main_antagonist

Tank Mirage - Eclipse Fix / Augment!

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main_antagonist    1,179

I'm really keen for this to be a fix or an augment, pleases me that this thread is getting attention :D 

I'd like to say a big thank you to everyone who has been giving positive feedback it means a lot and it's nice to know I wasn't the only person to experience this frustration.

Looking forward to if this gets implemented I'll probably start maining mirage a bit more I've since shelved her because of the uncertainty of her 3rd ability.

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kpa732    43

I don't know much about this specific situation, but recastability on tanking abilities would be a plus no matter how you spin it :3

 

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Twilight053    2,351

Not a good fix in my opinion, while yes they should fix the lighting, it only takes some scouring to know which is the ideal glass cannon or tank areas. In addition, pressing an additional button to switch stance seems to be counter-intuitive to the fast-paced gameplay the game has to offer, especially when you can just walk into darker area while still doing damage. Even if its just a 0.5s cast, it still means death or alive if you're playing on end-game levels.

This is not the kind of augment I'd consider on using even if I had free slot.

Edited by Twilight053

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main_antagonist    1,179
On 07/01/2017 at 1:57 PM, Twilight053 said:

Not a good fix in my opinion, while yes they should fix the lighting, it only takes some scouring to know which is the ideal glass cannon or tank areas. In addition, pressing an additional button to switch stance seems to be counter-intuitive to the fast-paced gameplay the game has to offer, especially when you can just walk into darker area while still doing damage. Even if its just a 0.5s cast, it still means death or alive if you're playing on end-game levels.

This is not the kind of augment I'd consider on using even if I had free slot.

An additional button? I don't understand where you're getting that from ... It's a cast the same at you cast it now but the buff you gain remains from where you were standing (light or shadow) if you want to rebuff you press it again which I add is already in the game. The only difference is that it doesn't change depending on where you move after cast unless you recast.

Now that is cleared up I'll get onto the 'areas' debate ... some maps have more light or more shadow so you are almost forced to primarily play one buff or the other without much choice so if you find a tile that has a small amount of shadows and you want damage resistance? Great now you have to camp in that one spot if you move one foot out of line you'll get one shotted by higher scaled enemies.

You might not consider using it if the concept was implemented as an augment but that's not to say others won't, I suggested it become an augment as a compromise if it isn't incorporated as a subtle tweak/rework of the ability itself becoming an innate feature. Debunking the 0.5s cast you mentioned it takes much longer to move from a light source to a shadow area to buff yourself to survive fatal hits, cast the shadow buff you have the ENTIRE duration of the buff as a shadow buff and within the last 5 or 10 seconds you simply glance around for a shadow and recast and leave the shadow.

I fail to understand the concept of why it wasn't implemented this way to begin with, say for example you were almost dead and you're in a shadow taking reduced damage trying to thin out the mob attacking you a Grineer Scorpion, Infested Ancient, any unit with AOE knockdown/knockback such as Corpus and Infested MOA units will knock you into the light source and you will instantly die when it comes to higher leveled enemies.

I could keep going on about why it should be implemented but at this point it would be beneficial for all players, complaining about pressing the button to respec your buff is illogical when most of the mirage players simply run around spamming the Simulor ... So people who don't like the idea of pressing the ability again to change buff depending on where they are standing, giving them proper control over what buff you have are opposed over a simple 1 press cast to change but are happy to keep spamming fire on their weapon for the entire magazine before it reloads that makes no sense to me I'm sorry but I really can't make sense of that.

Edit: Side note there are frames who simply cast to activate an ability once and become god tier;

Valkyr - Hysteria ... 1 button to cheat death

Chroma - Vex Armor (ice element) ... Activate and find it near impossible to die.

Wukong - Defy ... <--- see ability name

The frame lists go on and on! Frost, Limbo, Nezha, Nyx, Rhino it's a one press and relax. However with Mirage to take reduced damage you have to actively seek out the proper lack of lighting, remain in that area and if you step out of line you die (before somebody tries to throw in her Prism Blind into the debate ... it's now Line of sight nerfed so if an enemy walks around a corner for example that wasn't there for the initial cast and they're say a level 90+ Grineer Napalm, Commander, Scorch, Corpus Sniper pretty much anything can oneshot mirage at that level of enemy scaling means my point is further proven that she needs a more reliable method of defence when using Eclipse to stay alive.

Edit 2: "Help revive me I'm bleeding out" I can't bro if I step into the light I'll get one shotted like you ... "Use your Prism blind it'll be okay!" (casts Prism ... new enemy walks around that wasn't in the light of sight at the time of casting the ability) Hey I got one shotted sorry man we're both going to bleed out now.

