Anndddd it's already October.

[Viedra_Lavinova]

Just now, ensignvidiot said:

Ladder Diablo is a face-passed hack and slash click fest

Each of those games possess a level at which it can be as fast, if not faster than warframe.

 

Hell, Eve Online is Archwing without vacuum, if you want to.loot the wreckage of an entire space shootout, you'd best be prepared to fly for 30 minutes or more.

 

 

The Game existed before Vacuum and Greedy Mag, it will continue to be playable without it!

Sorry I just don't want to play RoombaFrame. I actually want to play the game.

[ensignvidiot]

2 minutes ago, letir said:

Never mind that community asked for Cavats and Kubrows too.

 

Never mind that original mod have 120% better range.

 

Never mind that most of Sentinels aren't so useful and im' sitting on 90% Carrier usage.

 

Let's act as white knights because DE "just" doing another stupid thing again.

If DE is JUST doing ANOTHER stupid thing just to make YOU amgry, then stop playing!

I'll take my Kavats over carrier any day, the damage boost is too awesome to Ignore. And thanks to the Companion Loot radar mod, I can make sure I'm grabbing everything in missions 

[MostlyUseless]

I appreciate that Vacuum will be innate on all sentinels, but reducing the effective range by half?

I hope DE will recognize that a reduction in range is unnecessary and unwelcome.

Also, while I'm only mildly upset by the repeated delays to U19-proper, I share this guy's overall concerns about how things have turned out this year.

Spoiler

6 hours ago, AntoineFlemming said:

Gonna be real honest here: I don't use Carrier and I don't use sentinels so the vacuum rework doesn't really affect me much. I didn't like Rathuum because it was basically Conclave, and I don't like Conclave because I don't think Warframe's movement mechanics (movement animations, how the player moves when holding a gun, parkour, etc) suit PvP at all (it's too crazy and hectic for my tastes), so I'm not at all interested in a Corpus Rathuum. The only thing I'm really looking forward to is War Within, mostly because of the new tileset. So, understandably, I'm disappointed (trying not to be just completely upset and PO'd) that War Within is yet again delayed by a whole month. It's annoying. It's annoying to see that it's taking you guys delay after delay after delay to get this out. I understand that it's a lot of work for you. I get that. But if cinematic quests require you to delay, delay, delay, then imo, they aren't worth it. Because it really does seem like doing these is just too much for DE to handle. If we were getting the tileset now, and the quest later, I wouldn't really have as much of a problem with this. But this is ridiculous.

You want to assess whether or not your "break updates apart" strategy worked or didn't work, but you're missing the problem here. The problem isn't your strategy; it's the fact that you have to break updates up in the first place. Instead of assessing this strategy, I think you guys need to assess whether these large, overly-ambitious cinematic quests are worth it. When players asked you guys to focus on lore over a year ago, players weren't asking for big, set-piece, cinematic quests. Players just wanted you guys to actually add lore to the game, and to add content to the game that furthers the lore. That doesn't have to mean making some huge cinematic quest. That could be as simple as adding the Nightwatch to Sedna, and adding a codex entry that gives the Nightwatch a rich, lengthy backstory write-up. When players wanted you to add more lore, that could be as simple as using your old assassination model, where the Lotus explains the backstory of an enemy. Large cinematic quests aren't necessary. They're flashy, and they make the game appear like it's complete and well-polished (your game is an alpha-state product that you're calling open beta), but that's about all it is. The new feature that you added with Second Dream is great, and the quest itself was nice, but it's not worth it if it takes this long to complete. It's not worth it. Not when there are other things that you guys could be doing. Not when you could have multiple simpler quests in place of TWW that have the same amount of substantive story.

