Zerakh_Ezekhiel Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 (edited) There are too many players who view missions like alerts and fissures and the like as a necessary evil to get them whatever they're "grinding", and so they choose to play in a way that will definitely deprive other players of at least some enjoyment. Those players will then choose to play similarly creating a vicious cycle. The way I play this game is simply by not "grinding" for any kind of resource at all. Before every mission I set whatever goal I may have, a chance for a prime part, endo, some resource, or syndicate points or whatever. And so the majority of the missions I play are low to mid level. Especially when making sure to achieve the affinity challenge, these missions are in fact quite varied and engaging until some end-game frame pops up and starts spamming their ult (especially ember seems to have been outrageously popular this past summer, having at least 1 in the squad in around 9 out of 10 missions i did). Eventually I got really annoyed after the gazillionth time some ult centered ember deprived me of my chance to get 10 head shots or 30 kills or whatever during an exterminate or other short mission. Which can be quite hard to do as is without one such end-game frame floating around, especially in case the squad mates are somewhat experienced. So what is going on here? I believe there are a number of issues: People feel they need to grind for stuff in order to get ahead in the game. Low to mid level missions (alerts, syndicate missions, fissures, etc.) lack challenge / secondary incentives for rank 30 equipped players. In fact, I purposely equip fragile / less destructive builds to set myself a more challenging experience. And while playing I'm generally keeping myself occupied with a number of goals that aren't actually set by the game itself. People don't really care about other players and as such, are unaware what negative impact they have on others' playing experience. For reference see the experience of this particular player. They summed it up quite accurately. https://forums.warframe.com/topic/700501-self-nerfing-ideas-for-the-good-of-the-game/#comment-7815099 There also seems to be a PR problem in some cases, especially when it came to ember. Apparently there was some thread on reddit about how awesome ember is or something. Making it disproportionately popular compared to other often more useful frames. To the chagrin of a rather large number of players, myself included (oh god.. not another ember..). Before ember there was a time saryn was hugely popular, and ash as well. How to solve this: Expand the affinity challenges: Try to add more objectives that involve killing mobs in certain ways. Increase the reward of these challenges. Add objectives asking players to not use certain skills, or only use certain weapons for the entirety of the mission. Add more objectives that do not necessarily involve the mobs, such as reviving a number of players, using your operator, healing a certain amount of health for your squad mates. Increase co-op incentives: Reviving other players should be rewarded. Increase rewards the closer the kill counts are to each other. For example, if you have a mission with 1 end-game frame that is spamming their ult, and 3 other frames that aren't equipped with end-game gear, that 1 frame will have a disproportionate amount of kills. If the amount of kills are roughly the same the co-op bonus should somehow be greater than killing all those mobs on your own. Add special conditions that cause some kind of debuff whenever players don't stick together in the same manner ice levels sometimes occur. Increase affinity gain from regular weapons. Ults are in some cases almost genocidal weapons of mass destruction, completely removing the need for any other player in the area. Basically negating one of the core reasons to play the game at all, which is killing mobs in creative ways. Increase the amount of certain resources that are dropped or awarded. Nitain and oxium are, as far as I can tell, the most notoriously annoying resources to obtain. So whenever such an alert pops up end-game folks flock to them like flies on a corpse. Does anyone here recognize what I'm referring to? I really believe this is a big issue, and it prevents players from spreading out throughout the game. The result of the issue is more or less that less experienced players get stuck with end-game players who have no regard for them whatsoever, end-game players who are otherwise lurking in raids or void endurance missions until the next nitain or oxium alert is up. Ironically, many of them can be seen complaining about how boring low and mid level missions are, when it's actually them who are diminishing the engagement level of those missions by playing the way they do. Please also note that this is -not- a request to nerf any frame. This is a request to look at low and mid level game mechanics and to try and make it more engaging / challenging for players of all levels regardless of what frame they use. Anyway, please provide more feedback if you have any. If you have ideas to make the low and mid level missions more interesting (especially for end-game players), or if you can identify other issues stemming from the need to grind for resources, please add them in a comment! Thanks for your time. Edited September 23, 2016 by Zerakh_Ezekhiel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiiat Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 very low Level Missions actually have the most 'challenge', honestly. because the Player that's usually playing that, is Excalinewb that's been playing the game for a total of 1-3 hours or so. no access to huge amounts of cheese, so therefore must actually deal with Enemies. but averaged in general, there's no challenge anywhere in the game once a Player has a grasp of the various systems they need to master. abusive minded Players exacerbate problems, but the game certainly doesn't help things with the range of Vertical Progression there is. it's a skyscraper that reaches to the next planet - and that only serves to make things worse. (as always) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clazzeh Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Sorry but I cant agree with what you are saying, I purposely started playing as an excal with all mk1 equipment lately and I still found myself getting a lot of kills and such and out dpsing these "ult-spamming" embers. Your system of locking certain affinity boosts to revives, the kill count needing ot be similar, and other such things would leave experienced players having to play "stupid". As in purposefully play badly with new players or just bad players. And some affinity boosts, like the ones for revives might be unattainable cause maybe you might have a good party. True late game your gonna be a bit OP for mid to early game, but you shouldn't be punished for it. If you are playing with people worse than you, or supporting your team, you should be rewarded that I will say, but you shouldn't HAVE to limit yourself because someone else cant keep pace with you, There could be incentive to do so however that could be weighed based on how long you remain close to allies and things but you already get shared affinity, what else do you need? