shadow of the dead:the most weak ulti

[Matt89Connor]

the SotD is the most weak ulti of all warframe:

-the number of the list  for undeads is too low, if  you loose 14 undeads and you can't kill any enemies (this will succed in high levels)you has the last 7 and they are the most weak.

-you can't summon eximus, in a battle with only eximus this power is unseful.

-you can't mantain the same units forever because the enemies scalling and after 10 levels of difference they become obsolete so you need to restart the list.

- the helath decay base is too high: and only duration mods can reduce it and efficency don't, why?

-the undeas is very weak, after level 50 they can't kill anything, not only because they are the same faction so for example heavy gunners has weapon vs shield no vs armor, in addition the enemies dmg is too low for fight the faction, because the enemies resistence become too high after level 50.

-for only healing the undeads you spend 100 of energy, for summon 2 spend 100 energy, for summmon 7, 100 of energy, why the same energy?

- the aguemnts not help nekros becuse you have to use power strenght but power strenght has no utility in undeads because the helath decay is still in % and the Dmg is low.

-only the grenner faction can survive well to the decay because they have armor, but infested and corpus are weak.

-there are units like boiler they don't take dmg they are just puppets or boxe bag.

conclusion: i don't know if 1 day you will listen to me and act an help of nekros, but for now the nekros change is an half work, and this is the first time I see an half work by the DE in term of rework, why?

[Glitch_Kitten]

No.

[Matt89Connor]

3 minutes ago, Glitch_Kitten said:

No.

no what?

[(XBOX)ToothlessApollo]

You wanna use Shield of Shadows, Equilibrium, Despoil, high health and high duration in your build.

[Matt89Connor]

14 minutes ago, (XB1)ToothlessApollo said:

You wanna use Shield of Shadows, Equilibrium, Despoil, high health and high duration in your build.

even if the decay was 1%, the undeas is still weak, and thanks of the AI they lost the major time to take cover and use military manuvers,but at least we don't have to spend 100 of energy every 15 seconds, and this power become better,not a great ulti but more good.

yes i want use a build wich is become more strong, i'm tired us usig duration mods

Edited September 29, 2016 by Matt89Connor
fix

[MartianGHunter]

Not true personally I solo an hour on Eris, hour on Sedna against Grineer and 40 min on Pluto against Corpus only leaving because Scarabus units are frustrating with Shield of Shadows and with my Shadows killing a lot of the enemies so i believe maybe on your side you have a weak build or are failing to master playing Nekros but maybe I am wrong but personally Nekros is God tier now and his new Shadows are part of that obvious there are some QoL changes required but his ultimate should not be changed at all.

[Aenris]

Is it supposed to be strong? like, it should make Nekros a glorious DPS or something? Shadows of the Dead should be the next Blade Storm? i don't get it.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Arandabido

[Chipputer]

So... having an ability that adds 7 instances of extra damage AND damage reduction, due to redirecting enemy fire, is suddenly bad? Even at its worst, Shadows is still a good, reasonable power. Add in the augment it gets and you can, quite easily, end up with 90% damage reduction on Nekros, himself, turning him into a tank on top of it all.

But I guess being one of the few frames that doesn't use invisibility or invulnerability and being able to go toe-to-toe with high leveled Grineer, in melee, with the correct build utilizing Shadows isn't good. Darn. What was I thinking?

[Marine027]

Because all that counts is DPS in the game, how about NO. CC and distracting enemys is where thegame truely shines in my eyes, gettign trouhg hard missions with the rigth set up. Killing everything in sight not always is the best way. People like you only see one aspect of a Fraem or weapon and such people ruin the game.

[Matt89Connor]

read carefully what I wrote at the beginning of the topic, the problems not unique to the weakness of the undead, but also other very important things,c'mon the boys! Here we speak of a power that for fear to became too strong , the De given  mouch handicap and  now seems weaker than before, look how many posts we put on the feedback, many have given up because they are not listened to, but writing things like: (this power is strong) or (does not need anything) the DE will not understand if it is worthwhile or not an additional rework, but the fact is that it is a job half-done compared to other rework. use your brain and analyzed each factor.

[Brynslustafir]

Sounds like you picked a very poor selection of mods. 

