I am as again, I know her better than most. Please note that again, the singular person who has more experience and usage on her, is all for my idea. Meaning that there are two people who make up the bulk of her use, and they are in agreement of how we feel that she should be changed.

Now, that that's out the way, lets get down to brass tacks again. Starting with Roz. As is, it's a fine ability that works in design on par with Titania's spellbind. Not sure if you've played around with it but the cast range is freaking huuuuuuge.  my current build that i use for raids/sorties has a 100m cast range. Not saying that Roz should have a similar cast range, but your issue was Z being locked into the same tileset to take advantage of the ability yes? well, the very same thing could be said about a multitude of frames that utilize abilities that stop enemies from shooting at you, and nobody ever seems to have any issue with it. I've yet to see a thread asking for molt to follow you around, but who knows, might happen. So effectively, the ability in of itself is honestly perfect as is in my eyes, but, if you had to make changes regarding it, what would you suggest?

Strafing run, pretty sure we're both ok on this one, but again, if you had to alter the ability slightly, what would you suggest that could bring more use out of it?

Ascension - merging all 3 abilities makes more sense to me, as it feels like thats how it should have been from the getgo. I've still yet to update the op with increased damage per thrust rating, but i'll get to it once we reach a form of consensus on all the moves in the kit. and for clarification, she was created in a time where there was no parallel mechanics to actually support flight. Titania, uses the old archwing flight mode, meaning DE didn't just create one from scratch, they copypasta'd it and called it good, as it was an already existing mechanic. But, as with the other moves, if you could improve it, how would you do so?

Maelstrom - This one, needs work. So, lets say we decrease the amount of damage the nado can absorb, like by half for starters. If that's not enough then by all means we can work on it till it is enough. Getting rid of the roving attribute is honestly fine by me. As far as the toggle, the only reason i went for toggle was due to the ability to turn it on/off as opposed to waiting for the duration to fade out. High duration builds don't work so well with nado, or her other abilities save for turbulence, as nado is your oh crap button, that you cannot use if it's already up. So, if we change it to cast with an ability to cancel it while maintaining duration based, then I'm all kinds of happy.

thoughts?

23 hours ago, Enno69 said:

Sorry OP but I much, much prefer @Thaylien's suggestion than yours, no offense. Seems more coherent and more effective within the context of the game. Reposting :

 

if you're not going to present your own points, but instead the points of someone who is already active within the thread itself, then you're not contributing to the conversation at hand. So, with all the polite words I can muster, be a part of the conversation, or don't post.

So, if you've some actual feedback, present it so we may discuss it. Otherwise, there are possibly other threads that will benefit from your activity on them.

Edited September 26, 2016 by [DE]Danielle
Removed antagonizing comment

[SergeiTheBeast]

Honestly, I'd like to see her move away from being seen as flight and prefer her to become the Wind elemental frame. I had a few ideas about this but didn't think posting another thread ENTIRELY was needed.

 

Make her a full wind elemental

Abilities could include things like

1. Gust - Zephyr summons her ally the wind to rag doll enemies in front of her dealing a small amount of damage

2. Run like the wind- Zephyr calls on the wind to double her running speed and causing a wind tunnel effect around her as she sprints. Any items are drawn to her and any enemies not strong enough to withstand the force are knocked down.

3. I would leave as her bullet dodge ability. I like that as it is.

4. I like the tornadoes as they are as well.

 

These ideas aren't too in depth I know, but I feel like this is better now that we have Titania with true flight.

[ObviousLee]

1 hour ago, SergeiTheBeast said:

Honestly, I'd like to see her move away from being seen as flight and prefer her to become the Wind elemental frame. I had a few ideas about this but didn't think posting another thread ENTIRELY was needed.

 

Make her a full wind elemental

Abilities could include things like

1. Gust - Zephyr summons her ally the wind to rag doll enemies in front of her dealing a small amount of damage

2. Run like the wind- Zephyr calls on the wind to double her running speed and causing a wind tunnel effect around her as she sprints. Any items are drawn to her and any enemies not strong enough to withstand the force are knocked down.

3. I would leave as her bullet dodge ability. I like that as it is.

4. I like the tornadoes as they are as well.

 

These ideas aren't too in depth I know, but I feel like this is better now that we have Titania with true flight.

the problem with this, although i DO like the idea of a genuine wind themed frame, fact of the matter is yet again, she's covered in flight surfaces. she flew before a standardized flight system was implemented, and titania does everything that zephyr does, just much much better. Titania and wukong are both capable of actual flight, no reason birdframe shouldn't.

Edited September 26, 2016 by ObviousLee

[SergeiTheBeast]

46 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

the problem with this, although i DO like the idea of a genuine wind themed frame, fact of the matter is yet again, she's covered in flight surfaces. she flew before a standardized flight system was implemented, and titania does everything that zephyr does, just much much better. Titania and wukong are both capable of actual flight, no reason birdframe shouldn't.

