Tank Mirage - Eclipse Fix / Augment!

[main_antagonist]

An excellent explanation below from @TaylorsContraction

1 hour ago, TaylorsContraction said:

What is a light or dark area is not well defined, nor is it easy to define such areas due to the variations of graphical setting across users. Let's say grass is introduced on earth tile-sets. Will being inside the grass count as dark, but jumping over it count as light (assuming daytime)? Are cast shadows from other players counted as "darkened" area (it isn't)?

Let's say the ability works off the client, based on the client's settings and thus ignores all other players in the mission. Does casting prism automatically illuminate an area making it light ? Similarly Mirage's clones block light rays around her unless she's looking at them directly, thus are they creating a darker environment? What I'm getting at, is this ability doesn't react to dynamic effects like that. All you have is a visual cue based on how the buff looks depending on where you stand. Also levels of brightness / darkness make no difference, it's either light or dark. So if you're in a very lit environment, some less bright areas will still count as light. It is simply too arbitrary to use the ability as was intended. Where imo the intended use was for players to stay in the shadows if they were on the defensive, and out in the open if they are on the offensive. All this is not an issue except in those instances where you really need damage reduction and frantically try to find an area that is considered dark but die before doing so. Sure on certain tile-sets I've memorized certain areas as light vs dark, but imo if an ability relies on you memorizing tile lighting configurations, it's not a good ability.

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Eclipse was given the ability to recast while it is already active which is a great feature but I'm hoping to improve upon that further with either an Augment or change to her Eclipse ability and when it is cast.

As it currently works if you stand in the light you get a damage buff and if you stand in the shadows you get a damage reduction buff ... the problem is sometimes an area on certain planets/tile sets looks like it should be a shadow or a light source and you end up either thinking you're doing more damage or taking less damage which can get you wiped out.

The change I'm suggesting is that depending on where you stand upon the initial cast or recast locks it in until the ability expires or you recast.

So if you want to play mirage as a bruiser instead of running around synoid simulor spamming the heck out of the map >___>  You simply Stand in the shadows and cast and until the ability expires or you recast the ability while standing in the light you have that damage reduction until you choose for it to change or it runs out instead of constantly second guessing "am I buffed for damage or am I buffed for damage reduction?" darting your eyes from enemy to yourself to the light source to yourself to the enemies.

People who run around spamming the Synoid Simulor won't know what I'm talking about because they just play mirage to nuke everything that comes in their line of sight ...

But if you want to play her as a bruiser for melee etc it can be pretty stressful on your eyes, constantly looking at yourself and around yourself to see if you have the buff you want and why the buff you want isn't being applied.

To further this point when you are buffing eclipse for damage reduction you can recast before the ability duration reaches zero so you are able to keep your damage reduction continuously ... but what is the point of that when any light source turns the floor into lava, transforming you from a tank into a high damage glass cannon and vice versa.

It's a very subtle change and if somebody wants to come in here and be salty well your point is invalid because at the end of the day I did suggest this could be an augment which wouldn't force you to play her the way I'm suggesting as a change. Hope for some positive feedback from Mirage mains have a good day everyone.

V---------------------------------EDIT---------------------------------V

To show that mirage is viable as a tank I went against level 85 enemies on Sedna - Vodyanoi.  I still died due to reduced ability duration modifier for the Rathuum arena and that I was trying to die so show a comparison between eclipse buffs, you can see for yourself in the video below I die with the shadow buff the moment the ability ends from the 'reduced ability duration' arena debuff.

 

V---------------------------------EDIT #2---------------------------------V

 

I got the full duration shown here and what it's capable of instead of the 'reduced ability duration' debuff I got the 'tougher enemies' instead. Somebody might ask why I don't do this in the simulacrum ... that's because the entire area is a light source.

 

Edited October 19, 2016 by main_antagonist
added video

[main_antagonist]

Looks like nobody plays tank mirage XD

[bl4ckhunter]

Now that is a good idea, i don't play tank mirage but honestly i most of the time just don't bother with eclipse since the "lighting" is so unpredictable that it isn't worth the bother/energy cost even at high levels as you'll plow throught most things even without it  and i can easily see the value of being actually able to choose instead of being at the whims of a bugged lighting that gets ever more so bugged with every new tile added.

Edited September 26, 2016 by bl4ckhunter

[main_antagonist]

2 hours ago, bl4ckhunter said:

Now that is a good idea, i don't play tank mirage but honestly i most of the time just don't bother with eclipse since the "lighting" is so unpredictable that it isn't worth the bother/energy cost even at high levels as you'll plow throught most things even without it  and i can easily see the value of being actually able to choose instead of being at the whims of a bugged lighting that gets ever more so bugged with every new tile added.