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yagamilight123 Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 (edited) The game it has not a very challenge places , the challenge is the grind ... Aside that , you want challenge and you go to low-mid tier O.o ? . You have almost 3 years in the game ... Edited September 23, 2016 by Yagamilight123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armedpoop Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 (edited) I agree and disagree with you. Im also happy you found ways to try and address your issue without going about it like majority of the people that do here. (rabid nerf herders) " People feel they need to grind for stuff in order to get ahead in the game " - They feel this way because thats how the game works. As @taiiat put it, the game has an extreme vertical progression, and in order to reach top of it, you need to put in a lot of time. " Low to mid level missions (alerts, syndicate missions, fissures, etc.) lack challenge / secondary incentives for rank 30 equipped players. " - As they should, theres a reason they are "low to mid level" " People don't really care about other players and as such, are unaware what negative impact they have on others' playing experience "- This isnt always true, also there are ways to avoid this type of behaviour, namely by joining a clan of like minded players, or playing solo. You could also try asking the player to slow down. "Add objectives asking players to not use certain skills, or only use certain weapons for the entirety of the mission." - Please leave this type of thing to tac alerts/sorties. Other than that, I mostly agree with you. Again, thanks for not just suggesting nerfs to dps frames. Edited September 23, 2016 by armedpoop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerakh_Ezekhiel Posted September 23, 2016 Author Share Posted September 23, 2016 5 minutes ago, Clazzeh said: Your system of locking certain affinity boosts to revives, the kill count needing ot be similar, and other such things would leave experienced players having to play "stupid". As in purposefully play badly with new players or just bad players. This is about setting a challenge that doesn't impair the gaming experience of others, not about playing "stupid". 4 minutes ago, Yagamilight123 said: The game it has not a very challenge orientation , the challenge is the grind ... Aside that , you want challenge and you go to low-mid tier O.o ? . You have almost 3 years in the game ... I mentioned an issue that a number of players have with the game, its consequences, and certain ways to deal with it. It would be helpful if you added some sort of solution instead of denying the existence of a problem that a number of players still have to deal with, regardless of whether or not it's a problem for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdunSaveMe Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 21 minutes ago, Zerakh_Ezekhiel said: Low to mid level missions (alerts, syndicate missions, fissures, etc.) lack challenge / secondary incentives for rank 30 equipped players. In fact, I purposely equip fragile / less destructive builds to set myself a more challenging experience. And while playing I'm generally keeping myself occupied with a number of goals that aren't actually set by the game itself. Level 50 zones in WoW don't provide a challenge to level 100 players. Why is this a seemingly valid point? We don't need to change what's there so much as we need more options for people in all tiers of progression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady-Alison Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 I definitely have problems with this as well. That be: players rushing through the entire mission or using a frame that's just stupid and takes away the fun. For low to mid levels these frames are things like Ember (or just players in general who rush missions) but even when doing sorties there's a particular frame that just takes away all fun and there's no reason for me to even be in the squad. In fact to play this frame you don't need any kind of skill, you build it in a specific way, start a mission and press 4. I'm talking about Ash, worst part of it is that apperantly while an enemy is targetted by his 4th ability, you do less damage to that enemy while unless he's riding their face they can attack you as normal. And tho I really hate frames like Ember that just runs from start to finish, letting you pretty much pick off their leftovers. I've never ever ragequitted any of those missions while I left sortie missions that were nearly finished just because I was sitting their doing nothing because some guy/girl who clearly lacks any skill and dignity, someone that can only play something that requires just one button otherwise their brain would meltdown, with a build clearly stolen from the online community, decided to be an A****** and take away all the fun out of the game for other players by playing Ash. I can tolerate every other frame no matter how stupid it's build. But Ash has almost pushed me so far that I've been considering to just stop playing (or just go solo ALL the time). I sometimes go back to do low level missions just to either test things out or to relax a bit and when I see a newer player I try to slow it down as much as I can so he/she can actually learn the game, enjoy the game cuz it can be fun but when you as a beginner start and there are these experienced players doing everything and rushing everything, it not only takes away the fun and their learning experience but also demotivate them from continueing the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerakh_Ezekhiel Posted September 23, 2016 Author Share Posted September 23, 2016 1 minute ago, AdunSaveMe said: Level 50 zones in WoW don't provide a challenge to level 100 