While I agree with the addition of Parkour 2.0 all of her "Flight" abilities are made pointless as basic parkour is often superior. I'm thinking with her re-work a deluxe skin could compliment the rework idea.

[ObviousLee]

1 minute ago, SergeiTheBeast said:

While I agree with the addition of Parkour 2.0 all of her "Flight" abilities are made pointless as basic parkour is often superior. I'm thinking with her re-work a deluxe skin could compliment the rework idea.

i agree. The way i see it, she was always meant to fly, but the system simply didn't exist at that point in time to make it happen. Then archwing came about, which titania uses as her flight mode. The mechanics are there, they just need to be linked up properly. Hence my rework suggestion. Let her be faster, do better cc, and pump out a bit of damage in the process, all while keeping the aviation effect of tailwind, just making it not useless.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Alrighty then. First let's get the subjective out of the way:

On 9/25/2016 at 11:40 PM, ObviousLee said:

Now, if I were acting superior because of that fact then yes, I'd be acting arrogant.

I'll point out again that text is a difficult format to communicate in, the paragraph I quoted came across as very arrogant. Further than that, throughout, throwing your gameplay numbers around is simple showboating, it impresses only those impressed with numbers, and gives us no indication of your actual skill. It's a non-starter in a conversation where we're supposed to take you seriously and look at your creativity instead of your e-penis.

Now, moving on. Second, let's talk about the issues. (Third, I'll present a rework based on yours that would, on paper, work in the current state of play.)

On 9/25/2016 at 11:40 PM, ObviousLee said:

Ascension - merging all 3 abilities makes more sense to me, as it feels like thats how it should have been from the getgo.

I'm sorry, but it doesn't make sense to me. Not from gameplay design, and not from ease of use. It's needlessly complicated and bloats the entire cast. And, again, I just don't see that there's any need for this mode in the game, not at speed, not with this limited applied functionality.

The only reason Titania got flight at all was because of how limited the flight mode was; it takes away the need for high ceilings and large spaces that full-size flight would need by shrinking her, it takes away the problem of what weapons to bring by giving her unique ones, and it takes away the problem of companions and team-mates, of carrying objects, by simply removing those functions. She is incredibly limited because of all the things that would be difficult to do with a flying frame. Your version doesn't have those limits, and I admit it doesn't need some of them because the constant movement means you'd need to stop in order to perform those actions anyway, but it wouldn't stop the problems that would have occurred with Titania from occurring now.

It also doesn't have the benefits. Titania's small size means that proportionally she can travel a long way vertically and not be out of range of enemies, Zephyr would hit ceilings and objects quicker and more often in 90% of tiles due to proportionally higher speed and greater size. Additionally this poportional difference simply means that Titania's free flight addresses the problem I mentioned before of enemies not flying, sure some hover a little above the ground, but none of them more than a couple of meters, Titania can go many of her body-lengths above the ground and only get to the same height as an osprey unit. Zephyr doing the same would leave her too far above the enemy and her only option then would be to come back down to fight.

That is the reason why she currently only has Tailwind and Dive Bomb, because the only reasons she has to get that height is to evade and then come down again, she can't actually do anything up there. It's why I say that flight is a gimmick, because it doesn't actually achieve anything.

I would love to talk to you about improving it, but as I said you've created well thought out flight mechanics already. They would work. What you haven't recognised is whether she should. Unless DE have secretly been planning to re-define the game and introduce units that can fly as well, there isn't a point.

And I would love to find a way to improve the ability as you've described it, but I can't because it's too full of the other parts. My suggestions for helping you improve the ability are to take away the mashing together of the other parts, that's my improvement; stop mashing the other abilities in.

If you just created a dedicated flight ability, it could be part of her 1 cast, and you could then put ROZ or Strafing Run on 3 and buff them up to more than they are. More on that later.

On 9/25/2016 at 11:40 PM, ObviousLee said:

Maelstrom - This one, needs work. So, lets say we decrease the amount of damage the nado can absorb, like by half for starters. If that's not enough then by all means we can work on it till it is enough. Getting rid of the roving attribute is honestly fine by me. As far as the toggle, the only reason i went for toggle was due to the ability to turn it on/off as opposed to waiting for the duration to fade out. High duration builds don't work so well with nado, or her other abilities save for turbulence, as nado is your oh crap button, that you cannot use if it's already up. So, if we change it to cast with an ability to cancel it while maintaining duration based, then I'm all kinds of happy.

Thank. You. The things that are causing the current Tornado to be crap are the following: The free roving, the slow movement, the enemy/loot scattering and the long duration of annoyance this causes. It's unreliable at base.