[Matt89Connor]

27 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

 

But I guess being one of the few frames that doesn't use invisibility or invulnerability and being able to go toe-to-toe with high leveled Grineer, in melee, with the correct build utilizing Shadows isn't good. Darn. What was I thinking?

you can fight grenners with melee only if you have x3 of health conversion, and a melee weapon taht give stun attack with high range like jat kit or heavy blade with tempo royale , the other weapons send you to hell vs high enemies :(

[Matt89Connor]

3 minutes ago, Plasmaface said:

Sounds like you picked a very poor selection of mods. 

i have used 100 of build and try and try in sortie and simulacrum, the mods isn't the problem, but the SofD itself, and his weak point reduce the slot we can use for give to nekros a better build for fight, ahve ever try nekros in a battle with handicap like radiation, energy reduction, eximus stronghold? well there the ulti is weak like a rabbit vs a pack of tigers

[MartianGHunter]

1 minute ago, Matt89Connor said:

i have used 100 of build and try and try in sortie and simulacrum, the mods isn't the problem, but the SofD itself, and his weak point reduce the slot we can use for give to nekros a better build for fight, ahve ever try nekros in a battle with handicap like radiation, energy reduction, eximus stronghold? well there the ulti is weak like a rabbit vs a pack of tigers

From what i am hearing your trying to use Nekros in every type of mission you can which is okay for some frames and not for others hence why we have 25+ frames so that we use different ones for different things and maybe using him where is better suited will yield more fruitful results and for me this has been the case. But that's just experience with him hence why this rework is close to perfect for me and my play style.

[tnccs215]

*weakest

[Crawd127]

My comments are in the quote in red.

3 hours ago, Matt89Connor said:

the SotD is the most weak ulti of all warframe:

There are weaker 4th abilities, while I like Zephyr, I feel like her ult isn't that great. Hydroid ult is more a pain than useful and Limbo's ult has some utility but has several flaws... I'm not saying which has the weakest, but I don't feel it's weak at all. It's different.

-the number of the list  for undeads is too low, if  you loose 14 undeads and you can't kill any enemies (this will succed in high levels)you has the last 7 and they are the most weak.

A bigger list would make the problem worst, because you would have a list of weaker enemies and you'll die from recalling them from the dead. A small list like that will mean that you'll get the latest kill sooner.

-you can't summon eximus, in a battle with only eximus this power is unseful.

That's actually a good thing, otherwise, it would be very overpowered, Maybe they could turn them into non-eximus type once killed but that's another idea. Also, not every warframe is useful all the time. Once you're at high rank missions, it's normal to have to change your warframe based on the needed style...

-you can't mantain the same units forever because the enemies scalling and after 10 levels of difference they become obsolete so you need to restart the list.

Well.. isn't that normal? It's kinda why I run a non-standard build with no bonus or penalty on duration and power strength, to be able to refresh my shadows faster and keep up with the enemies scaling. I like my build, but it means that my energy pool is playing yoyo quickly. Also, I tested my build in Sortie solo, so I know that I'm ok with it but it's not for everyone. That's why it's fun to play Warframe, build may be custom to your playstyle.

- the helath decay base is too high: and only duration mods can reduce it and efficency don't, why?

It's fine as it is. In fact, I think it's better that way because Nekros rebuild is heavy dependent on several mods. Sure it's not always fun to have a dependancy on several mods because it reduces the build variation. However, if it was based on too many stat, it wouldn't have any customization at all. Also, I find the health decay fine, even with no bonus on duration.

-the undeas is very weak, after level 50 they can't kill anything, not only because they are the same faction so for example heavy gunners has weapon vs shield no vs armor, in addition the enemies dmg is too low for fight the faction, because the enemies resistence become too high after level 50.

I never saw any necromancer like character where their summons are able to do as much dmg as a playable character. Warframe included. At some point, these type of characters shouldn't be seens as dps character, that's not their goal. They goal is to distract the enemy while the necromancer is doing the real damage and Warframe has this gamestyle very well implemented. All the agro generated by the Shadows are well done, combined with the Shield of Shadows, it's just a life saver. Overall, the Shadows are meatshields while you do the rest.

-for only healing the undeads you spend 100 of energy, for summon 2 spend 100 energy, for summmon 7, 100 of energy, why the same energy?

Actually, the cost is the same, but the casting time isn't. If you're only using the 100 energy to heal your Shadows, it will be very quick to cast. That's only true if all your 7 Shadows are alive. Other than that, it will be a long casting time. So there's a change in the casting. As for the energy cost, if you have an Equilibrium, which you totally should, you won't even mind to spend 100 energy, in fact, you'll be maxed out in energy almost after the end of casting your Shadows...