So my point is simply this: While very thoughtful, your explanation of what to expect fails to understand the community's continued waiting for TWW. It doesn't help when you mention that players have waited longer for Vacuum's rework than for TWW. Players are waiting for TWW. And getting a Vacuum rework isn't going to make players ok with waiting even longer for TWW. You say you're here to get players excited for what's coming, without even acknowledging that player excitement is almost non-existent because you've delayed TWW for so long. That just sends the wrong message, imo. Again, I understand just how busy you guys are, but please understand the frustration of many individuals on the forums.

Again, with regards to your plans, assess whether or not these large cinematic quests are worth it. Because I'll also be honest here: I don't want a cinematic quest for Umbra if it's gonna be another TWW situation. It isn't worth it, especially considering that Umbra has been delayed far longer than TWW. So don't assess or rethink your "break apart Updates" strategy. Assess and rethink your cinematic quest approach. Because, imo, it's not working.

 

I don't want the team at DE to get discouraged but, as a player, I've been getting frustrated lately.  I'm sure that all the hard work on TWW will pay off, but I hope that DE will emphasize planning and pacing of content in the future... or not... whatever... it's just a game... what's on Netflix?

Edited October 5, 2016 by MostlyUseless
Removed spoiler tag

[TaylorsContraction]

Make America Warframe great again!

Honestly you need to be more specific. How are sentinels not unique by all having a universal vacuum? Shade and Helios will be my go to sentinels and they're pretty unique. Wurm has an interesting CC ability that I've been toying around with, then there's Dirga which I never even gave a chance because "Meh I'll just stick with carrier". When people no longer feel compelled to use carrier in the way I generally do, and start using a greater variety of sentinels, then everyone's playing experience will be that much richer due to the variety.

The game has grown, and so has the player base. The player base is so large now, that it is rather polarized. There are hardcore players that want more difficulty and those that don't care for it. There are even differing opinions on what difficulty is.

There are players who want power creep and there are players who want balance (me).

There are players who like the new archwing system (me) and players who greatly dislike it.

There are players who don't like the changes to vacuum and there are players who are okay with it (me), while others are happy with it and others still are hating on it before it even arrives.

There are players who don't like the endo system and players that do (me)

There are players that don't like how focus is gained (me) and there are players that do

There are players who hated the old void grind and those that liked it (me)

There are those that think the ease with which we can get primes now via relics devalues them (me) while others who rejoice that it's so easy they don't have to spend months farming a prime set.

My point is, it's now a tug of war between all the different players and our differing opinions. We all want the game to go in our direction and while it doesn't always happen in my view things are going for the better.

[ShikaRoddy]

2 hours ago, Brachion said:

People keep acting like The War Within was going to come out this week, or that it had a solid release date that kept getting pushed back. Neither of these are true. DE has never given us a specific date, just that they "expected" it to release around a certain time. It's totally fine if you're frustrated that it's taking so long to come out, but please keep in mind that saying it's "delayed" isn't really accurate, since there was never a scheduled release date to begin with. DE just underestimated the time it's taking.

As for the vacuum thing, people need to take a step back and look at what's actually being changed. Every single other Sentinel, aside from Carrier, is getting a significant buff, whereas Carrier is either getting a nerf in exchange for a new ability, or isn't getting changed at all (it's not quite clear yet). In addition, making the range 5 meters instead of 12 helps soften the blow for Kavat and Kubrow users, since they aren't as overshadowed by the sheer utility of loot vacuum anymore.

Umm, you know, when they were planning on releasing TWW in July and now it's being pushed back till November, we can still call it a "DELAY" even if we didn't have a fixed release date.

[Hidari]

7 hours ago, [DE]Steve said:

On PC, you can look forward to War Within more than a month away.  

You're kidding, right?

I don't know how it works over at DE, but I do understand that planning to release in early July and then holding off until November to release is not acceptable. I'm being honest when i say that for most of us, the hype has died, unless this update comes with a clone of Jesus Christ himself for every person that plays it, there is no way that this is going to be worth the almost year long wait for a new cinematic quest.

