The Vacuum Within: Hotfix #2

[Belluset]

12 minutes ago, EnderDDT said:

Turning Vacuum into a mod makes an old problem even worse, namely the list mods that automatically go on your sentinels is just too crowded...

The solution of turning vacuum into a mod was the wrong one. What we need is vacuum to be inherent to warframes themselves.

The Vacuum ability is being treated as a luxury...

Simply put: Vacuum makes the game more fun and less of a chore. There is no good reason to restrict players from having it all the time. If I am wrong about that point someone can point that out to me, but I have never heard any reason why having that limited area-ability was ever a bad thing other than people wrongly thinking that wanting universal Vacuum is all about laziness. Perhaps someone else will have an argument I've never heard, but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it.

1. Have you seen the list of mods that go on your Warframe? It's about choice. You can't have everything. Kind of the point.

2. There's a frame with inherent vacuum effect. I don't think that the current state of certain things that have been made context actions (stars) or that aren't picked up by vacuum of any type (reactants) is a good one, but I don't see why this particular fix is a problem. This is a minor issue that people are allowing DE (and I love DE, don't get me wrong) to distract their players with. The good of that is that it probably affords DE time to fix some things with the actual story content update while people are looking the other way. The bad is... how many more cosmetic updates are we going to have to suffer through before we get another content update that *advances* the game instead of just revisiting and fixing (?) stuff that's already in the game (SotR)?

3. It *is* a luxury. Do I think the general pickup range on Warframes could be upped a *little*? Sure. I'm sick of having to step on reactants to pick them up. I'm sick of having to step on ammo within arm's reach to do the same. The exceptional range that Vacuum affords, however, would seem a little silly to me if it were inherent to all frames.

4. Should Prime Fury and crit be inherent to all melee weapons, then? Or multi-shot and crit inherent to all ranged? Same type of argument. It's about customization and giving the players something to ponder in their builds. Figure out what's worth sacrificing and what's not. I don't recall a post from DE accusing players of being lazy for wanting Vacuum. As someone not representing DE, however, I will say that expecting a universal 12m item pickup area does lean in that direction. I don't mind having to make a decision to sacrifice a mod slot on a companion. It's not like companions are going to significantly, if at all, tilt the balance of power in end-game content, anyway.

In my own opinion? This is a big step for a somewhat minor issue. Vacuum on a single sentinel being the *only* way to boost the paltry default pickup range was a mistake. Yes, the range from Vacuum should be treated as a luxury, but also as a *bonus*. It shouldn't have been 'Vacuum or crawl through a mission looking for your loot' from the start. It should have been 'pick up the things directly surrounding you within a small radius and Vacuum mod to pick up things in a much larger radius'.

[EnderDDT]

1 hour ago, Belluset said:

1. Have you seen the list of mods that go on your Warframe? It's about choice. You can't have everything. Kind of the point.

2. There's a frame with inherent vacuum effect. I don't think that the current state of certain things that have been made context actions (stars) or that aren't picked up by vacuum of any type (reactants) is a good one, but I don't see why this particular fix is a problem. This is a minor issue that people are allowing DE (and I love DE, don't get me wrong) to distract their players with. The good of that is that it probably affords DE time to fix some things with the actual story content update while people are looking the other way. The bad is... how many more cosmetic updates are we going to have to suffer through before we get another content update that *advances* the game instead of just revisiting and fixing (?) stuff that's already in the game (SotR)?

3. It *is* a luxury. Do I think the general pickup range on Warframes could be upped a *little*? Sure. I'm sick of having to step on reactants to pick them up. I'm sick of having to step on ammo within arm's reach to do the same. The exceptional range that Vacuum affords, however, would seem a little silly to me if it were inherent to all frames.

4. Should Prime Fury and crit be inherent to all melee weapons, then? Or multi-shot and crit inherent to all ranged? Same type of argument. It's about customization and giving the players something to ponder in their builds. Figure out what's worth sacrificing and what's not. I don't recall a post from DE accusing players of being lazy for wanting Vacuum. As someone not representing DE, however, I will say that expecting a universal 12m item pickup area does lean in that direction. I don't mind having to make a decision to sacrifice a mod slot on a companion. It's not like companions are going to significantly, if at all, tilt the balance of power in end-game content, anyway.