Yeah it's pretty much the only reason I don't play her for more than a few missions here and there ... I remember how much this bugs me and then I shelf her and go with something that works reliably.

[main_antagonist]

I've updated my original post at the top with proof on video she is viable as a tank for any sceptics, also demonstrating how weak she is in comparison without the shadow buff.
If anybody wants to try tank mirage for themselves here is my build below. I have a set of Arcane Grace to keep my health regenerating a little bit more noticeable on frames such as Inaros but still viable with this build!

Edited April 5, 2017 by main_antagonist

[RedShiftZero]

This idea seems like it would remove a lot of frustration around the ability. Would it be a worthwhile contribution of an idea at all for the Eclipse icon to change when the ability isn't active, so you know for sure what you'll get when you cast?

[(PSN)HSomDevil]

Quote

So if you want to play mirage as a bruiser instead of running around synoid simulor spamming the heck out of the map

Spoiler

All joking aside:

Quote

The change I'm suggesting is that depending on where you stand upon the initial cast or recast locks it in until the ability expires or you recast.

This is an excellent idea. Yes, please!

[TaylorsContraction]

Or how about hold to cast the tanky version, and quick press to cast the damage? I realize this may be too easy but it gives players total control over her abilities. I have no idea what is considered "dark" and "light" in this game. Everyone's graphic settings are different. I don't use bloom for example or motion blur. Colors look way different with "adaptive exposure" etc...

[main_antagonist]

4 minutes ago, TaylorsContraction said:

Or how about hold to cast the tanky version, and quick press to cast the damage? I realize this may be too easy but it gives players total control over her abilities. I have no idea what is considered "dark" and "light" in this game. Everyone's graphic settings are different. I don't use bloom for example or motion blur. Colors look way different with "adaptive exposure" etc...

That's a good point!

[RealPandemonium]

Mirage already has a lot going for her (to a problematic degree.)  She doesn't need buffs.  Mastering Eclipse only makes her potential even more scary.

[main_antagonist]

On 05/10/2016 at 11:26 AM, RealPandemonium said:

Mirage already has a lot going for her (to a problematic degree.)  She doesn't need buffs.  Mastering Eclipse only makes her potential even more scary.

I don't see anybody else having a problem with my proposal, perhaps you can make a thread of your own explain in detail your reasons why and link me in a PM thanks. I'd like this to topic to stay on track because if you note the title of this topic it's a 'fix' not a buff the ability is already a buff depending on if you are in the light or the dark so I don't understand what you're implying.

The reasons why this is a fix or tweak to change how it works is simply that the ability is flawed and isn't consistent with the lighting in this game not to mention the previous explanations others have given in this topic myself included that you are disregarding. 

My topic also compromises by being a suggested augment so I don't appreciate you taking it out of context.

In comparison to Equinox's 'Maim' I wouldn't even consider Mirage scary. Being able to have 250% range on my Equinox and NUKE an entire tile on the map without having any power strength mods seems scary to me.

 

On 05/10/2016 at 11:26 AM, RealPandemonium said:

Mastering Eclipse only makes her potential even more scary.

Also on a side note potential for what? That people will stop using her only with synoid simulor lol, I don't see the problem with that I've had enough of void fissures trying to pick up reactant that is flying 10m in the air because nobody uses the alt-fire on their Simulor to detonate the vortexes. "Potential" didn't Lotus say she was ripping the heads of sentients in her quest?

I'm no expert but sentients with their 4 damage reduction gates + damage reduction linking aren't exactly weak and glass cannon mirage wouldn't really be able to pull off getting up close to multiple sentients and ripping their heads off. If anything tank mirage has always been viable ever since her lore.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Hidden_Messages

"I see the Sentients crashing down on her, dying in overwhelming numbers. Now she's out of energy, I'm telling her to go but she's laughing, tearing their heads off as they swarm.

I have recovered something from the memory... a blueprint."

Edited October 7, 2016 by main_antagonist

[bl4ckhunter]

On 5/10/2016 at 3:26 AM, RealPandemonium said:

Mirage already has a lot going for her (to a problematic degree.)  She doesn't need buffs.  Mastering Eclipse only makes her potential even more scary.

well, given that mirage also has only 3 abilities, it'd be nice if they worked reliably at least. 

[main_antagonist]

On 07/10/2016 at 8:06 AM, bl4ckhunter said:

well, given that mirage also has only 3 abilities, it'd be nice if they worked reliably at least. 

