The Vacuum Within: Universal Vacuum Feedback

[Gritzan]

4 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

So you think trade-offs occur only in this scenario?

How about "needing better cooling systems while using the most powerful processor or GPU in the market"? Does that sound like negotiating with terrorists?

Or, a better example - When OnePlus 3 cellphone was launched, the RAM usage was capped. People wanted the company to remove the cap and when the company removed the cap, the result was lesser battery backup.

what the hell are you talking about

4 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

The reason clearly is that the ability does not need a mod slot and can now be used on any sentinel you like or see fit for the current mission. Blame the ones who asked for Universal Vacuum. I was happy with my Carrier.

Oh sure, I'll blame the players, instead of the people making those changes, the people that are asking for our money and the people that have all the power in the world to make the changes that will make everyone happy and decide, every single time, not to.

DE is not a genie or a monkey's paw, we're not suffering from the hubris of our wishes. We're just getting screwed over by incompetent developers.

Also, removing it from needing a mod slot is not a reason to nerf it at all. Splitting it into three mods would choke a sentinel's loadout, but nobody in the universe would complain about having to use a slot for vacuum. When building a carrier, you already know one slot is taken. This is true for virtually all items in this game, with different mods.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2016 by Gritzan
I wanted to

[DEADSHOT456]

3 minutes ago, Gritzan said:

what the hell are you talking about

About terrorists :)

4 minutes ago, Gritzan said:

Also, removing it from needing a mod slot is not a reason to nerf it at all.

It might not be a reason enough alone, but when you add to this the fact that now every sentinel can do what Carrier did and also, at no cost and every sentinel will be able to potentially do it's thing without any interruption and vacuum as well, then it seems like a reason enough. Even now, Carrier can not shoot while using Vacuum and can not use Vacuum while shooting. With the new Vacuum being a passive, Dethcube will be able to shoot and loot at the same time. Wyrm will be able to CC and loot at the same time.

The problem with you guys is that you are only concentrating on the nerf, forgetting or ignoring entirely the buff about how every sentinel can use it now without any interruption to it's own abilities. But no, you guys will ignore that part and whine about 5m without even play-testing it(Yes, play-testing matters because the gif Steve shared looked perfectly fine and therefore the 5m range needs to be play-tested first to see how much loot we are actually missing out.).

[shyguyk]

sigh, i didnt know 89% of the playerbase is that lazy

[Gritzan]

8 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

About terrorists :)

My allegory was a way to make your point seem crazy. Your allegory tries to make your point make sense, and it doesn't.

 

9 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

About terrorists :)

It might not be a reason enough alone, but when you add to this the fact that now every sentinel can do what Carrier did and also, at no cost and every sentinel will be able to potentially do it's thing without any interruption and vacuum as well, then it seems like a reason enough. Even now, Carrier can not shoot while using Vacuum and can not use Vacuum while shooting. With the new Vacuum being a passive, Dethcube will be able to shoot and loot at the same time. Wyrm will be able to CC and loot at the same time.

The problem with you guys is that you are only concentrating on the nerf, forgetting or ignoring entirely the buff about how every sentinel can use it now without any interruption to it's own abilities. But no, you guys will ignore that part and whine about 5m without even play-testing it(Yes, play-testing matters because the gif Steve shared looked perfectly fine and therefore the 5m range needs to be play-tested first to see how much loot we are actually missing out.).

Interesting that you're talking about waiting for play testing and then also assume that the sentinel's other abilities won't be hampered by the passive vacuum. How do you know that? Do you have access to the code? Are you from the future?

 

On the other hand, simple math is proof that going from 12m range to 5m range is a massive decrease in the area your vacuum is covering, and it's a massive decrease that has no reason to exist. We don't need baseless assumptions(like yours) to confirm that.

 

And going from the gif it's very easy to see how bad the new vacuum is. Old 12m vacuum would have picked up that mod before the door even opened.

 

[shyguyk]

1 minute ago, Gritzan said:

 

And going from the gif it's very easy to see how bad the new vacuum is. Old 12m vacuum would have picked up that mod before the door even opened.