^ This is a typical scenario for me so even if I manage to keep myself alive at some point I'll go to help my allies who are in bleedout, then I'll be subjected to the same fate as them at so much as a coin toss to see if I'll live or die.

Edited by main_antagonist
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Twilight053    2,351
18 hours ago, main_antagonist said:

An additional button? I don't understand where you're getting that from ... It's a cast the same at you cast it now but the buff you gain remains from where you were standing (light or shadow) if you want to rebuff you press it again which I add is already in the game. The only difference is that it doesn't change depending on where you move after cast unless you recast.

Now that is cleared up I'll get onto the 'areas' debate ... some maps have more light or more shadow so they force you to primarily play one buff or the other without much choice so if you find a tile that has a small amount of shadows and you want damage resistance? Great now you have to camp in that one spot if you move one foot out of line you'll get one shotted by higher scaled enemies.

You might not consider using it if the concept was implemented as an augment but that's not to say others won't, I suggested it become an augment as a compromise if it isn't incorporated as a subtle tweak/rework of the ability itself becoming an innate feature. Debunking the 0.5s cast you mentioned it takes much longer to move from a light source to a shadow area to buff yourself to survive fatal hits, cast the shadow buff you have the ENTIRE duration of the buff as a shadow buff and within the last 5 or 10 seconds you simply glance around for a shadow and recast and leave the shadow.

I fail to understand the concept of why it wasn't implemented this way to begin with, say for example you were almost dead and you're in a shadow taking reduced damage trying to thin out the mob attacking you a Grineer Scorpion, Infested Ancient, any unit with AOE knockdown/knockback such as Corpus and Infested MOA units will knock you into the light source and you will instantly die when it comes to higher leveled enemies.

I could keep going on about why it should be implemented but at this point it would be beneficial for all players, complaining about pressing the button to respec your buff is illogical when most of the mirage players simply run around spamming the Simulor ... So people who don't like the idea of pressing the ability again to change buff depending on where they are standing, giving them proper control over what buff you have are opposed over a simple 1 press cast to change but are happy to keep spamming fire on their weapon for the entire magazine before it reloads that makes no sense to me I'm sorry but I really can't make sense of that.

Edit: Side note there are frames who simply cast to activate an ability once and become god tier;

Valkyr - Hysteria ... 1 button to cheat death

Chroma - Vex Armor (ice element) ... Activate and find it near impossible to die.

Wukong - Defy ... <--- see ability name

The frame lists go on and on! Frost, Limbo, Nezha, Nyx, Rhino it's a one press and relax. However with Mirage to take reduced damage you have to actively seek out the proper lack of lighting, remain in that area and if you step out of line you die (before somebody tries to throw in her Prism Blind into the debate ... it's now Line of sight nerfed so if an enemy walks around a corner for example that wasn't there for the initial cast and they're say a level 90+ Grineer Napalm, Commander, Scorch, Corpus Sniper pretty much anything can oneshot mirage at that level of enemy scaling means my point is further proven that she needs a more reliable method of defence when using Eclipse to stay alive.

Edit 2: "Help revive me I'm bleeding out" I can't bro if I step into the light I'll get one shotted like you ... "Use your Prism blind it'll be okay!" (casts Prism ... new enemy walks around that wasn't in the light of sight at the time of casting the ability) Hey I got one shotted sorry man we're both going to bleed out now.

^ This is a typical scenario for me so even if I manage to keep myself alive at some point I'll go to help my allies who are in bleedout, then I'll be subjected to the same fate as them at so much as a coin toss to see if I'll live or die.

For additional button, I meant pressing 3 to switch stance. Considering Mirages can switch by simply moving to brighter/darker area, it seems to be counter-intuitive considering how the game demands a fast-paced action.

For the "areas" debate, no single tileset contains a 99% bright/dark as a whole (except for Simulacrum, but that's a different animal), sure the places might not be strategic for few parts (Asteroid Defense) but for the most parts Mirages should have no problem seeking out a place to stay in the dark and or light places.

For the 0.5s argument, remember that Mirages are turrets during casting. It is more dangerous to spend a 0.5s staying still than 0.5s maneuvering (remember that Eclipse Mirages would stay relatively close to dark/bright place). Even if they could let bullet jump momentum carry them, that's no different than getting their way into a safe spot.

No comment on the knockdown argument, since it does happen to all the frames in the game.

