Jump to content
Dante Unbound: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

Crit vs status, how to fix the late


viamont
 Share

Recommended Posts

Whe all know that crit based builds are boss...hardly any status weapon can make a dent on their reing of damage, and for the most part said weapons are kind of tied to specific frames or builds (saryn+torid for example), with this in mind i heres an idea i would like to discuss with all of you and hear your opinions:

Probably some of you are familiar with the game monster hunter, in said game i noticed that for the most part weapons follow a certain criteria (with a few exceptions but still holds), most of the time crit based weapons have low raw damage to compensate for the damage bonus of said crits (+25% boost on MH), with this for the most part you have to work around crit based builds on your armors, on the other hand high raw weapons tend to have very little to negative crit damage. Now based on this little explanation what would you tink of the next:

CRIT BASED WEAPONS

Crit based weapons should have low raw damage

Crit damage gets a slight bonus on said weapons (IF needed)

Status gets fixated in general on low numbers (perhaps nothing above 15%)

Elemental damage crit bonuses gets hard caped (not sure about the numbers)

 

STATUS BASED WEAPONS

High raw damage in general

Crit stats become very low (nothing above 10%)

Status chance gets buffed slightly (depending on the weapon)

NEW crit chance based instead of status (wich would increase the elemental damage)

NEW crit damage bonus (applied ONLY to elemental damage)

Raw damage crit bonuses gets hard caped (same as above)

 

In adition with this new changes there can be new mods to work for status, be something along the lines of berserker (but instead proccing when theres a status efect applied), or would also make other mods more apealing for said builds (lingering torment for example)

Let me know what you tink about this crazy little idea i would love to hear your opinions

Edited by viamont
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, viamont said:

Crit based weapons should have low raw damage

in example of Soma Prime;

Physical "Raw" damage;
12.0

Crtical aspect of Soma; 
30% Crit chance
3.0x Crit multiplier


In Warframe's universe, most if not all "crit based" weapons have low "raw" damage.
The reason why crits are so broken in warframe is the janky armor scaling, and how powerful criting can get.

Paris prime, if modded right, can do over 9k+ damage with a single shot.




However, I do know DE has their thumb on making Status damage more beneficial, it's just a matter of when.

Edited by Roominashum
status info
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The whole assumption of crit being better than status is wrong in the first place tbh... Slashproccs are the strongest thing in this game, especially if you play solo since you dont have armorstrip with 4 CP auras in your group. Slashproccs ignore armor shields and therefore are your strongest dmg source when going against highlvl targets. You can try paris prime vs Dread against lvl 1k+ mobs if you dont believe me, but i wont argue about facts here.

Fact of the matter is that all the elements except for slash vs armored targets are completely useless with rising levels, because in the extreme scenario, even critweapons will do 1 dmg per shot/hit whatever, just slashweapons will keep doing their 35% basedmg  as bleeding DoT on your target, which is why i play viral+slash or pure slash on melee vs every faction and i can pretty much kill lvl 10k mobs without any issues. And THAT ladies and gents is the true problem with this whole damagesystem: Infinetely scaling enemies... And it is not an easy one to solve either, because as of right now "nuker" frames in lowlevel areas (I'd say 1-40) seem overpowered, because they literally oneshot everything. They do however fall off at some point (Ash a little bit later without fatal teleport), and so do crit based weapons.

Feel free to go to the simulacrum and try the soma prime vs lvl 140 eximus mobs: It is gonna take more than one whole magazine with only headshots to down them.

So no, crit weapons are not OP and they arent trumping in any scenario. In fact slash status vs slash crit will always come out on top.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

You can try paris prime vs Dread against lvl 1k+ mobs

level 1000+ mobs are highly irrelevant. The highest a player will encounter during normal play (not extended endless missions) is 150, and even then that is a Trial or an endless Sortie final mission. Sure, crit falls off by 1000, but what does that matter if the average player never goes that far?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Further on the topic of status: What about Impact, or Puncture, or Magnetic? Compare to Slash, these come off as inferior. A system is not well executed if only one facet of it is considered useful. Let me repeat: A system is not well executed if only one facet of it (Slash) is considered useful.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Cephalon_Esrius said:

Further on the topic of status: What about Impact, or Puncture, or Magnetic? Compare to Slash, these come off as inferior. A system is not well executed if only one facet of it is considered useful. Let me repeat: A system is not well executed if only one facet of it (Slash) is considered useful.

exactly... All other status proccs kinda suck, which is my main point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Or just make status weapons have 250% innate multishot 

that way status could be applied way more quickly and the damage would be on par with crit 

there should also exist some hybrid weapons like the vaykor marelok but their base damage should be halved then 

15 minutes ago, ...Natsu... said:

The whole assumption of crit being better than status is wrong in the first place tbh... Slashproccs are the strongest thing in this game

Slash procs are really nice but not every status weapon can proc them, look at the secura lecta. Apart from that I agree with you 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Roominashum said:

You didn't even talk about aforementioned statuses in your reply, though...

Probably because i expected the audience to know in-depth stuff, which might have been a mistake... however I'd like to point out that the "average gamer" will be fine with any weapon if they just play the starmap so this discussion would be pointless if it was directed at those players.

So i think what i said remains correct, even if i talked about only slashproccs, but those will always trump in the current enviroment, no matter what you play against.

HOWEVER i think the real problem are weapons that have both high crit AND status chances such as atterax, galatine prime, nikana prime to name a few melees here, because they are just overpowering anything in the book by just existing.