 

say the old range was 1m, thats still a 500% increase when you dont feel like running carrier.

It means instead of walking up to stuff now, you can bullet jump in the general direction and get what you need to.

[RoninJed]

2 hours ago, siralextraffo said:

True, but the percentage of people who only use Carrier because of the Vacuum but would rather use another Sentinel is not that small either, so I'm pretty sure we can consider this a buff to almost all Sentinels, which is great.

5mt is absolutely fine, unless you want to completely stand still in a 3rd person shooter featuring space ninjas with magic; but in that case, despite taking advantage of a power in an intended way, you're probably not playing the game as it's intended to be.

The majority here is meaningless, as the totality of us will have vacuum!

 

Yeah I'm all for this vacuum for all sentinels idea...will definitely give us more options. I just don't like how people are acting like vacuum was broken and op when some of us have played the game for almost three years and carriers vacuum has always been 12 meters in range. Nobody knows what it's going to be like at 5 meters but some are already saying it's fine hehe. I will wait a see for myself when they release the vacuum update if it's good at 5 meters or not. 

[DEADSHOT456]

1 minute ago, Gritzan said:

Interesting that you're talking about waiting for play testing and then also assume that the sentinel's other abilities won't be hampered by the passive vacuum. How do you know that? Do you have access to the code? Are you from the future?

Because its a passive? Warframes follow the same trend. Yes, it is indeed an assumption and if my assumption is wrong, I would agree with you that new Vacuum sucks. Until that time, let the update hit. I don't see any point in arguing.

3 minutes ago, Gritzan said:

And going from the gif it's very easy to see how bad the new vacuum is. Old 12m vacuum would have picked up that mod before the door even opened.

What's the point? You would have gone through the door anyway and picked it up anyway.

The only time that I can think of where you won't get the loot is from the rooms with hidden entrances. And I am glad that will be the case. If you need the loot from hidden rooms, go inside. Carrier bypassed it in the first place and made those rooms worthless to even try to enter.

[Gritzan]

Just now, shyguyk said:

say the old range was 1m, thats still a 500% increase when you dont feel like running carrier.

It means instead of walking up to stuff now, you can bullet jump in the general direction and get what you need to.

that's a 125x increase. Don't just look at the radius, calculate the entire area of pickup as a sphere. We all spend a lot of time flying around, vertical vacuum is used often.

 

The default pickup range is between 2-3m,  by the way, so it's not that big of a difference.

[Gritzan]

1 minute ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

What's the point? You would have gone through the door anyway and picked it up anyway.

On that logic I'm not sure why we're having this discussion at all, since your answer to having no vacuum would still be "you'd have picked it anyway".

 

It's about picking it up faster. And my point is that even on the cherry picked example made by Steve there's still a noticeable difference between the old and new vacuum. When you're playing a real game with four people where things are dropping loot all around you, 12m x 5m will have a remarkable difference in amount of time spent rolling on the ground picking up loot.

[----Fenrir----]

I really don't get DE. What's the point in nerfing an ability that only makes things slightly more convenient without affecting game balance in any real way? If anything DE should think about ways to make picking up loot more convenient across the board! It's a huge issue in archwing as well. There it's either take Itzal with his "greedy pull in space" ability or end up with basically no loot at all in the more open levels.

 

13 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

The problem with you guys is that you are only concentrating on the nerf, forgetting or ignoring entirely the buff about how every sentinel can use it now without any interruption to it's own abilities. But no, you guys will ignore that part and whine about 5m without even play-testing it(Yes, play-testing matters because the gif Steve shared looked perfectly fine and therefore the 5m range needs to be play-tested first to see how much loot we are actually missing out.).

Because the nerf is the part that matters. And most other sentinels are really not an alternative for Carrier Prime in most cases simply because they are so damn Squishy! I was using Helios to scan the nightmare event units this weekend and I basically had to use Loki and stay invisible in order for Helios to survive more than ~30 seconds into the match and actually do some scanning. Carrier Prime at least can take a hit or two in most cases which makes a HUGE difference because a destroyed sentinel is as useless as it gets.