Mirage players running around spamming Simulor won't survive in endgame without proper Eclipse, I would know because I've tried. Proper Mirages would mini-manage between attacking enemies, being conscious of their surrounding, and keeping up both their HoM and Eclipse.

Regarding reviving players in bright places, Hall of Mirrors.

Edited by Twilight053

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main_antagonist    1,179
14 minutes ago, Twilight053 said:

For additional button, I meant pressing 3 to switch stance. Considering Mirages can switch by simply moving to brighter/darker area, it seems to be counter-intuitive considering how the game demands a fast-paced action.

For the "areas" debate, no single tileset contains a 99% bright/dark as a whole (except for Simulacrum, but that's a different animal), sure the places might not be strategic for few parts (Asteroid Defense) but for the most parts Mirages should have no problem seeking out a place to stay in the dark and or light places.

For the 0.5s argument, remember that Mirages are turrets during casting. It is more dangerous to spend a 0.5s staying still than 0.5s maneuvering (remember that Eclipse Mirages would stay relatively close to dark/bright place). Even if they could let bullet jump momentum carry them, that's no different than getting their way into a safe spot.

No comment on the knockdown argument, since it does happen to all the frames in the game.

Mirage players running around spamming Simulor won't survive in endgame without proper Eclipse, I would know because I've tried. Proper Mirages would mini-manage between attacking enemies, being conscious of their surrounding, and keeping up both their HoM and Eclipse.

Regarding reviving players in bright places, Hall of Mirrors.

Show some screenshots then about how 'balanced' the lighting is because I just did a kuva flood and stood in shadows multiple times without it triggering the shadow buff.

"no problem seeking out a place to stay in the dark and or light places."    see above ^

"It is more dangerous to spend a 0.5s staying still than 0.5s maneuvering"    False, if you still have remaining time on your shadow buff as I've explained in my previous post you would still have the damage reduction in effect allowing you to replenish the buff within the last 5 or 10 seconds before the buff expires. Max duration .. heck even a moderate duration build would have more than enough time to find a shadow to replenish the buff dismissing the whole 0.5s debate again.

"Mirage players running around spamming Simulor won't survive in endgame without proper Eclipse"    Exactly this is to change how the buff works so people realise she has more potential than a glass cannon with deceiving lighting dependant buffs that aren't 100% reliable.

"Regarding reviving players in bright places, Hall of Mirrors."  ... melee enemies, explosives, AOE damage in general from scorch or napalm, sapping osprey etc.

I'm starting to feel like you just don't like the idea of change the people that like the concept in this topic outnumber those who don't but that's not your argument your point seems to be about this 0.5s business if you're misunderstanding the concept I don't know how else to explain it but I'm trying my best here.

---Detailed example below---

I'll try to reword it again, so you have the buff active and you've chosen shadow in this example ... you are free to walk around with that buff for entire duration of the ability until you choose to change it or it expires. I'm going to get some stats from the wiki now, -("Maximized Power Duration increases duration to 56.4 seconds.")  So that gives you an easy 50 seconds to run around doing whatever you please if you wanted to play it safe use those last 6.4 seconds in comparison to your concerns about 0.5s to go find shade again and rebuff for the shadow buff.

If 6.4 isn't enough time to find shadows you'd have familiarized yourself with the tile at this point to min max your timing to give yourself more of an overlap say 10seconds or 20seconds if you were an entire tile away still giving you more than enough time to find a shadow ... after running around the mission upon loading in and looking for a shadow + the 56.4 seconds with buff active you ran around on top of that time you'd already know where to go without fail. 

"It is more dangerous to spend a 0.5s staying still than 0.5s maneuvering" In my second video where the game modifier wasn't reduced ability duration which I noted in my OP you can see that I am able to stand still for the entire duration of the ability and the moment it wears off I die ... so that gives me 56.4 seconds of standing still but you are insisting that isn't possible when I already have it on video? The only threats are the moment I toe out of line into the light, the ability would expire without me overlapping my casts to remove the pause between the buffs, or a nullifier or scambus.

Now I will agree with you that on a mission with Scambus units it is definitely safer to move around in comparison to minimal mobility, simply because they can debuff you from range but that is the only exception I can think of in the game right now.

I hope this clarifies things :)

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Twilight053    2,351

I'm simply saying this augment isn't a requirement to play Mirage well, you want this added that's your business, but I'm not using it.

"Show some screenshots then about how 'balanced' the lighting is because I just did a kuva flood and stood in shadows multiple times without it triggering the shadow buff."