This would be forgivable if the game had some QC in it but there are still several bugs that have not been handled and haven't been for a long time, there are systems that have been left untouched since their inception, and there is a genuine lack of actual lore that isn't made in an attempt to remain vague about literally everything concerning the story. 

This right here is why the DE tagline of "Soon" is a thing, not because they don't like putting a release date out, it's because they're incapable of following one and no amount of being in on your own joke makes it any less terrible. I greatly appreciate this post giving an amount of time until we may hear back from you on it being released or if it is unsurprisingly delayed another month. It helps me understand just how long I will not be playing. 

If this is what we have to go through any time we want some kind of actual story driven content that helps push forward the almost nonexistent narrative of the game, I'd rather not even have it because this is not worth the wait. 

[letir]

Just now, ensignvidiot said:

If DE is JUST doing ANOTHER stupid thing just to make YOU amgry, then stop playing!

I'll take my Kavats over carrier any day, the damage boost is too awesome to Ignore. And thanks to the Companion Loot radar mod, I can make sure I'm grabbing everything in missions 

Great advice.

Don't bother with improvements, just stop playing (and paying), because "i don't have this problem, so it's fine" syndrome.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

Here it is:

Those of us who care about Warframe as a creative triumph of gaming, beautiful artistry, and entertainment...

we fear that we may lose this wonderful, evolving world if people leave and no longer support it's growth.

I'm glad the company made the business decision to tap into China's player base, and I hope the script revisions were made to improve a story that has now been fleshed out into something epic.

 

I'm with you, DE!  Swing for the fences!  

 

[(XBOX)freakytiki3]

i like the current warframe systems such as relics and endo are so much better then their predecessors, some of the new frames and reworks of old frames make them really fun to play, the changes to archwing have made it really fun to play as well its no longer an endless grind.

not to mention the new weapons and mods with different triggers and effects

Edited October 5, 2016 by (XB1)freakytiki3

[Vidorra]

7 hours ago, [DE]Steve said:

On PC, you can look forward to War Within more than a month away.  

Disappointed but not surprised.

Edited October 5, 2016 by Vidorra

[artemisfortune]

DE hasn't lost their way at all. Stop reading other peoples opinions or watching youtube videos and form your own.

[OverlordMcGeek]

I will forever be upset about the updates that don't fix what has been very clearly defined as a problem years ago. That is all.

[lZerul]

I don't mind it being a passive for companions instead of Warframes, and while I dislike the nerf to the Vacuum range, I could even live with that.

 

What I can't accept is that this STILL DOES NOTHING FOR KUBROWS AND KAVATS.

I want some companion variety without having to be limited because Vacuum's utility is too useful to pass up in most situations.

 

If anything Give the Sentinels the Carrier version and Kubrow/Kavats the 5m version, or vice versa. Just don't limit it to Sentinels only.

Another delay for TWW also hurts, a lot of us veterans are chomping at the bit for more story/content, and while I take breaks often enough that I am still clearing through some stuff I fell behind on, this delay really hurts.

Edited October 5, 2016 by lZerul

[TenGaugeBoson]

New operation sounds cool.

Guessing that this is a trial run with vacuum.

I personally wanted to see carrier shrunk down and turned into a cosmetic weapon attachment key chain thing we could attach to kubrow collars for universal vacuum...but that sounds complicated.

I am in no hurry for the war within I still have like 30 things to build a level....need so many mutigen things its killing me.

[Manly_McManface]

7 hours ago, -InV-igo95862 said:

Its still a nerf to Vacuum. The current one is 10-12 meters.

I hope that Carrier will bring the Vacuum range to those values.

Im going to assume here that either carriers vaccuum range will stay the same, as well as stay a mod card, OR possibly carrier will get a different special ability to make it more unique at the cost of having the same passive vacuum range of 5m. Personally I'm okay with either. nice to see the playing fields even out a bit for our other little floating friends.