[shyguyk]

2 minutes ago, Gritzan said:

On that logic I'm not sure why we're having this discussion at all, since your answer to having no vacuum would still be "you'd have picked it anyway".

 

It's about picking it up faster. And my point is that even on the cherry picked example made by Steve there's still a noticeable difference between the old and new vacuum. When you're playing a real game with four people where things are dropping loot all around you, 12m x 5m will have a remarkable difference in amount of time spent rolling on the ground picking up loot.

Of course you dont HAVE to go around picking up all that loot, but you all choose to. You got to pick between finishing the mission faster (not including survival) and getting all the drops. they arent a necessary requirement.

If you still want to scoop everything in a huge radius up, pick mirage with a simulor or vauban and walk into the vortices

Guy above me makes a proper point on why you SHOULD use carrier over other guys. Not vacuum, but better survivability

Edited October 5, 2016 by shyguyk

[Vox_Preliator]

6 hours ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

That's the trade off for having it on every sentinel, especially as a passive. Everything in life has a trade off. Did you guys really think DE would just make Carrier's Vacuum sentinel-wide without any drawback?

I mean come on, Carrier can only suck and shoot now, but after the change, Carrier would give you ammo, suck and shoot. Helios will scan, suck and shoot. Shade will stealth, suck and shoot. It is common sense that there would be a trade off in this scenario.

I thought they made it pretty damn clear that free vacuum for everyone with no drawbacks was straight-up not going to happen, period, no you will not change our minds don't bother trying.

Which is why they brought up a great compromise, which was immediately shot down by everyone for not being the massive buff "everyone" wanted so instead of getting vacuum for every sentinel with control over what was looted in exchange for HAVING US MAKE TRADE-OFFS AND DECIDE WHETHER SURVIVABILITY, DPS, OR UTILITY IS MORE IMPORTANT, (Y'KNOW, THE CORNERSTONE OF THE MODDING SYSTEM) we're getting uncontrollable autoloot with a smaller range.

On another note, has there actually been any official confirmation that Carrier is getting its 12m range outright removed and replaced with ammo regeneration, or it that just what people are assuming with no evidence because that's what was suggested when they brought up the 3 mod split?

[Gritzan]

Just now, shyguyk said:

Of course you dont HAVE to go around picking up all that loot, but you all choose to. You got to pick between finishing the mission faster (not including survival) and getting all the drops. they arent a necessary requirement.

If you still want to scoop everything in a huge radius up, pick mirage with a simulor or vauban and walk into the vortices

I also don't have to play the game at all, what's your point here?

 

Picking up all the loot is not a necessity, just as playing this game isn't. However, if I do play the game, I'd like some useful conveniences like picking up loot faster.

[shyguyk]

Just now, Gritzan said:

I also don't have to play the game at all, what's your point here?

 

Picking up all the loot is not a necessity, just as playing this game isn't. However, if I do play the game, I'd like some useful conveniences like picking up loot faster.

My point is you all talk like the 12m radius is mandatory. that is absolute bs.

[Gritzan]

2 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

 

HAVING US MAKE TRADE-OFFS AND DECIDE WHETHER SURVIVABILITY, DPS, OR UTILITY IS MORE IMPORTANT, (Y'KNOW, THE CORNERSTONE OF THE MODDING SYSTEM)

Nice caps lock bold italic underlined sentence there, makes your point that much more convincing.

 

Vacuum is not utility.

Enemy Radar is utility.

Vacuum is a convenience. Having to make a loadout for convenience is like having to build a loadout where you have to put a mod to be able to use the alt fire and aim functions at the same time.

 

And again, if that's the change they want, we're here telling them it's a terrible idea and they should scrap it.
This is an open beta, right? Changes are not set in stone.

Edited October 5, 2016 by Gritzan

[----Fenrir----]

2 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

Thing is though that Kavats/Kubrows are already much better than Sentinels in most ways.
They have better precepts.  They deal more damage.  They have a ton more survivability.  All around Kavats/Kubrows are superior to sentinels in every way.

