The Vacuum Within: Universal Vacuum Feedback

[ashrah]

its actually buff for all sentinels...now ppl have choice witch sentinel they wish to use and haveing choice is alwayes good thing

[Extroah]

I use Kavats so for me it's a buff too. It's just the typical Community-thing again. Anounce you are going to split it into 3-Mods > Forums gets salty > Anounce you will make it a passive for all Sentinels > Forum gets salty > Anounce that Carrier will keep his 10m and get the 5m Passive in addition to it > Forums gets salty because the others have less range > Buff the range of the other Sentinels > Forum gets salty because Carrier isn't special anymore.

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

They better let Carrier keep its vacuum range or I'm gonna flip lol

[RoninJed]

5 minutes ago, siralextraffo said:

Considering I always use Helios, that still looks like a HUUUUGE buff to me.

EDIT: anyway, nice post mate.

Well the percentage of people who always use Helios is significantly smaller then the percentage that always use carrier i imagine so yeah screw the majority right hehe. I will wait to see what this vacuum nerf is like in game before giving my opinion on it.

[LoKor]

Honestly the solution I want is to have all pets have 12m vac and make carrier to something else.  This will never happen though.

[KaizergidorahXi]

Does Carrier get a new passive now?

[LSG501]

1 minute ago, Extroah said:

I use Kavats so for me it's a buff too.

Unless the info has been changed, kavats weren't mentioned as receiving the vacuum 'upgrade' just the sentinels were.

Personally I see a reduction in range asa nerf of the fundamental functionality of vacuum mod.... although the change to the all sentinels is an improvement the better option would have been give it to the warframe.

[Extroah]

Just now, LSG501 said:

Unless the info has been changed, kavats weren't mentioned as receiving the vacuum 'upgrade' just the sentinels were.

Personally I see a reduction in range asa nerf of the fundamental functionality of vacuum mod.... although the change to the all sentinels is an improvement the better option would have been give it to the warframe.

I know that Kavats won't get it, but i don't need Vacuum, so it's a buff to me in terms that every other Sentinel will now be more viable than before. :)

[._Vendetta_.]

I actually have no idea what its the best thing for them to do anymore.

Making universal vacuum seems to make all sentinels underwhelming comparing to kavats and kubrows...

Making them sentinel only seems like a ok thing to do, I think it would be better if kavats and kubrows get buffed to compensate for they being "vacuumless".

[Tsukinoki]

Just now, ._Vendetta_. said:

Making them sentinel only seems like a ok thing to do, I think it would be better if kavats and kubrows get buffed to compensate for they being "vacuumless"

Thing is though that Kavats/Kubrows are already much better than Sentinels in most ways.
They have better precepts.  They deal more damage.  They have a ton more survivability.  All around Kavats/Kubrows are superior to sentinels in every way.

They don't need a buff.  The only thing a buff to them would do is replace Carrier with the majority of people using Smeeta and nothing else.  As it stands giving the vacuum to sentinels only keeps them at least somewhat relevant.

@OP
The nerf is overblown.
Here is what the five meters in game looks like: http://imgur.com/Fmp7pJM
Five meters is plenty of vacuum range for the vast majority of actually playing the game and moving around.  We don't need a 12 meter vacuum for everything.

[Dizzle22]

Reducing the range is just as horrible an idea of splitting into three mods. This should be a simple thing, I really wish they'd just give us what we want on this one without any BS attached. Numbers don't lie, 89% of ingame* players want vacuum.

* This ingame qualifier is extra important, because it is more representative of the player base than the forums could ever be, and even the forums mostly want vacuum to not be nerfed, save for a handful of contrarians. 

I don't get it.

[Birdframe_Prime]

18 minutes ago, trunks013 said:

Did they said he will lose it in the last post ?

They didn't say Carrier would lose innate Vacuum in the post, no, but they did mention that it would likely be given a different base ability themed on being a 'carrier', like a passive Ammo Capacity function for example.

[Tveoh]

still better then nothing.  lets people have more choice in what sentinal they want to use.  

and do know what a meter is right?    5 meters is about 16.4 feet, in all directions.  thats about a small room.  that we often fight in anyway.....

12 meters is about 39 feet, size of your small corner stop diners..   Um..  too big thanks..  the 5 meter (16 foot radius) is fine.

[Guest]

Perspective time.

Assuming if vacuum is a spherical area.

Regular vacuum area:

Volume =(4/3)pi(12^3) = roughly 7000m^3

Post-change vacuum area:

Volume =(4/3)pi(5^3) = roughly 500m^3

Ratio time!

V(r) : V(p) = 14:1

I'll just leave this here.

Edit: Adding disclaimer: Yes, I do know that someone already did the calculations. Listing out steps here for clarification.