players. Level 100 WoW characters generally don't go to level 50 zones do they? Well, compare that to WF, where end-game frames do go to low tier zones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armedpoop Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 1 minute ago, Zerakh_Ezekhiel said: This is about setting a challenge that doesn't impair the gaming experience of others, not about playing "stupid". I mentioned an issue that a number of players have with the game, its consequences, and certain ways to deal with it. It would be helpful if you added some sort of solution instead of denying the existence of a problem that a number of players still have to deal with, regardless of whether or not it's a problem for you. Lets be real here: if you needed to get revives for an affinity bonus, that would be worse then having to get pistol kills when you didnt even bring one, especially if you have a decent team, it would ultimately be wasted, imagine getting that while solo? Also the game's challenge disappears very quickly, I dont see how anyone could say "Warframe is a hard game" and actually mean it. (unless you literally just started an hour ago) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdunSaveMe Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Just now, Zerakh_Ezekhiel said: Level 100 WoW characters generally don't go to level 50 zones do they? Well, compare that to WF, where end-game frames do go to low tier zones. Sure they do. Even in expansions (minus the latest one), you would often go to lower level areas for various reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarrotSalad Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Who cares about challenge, just let people have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerakh_Ezekhiel Posted September 23, 2016 Author Share Posted September 23, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, armedpoop said: Lets be real here: if you needed to get revives for an affinity bonus, that would be worse then having to get pistol kills when you didnt even bring one, especially if you have a decent team, it would ultimately be wasted, imagine getting that while solo? Also the game's challenge disappears very quickly, I dont see how anyone could say "Warframe is a hard game" and actually mean it. (unless you literally just started an hour ago) I consider receiving the pistol challenge while not carrying one to be a bug. The challenges should definitely be conditional to what you are carrying or doing. The revive challenge for example could be exclusive to endurance missions and/or tied to a squad's average "skill" stat. As for the challenges, no WF doesn't have to be a "hard" game. But there should at least be some difficulty in getting the rewards. It doesn't have to be like that game where you're killed all the time (can't remember the name, but you know which one i mean i'm sure). Edited September 23, 2016 by Zerakh_Ezekhiel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdunSaveMe Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Just now, CarrotSalad said: Who cares about challenge, just let people have fun. Some people's idea of fun IS challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armedpoop Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, YubelsDisaster said: And tho I really hate frames like Ember that just runs from start to finish, letting you pretty much pick off their leftovers. I've never ever ragequitted any of those missions while I left sortie missions that were nearly finished just because I was sitting their doing nothing because some guy/girl who clearly lacks any skill and dignity, someone that can only play something that requires just one button otherwise their brain would meltdown, with a build clearly stolen from the online community, decided to be an A****** and take away all the fun out of the game for other players by playing Ash. I can tolerate every other frame no matter how stupid it's build. But Ash has almost pushed me so far that I've been considering to just stop playing (or just go solo ALL the time). I sometimes go back to do low level missions just to either test things out or to relax a bit and when I see a newer player I try to slow it down as much as I can so he/she can actually learn the game, enjoy the game cuz it can be fun but when you as a beginner start and there are these experienced players doing everything and rushing everything, it not only takes away the fun and their learning experience but also demotivate them from continueing the game. Well, thats a lotta rage right there, and so many things wrong with it. You cant exactly "steal" a build from the community, it was obviously posted somewhere so it could be shared and used by others. I mean, how hard is it to build in this game anyway? You usually dont even need build guides for an Ult spam build anyway. I mean, I could understand your frustration, but to call out an entire group of people for playing the game efficiently just boggles my mind. I agree with your last bit, that you probably shouldnt rush a noob thru missions on a dps frame, but it happens sometimes. The noob can either take it, or ask about what the player did and learn that way, or just look it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdunSaveMe Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 (edited) Just now, armedpoop said: Well, thats a lotta rage right there, and so many things wrong with it. You cant exactly "steal" a build from the community, it was obviously posted somewhere so it could be shared and used by others. I mean, how hard is it to build in this game anyway? You usually dont even need build guides for an Ult spam build anyway. I mean, I could understand your frustration, but to call out an entire group of people for playing the game efficiently just boggles my mind. I hate that. Apparently everyone who plays a certain thing is automatically stupid, because reasons. Like, what? Edited September 23, 2016 by AdunSaveMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheScytale Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 I feel the same way as you do, OP. But I also feel there's no remedy for this except changing how the powers in question function. Not necessarily a nerf, just a change to the mechanics which will force people to at least do something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armedpoop Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 1 minute ago, Zerakh_Ezekhiel said: I consider receiving the pistol challenge while not carrying one to be a bug. The challenges