The enemy seek is particularly in question because currently it's done on a per-funnel basis. If there are no enemies in range of that funnel's seek, it wanders aimlessly to find them, the free roving then means that funnels can leave the nav-mesh and go beyond where the enemies can reach, forever condemning them to spin in corners or out of the line of battle and do nothing for the entire cast. That can last, on a good duration, 43-45 seconds, so we all know how annoying that is.

If this is what you want to fix, then I have lots of suggestions that can fix those, you don't have to change the entire ability, only tweak it.

So.

This brings me on to the third thing; a rework based on yours that makes sense from a game-design point of view, most importantly one that can be implemented by DE. So, here we go:

Zephyr; Light, but deceivingly lethal.

Passive; Light Weight. Zephyr's light construction and streamlined shape allow her unprecedented control in the air, falling slower and able to steer herself through the air. This extends to her Aim Glide, the initial aiming action negates her downwards momentum completely for a few seconds.

1, Ascension. Zephyr manipulates the air, thrusting herself skywards, and soaring through the air. Zephyr has full mobility while in the air and will fly faster with repeated presses of the shift key (adjusted because W might be just held down for 'forwards' too easily), pressing backwards will slow her down again and continuing to hold will slow her down fully will return her to normal and allow her to fall to the ground once more. Alternatively casting the ability again while mid-flight will send Zephyr hurtling forwards to create an explosive impact on contact with an enemy or the floor.

Augment; Dizzying Ascension. Recasting Ascension while in flight will blast Zephyr straight ahead, any enemies caught in her wake will spin uncontrollably and some may even become confused and target their allies.

2, Strafing Run. Charge up the air to create a deadly explosive that Zephyr drops in her wake. Cast from the air or the ground, Zephyr first charges up to 4 deadly balls of air and, on command, releases them behind her. The traps will settle gently above the ground and, on contact with an enemy, burst for high damage, knocking down anything in range. Be sure to time your run carefully, Tenno, once Zephyr releases her payload, it doesn't last for long.

Augment; Chaff. Charge up to 12 micro-traps that scatter further and knock down any opponent that comes near at the cost of reduced damage.

3, Cross Winds. Zephyr summons the winds to protect herself and others. On casting Zephyr gains a shield of air that deflects all incoming projectiles, however recasting while Cross Winds is active will drop the shield as an area of defensive winds that slows enemies and deflect projectiles for the remaining duration. Casting Cross Winds again summons the shield back to Zephyr for the remaining duration.

(If you're going to make the player choose between Turbulence and another ability, make it a tactical one.)

Augment; Trade Winds. When dropped, instead of slowing enemies, all killed within the range have a 25% chance to drop double items, including resources, credits, mods and life support packets (very useful in survivals).

4, Tornado. Zephyr summons a mighty storm of twisters to capture her foes. On cast, up to four tornado funnels form and patrol the area of Zephyr's storm, seeking any enemies inside relentlessly until captured. Captured enemies are dealt damage over time for ten seconds and then launched vertically, causing them to fall back inside the storm area and be re-captured by another funnel for as long as the duration lasts. The funnels absorb the elemental damage type of your weapon, and although this means that you cannot shoot through a funnel, the enemy cannot either turning each funnel into a shield for allies. The ability can be actively cancelled with a second press of the ability button before the duration ends.

Any enemy stepping into the range of the cast is instantly targeted for capture and the nearest funnel will pursue them. Funnels are locked to the Nav-Mesh and so will never be where an enemy isn't able to go, and they move fast enough to capture a running target (although not by much, give them a chance). The upward release stops the scattering of enemies and loot, and the fact that it's a release function means that no more enemies will be pressed against the ceiling and unable to be killed because the funnels can't be shot through, if they can't be launched, they'll just be dropped. The re-capture means that no enemy will be on their feet within that range, and the funnels having their own area of capture around them means that a funnel on the edge of the 'storm' can actually pick up enemies beyond it, although they won't target them specifically. The speed and reliability means that the damage over time function can be balanced by DE, not by us, by simply adjusting the ticks or the 'on-capture' bonus damage.

Interactions can include things like, Ascension fly-bys deal double damage to enemies inside the funnels, but don't knock them free. Doesn't need to be much, but it's something.

Augment; Funnel Clouds. Summon up to 12 smaller funnels that deal increased damage and stagger enemies on contact, the base range of Tornado is increased by 50%. (So a bunch of enemies being hunted down by tiny-nados and damaged constantly, nice, right? Especially if you drop a Cross Winds to slow them down.)

Well.

How does that sound?

Edited September 27, 2016 by Thaylien
confusing terminology

[ObviousLee]

On 9/26/2016 at 5:06 AM, Thaylien said:

snip

i'll have to take a look this evening, as things have been rather hectic. I'll have my feedback for you tonight.