Edited October 5, 2016 by Guest

[Sir_Alex_Traffo]

31 minutes ago, RoninJed said:

Well the percentage of people who always use Helios is significantly smaller then the percentage that always use carrier i imagine so yeah screw the majority right hehe. I will wait to see what this vacuum nerf is like in game before giving my opinion on it.

True, but the percentage of people who only use Carrier because of the Vacuum but would rather use another Sentinel is not that small either, so I'm pretty sure we can consider this a buff to almost all Sentinels, which is great.

5mt is absolutely fine, unless you want to completely stand still in a 3rd person shooter featuring space ninjas with magic; but in that case, despite taking advantage of a power in an intended way, you're probably not playing the game as it's intended to be.

The majority here is meaningless, as the totality of us will have vacuum!

 

Edited October 5, 2016 by siralextraffo

[LSG501]

4 minutes ago, siralextraffo said:

True, but the percentage of people who only use Carrier because of the Vacuum but would rather use another Sentinel is not that small either, so I'm pretty sure we can consider this a buff to almost all Sentinels, which is great.

Depending on the actual mod vaccum gets (ie ammo mutation or extra ammo store as they talked about in devstream) it's entirely possible that the stats won't change because the ability to have more ammo available is still a better option for a lot of players... I was forever running out on my soma prime (seriously tiny amount of ammo considering rate of fire etc) on higher levels and I've ended up using a slot for an ammo mutation (I could use pizzas but not exactly practical when moving around) just to ensure I can get enough ammo due to the tiny ammo drop values. 

I've got or had all of them except wyrm prime and I'll be honest I just grab carrier (prime) because it's the most practical and heavy duty frame, I'd use shade but it's invisibility is so useless that most of the time I've killed the enemy before it activates.  Diriga is the only one that occasionally comes out due to it's abilities being quite good in defence levels but even that hits a wall due to limited damage being given. 

[Sir_Alex_Traffo]

Just now, LSG501 said:

Depending on the actual mod vaccum gets (ie ammo mutation or extra ammo store as they talked about in devstream) it's entirely possible that the stats won't change because the ability to have more ammo available is still a better option for a lot of players... I was forever running out on my soma prime (seriously tiny amount of ammo considering rate of fire etc) on higher levels and I've ended up using a slot for an ammo mutation (I could use pizzas but not exactly practical when moving around) just to ensure I can get enough ammo due to the tiny ammo drop values. 

I've got or had all of them except wyrm prime and I'll be honest I just grab carrier (prime) because it's the most practical and heavy duty frame, I'd use shade but it's invisibility is so useless that most of the time I've killed the enemy before it activates.  Diriga is the only one that occasionally comes out due to it's abilities being quite good in defence levels but even that hits a wall due to limited damage being given. 

That's the point, the stats could entirely change or not, but they won't depend anymore on a single mandatory(for the majority, apparently) power available on a single sentinel; ammo mutation sounds great, but still it's ages away from Vacuum need, so I'm pretty sure the stats will change in the long term.

[Xzorn]

This change does nothing but nerf Vacuum.

 

The new Ammo Mutation still makes Carrier the ideal Sentinel.

The best source of Damage in this game is the player's weapons so re-enforcing that damage type is always going to be the most productive effect.

Kavats and Kubros are not good because their damage and surviveability does not scale.  Eventually no matter what they die instantly and do meaningless damage.

The only productive output from Kavats giving +% Crit is offset by the fact that by the time that extra crit is useful the cat dies in one hit and you spend half the mission reviving the cat instead of shooting. Making it's buff an actual debuff to your damage output.

 

[Xzorn]

46 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Thing is though that Kavats/Kubrows are already much better than Sentinels in most ways.
They have better precepts.  They deal more damage.  They have a ton more survivability.  All around Kavats/Kubrows are superior to sentinels in every way.

They don't need a buff.  The only thing a buff to them would do is replace Carrier with the majority of people using Smeeta and nothing else.  As it stands giving the vacuum to sentinels only keeps them at least somewhat relevant.

@OP
The nerf is overblown.
Here is what the five meters in game looks like: http://imgur.com/Fmp7pJM
Five meters is plenty of vacuum range for the vast majority of actually playing the game and moving around.  We don't need a 12 meter vacuum for everything.

 

It's 18% of the original area Coverage. Math says it's not overblown as a Nerf. When is the last time you saw something reduced to 18% of it's original effect?

As far as being used by other Sentinels I heard similar arguments about Mag's rework. Hopefully by now those people have figured out it wasn't a buff.