[Morte_sumus]

1 minute ago, Manly_McManface said:

Im going to assume here that either carriers vaccuum range will stay the same, as well as stay a mod card, OR possibly carrier will get a different special ability to make it more unique at the cost of having the same passive vacuum range of 5m. Personally I'm okay with either. nice to see the playing fields even out a bit for our other little floating friends.

If carrier keeps the long range i am keeping for the sake of my sainity. 

[KesslerCOIL]

@[DE]Steve is there any particular reason that the Vacuum-like passive isnt just passively on Warframes? I feel it would help out Kubrows/Kavats with their use rate.

[Fugana]

Hm i wonder did Steve just Tonkored or Blade Stormed the entire comunity? What do you guys think?

[Navarc]

Survivals going to get pretty rough with everyone using up all life support capsules to heal 1% oxygen automatically.
Same with taking 10 energy orbs to regenerate 1 single energy when the Parasitic Eximi appear. Then there's 10 health orbs being consumed for 1 damage from the Toxic Eximi.

We could argue that this will "highlight" the issues with vacuum finally, like Spy 2.0 highlighted wall-hopping locking you in side-jumping so you can't go up the vents or jumping too far so you can't jump into vents & the right balcony! Oh wait, that's still an issue everyone has now.
I really want this vacuum toggled, preferably with a mod so I can choose whether to equip it or not. Forcing me to put up with an issue I previously could work around isn't the way to go about doing this.
I understand simplicity is very popular but.. If we wanted simplicity we wouldn't be playing a game with so many ways to modify the warframe & weaponry, would we?

I'm really glad you're doing something about carrier being the most used at last but I don't think this is the optimal solution. 

@[DE]Steve

Edited October 5, 2016 by Navarchus

[Rapid]

@DeSteveWhat is the reasoning behind deciding to use this implementation for Universal Vaccum? Only on Sentinels and the reduction of the range?

Was passive Vaccum on Warframe such that there would be no discrimination between companions consider. What were the reasons behind deciding against the popular suggested implementation. 

[MokutoBunshi]

" It will have a range of 5 meters "

"

• Carrier has two sets of collection range values, afront value and a peripheral value based on the directionCarrier is facing.
  • The front value levels as such: 5 / 6 / 7 / 8 / 9 / 10 in-game meters in front of Carrier (in a 60° cone).
  • The peripheral value levels as such: 7 / 8 / 9 / 10 / 11 /12 in-game meters around Carrier (in the remaining 300°).
• On max level Vacuum has a range of 12 in-game meters in all directions.

"

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Vacuum

 

So, half.

 

]\'[

[Brasten]

Two different things. 

First the "meh". The War Within and this whole summer has kind of been a long quagmire. Ever since June and Lunaro it was becoming clear that the design direction for War Within was clearly too ambitious to do in one large single go. On top of running a new convention, TennoCon.

At this point as a long time player the constant delays are a "whatever" thing. I've been around this rodeo before and would rather see it slow rolled instead of rushed out. The buggy release of Specters of the Rails killed any momentum that was building, and is very clearly reflected in the sudden plummet concurrent player numbers in publicly available the Steam data. It took almost a month to stabilize critical issues and the Star Chart it's still kinda wanky. By your own recounting The War Within, as a single update, got so massive and system complex that it became essentially unmanageable without bring overt content update to a halt. Which, as you've noted yourselves, runs counter to the methodology that Warframe has thrived on.

The one thing DE has done better than just about any other modern developer has been quick iteration to player-base usage/feedback. This was historically done by focusing on a single mechanical system at a time. Using minor (or major) "events" to showcase and in same cases pre-test a new system, with subsequent follow on polishing. This has worked very well in keeping Warframe development (maybe someday the Beta tag can come fully off and be removed from the EULA/Beta-Agreement file) moving forward, while growing the player base, and increasing the diversity of activities that players can come back to.