It doesn't take a minute to scour ahead and know which is the ideal glass cannon or tank areas. Plus your augment would make it alot worse to figure out where's the bright/dark spot, especially if the only way of knowing is to click 3 every few seconds when I can just rush through the tileset.

By the way, HoM has higher aggro which attracts melee enemies and bombard missiles.

Edited by Twilight053
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Honestly what is proposed in this thread is a Quality of Life change. Ivara and Vauban already have these kind of skills, hold versus quick press. Having control over which buff you use depending on the situation is just overall better.

I know mirage gets a lot of bad rep for the simulor, but she is still a very squish frame. In high lvl sorties I'm always reviving mirage players because a stray bullet instantly downs them. Much like Banshee it's a high damage frame with little in way of defenses (we're talking stat wise here). Stray bullets happen, osprey mines happen, scorchers and napalms with their weird through wall mechanics happen too.

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Azamagon    4,762

While I'm not exactly a fan of Mirage, nor do I think she needs a buff, but it still seems like a nice QoL change, and I'm always a fan of QoL changes. As RealPandemonium is pointing out though, it possibly could make her too easy to play, so if anything I'd say that this could be what her augment for Eclipse does (as current Total Eclipse is...not that great in practice, due to its insanely small area)

Further, a buff like this doesn't mean she can't get balancing nerfs / tweaks in other areas of her kit.


Also, I'd suggest this:

Sleight of Hand, augment baseline (no problems there, right)?
New augment for it: Casting SoH creates 1/2/3/4 (rankbased) stationary pillars of light and 1/2/3/4 stationary pillars of darkness (Which, yes, will ofc affect your Eclipse) around Mirage. Mirage and/or allies standing in a pillar of light grants 0,25/0,5/0,75/1 energy regen, and standing in a pillar of darkness grants 1/2/3/4 health regen (or vice versa). Recasting it removes the old pillars before the new ones are created.

This makes the augment both help out with her Eclipse function AND gives her some mild team-support to boot, with small "recharging stations" (which would also be a more practical supoprt function than what her current Total Eclipse does)

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I didn't read the second page of this thread yet, but I think a easy way to make the borders more define is to bring the view into a mode similar to Loki while he is invisible and make a black and white world, so everything is well define while not effecting other players.

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I don't main mirage but i would like to see a change like this for her. i would play her a lot more often if i wasn't stuck in the corner of a room (for the darkness buff) with a level 200 mob group sitting in the door, I'd like to be running around and in the thick of the fight. The main bonus to having it as a singular cast depending on what area you initiate it from is mirage doesn't have to hide in the corners just to stay alive a little longer or camp that single ray of sunlight making her stick out like a sore thumb

Also for this ability all I can say is I can't stand playing on the moon or the void as the darkness and light areas are definitely not defined by what you see. Nothing like hugging those moon lights for a damage reduction buff. As for the derelict I have mixed feelings about this one as i know where all Light and Dark areas I need are.

As for making this an augment i think it would work much better been a straight up change as we already have an augment for her third "Total eclipse". Maybe if in the future they bring out multiple augments for abilities i would be all over it.

On 10/19/2016 at 10:08 AM, HalfDarkShadow said:

That, and I mainly only use my Explosive Legerdemain build(s) since Slight of Hand is simply one of my favourite abilities in game (at least on a conceptual level lol), and the added CC from the Augment mod (all dem freeze procs) is very lovely lol. But I digress :P

This is also one of my favorite builds for her, I always bring this build if i'm playing with a Nekros or Hydroid.  ALL THE CONFETTI!! 

Nothing like a grineer party ship am I right?

Edited by TJCTHEANCIENT
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[DE]Megan    54,347

There's a great amount of feedback being discussed in this thread, one in particular that I would like to expand on!

With this weeks Octavia’s Anthem: Update 20.1.0, Mirage abilities now see the light more often than they used to. Previously, Mirage’s Eclipse would feel inconsistent when running through levels while going in and out of lit areas (as also noted in this thread). This change will allow Eclipse to deal heavier damage as it will see light more often, but also increases Prism's damage and range by 15-20% average, as it too is affected by light!

Let us know what you think of this upcoming change.
 

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main_antagonist    1,179
1 minute ago, [DE]Megan said:

There's a great amount of feedback being discussed in this thread, one in particular that I would like to expand on!

With this weeks Octavia’s Anthem: Update 20.1.0, Mirage abilities now see the light more often than they used to. Previously, Mirage’s Eclipse would feel inconsistent when running through levels while going in and out of lit areas (as also noted in this thread). This change will allow Eclipse to deal heavier damage as it will see light more often, but also increases Prism's damage and range by 15-20% average, as it too is affected by light!