Yeah I 100% agree the eclipse is too iffy it's not a consistent experience and on higher levels you're left getting one shot if you don't stand in the shadows, which on some maps can be very limiting which confines you to one spot. Sleight of hand is pretty bad but I feel like it was band-aided pretty well with the augment IMO it would be nice if it worked that way innate but I'll take it :P 

A note to all please stay on topic I don't want this turning into a discussion about sleight of hand because that already has an augment that moderately improves the ability. I would like to see a change to Eclipse or an Augment to be implemented to solve the problem.

[Ivan_Rid]

Thing is having a consistent damage resistance buff would mean you can get a consistent damage buff, and thats exactly how it would be used 99% of time.

Overall Eclipse is an ability with interesting an unique mechanic, but it does not make it a good ability.

I think making it a toggle ability would be better, it would slowly charge up to cap damage/resistance while you stay in a light or in a shadow, while both killing and taking hits (even on clones) would increase the charge rate.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Ivan_Rid

[main_antagonist]

6 hours ago, Ivan_Rid said:

Thing is having a consistent damage resistance buff would mean you can get a consistent damage buff, and thats exactly how it would be used 99% of time.

The way most maps are designed they have excess lighting on them so you are pretty much damage buff only for the majority of the mission it's rare to get the damage resistance buff period. That's why it needs to be changed or have an augment to make it more functional know what I mean?

6 hours ago, Ivan_Rid said:

I think making it a toggle ability would be better, it would slowly charge up to cap damage/resistance while you stay in a light or in a shadow, while both killing and taking hits (even on clones) would increase the charge rate.

Well why even bother having a damage resistance buff anymore this is a straight up nerf of a suggestion because if you're in a high level mission you'll get one shotted before the buff is high enough to keep you alive and the same goes vice versa for the damage buff ... My concept seems mostly well received I'm not saying you're not entitled to an opinion I'm just telling you now if DE made that decision to take your alternative into account ... there would be salt from the community from every mirage player like you've never seen the dev bashing would get so out of hand they'd probably just revert it back. I could be wrong but imagine if iron skin, warding halo, link, blessing any damage resistance ability had to slowly scale up after being activated people who play to be tanks or bruisers would just die it would kill the class type off and nobody would play those frames anymore you know?  To further explain this that's why warding halo and iron skin and snow globe have a invulnerability period upon activation without it you'd die before it reached max capacity. 

Edited October 18, 2016 by main_antagonist

[HalfDarkShadow]

On 9/23/2016 at 6:11 PM, main_antagonist said:

The change I'm suggesting is that depending on where you stand upon the initial cast or recast locks it in until the ability expires or you recast.

Hell, even if they wanted to take the easy way out and just went with which buff you'll be getting depending on how bright your energy colour is (think Equinox) would honestly do miles better at this point over the inconsistencies she has with the ability now lol.

That aside, I do hope they take a re-look at her Eclipse ability and maybe go with something akin to your proposal. At least then we can decide what buff we want on the fly.
A personal side note, this especially would be great since I'm not a fan (aesthetically speaking) of her 1st ability at all ^{too much shiyt going on, bleh} so I tend to just use her 3rd ability at least for some kind of damage mitigation (when applicable via darker tilesets).

That, and I mainly only use my Explosive Legerdemain build(s) since Slight of Hand is simply one of my favourite abilities in game (at least on a conceptual level lol), and the added CC from the Augment mod (all dem freeze procs) is very lovely lol. But I digress :P

[taiiat]

the age old solution to this age old complaint - is to have light and dark more accurately reflect actually visible light and dark, rather than how inconsistent it always has been.

it's intended for the Ability to be about Player Placement, rather than just an anytime toggleable(or locked on cast) bonus of both sides whenever you feel like it.
as if it doesn't utilize Player Placement for the Ability, then.... it's identical to any other Ability that increases Damage you deal or any Ability that decreases Damage you take. generico supreme stat buff. i.e. dull and lame.

Edited October 18, 2016 by taiiat

[main_antagonist]

7 hours ago, HalfDarkShadow said:

Hell, even if they wanted to take the easy way out and just went with which buff you'll be getting depending on how bright your energy colour is (think Equinox) would honestly do miles better at this point over the inconsistencies she has with the ability now lol.

That aside, I do hope they take a re-look at her Eclipse ability and maybe go with something akin to your proposal. At least then we can decide what buff we want on the fly.
A personal side note, this especially would be great since I'm not a fan (aesthetically speaking) of her 1st ability at all ^{too much shiyt going on, bleh} so I tend to just use her 3rd ability at least for some kind of damage mitigation (when applicable via darker tilesets).