In my own opinion? This is a big step for a somewhat minor issue. Vacuum on a single sentinel being the *only* way to boost the paltry default pickup range was a mistake. Yes, the range from Vacuum should be treated as a luxury, but also as a *bonus*. It shouldn't have been 'Vacuum or crawl through a mission looking for your loot' from the start. It should have been 'pick up the things directly surrounding you within a small radius and Vacuum mod to pick up things in a much larger radius'.

The idea that I believe has been put out the strongest is a larger passive range and a mod (either slotable into the aura or exilus slot) that further increases range. Expecting universal 12 isn't the issue, recognizing that a sizable vacuum is so much of a QoL improvement that it makes everything else pale in comparison is the issue. Even DE pointed out how big an issue this has become. Honestly, it seems like what you said in your last paragraph agrees with this completely. I'm not completely sure where our disagreement lies.

My point is that the there is the issue of mod crowding on sentinels that needs to be remembered. Yes, there is always a choice; but when the community sees one thing as the "right" choice 80% of the time (despite a myriad of other options) we get the current situation with DE wanting to promote diversity. Sentinal diversity and mod diversity on those sentinels is the same issue, just looked at from different directions.

As for Vaccum being a "Luxury" rather than a "Quality of Life" issue (or if you view them both as the same thing), that's probably personal opinion either way. Honestly, so long as you aren't belittling those who want that feature, I don't see how it makes a difference which it is. If this is a change that will make the game better for the vast majority of people, and there in very little compelling reason to not make the change, then why not?

Finally, as for your #4: not all weapons use crit, and there are a few that don't need attack-speed or multi-shot as much either (though that is pretty rare). My Covert Lethality dagger, for instance, uses neither crit nor attack-speed in any significant way. The designers have, during Prime-Time talked about removing the base damage weapon mods and making their bonuses inherant upon leveling the weapons. This isn't to say that this idea will work out, only that there is precedent for the idea that something universal may be better as a inherant bonus than as a modable "choice".

[Grebnennar]

21 hours ago, BlueTunicLink said:

Well true. But how many people prefer more ammo? Gor some guns sure but a vast majority doesn't need more ammo. Plus there are ammo restores if needed. I don't use ammo mutations or increase my magizine clip/capacity. Really i onlu used those mods on my secura penta. Other than that i had all out damage

I'm just implying that carrier gives 2 free ammo mods for 1. There is no other abilities on the sentinels that compare with 2 free ammo mods.

[Parvani]

On 10/6/2016 at 4:53 PM, SPARTANXG117 said:

I honestly don't know what to make of this... yes, we get the original Vacuum back, but it's no longer innate and now requires a mod slot... not sure what to think of this at all...

 

EDIT: First page? Wow. Never been on here before...

But Vacuum took a mod slot before too...even before it was given to multiple Sentinels.

[DarkOvion]

1 hour ago, Grebnennar said:

I'm just implying that carrier gives 2 free ammo mods for 1. There is no other abilities on the sentinels that compare with 2 free ammo mods.

So... a 5 rank mod, taking up a mod slot, that is dual effect and provides the equivalent of 2 level 3 mods, it 2 free mods?
Cos it sort of feels like 'one free rank' honestly.

[Alanthier]

Can you do us a favor, and fix how you're paired with random people in games? Because i'm sick of being paired with a hosts who are running the game on the worlds first electric toaster models and not being able to even JOIN the game half the time, being either kicked back to lobby, or getting stuck in the loading screen with the drop ship forever flying.  And before you flamers say to lower the ping that you want to be able to connect to, it's already at it's lowest for the limit, and still half the time it connects to people over that who are the host, but as soon as they drop for some reason, all is well.  Make hosts migrate to the person who IS the best host with the better connection.