Kavats/Kubrows look better on paper and on starmap content but take one of them in the ring with some lvl 120+ enemies and they're nothing but a babysitting job you're not getting paid enough for.. Sentinels can survive exponentially better as enemies increase in levels because they function off you're surviveability and not garbage AI.

All companion damage is useless. When a Kavat can do a 8m AoE for 400-500k then I might consider they actually do damage

....  I go to lvl 300 at least once a week cuz that's what I enjoy in this game, rewards or not. I like being in a gun fight with dangerous enemies, not spinning in circles with my ignis watching everything fall over with no effort, because that's what this game is without post Sorties enemies, No effort game play.

Who wants to play a game you can't actually loose?

[DoomFruit]

4 hours ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

That's the trade off for having it on every sentinel, especially as a passive. Everything in life has a trade off. Did you guys really think DE would just make Carrier's Vacuum sentinel-wide without any drawback?

Then that's a trade-off that I do not want to make. If the cost of putting vacuum on every sentinel is to cripple its range, then to me, the cost is higher than the gain.

Edited October 5, 2016 by DoomFruit

[CrudShuzKong]

1 hour ago, Tsukinoki said:

Thing is though that Kavats/Kubrows are already much better than Sentinels in most ways.
They have better precepts.  They deal more damage.  They have a ton more survivability.  All around Kavats/Kubrows are superior to sentinels in every way.

They don't need a buff.  The only thing a buff to them would do is replace Carrier with the majority of people using Smeeta and nothing else.  As it stands giving the vacuum to sentinels only keeps them at least somewhat relevant.

The biggest problem with your argument i see is that while kavats and kubrows have much more damage and a bit more dps tahn sentinels, their effective dps is cowdung because their ai is so fricken bad... Like how many times have you seen a kavat actually take initiative? All i ever see from them is their buffs and once in a while a single attack on a target, taking armor or stunning, but they dont really take out targets one by one as you would expect from any decently trained attack animal...

[DEADSHOT456]

16 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

Then that's a trade-off that I do not want to make. If the cost of putting vacuum on every sentinel is to cripple its range, then to me, the cost is higher than the gain.

Neither do I. Hell, I did not even mind using only Carrier. But the feature was requested by a very big majority, and therefore, we are stuck with the change. The ones that requested the feature were naive if they thought that there won't be a trade-off of making an ability not cost mod point and slot and be universal to sentinels. It is too late now.

[Skaleek]

Abandon hope all ye who enter here.

[Gritzan]

5 hours ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

That's the trade off for having it on every sentinel, especially as a passive. Everything in life has a trade off. Did you guys really think DE would just make Carrier's Vacuum sentinel-wide without any drawback?

I mean come on, Carrier can only suck and shoot now, but after the change, Carrier would give you ammo, suck and shoot. Helios will scan, suck and shoot. Shade will stealth, suck and shoot. It is common sense that there would be a trade off in this scenario.

No, there's no "common sense" here.

 

We're not negotiating with terrorists here, there's a very clear cut best solution that makes the crushing majority of the player base happier and makes the game flow while increasing the options a player has when making his loadout, with zero negative consequences.

 

Gathering loot in a 12m radius was not overpowered from carrier's launch until yesterday. Suddenly we need some sort of tradeoff to get it on all sentinels(not companions) for some reason.

This level of convenience is not something that can be argued to be overpowered or not, in the same way hotkeys for your gear items are not overpowered, or the convenience of melee weapons going through terrain, or any of the other quality of life conveniences that exist in a game to make gameplay more fun and fluid.

 

Before this change, people that wanted a good vacuum could pick Carrier and get it. Insane people could pick any of the other companions. Now, people that want vacuum will get a swift kick in the balls, and insane people will be limited to only using cats and the worthless dogs. The only people that win are contrarians that just love shilling for DE no matter how much DE screws up. This seems to be DE's target audience, after all.

 

DE has, again, after several weeks of research and development, analyzing companion usage and player opinion carefully, managed to craft the single worst possible solution to a problem that could exist. I keep thinking they can't disappoint me anymore, but they're pretty good at it.

[DEADSHOT456]

1 minute ago, Gritzan said:

We're not negotiating with terrorists here,

So you think trade-offs occur only in this scenario?

How about "needing better cooling systems while using the most powerful processor or GPU in the market"? Does that sound like negotiating with terrorists?

Or, a better example - When OnePlus 3 cellphone was launched, the RAM usage was capped. People wanted the company to remove the cap and when the company removed the cap, the result was lesser battery backup.

5 minutes ago, Gritzan said:

Suddenly we need some sort of tradeoff to get it on all sentinels(not companions) for some reason.

The reason clearly is that the ability does not need a mod slot and can now be used on any sentinel you like or see fit for the current mission. Blame the ones who asked for Universal Vacuum. I was happy with my Carrier.