Sentinels do not require constant babysitting.

[Sloan441]

Be careful what you ask for...

Also, there's room for adjustment here if it is to be made universal.

[Gritzan]

7 minutes ago, shyguyk said:

My point is you all talk like the 12m radius is mandatory. that is absolute bs.

Nothing in this game is mandatory, you're making the same point as before.

 

We already have a 12m radius vacuum, we(as in, non insane people) like it and we're going to lose it. We're here on the forums complaining about it and asking this change not to go through, part of our feedback for this game that has been in open beta for longer than most games are in full dev cycles + DLC release.

 

We're doing this mainly because it has zero reason to go through. Breaking what's working perfectly well, while not solving anything.

Edited October 5, 2016 by Gritzan

[----Fenrir----]

5 minutes ago, Gritzan said:

Vacuum is not utility.

Enemy Radar is utility.

Vacuum is a convenience.

Precisely, which is why Carrier is currently in a class of it's own. Apart from Helios, It's the only companion that makes things more convenient. And Helios only provides convenience as long as someone still needs to do some scanning.

[Troll_Logic]

11 hours ago, Racter said:

So after literally years of people asking for universal, frame based vacuum for pick ups, you proposed splitting it into three mods that do the same job as current. Still sentinel restricted, very obviously a nerf. Massive wave of salt over this, and you come back with this? 5m range, still only works on sentinels? This is, again, far worse than just leaving it alone.

It is not "far worse than just leaving it alone."  I'd say it's a pretty big step forward.

Ok, it doesn't affect cats & dogs.  That blows, but I think we're getting there eventually.  Maybe we will, maybe we won't.  But innate vacuum has been added so we are closer.

 

Ok, so vacuum is no longer a mod.  That a big plus.

It's innate on all sentinels.  So now players can use any sentinel as have vacuum.  That HUGE.  Now players have invis, scanning, crowd control, and offensive capabilities and still have vacuum.  It's HUGE.  The player basically has TWO sentinels now. 

 

Ok, the pickup radius is smaller.  That blows.  It really does.  But your missing that point that "It's still there."  It may be smaller but it's large enough and everyone is getting the HUGE benefit of picking additional capabilities of the sentinels.

 

This is a major benefit.  Sure, it's a small nerf IF the player is sticking only with carrier.  But why would the player do that because they can have the functional equivalent of two sentinels.

 

This is only a good thing. 

[DoomFruit]

7 minutes ago, ----Fenrir---- said:

Sentinels do not require constant babysitting.

Sentinel weapons are also better at CC and applying procs. The sweeper (prime) I run is extremely effective at blasting down and electrifying anything that gets close enough to harm me

[Troll_Logic]

16 minutes ago, ----Fenrir---- said:

I was using Helios to scan the nightmare event units this weekend and I basically had to use Loki and stay invisible in order for Helios to survive more than ~30 seconds into the match and actually do some scanning. Carrier Prime at least can take a hit or two in most cases which makes a HUGE difference because a destroyed sentinel is as useless as it gets.

Dude, you are arguing against yourself.

You were playing Loki and you needed scanning, right?  Now you have vacuum as well as scanning from the helios.

[shyguyk]

7 minutes ago, Gritzan said:

We're doing this mainly because it has zero reason to go through. Breaking what's working perfectly well, while not solving anything.

This was the argument of many a tonkor, mesa, and trinity user

[Daemonicvs]

I seriously have no idea what DE is thinking. Why can't they just admit that they've been wrong and make vacuum truly universal?

[Gritzan]

2 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

This is only a good thing. 

you can have the functional equivalent of 1.16 sentinels, if you assume that the other abilities are worth using a sentinel over vacuum at all.

They're not, that's the entire reason passive vacuum was introduced in the first place.

 

Other sentinel abilities are garbage compared to vacuum gourd.. Now vacuum gourd is garbage. Now every sentinel is just two pieces of garbage instead of one. A shame we lost the one truly good sentinel on this, though.