Let us know what you think of this upcoming change.
 

IS IT MY BIRTHDAY!? 'Slaps myself on the cheek' .... 'Devs noticed my thread, must stay calm!' ... 'What if they notice the others! O_O'

aWg0Y.gif

So stoked that this is having some light shed upon it! :D Thank you!!! @[DE]Megan

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main_antagonist    1,179

With this topic getting attention hopefully Mirage will get more breathing room to use the shadow buff, for me right now it feels that the light buffs are much easier to gain example of how it feels below ... Phenomenal POWER IN THE LIGHT! ... Ity Bitty Living Space in the shadows unfortunately I prefer the shadow play style haha.

 

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1 hour ago, [DE]Megan said:

There's a great amount of feedback being discussed in this thread, one in particular that I would like to expand on!

With this weeks Octavia’s Anthem: Update 20.1.0, Mirage abilities now see the light more often than they used to. Previously, Mirage’s Eclipse would feel inconsistent when running through levels while going in and out of lit areas (as also noted in this thread). This change will allow Eclipse to deal heavier damage as it will see light more often, but also increases Prism's damage and range by 15-20% average, as it too is affected by light!

Let us know what you think of this upcoming change.
 

this response alone has given me hope. 

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4 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

 

There's a great amount of feedback being discussed in this thread, one in particular that I would like to expand on!

With this weeks Octavia’s Anthem: Update 20.1.0, Mirage abilities now see the light more often than they used to. Previously, Mirage’s Eclipse would feel inconsistent when running through levels while going in and out of lit areas (as also noted in this thread). This change will allow Eclipse to deal heavier damage as it will see light more often, but also increases Prism's damage and range by 15-20% average, as it too is affected by light!

Let us know what you think of this upcoming change.

 

Just let us swap between the two forms at will. The whole gimmick is just that: a gimmick. Missions in Warframe largely tend to involve one of two things: standing around a static object or moving through a level. In both of these situations, getting the buff you want is a total pain.

Oh, and Slight of Hand is a meme. Just get rid of it.

Edited by TheTundraTerror
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main_antagonist    1,179
16 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

There's a great amount of feedback being discussed in this thread, one in particular that I would like to expand on!

With this weeks Octavia’s Anthem: Update 20.1.0, Mirage abilities now see the light more often than they used to. Previously, Mirage’s Eclipse would feel inconsistent when running through levels while going in and out of lit areas (as also noted in this thread). This change will allow Eclipse to deal heavier damage as it will see light more often, but also increases Prism's damage and range by 15-20% average, as it too is affected by light!

Let us know what you think of this upcoming change.
 

Does this mean DE is considering Eclipse to maintain the lighting buff you gained upon cast, instead of it being dependant of where you stand/camp?

i.e   If you cast Eclipse in a shadow the buff gained is a shadow buff regardless of where you move to while the ability is active, if you want to swap to the light buff recast while standing in the light to toggle to the other buff.

I would REALLY like to use the shadow buff in the light! Compared to being locked down to a particular section of each tile

puss-in-boots.gif

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Venule    80

I... actually really like the original suggestion. A deceptively simple tweak, but it would make a massive difference in the long run for Mirage players. She's not my choice frame, but a tweak like this (and maybe a better 2) would actually make me feel compelled to play her more.

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On 4/6/2017 at 6:13 PM, main_antagonist said:

I would REALLY like to use the shadow buff in the light! Compared to being locked down to a particular section of each tile

As i was saying in my previous post, it does become pretty boring as mirage to having to be stuck in one spot/room just to make sure you don't die. Doing something like this would allow her to better compete with other frames who can easily deal with high level enemies on survivals or defenses.

 

On 4/6/2017 at 6:40 PM, Venule said:

but a tweak like this (and maybe a better 2) would actually make me feel compelled to play her more.

I don't feel her second ability needs to be changed maybe tweaked little. It's a utility power for a certain uses, it can draw enemies to lockers that does high damage when opened, and stops the consoles from been used. It's not outstandingly useful i agree but it does have it's uses in mission types like exterminates or rescues. But I stand by Explosive legerdemain, It's a fun build to use.

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taiiat    20,152

being able to have whichever buff at will defeats the point of the Ability - you get such a strong instant Damage Multiplier or Damage Resistance because of the stipulation you have to abide by.

if an Augment would allow you to freeze your light state or pick one at will, then presumably one would necessitate trading a moderate chunk of the maximum of the Bonus in order to do so.

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