Vaykor sydon vs prisma dual cleavers

[(XBOX)Death To AR]

So sense I'm a console peasent I can't mess with syn weapons. But I've seen the stats of the vaykor sydon.

do y'all know which one does more damage?

primsa is a 25% crit with 3.0 crit multipler. With a 25% status chance... 

Thw vaykor has a 15% crit chance ( not sure if it could even red crit ) and a 25% status and a 2.0 crit multipler.

the vaykor has a lot more base damage. So if you put a crit/status build on both of these, which do y'all think would end up being the strongest/best ? Pc players help this console peasent choose his main melee lol

[tutzdes]

11 minutes ago, (XB1)Death To AR said:

the vaykor has a lot more base damage. So if you put a crit/status build on both of these, which do y'all think would end up being the strongest/best ? Pc players help this console peasent choose his main melee lol

Prisma Dual Cleavers have MUCH higher DPS (with a proper Shadow Debt powered build) and is also a fast weapon, Vaykor Sydon has a much bigger reach. For non-Sortie missions you can one-shot anything with Maiming Strike with either. If you need to kill hordes - Sydon is substantially better, if you need to kill just some tougher dudes on the way - Cleavers are better. Also Sydon lacks the Syndicate proc, so you can't heal with it without the Life Strike mod.

[-CM-Zenshadow]

Although lesser in base damage, the Prisma Cleavers compensates with a higher critical chance and damage multiplier (making it arguably the best crit melee weapons in the game), a family specific mod giving it more 100% more base damage and a healing syndicate proc, and a higher attack speed. 

[kaliazane]

Terrible comparison.

I considered prisma cleavers to be highest dps melee period till galatine p came out. Sydon is alright tho, for a puncture weapon its pretty good.

 

Edited September 26, 2016 by ViS4GE

[Voltage]

 lesion > orthos prime > Tipedo > Vaykor Sydon > Sydon

 

Dont compare dual cleavers to a pole-arm/stave.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

Cleavers win out. better Crit by miles, body count/blood rush combo has you red critting in no time, and you can heal yourself with the Justice Proc. I would take cleavers any day, but I'll still be picking up the Vaykor Sydon for the MR, and to replace the rather rubbish regular Sydon.  

[BornWithTeeth]

I really enjoy using the Vaykor Sydon, it's a phenomenal weapon for crowd clear. Prisma Dual Cleavers have far higher crit potential and thus much better focused deeps, but I have more fun using the polearm.

 

The problem is with the passives, though. Prisma Dual Cleavers have the Justice proc, which is just unbelievably useful in terms of periodic CC, health restore, and brief self buffing. It's great, while the Sydon has potentially the most poorly designed ability in the game. I am really, truly not kidding.

 

 When you compare the weapons without their Syndicate effects, the Prisma Dual Cleavers have the edge in pure damage output, by a significant margin. If you need to kill a single big thing, then the cleavers are what you want. However, the Vaykor Sydon is, unlike its baseline Sydon counterpart, crit viable with a Shadow Debt melee suite, and its comparatively huge reach and sweeping attacks mean that it scales fast when fighting entire squads. 

 

When you compare just the Syndicate effects, well....then the answer is that the Prisma Dual Cleavers have a Syndicate effect, while the Vaykor Sydon functionally does not. The Radial Blind ability is terrible, not in the sense of "this ability is not as powerful as the Justice proc" but in the sense that in any situation where you might consider using it, you are better off not doing so. The Radial Blind of the Vaykor Sydon takes forever to charge, requires you to stand there like a perfect numbnuts taking overspill damage without manoeuvring, activating any Warframe power, or attacking, and lasts five seconds, which is probably less time than it took to charge in the first place. In any situation where a Radial Blind cc effect would be a nice thing to have, it is tactically superior to just attack rather than attempt to use it.

 

I still like the Vaykor Sydon more than the cleavers as a weapon. Just....that Syndicate effect is mechanically and tactically awful.

 

 

[(XBOX)Death To AR]

Bump

[Volinus7]

One reason to use sydon.

Hydroid.....it's his theme weapon. 

Otherwise don't use it. Definitely not an effective weapon. 

[Xzorn]

It's difficult to compare weapons with drastically different Weapon Reach.

As an example:  Fragor Prime has twice the DPS of Jat, however Jat is capable of hitting twice the targets. So conditional they're damage output is the same. When Jat hits more targets than Fragor it's DPS is better however when it hits the same amount of targets it's DPS is lower.

Between the two weapons I would say Prisma Cleaver are an overall better weapon. This is mostly due to having a better stance and it's ability to completely shred high armored enemies. Even though Vaykor Sydon can strike x3 the enemies with each swing, at higher levels it's lack of Bleed procs puts it as a serious disadvantage.

This is besides the fact Sydon has a 50% knockdown resists while Cleavers have a 100% stagger and momentum to completely prevent knockdowns.

Best TTK on lvl 140 Bomber for Cleavers is this build btw: https://goo.gl/1wlmt6

[jragonsoul]

15 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

It's difficult to compare weapons with drastically different Weapon Reach.

As an example:  Fragor Prime has twice the DPS of Jat, however Jat is capable of hitting twice the targets. So conditional they're damage output is the same. When Jat hits more targets than Fragor it's DPS is better however when it hits the same amount of targets it's DPS is lower.

Between the two weapons I would say Prisma Cleaver are an overall better weapon. This is mostly due to having a better stance and it's ability to completely shred high armored enemies. Even though Vaykor Sydon can strike x3 the enemies with each swing, at higher levels it's lack of Bleed procs puts it as a serious disadvantage.