Edited October 8, 2016 by Alanthier

[AutoPhox]

Im really liking the change!

gg DE

[bouabid_samir]

thanks for all teams ; now after this hot fix the vaccum become the best way for tennos to use all sentinels, not just carrier.

for me now helios become a best for game play and the codex. 

so we are waiting for helios prime and shade, djinn; diriga; deth cube prime ! 9000 xp for eatch one.....cool

thanks, thanks, thanks,

 

[Belluset]

3 hours ago, EnderDDT said:

I'm not completely sure where our disagreement lies.

Finally, as for your #4: not all weapons use crit, and there are a few that don't need attack-speed or multi-shot as much either (though that is pretty rare). My Covert Lethality dagger, for instance, uses neither crit nor attack-speed in any significant way. The designers have, during Prime-Time talked about removing the base damage weapon mods and making their bonuses inherant upon leveling the weapons. This isn't to say that this idea will work out, only that there is precedent for the idea that something universal may be better as a inherant bonus than as a modable "choice".

1. No disagreement, just discussion. I know it's the internet and it's generally "I hate what you're saying shut up, you're wrong", but meh. That takes too much energy when you can actually just talk to people. The truth of productive conversations is that people are willing to admit where they find common ground while introducing their own opinions on the issue at hand.

2. The stats were chosen for the sake of example only. Sorry for the confusion.

I wholeheartedly believe that there's a difference between a minor pick up distance improvement and a Vacuum effect. To the point where I wouldn't call the pick up distance improvement an inherent vacuum. It's hard for me to explain through text, but I'm considering the pick up distance to be maybe 10 times larger than what it is now (which is essentially 10*0, let's be honest). Nothing huge, but something that would make it possible to walk past something that's a foot or two (scale) to any side of the Warframe and pick it up instead of having to be on top of it. Or maybe, literally, as far as the wingspan of an example frame. Let's say Excal's wingspan.

That would be a QOL improvement, while keeping Mag's passive unique and allowing for the persistence and usefulness of a Vacuum mod. Also, no more making new drops context actions without reason. Sure, it makes sense for something you're transporting from point A to point B *within* a mission (ie Power Cells), but Ayatan stars? Why? Keeping reactants from being affected by Vacuum range when they're no longer a point A to point B item? Why?

Edited October 8, 2016 by Belluset

[Telogor]

On ‎2016‎-‎10‎-‎06 at 4:50 PM, [DE]Megan said:

Vacuum is now an equippable Mod (Precept) for all Sentinels. We have also increased the range from 6m to 12m at max rank.

Please revert this.  Sentinels don't have enough room for precepts in the first place, and now you're trying to make me use another one?

[DarkOvion]

Just now, Telogor said:

Please revert this.  Sentinels don't have enough room for precepts in the first place, and now you're trying to make me use another one?

No one is making you use anything.

If you were fine before, you'd surely be fine now.

Of course, if you want to use it, yes, you'll need to find a slot.

But really, with the 7-8 'default' mods I'm using now (Calculated Redirection, Enhanced Vitality, Guardian, Regen, Animal Instinct, Medi-Ray, Vacuum, Optional: Sanctuary), that leaves 2-3 for sentinel specific precepts, and really, most of the rest of the mods are a bit meh anyway.

[morningstar999]

10 minutes ago, Telogor said:

Please revert this.  Sentinels don't have enough room for precepts in the first place, and now you're trying to make me use another one?

you sir are a minority in this opinion.  

having it as a mod at 12m range for all sentinels is about what 90%+ of  the players wanted to begin with.

Edited October 8, 2016 by morningstar999

[aerosoul1337]

A good change despite many people will still use carrier prime since it's pretty tanky.

Many players should have spent potato and forma on it.

So it should take more time to analyze the statistics.

[3allvalve]

You want balance without being same, same? Give the Kat the ability to chew out better drops. And, you gotta know, we're looking forward to the Kavat's Primed something. Yes. Somebody forgot to finish. Your new Kavat is coming up short, big-time. When I say better  I really mean to say BETTER.

[LightningsVengance]

Thanks for the vacuum DE, now I can go back to using shade for his stealth precept... mwhehe (still waiting for the vacuum without update assuming that's gonna be a thing /sarcasm/)

[-PwF-Eliono]

Ty DE!  GG.