- the aguemnts not help nekros becuse you have to use power strenght but power strenght has no utility in undeads because the helath decay is still in % and the Dmg is low.

Wait... what? My main build has no bonus on power strenght, or power duration or power efficiency. I'm using Despoil and Shield of Shadows. They are more than useful, in fact, if you combine those with Equilibrium and Health Conversion, you'll feel like you're simply a bullet sponge. Without those, it may be agreeing with your post...

-only the grenner faction can survive well to the decay because they have armor, but infested and corpus are weak.

Again, I prefer to see them die, because it means that I don't take the damage. However, against corpus, being able to have 1 or 2 Bursa as a Shadow is pretty great and having Ancients in infected is simply awesome because you gain the dmg reduction from it. The only thing I wish it was better is that the Scambus was higher in the shadow list, because I barely raised any...

-there are units like boiler they don't take dmg they are just puppets or boxe bag.

That's even greater! They take damage that should have been against me!

conclusion: i don't know if 1 day you will listen to me and act an help of nekros, but for now the nekros change is an half work, and this is the first time I see an half work by the DE in term of rework, why?

Conclusion, it's more than half work, I'm thinking that you have trouble to adapt to that new Nekros or having trouble to understand how Shadows work. I'll end up on something that I like a lot, specially against Grineer! I can have free Kubrows/Kavats! Which are really helping in missions!

 

[Vohim]

OP how about yoou show us your build ?

 

i dont have even 24 hours playing as a nekros and havent had trouble with him  

 

the only time i messed up was when i  built purely for range and efficiency for Despoil  , because it made my minions lose 7% hp/s ontop of having their   scalings dropped to less than half  .

[(XBOX)ToothlessApollo]

nekros doesnt suck even close to what he used to. Making his third a toggle ability removed the completely unfun tedium.and the shield of shadows build made it so he doesnt die every 5 seconds. before i used to actually refuse to use him because he was purely awful.

[Matt89Connor]

5 hours ago, Crawd127 said:

My comments are in the quote in red.

the SotD is the most weak ulti of all warframe:

There are weaker 4th abilities, while I like Zephyr, I feel like her ult isn't that great. Hydroid ult is more a pain than useful and Limbo's ult has some utility but has several flaws... I'm not saying which has the weakest, but I don't feel it's weak at all. It's different.

-the number of the list  for undeads is too low, if  you loose 14 undeads and you can't kill any enemies (this will succed in high levels)you has the last 7 and they are the most weak.

A bigger list would make the problem worst, because you would have a list of weaker enemies and you'll die from recalling them from the dead. A small list like that will mean that you'll get the latest kill sooner.

-you can't summon eximus, in a battle with only eximus this power is unseful.

That's actually a good thing, otherwise, it would be very overpowered, Maybe they could turn them into non-eximus type once killed but that's another idea. Also, not every warframe is useful all the time. Once you're at high rank missions, it's normal to have to change your warframe based on the needed style...

-you can't mantain the same units forever because the enemies scalling and after 10 levels of difference they become obsolete so you need to restart the list.

Well.. isn't that normal? It's kinda why I run a non-standard build with no bonus or penalty on duration and power strength, to be able to refresh my shadows faster and keep up with the enemies scaling. I like my build, but it means that my energy pool is playing yoyo quickly. Also, I tested my build in Sortie solo, so I know that I'm ok with it but it's not for everyone. That's why it's fun to play Warframe, build may be custom to your playstyle.

- the helath decay base is too high: and only duration mods can reduce it and efficency don't, why?

It's fine as it is. In fact, I think it's better that way because Nekros rebuild is heavy dependent on several mods. Sure it's not always fun to have a dependancy on several mods because it reduces the build variation. However, if it was based on too many stat, it wouldn't have any customization at all. Also, I find the health decay fine, even with no bonus on duration.

-the undeas is very weak, after level 50 they can't kill anything, not only because they are the same faction so for example heavy gunners has weapon vs shield no vs armor, in addition the enemies dmg is too low for fight the faction, because the enemies resistence become too high after level 50.

I never saw any necromancer like character where their summons are able to do as much dmg as a playable character. Warframe included. At some point, these type of characters shouldn't be seens as dps character, that's not their goal. They goal is to distract the enemy while the necromancer is doing the real damage and Warframe has this gamestyle very well implemented. All the agro generated by the Shadows are well done, combined with the Shield of Shadows, it's just a life saver. Overall, the Shadows are meatshields while you do the rest.