This is besides the fact Sydon has a 50% knockdown resists while Cleavers have a 100% stagger and momentum to completely prevent knockdowns.

Best TTK on lvl 140 Bomber for Cleavers is this build btw: https://goo.gl/1wlmt6

Using Buzzkill Vs True Steel increased the damage output significantly in all use cases outside of where an elemental damage type would be preferable.

[Xzorn]

18 minutes ago, jragonsoul said:

Using Buzzkill Vs True Steel increased the damage output significantly in all use cases outside of where an elemental damage type would be preferable.

 

They're Slash Proc weight is already 80%. Adding Buzz Kill increases it to 82.7% The increase in Bleed procs you get by increasing Crit is far better against armored enemies.

[(PSN)joshw1400]

6 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

They're Slash Proc weight is already 80%. Adding Buzz Kill increases it to 82.7% The increase in Bleed procs you get by increasing Crit is far better against armored enemies.

Wouldn't it be better to use elements with weeping wounds to get higher crits?

[Xzorn]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)joshw1400 said:

Wouldn't it be better to use elements with weeping wounds to get higher crits?

 

It's a Bleed spec. The front end damage makes up maybe 15% of the total damage output. Your Bleed damage is based on the base damage of the weapon.

Adding elemental takes away from your chance to proc Bleeds. It's ideal for lvl 100+ armored enemies otherwise a normal elemental build will work better. I tested just about every combination on a lvl 140 Bomber and this was the fastest. About twice as fast as a 60/60x2 elemental build. It does have a slight build up though since you need combo for Weeping Wounds. 3x combo was where I tested all of them.

[(PSN)joshw1400]

Just now, Xzorn said:

 

It's a Bleed spec. The front end damage makes up maybe 15% of the total damage output. Your Bleed damage is based on the base damage of the weapon.

Adding elemental takes away from your chance to proc Bleeds. It's ideal for lvl 100+ armored enemies otherwise a normal elemental build will work better. I tested just about every combination on a lvl 140 Bomber and this was the fastest. About twice as fast as a 60/60x2 elemental build. It does have a slight build up though since you need combo for Weeping Wounds. 3x combo was where I tested all of them.

I'll have to try that today. 

[jragonsoul]

7 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 

They're Slash Proc weight is already 80%. Adding Buzz Kill increases it to 82.7% The increase in Bleed procs you get by increasing Crit is far better against armored enemies.

True steel does help with crits at the start but it crits so often that after building a small meter that it makes little difference on even the bombard but almost every other enemy (especially lighter armored ones) will die faster from the Buzzkill. My TTK with buzzkill vs your build VS lvl 135 Bombards differed by about 1 second either way and about 13 seconds average (I don't have forma in it so cant use my Primed pressure point or switch stances.)

 

Not saying your build is bad in any way shape or form. It' probably is the flat out the best at high armor targets but when you start bringing CP or using armor stripping moves (Seeking Shuriken for Ash, which brought TTK down to like 4 seconds) the procs themselves start to mean a lot less.

Edited September 27, 2016 by jragonsoul

[Xzorn]

10 minutes ago, jragonsoul said:

True steel does help with crits at the start but it crits so often that after building a small meter that it makes little difference on even the bombard but almost every other enemy (especially lighter armored ones) will die faster from the Buzzkill. My TTK with buzzkill vs your build VS lvl 135 Bombards differed by about 1 second either way and about 13 seconds average (I don't have forma in it so cant use my Primed pressure point or switch stances.)

 

It makes a larger difference the higher your combo counter goes, not less.

At 2x Combo   True Steel = 172%, Buzzkill = 107%, Difference of 65%

At 3x Combo:  True Steel = 238%,  Buzzkill =138%  Difference of 100%

Ar 5x Combo  True Steel = 370%, Buzzkill = 231%  Difference of 139%

By 3x Combo you're doing an entire level higher in crits over Buzzkill, x 10.4 Bleed multipliers Vs x 16.1.

Even a Grineer Lancer with base 100 Ferrite armor has 90.66% mitigation at lvl 140, the additional front-end damage you get from Buzzkill is reduced to 10% effect. The build isn't really designed to kill enemies under lvl 80, though it still does well enough against basically anything.

[jragonsoul]

3 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 

It makes a larger difference the higher your combo counter goes, not less.

At 2x Combo   True Steel = 172%, Buzzkill = 107%, Difference of 65%

At 3x Combo:  True Steel = 238%,  Buzzkill =138%  Difference of 100%

Ar 5x Combo  True Steel = 370%, Buzzkill = 231%  Difference of 139%

By 3x Combo you're doing an entire level higher in crits over Buzzkill, x 10.4 Bleed multipliers Vs x 16.1.

Even a Grineer Lancer with base 100 Ferrite armor has 90.66% mitigation at lvl 140, the additional front-end damage you get from Buzzkill is reduced to 10% effect. The build isn't really designed to kill enemies under lvl 80, though it still does well enough against basically anything.

Going by the numbers in WF builder no mater what multiplier you have or what level on bloodrush the Buzzkill build is much better with anything that doesn't have MASSIVE armor. I don't disagree there. Lancers at 140 do in fact have massive armor. Again I did not say your build wasn't good or only good vs 140 Bombards. It's just if you're fighting 140 enemies (or really any enemies over 80) you are going to bring CP's and that is going to affect your front end damage substantially. When that happens the Buzzkill build will be doing a lot more damage.