Dont hear all these plp that want it all... life its full of diferent choices.

For all those mates who want it all in one: Please *@##$! Stop moaning right now.

Edited October 8, 2016 by -NNC-Eliono
Encourage DE

[Prolbo]

Thanks DE! Lets make more things useless or pointly useless! Lets slow game process by artificial metods instead to develop more deep gameplay! Great logic!

Lets nerf auto loot instead to make well developed and coplex mission with secondary tasks wich garantee better revards.

Lets create foes with ultimate dmg resists & even special dmg resists instead to overhaul all damage-scaling-lvling system

And of course lets remoove Void & Void endless missions cause players farm prime-scrap too fast and too easy! And say that new system is only for good, for better...

Edited October 8, 2016 by Prolbo

[alanchat]

Très bonne idée de rendre toute les sentinelles aspirantes d'objet par contre, La portée du ramassage est vraiment minable ! 

good job, by cons, the scope of the collection is really seedy

[Zed993]

Just started playing again and this happened! I must admit I'm rather pleased. This change is what I've been wanting to happen to vacuum since a few months after Carrier was released. Now just make vacuum a general companion mod and it'll be perfect, or give kubravats their own universal version of the same thing.

[Kubos]

The groupesystem is still buggy

[Maka.Bones]

Thanks a lot for the quick feedback, making it optional, and allowing us to increase the range!

I only have conflict with the limited modd space for sentinels as more "essential" keep coming into play. With Mods like:

1)Guardian 

2)medi-ray

3)calculated redirection

4) metal fiber 

5)enhanced vitality 

6)accelerated deflection

7) Fired up (if you want the sentinel to do any damage) 

and now... 8)Vaccum  (I'm happy about it btw lol)

That only leaves 2 open spots for mods, and normally i'd want to use the sentinel specific precepts in those spots lol.... unless you give up the idea of your sentinel doing any damage and you want to give up fired up... in which case that's 3 modding slots available. 

 

So yeah, limited space >.<  QQ  Exilus adapter for sentinels/pets might be nice? or something of the sort. I mean they're robots, so we could upgrade em to have more mod space too... right? ;D

P.S. Excalibur is still bae :D

[Maka.Bones]

18 hours ago, Belluset said:

...Yes, the range from Vacuum should be treated as a luxury, but also as a *bonus*. It shouldn't have been 'Vacuum or crawl through a mission looking for your loot' from the start. It should have been 'pick up the things directly surrounding you within a small radius and Vacuum mod to pick up things in a much larger radius'.

10/10... Inherent small vaccum on sentinels would've been great, along with a mod to increase range. That would've been beautiful. *thumbs up*

[Endorphinz]

Wasn't there a big feedback thread or something? Like, is it ok to give feedback here?

[Pillagius]

 

On 10/6/2016 at 11:50 PM, [DE]Megan said:

All current Sentinel owners will receive this Mod instantly, as well as retroactively with every Sentinel crafted or purchased- much like other default Precepts.

Looks like I'm not a Sentinel owner, despite the fact that Carrier and other strange looking bots been flying next to me for years. 

[Babellon]

I liked the 6m passive personally. The objective was to encourage more use out of the other sentinels, which they accomplished. 

The second phase of that experiment was/is aimed at the companions. The question on the table at this point is, how do we implement the radial pickup to apply to a 'pet' creature that moves with its own AI rather than blindly following the player per sentinel behavior.

Do they adjust the behavior of companions? I think some adjustments are needed since far to often companions wander off, get stuck, or don't respond at all.

Do they make all companions have a precept similar to what they did with 'vacuum' but call it something different and make a universal precept mod out of it?

Would it be game breaking to make a universal Pickup as standard, but then what range, people went nuts over losing those 6m from vacuum. Do we keep it 12 meter universal pickup radius and forgo the entire mod tendency both on pets and on sentinels?

I think if we want to seriously have a conversation with the developers we need to firstly address ourselves and how we present feedback, secondly use appropriate language and communication skills, thirdly develop a concrete idea that we can express to them.