Whatever you need to do to get back to this style of "pick a system, make or improve it, build an event around it", should be done as soon as you've cleared this quagmire The War Within has become. This style would allow you to be far more adaptive when issues arise. Such as the Relic system inadvertently killing what many players perceived as the only viable "end game" activity of Endless Void missions (with appropriate rewards).

Second Dream as full blown cinematic was a "welcome surprise" with an emphasis on surprise. All but the most hyper aware and plugged in players realized it was coming, and even then didn't have a clue about the true form it was going to take. I suspect its surprising reception threw the development schedule off, trying for a grander repeat. Second Dream diverted from "pick a single system" formula by adding Sorties, a totally new tileset Orokin Moon, Focus, Operator customization, and major commitments from the animation/voice-acting teams to make the cinematic Second Dream. Sorties took months of continued adjustment for them to be in passable state. Focus is still in many ways a busted wheel, it spins but is hardly a smooth ride. The Orokin Moon fared fairly well, but is still getting the polish any new tileset needs.

Second Dream's saving graces came in three parts. The surprise of its cinematic quality (after some hotfixes). New grind of Focus while people scramble to figure it out, and exploring the Orokin Moon (and the trials hidden there). That grind bought you time to launch Shadow of Debt, and then sustain the ride with Sands of Inaros and Rathuum.

We then hit June and "The War Within" and things start grinding to a halt from the player point of view, however it was mostly fine until Specters of the Rails was rushed. The game became a buggy mess for many, and Relics shattered "end game endless" for others. Why Specters of the Rails was such a hot mess, you should have a better internal grasp on. From the outside PoV it seemed to be combination of trying to break down the overly complicated War Within update, while prepping for a TennoCon showing, and getting level of external pressures to have something to present.

Second Dream touched 5 different systems, the most non-connected systems impacted since perhaps Mods 2.0. Many of those weren't actually that complex. By counting what's been release so far, and possibly speculations of what's coming The War Within was clocking in at 9 to 10+ major "systems":

• Lunaro
• Star Chart x3 (which I'll count as 3 for just the inter-complexly of quests, squad finding, junctions, and the "Play Now" button)
• Relics
• Archwing Overhaul
• Titiana and Silver Grove
• Ayatan Sculptures
• Whatever unnamed mechanical system is/was in the works to 'support' TWW questline
• TWW Cinematic
• Tenno Orbiter visits
• Only you know what else

Close to or more than double what Second Dream had going at once, and with some major reworks to old systems (Star Chart, Relics, Archwing). If most of these had been single systems form the start, with accompanying events we'd still be hitting this time period now, likely a lot smoother.

The final lessons to take away from The War Within from an outsider point of view to you DE are:

• Pick 1 or 2 systems at a time, build an event around those, release and polish, move to the next 1 or 2 systems. Do not let "events" drive your development, let the development needs drive the nature of "events".
• For cinematic "events", don't hang extra systems off it, let the cinematic quest stand on its own alongside the 1 or 2 systems you've already picked out. Do not build cinematic quests around new or critical game play systems, let them stand on their own. In this way any delays in development of either systems or cinematic quests don't drag the other to halt.
• You are still in active development, in beta. You have many existing systems to polish and fix. You also have many gaps that need addressing (sometimes self-generate like Relics and "endless end game"). Do not get detracted by trying to deliverer what would otherwise be annual or bi-annual expansion packs on other games.

This was meh because anyone paying attention and with some knowledge of software development can see what happened, and that its going to be a while before it gets sorted back out. The not meh will come if this mess gets repeated.

====

Regarding lore updates, as some others have said, we don't need large cinematic lore drops. What we do need is there to be actual lore/story stuff getting added in, in a consistent lore-mastered way. The Cephalon Fragments and Simarus  Sanctuary Scanning are great examples of good lore drops. Sliver Grove Apothics would be another okay example. Second Dream is arguably a bad example of a lore drop, comparing the "develop time" to "amount of lore contained" ratio.