-for only healing the undeads you spend 100 of energy, for summon 2 spend 100 energy, for summmon 7, 100 of energy, why the same energy?

Actually, the cost is the same, but the casting time isn't. If you're only using the 100 energy to heal your Shadows, it will be very quick to cast. That's only true if all your 7 Shadows are alive. Other than that, it will be a long casting time. So there's a change in the casting. As for the energy cost, if you have an Equilibrium, which you totally should, you won't even mind to spend 100 energy, in fact, you'll be maxed out in energy almost after the end of casting your Shadows...

- the aguemnts not help nekros becuse you have to use power strenght but power strenght has no utility in undeads because the helath decay is still in % and the Dmg is low.

Wait... what? My main build has no bonus on power strenght, or power duration or power efficiency. I'm using Despoil and Shield of Shadows. They are more than useful, in fact, if you combine those with Equilibrium and Health Conversion, you'll feel like you're simply a bullet sponge. Without those, it may be agreeing with your post...

-only the grenner faction can survive well to the decay because they have armor, but infested and corpus are weak.

Again, I prefer to see them die, because it means that I don't take the damage. However, against corpus, being able to have 1 or 2 Bursa as a Shadow is pretty great and having Ancients in infected is simply awesome because you gain the dmg reduction from it. The only thing I wish it was better is that the Scambus was higher in the shadow list, because I barely raised any...

-there are units like boiler they don't take dmg they are just puppets or boxe bag.

That's even greater! They take damage that should have been against me!

conclusion: i don't know if 1 day you will listen to me and act an help of nekros, but for now the nekros change is an half work, and this is the first time I see an half work by the DE in term of rework, why?

Conclusion, it's more than half work, I'm thinking that you have trouble to adapt to that new Nekros or having trouble to understand how Shadows work. I'll end up on something that I like a lot, specially against Grineer! I can have free Kubrows/Kavats! Which are really helping in missions!

Boy, I can understand your answers, thou art adapted, but the reality is quite different, Nekros in any type of mission and weaker than other caster or CC k had a rework, or are new generation, not because he in itself is weak, but because his Ulti is not complete!
The problems that I listed are serious problems in my opinion, and if you read all the posts in the feedback, you will understand that has no powers powerful enough to replace its Ulti in builds (such as Nyx Chaos and a lot more power Absorb useful), because ther's powers are only useful with agument and often get truble (see terrify hated by many players), I listing all those problems, and this are real problems it is useless to look for excuses, and i'm not wonder that it becomes a power OP as BS Ash, but there are only some tricks that will change the way you play, making it better and more useful. Add that , say that Nekos is strong in a mission in SOLO does not make sense! because a Caster should give their best on the team, so I thank you for the answers, but to think as you say is wrong, since the feedback serve to make it clear to DE issues and resolve ,if there were, probably many bugs and more would still unresolved XD

[Inarticulate]

8 minutes ago, Matt89Connor said:

Boy, I can understand your answers, thou art adapted, but the reality is quite different, Nekros in any type of mission and weaker than other caster or CC k had a rework, or are new generation, not because he in itself is weak, but because his Ulti is not complete!
The problems that I listed are serious problems in my opinion, and if you read all the posts in the feedback, you will understand that has no powers powerful enough to replace its Ulti in builds (such as Nyx Chaos and a lot more power Absorb useful), because ther's powers are only useful with agument and often get truble (see terrify hated by many players), I listing all those problems, and this are real problems it is useless to look for excuses, and i'm not wonder that it becomes a power OP as BS Ash, but there are only some tricks that will change the way you play, making it better and more useful. Add that , say that Nekos is strong in a mission in SOLO does not make sense! because a Caster should give their best on the team, so I thank you for the answers, but to think as you say is wrong, since the feedback serve to make it clear to DE issues and resolve ,if there were, probably many bugs and more would still unresolved XD

@Crawd127 went out of his way to respond to each of your points one by one. You could at least be courteous enough to respond back to each in turn rather than simply saying, "I listed a bunch of problems; you are wrong to disagree." Calling Crawd's responses "excuses" is not a way to have a constructive discussion.

Shadows of the Dead is already a powerful ability. It's meant to be a support ability that provides an additional source of damage, draws enemy aggro away from yourself and your squadmates, and gives yourself a massive amount of damage reduction with the augment.

Also, Terrify is a useful ability. "Go away, I'm trying to revive someone here" is a useful ability.