That, and I mainly only use my Explosive Legerdemain build(s) since Slight of Hand is simply one of my favourite abilities in game (at least on a conceptual level lol), and the added CC from the Augment mod (all dem freeze procs) is very lovely lol. But I digress :P

I agree 200%

Also kudos for being another Explosive Legerdemain user that augment I love it!

7 hours ago, taiiat said:

the age old solution to this age old complaint - is to have light and dark more accurately reflect actually visible light and dark, rather than how inconsistent it always has been.

it's intended for the Ability to be about Player Placement, rather than just an anytime toggleable(or locked on cast) bonus of both sides whenever you feel like it.
as if it doesn't utilize Player Placement for the Ability, then.... it's identical to any other Ability that increases Damage you deal or any Ability that decreases Damage you take. generico supreme stat buff. i.e. dull and lame.

There have been lots of things in this game that were intended to work a certain way and were not well received and this is one of them. I like the only the fly buff lock that I've suggested other people in this topic like it too what you're suggesting will still create the same problems you become limited, it is unreliable etc. The list of problems with it goes on I've already suggested that my alteration could be an augment at the least but the majority of people here don't like how it works currently so why release an augment when it seems that the general consensus is to fix/change it. Know what I'm saying?

[RealPandemonium]

3 hours ago, main_antagonist said:

the general consensus is to fix/change it. Know what I'm saying?

If you put a 99999k damage 100m aoe proposal up to a community vote, it would probably pass.  General consensus is not a good indicator of what the game really needs.  Design quality has plummeted since DE tried taking player feedback seriously.  In general, players don't know what they really want and clutter feedback channels with toxic stuff that hurts the game in the long run.  

All this power needs is for bright/dark areas to be clearly defined so that the player can play around that accordingly.  

[main_antagonist]

I'm glad that some Mirage mains understand the frustration and agree that my idea would be a good solution :)

 

On 28/09/2016 at 11:30 PM, (PS4)HSomDevil said:

  Reveal hidden contents

All joking aside:

This is an excellent idea. Yes, please!

 

On 29/09/2016 at 0:28 AM, TaylorsContraction said:

Or how about hold to cast the tanky version, and quick press to cast the damage? I realize this may be too easy but it gives players total control over her abilities. I have no idea what is considered "dark" and "light" in this game. Everyone's graphic settings are different. I don't use bloom for example or motion blur. Colors look way different with "adaptive exposure" etc...

 

On 07/10/2016 at 8:06 AM, bl4ckhunter said:

well, given that mirage also has only 3 abilities, it'd be nice if they worked reliably at least. 

 

12 hours ago, HalfDarkShadow said:

Hell, even if they wanted to take the easy way out and just went with which buff you'll be getting depending on how bright your energy colour is (think Equinox) would honestly do miles better at this point over the inconsistencies she has with the ability now lol.

That aside, I do hope they take a re-look at her Eclipse ability and maybe go with something akin to your proposal. At least then we can decide what buff we want on the fly.
A personal side note, this especially would be great since I'm not a fan (aesthetically speaking) of her 1st ability at all ^{too much shiyt going on, bleh} so I tend to just use her 3rd ability at least for some kind of damage mitigation (when applicable via darker tilesets).

That, and I mainly only use my Explosive Legerdemain build(s) since Slight of Hand is simply one of my favourite abilities in game (at least on a conceptual level lol), and the added CC from the Augment mod (all dem freeze procs) is very lovely lol. But I digress :P

 

[TaylorsContraction]

3 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

If you put a 99999k damage 100m aoe proposal up to a community vote, it would probably pass.  General consensus is not a good indicator of what the game really needs.  Design quality has plummeted since DE tried taking player feedback seriously.  In general, players don't know what they really want and clutter feedback channels with toxic stuff that hurts the game in the long run.  

All this power needs is for bright/dark areas to be clearly defined so that the player can play around that accordingly.  

Your first paragraph is nonesense to be honest. I very much doubt the majority would agree to that. As for your last sentence, therein lies the problem. What is a light or dark area is not well defined, nor is it easy to define such areas due to the variations of graphical setting across users. Let's say grass is introduced on earth tile-sets. Will being inside the grass count as dark, but jumping over it count as light (assuming daytime)? Are cast shadows from other players counted as "darkened" area (it isn't)?