should definitely be conditional to what you are carrying or doing. The revive challenge for example could be exclusive to endurance missions and/or tied to a squad's average "skill" stat. I mean, thats if we lived in a perfect world (no pun intended) but you and I both know we dont, Thats why we get challenges that say "hack one console" in defenses and intercepts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armedpoop Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 1 minute ago, TheScytale said: I feel the same way as you do, OP. But I also feel there's no remedy for this except changing how the powers in question function. Not necessarily a nerf, just a change to the mechanics which will force people to at least do something. What this leads to is people finding the next best thing. It happened with Excalibur, and it happened with Saryn. I promise you it will happen when Ash gets "changed" as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerakh_Ezekhiel Posted September 23, 2016 Author Share Posted September 23, 2016 (edited) 3 minutes ago, armedpoop said: I mean, thats if we lived in a perfect world (no pun intended) but you and I both know we dont, Thats why we get challenges that say "hack one console" in defenses and intercepts. Wouldn't be the first time DE added a fix in a patch because I mentioned it somewhere on the forum though.. so... fingers crossed? Maybe I should just file a big report on it... to speed things up... 2 minutes ago, armedpoop said: What this leads to is people finding the next best thing. It happened with Excalibur, and it happened with Saryn. I promise you it will happen when Ash gets "changed" as well. That is exactly why I suggested not changing the frames themselves. But changing the way how people are rewarded for playing it. Directing their playing style in that way, rather than forcing it through adjusting what they use to play the game. Edited September 23, 2016 by Zerakh_Ezekhiel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armedpoop Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Just now, Zerakh_Ezekhiel said: Wouldn't be the first time DE added a fix in a patch because I mentioned it somewhere on the forum though.. so... fingers crossed? Maybe I should just file a big report on it... to speed things up... Do what you gotta do, the less times I see the hacking one in missions where things cant be hacked (like Archwing) the better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady-Alison Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 (edited) 27 minutes ago, armedpoop said: Well, thats a lotta rage right there, and so many things wrong with it. You cant exactly "steal" a build from the community, it was obviously posted somewhere so it could be shared and used by others. I mean, how hard is it to build in this game anyway? You usually dont even need build guides for an Ult spam build anyway. I mean, I could understand your frustration, but to call out an entire group of people for playing the game efficiently just boggles my mind. I agree with your last bit, that you probably shouldnt rush a noob thru missions on a dps frame, but it happens sometimes. The noob can either take it, or ask about what the player did and learn that way, or just look it up. Not everyone knows the best way to build and with stealing I meant, looking it up without really putting in effort yourself. Also that's a good thing about the community a lot of experienced players are actually willing to help, which surprised me a lot Edited September 24, 2016 by YubelsDisaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdunSaveMe Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, armedpoop said: What this leads to is people finding the next best thing. It happened with Excalibur, and it happened with Saryn. I promise you it will happen when Ash gets "changed" as well. That's not really the point though. The point of things like the Ash changes, as well as Saryn and Excalibur, aren't to nerf the 'best' thing so much as they are to stop you standing in one place pressing 4. They are, at their core, minimal interaction abilities, which is the main reason they're changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armedpoop Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said: That's not really the point though. The point of things like the Ash changes, as well as Saryn and Excalibur, aren't to nerf the 'best' thing so much as they are to stop you standing in one place pressing 4. They are, at their core, minimal interaction abilities, which is the main reason they're changed. And im fine with the "changes", but to act as if they arent nerfs is not cool to me. I dont mind stopping the whole "homer's drinking bird can play for you" style of gameplay, but not considering them hard nerfs is not ok with me. When you add a really bugged out line of sight check to abilities that dont need it, thats a nerf. When you make it where the amount of damage you used to be able to deal in one key press gets spread out across at least 2 other abilities (inflating its cost in the process) thats a nerf to me. Like I said, I dont mind the changes, I actually like the ones to Saryn because they show how useful and creative you can be with spores, just know that they ARE nerfs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheScytale Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 4 minutes ago, armedpoop said: What this leads to is people finding the next best thing. It happened with Excalibur, and it happened with Saryn. I promise you it will happen when Ash gets "changed" as well. It does, but will the next best thing be as good as the current one? A one-button-and-forget frame? 13 minutes ago, armedpoop said: I mean, how hard is it to build in this game anyway? You usually dont even need build guides for an Ult spam build anyway. I can assure that I know people who cannot build a thing. Not in the way that they can't build a weapon at a glance, because we may all screw up then. But like.. they can't build it at all without checking an online guide to know if it's status or crit. 13 minutes ago, Zerakh_Ezekhiel said: Wouldn't be the first time DE added a fix in a patch because I mentioned it somewhere on the forum though.. so... fingers crossed? Maybe I should just file a big report on it... to speed things up... It's actually intended. I don't remember in which devstream or official thingy it was stated, but they said they're not intending to "fix" it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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