[Chipputer]

8 hours ago, Matt89Connor said:

you can fight grenners with melee only if you have x3 of health conversion, and a melee weapon taht give stun attack with high range like jat kit or heavy blade with tempo royale , the other weapons send you to hell vs high enemies :(

Have you... ever tried to even remotely build Nekros properly? Because you're talking like you haven't. I'm gonna bet you haven't. Tempo Royale isn't going to save you against high level Grineer just because you're using it, nor is Jat Kittag or a perma-stun status melee. It takes a lot more and Nekros can provide that.

It's fine if you don't understand how to use him, but you need to have the self awareness to admit that to yourself, rather than saying that Nekros is the problem.

[brainjelly2g0]

19 hours ago, Matt89Connor said:

the SotD is the most weak ulti of all warframe:

*cough* Zephyr *cough* Oberon *cough* Volt *cough* Atlas *cough* Nezha *cough* Chroma *cough*  Hydroid *cough* Wukong  *cough* Mirage *cough* MAG *cough cough*

Ugh, really weird coughing fit sorry.

Few warframes have builds as synergistic as Nekros. Try running these mods on him-

Health Conversion, Despoil, Equilibrium, Shield of Shadows, Blind Rage, Intensify.

Those mods and literally whatever you want turn Nekros into an unkillable beast if you keep your ult up. His ultimate is fine as it is, trust me.

[--DSP--]

1 hour ago, brainjelly2g0 said:

*cough* Zephyr *cough* Oberon *cough* Volt *cough* Atlas *cough* Nezha *cough* Chroma *cough*  Hydroid *cough* Wukong  *cough* Mirage *cough* MAG *cough cough*

Ugh, really weird coughing fit sorry.

Few warframes have builds as synergistic as Nekros. Try running these mods on him-

Health Conversion, Despoil, Equilibrium, Shield of Shadows, Blind Rage, Intensify.

Those mods and literally whatever you want turn Nekros into an unkillable beast if you keep your ult up. His ultimate is fine as it is, trust me.

How are Volt, Atlas, Nezha, Mirage's ults weak?

[Matt89Connor]

the problems do not concern the strenght of the ability, or my low ability to build appropriate, but something goes wrong  in this Warframe that others do not have!
- fight too many Eximus and  you no longer have the possibility to summon other units, (sortie and Endgame void).
- If it takes place of the 'Host Migration you also lose all the list.
-the decay is too high, basic, 3% means 60% every 20 seconds.
- AI does not realize that to protect themselves, or other military maneuvers are only losing valuable time that could exploit to attack an enemy together, the AI should be amended, and must be given the ability to give orders.
The Boilers are not do not do damage, but do not give support as they would the Hyeeka, but in the order decided by DE are among the first choice and it is wrong because a charger is much help to them.

and the list continue ......

so guys, I'm not here to ask you to have a Warframe that does it all, and he is not my favorite warfame, it is a matter of principle, about how things are not done right. If you don't understand, i stop now this conversation, because has no sense.

 

3 hours ago, brainjelly2g0 said:

 

Few warframes have builds as synergistic as Nekros. Try running these mods on him-

Health Conversion, Despoil, Equilibrium, Shield of Shadows, Blind Rage, Intensify.

Those mods and literally whatever you want turn Nekros into an unkillable beast if you keep your ult up. His ultimate is fine as it is, trust me.

i test this build, and i see big problem in high levels, especially when nullifier gone and you lose 60% of undeads in 3 seconds and need 150 of energy for recast the power, is too mouch, and  with 200% of strenght they can kill nothing in i tested so this mods like intesify, are not useful :(

Edited September 30, 2016 by Matt89Connor
fix

[peggisan]

1 hour ago, Matt89Connor said:

i test this build, and i see big problem in high levels, especially when nullifier gone and you lose 60% of undeads in 3 seconds and need 150 of energy for recast the power, is too mouch, and  with 200% of strenght they can kill nothing in i tested so this mods like intesify, are not useful :(

The build is extremely strong in high levels if you pop nullifiers bubbles. 150 energy is nothing when you have equilibrium and despoil/desecrate on. Dead enemies will spawn a health orb most of the time giving you armor from health conversion and energy from equilibrium. Playing nekros on 3rd sortie survivals, more often than not, you find yourself topped off in energy. The shadows arent supposed to kill things. They exist to soak damage that you otherwise would be taking. 

It sounds like your main problem is that you rely on Nekros abilities too much. None of them are designed to kill high level enemies. You need a strong gun or melee to constantly create corpses to desecrate and summon.