Let's say the ability works off the client, based on the client's settings and thus ignores all other players in the mission. Does casting prism automatically illuminate an area making it light ? Similarly Mirage's clones block light rays around her unless she's looking at them directly, thus are they creating a darker environment? What I'm getting at, is this ability doesn't react to dynamic effects like that. All you have is a visual cue based on how the buff looks depending on where you stand. Also levels of brightness / darkness make no difference, it's either light or dark. So if you're in a very lit environment, some less bright areas will still count as light. It is simply too arbitrary to use the ability as was intended. Where imo the intended use was for players to stay in the shadows if they were on the defensive, and out in the open if they are on the offensive. All this is not an issue except in those instances where you really need damage reduction and frantically try to find an area that is considered dark but die before doing so. Sure on certain tile-sets I've memorized certain areas as light vs dark, but imo if an ability relies on you memorizing tile lighting configurations, it's not a good ability.

[main_antagonist]

1 hour ago, TaylorsContraction said:

Your first paragraph is nonesense to be honest. I very much doubt the majority would agree to that. As for your last sentence, therein lies the problem. What is a light or dark area is not well defined, nor is it easy to define such areas due to the variations of graphical setting across users. Let's say grass is introduced on earth tile-sets. Will being inside the grass count as dark, but jumping over it count as light (assuming daytime)? Are cast shadows from other players counted as "darkened" area (it isn't)?

Let's say the ability works off the client, based on the client's settings and thus ignores all other players in the mission. Does casting prism automatically illuminate an area making it light ? Similarly Mirage's clones block light rays around her unless she's looking at them directly, thus are they creating a darker environment? What I'm getting at, is this ability doesn't react to dynamic effects like that. All you have is a visual cue based on how the buff looks depending on where you stand. Also levels of brightness / darkness make no difference, it's either light or dark. So if you're in a very lit environment, some less bright areas will still count as light. It is simply too arbitrary to use the ability as was intended. Where imo the intended use was for players to stay in the shadows if they were on the defensive, and out in the open if they are on the offensive. All this is not an issue except in those instances where you really need damage reduction and frantically try to find an area that is considered dark but die before doing so. Sure on certain tile-sets I've memorized certain areas as light vs dark, but imo if an ability relies on you memorizing tile lighting configurations, it's not a good ability.

Dude you nailed it 10/10 couldn't have said it better myself.

[RealPandemonium]

5 hours ago, TaylorsContraction said:

Your first paragraph is nonesense to be honest. I very much doubt the majority would agree to that. As for your last sentence, therein lies the problem. What is a light or dark area is not well defined, nor is it easy to define such areas due to the variations of graphical setting across users. Let's say grass is introduced on earth tile-sets. Will being inside the grass count as dark, but jumping over it count as light (assuming daytime)? Are cast shadows from other players counted as "darkened" area (it isn't)?

Let's say the ability works off the client, based on the client's settings and thus ignores all other players in the mission. Does casting prism automatically illuminate an area making it light ? Similarly Mirage's clones block light rays around her unless she's looking at them directly, thus are they creating a darker environment? What I'm getting at, is this ability doesn't react to dynamic effects like that. All you have is a visual cue based on how the buff looks depending on where you stand. Also levels of brightness / darkness make no difference, it's either light or dark. So if you're in a very lit environment, some less bright areas will still count as light. It is simply too arbitrary to use the ability as was intended. Where imo the intended use was for players to stay in the shadows if they were on the defensive, and out in the open if they are on the offensive. All this is not an issue except in those instances where you really need damage reduction and frantically try to find an area that is considered dark but die before doing so. Sure on certain tile-sets I've memorized certain areas as light vs dark, but imo if an ability relies on you memorizing tile lighting configurations, it's not a good ability.

No one is asking for radical code changes or dynamic lighting changes going into this power.  

Better definition (maybe add some faint tinting or border lines that only Mirage can see when the power is active, with an option to toggle it off in the menu if you don't like it?) is all that's needed.  

I am absolutely against just another dumb stat buff.  HoM is already problematic as it is; Mirage doesn't need more cheesy DR/damage without any drawbacks.  Eclipse is a more or less permanent [massive] buff that you get virtually for free; having to work around/think about how to maximize its contribution makes sense from a design/gameplay standpoint.  

Edited October 19, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[SenorClipClop]

7 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

maybe add some faint tinting or border lines that only Mirage can see when the power is active

She already has this. When in light, she glows a silvery blue. In darkness, she looks all ashy and insubstantial. It's pretty noticeable.

[RealPandemonium]

4 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

She already has this. When in light, she glows a silvery blue. In darkness, she looks all ashy and insubstantial. It's pretty noticeable.

I meant on the ground or otherwise somehow in the environment.  The visual feedback is quite clear; it's getting to the desired spots that's a matter of trial and error currently.