=====

Second thing, Vacuum... not a great response to both the empirical usage data and overt community feedback.

• Warframe Passive Pick-up range: 3 meters
• Sentinel Passive Pick-up range: 5 meters
• Trigger zones in pits where rare loot can get stuck: 5.01 meters
• Host with high ping or low-end hardware: -10 meters
• What community asked for: Vacuum (up to 12 meters) as a single universal mod for Companions (Sentinels, Kubrows, Kavats)

Please explain why the last bullet was an unacceptable option. It's actually really important detail in understanding your current design paradigm and your thoughts on how difficult obtaining loot drops should be. If it's to stop players smashing through walls and looting boxes on the other side of closed secrete doors, then please say so. As that would lead to discussion on ways to design those doors better AND help deal with issues like Rare Loot Containers spawning in otherwise inaccessible areas. If there is some other reason to drastically cut back the Vacuum range for your design point of view, please do explain.

The community identified various problems in the way the looting system works and overwhelming selected in-game option that fixed basically all of them. Loot falling into unreachable gaps, latency issues with host causing problems with pickups, the mind-numb and un-fun grind of having to (when combined with latency issues) stand onto of every drop (even having to run back and forth over it several times).

I've rarely seen usage data in any game regarding a single facet so strongly. The last one that comes to mind was Destiny's Loot Caves, that where "exploited" because of how bad Destiny's looting system was at the time. Which is not a coincidence. In a Looter-Shooter, the Looting needs to work at a level of reliability that the player base will tolerate Destiny's player base went after loot caves, Warframe's player base picked up Carrier. Warframe's looting system has problems, Vacuum fixed those. And fixed them in a way that your players found acceptable expect for one fact: it required 1 companion and an exclusive mod on that companion.

The only solution still remains making Vacuum (up to that 12 meter radius) a universal companion mod, until you take a deep dive into the various issues surrounding Warframe's looting system. A dive that will likely be as complex and deep as Damage 3.0.

[Dragonofdarkness13]

...okay
   I'm actually really disappointed right now. Why couldn't you have focused on War Within FIRST so you could make your projected release date rather than work on a corpus rathuum.
I have been beating a few things against you guys for a while... Since you are delaying War Within ... AGAIN ... maybe you could take some time and consider them

Companion Commands - We need to be able to TELL shade and huras kubrow when to stealth us .. or have them try to unlock a locker rather than standing there like a doofus waiting 
Replaying Quests - ... I'm not a programmer ... But I am Sure it doesn't take 2 million lines of code to replay a quest we completed and just not get the rewards we got the first time.
Staff and Polearm Stance Rework - Staves should have the stances we have now But the 2 that exist are almost identical ... but polearms need to WORK LIKE POLEARMS .. thrusts and swipes .. not the exact same stances as the staff but with different names.
More Claws and Sparring Weapons - says it all


 I am trying to not rage and to be positive ... but it's hard when I've been playing for 2 years and once I got to the point I started to lurk the forums and try to add to the community, help with my ideas ... I even wanna make Tennogen but the instructions and stuff provided aren't clear or completely functional. Rebecca recently Brought up one of my ideas because I think she agreed it's interesting and Scott seemed like he didn't even think about it and just got 'No'. So it's hard to keep uplifted and positive When I've been waiting calmly since July for the War Within and the only Idea the Devs touched was shot down Even though it's alreadly IN THE GAME.

 

[Urska]

8 hours ago, [DE]Steve said:

The Long Shadow Tactical Alert is hopefully coming in October.
An interim build before The War Within that will include the Corpus style Rathuum.

is all i care about lol, thanks....hope my clan icon gets added.... seeing its been a week n 1 patch...2 hotfixes :l 

[Alcoholism]

8 hours ago, [DE]Steve said:

How much Bourbon has been consumed?

If you guys weren't half way across the globe I'd send you some for sure.
Keep up the hard work!