Edited by ...Natsu...
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think these would work in Warframe.

First off, Monster Hunter can get away with the small critical hit damage multipliers because these small numbers are enough to differentiate weapons apart from each other. Building a weapon for critical hit damage literally costs you all of your customization resources.

Monster Hunter also has a few quirks that also make it difficult to compare with Warframe. Almost all boosts to stats in Monster Hunter are absolute numbers, not relative numbers. Critical Eye +3 increases your critical hit rate by a flat +30 regardless of the weapon's base critical hit rate. This means several things. One, it is viable, even recommended, to run a critical hit build on a weapon with a negative critical hit rate because critical hits are multiplicative with their high raw damage (I'm thinking Rajang and Ukanlos weapons). Two, this allows weapons to have critical hit rates on both extremes (final form Great Swords in Monster Hunter Generations range from -70% to +65% base critical hit rate) without making upgrades imbalanced due to being additive and not multiplicative to the base value. Three, weapons are typically perfectly viable with a wide range of possible builds and even with no skills whatsoever (which is often the case all the way until endgame when you actually get access to armor sets and talismans that can stack three or four non-throwaway skills at once).

In Warframe, mods provide huge bonuses. In most other games, it is unheard of to have a single upgrade multiply your damage by 2.65 (Serration), another that multiplies your damage by 1.9 (Split Chamber), and another that multiplies your damage by 1.9 (any 90% elemental mod), all of which stacking multiplicatively with each other, before finally having to deal with diminishing returns with five more upgrades on top of those.

If the numbers on raw stats are to be reduced, mods that modify those raw stats will either have to have their effects increased to compensate, which will lead to the same situation we currently have, or those mods will fall into obscurity because there are so many other mods out there that boost your damage by a much, much higher amount. The only way this would be feasible would be to reduce all mods to have much smaller numbers, which is a much larger scope of changes compared to what you're currently proposing.

 

I'm not even going to touch status because the brunt of the issue is that balancing the critical hit mechanic in Warframe by lowering its numbers would require too many changes to other core mechanics because mods in general typically have too high of numbers to balance in a reasonable way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my opinion crit isn't overpowered, certain crit weapons are. E.g. Tonkor, Synoid Simulor, Maiming Strike (yes that is a weapon now, it turns anything with 10%+ crit and large range into an instant room clearer).

I happily waltz into games with my Rad Viral tonbo and devour enemies. Corrosive status builds on high hit rate weapons are also extremely effective. Keep in mind though that it only takes 3 corrosive procs to exceed a viral proc (2 comes just short) on armour. Even low hit rate weapons corrosive is very helpful in high level missions as you need those procs to make them killable.
I think perhaps the opinion of crit > status is because status requires thought in your build and crit is just 3-5 crit and damage mods, then whatever elements give the damage types you want. Of course you can go blind on Status weapons too and aim for slash. But even then, a lot of crit weapons have very high hit rates making even 10% status chance usable for corrosive procs, especially when coupled with dual stat elemental mods, E.g. Soma Prime.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Status actually isn't bad. You just need the right status effects and setup to take advantage of them. Mutualist Cernos, for example, is my weapon of choice in one of my Oberon builds. Keeping heavies pinned down with Reckoning and cold procs, while destroying their armor with corrosive is quite effective, while I pick other things off. I then usually prefer to finish them off with Jat Kittag for that nice Vulkan Blitz AOE. It's tied for my most effective loadout. Another good example is magnetic Ignis with a viral and electric Serro. That works well against corpus. Gas and electricity also generally works well. Sometimes, you'd wanna use a weapon not only for the damage. Electricity, blast, or cold would do well in such a situation. I often use blast status weapons with melee weapons which are good for ground finishers. Weapons like Glaxion and Ignis pair well with weapons like Twin Basolk and Ripkas. Another thing I do is, knock an enemy down with Reckoning, destroy their armor with Tysis, then finish them off with Ripkas. Never have I needed second melee attack with that combo. Status is good if used well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On October 16, 2016 at 2:21 AM, AwesmePersn said:

Let status go over 100% . . . wouldn't that be interesting?

Some already can and there's no point. Unlike getting over 100% which means you get red crits, over 100% status does nothing useful happens. And from what I've read in past threads, it's a bit unclear on what exactly happens. Some say your proc has a chance to proc, others say it's nothing more than the chances of you procing different things increase, while some even say it does nothing but increase the duration of your proc. It's a bit unclear

 

Edited by PoobahTheGrand
Link to comment
Share on other sites

For the weapons who deal status per second going over 100% is quite useful. With Vile Acceleration my Ignis deals 161.5% status per second, which means I can basically instaproc whole groups of enemies. Radiation + Viral is what I've tried so far, since I main Mag and can easily strip armour. Used it a few times on Hieracon and killed in the beginning the most enemies (used Nekros). IIRC after enemies hitting level 50 the other players were catching up, but the rad procs helped quite a lot to deal with the ancients. Even used it in all Sortie missions, whereby in higher ones, I sometimes was just supporting the others. But in the last sorties I combined my Ignis with the Growing Power aura and was quite pleased with the result. Interesting combo for frames with damaging abilities.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, PoobahTheGrand said:

Some already can and there's no point. Unlike getting over 100% which means you get red crits, over 100% status does nothing useful happens. And from what I've read in past threads, it's a bit unclear on what exactly happens. Some say your proc has a chance to proc, others say it's nothing more than the chances of you procing different things increase, while some even say it does nothing but increase the duration of your proc. It's a bit unclear

 

When it is a continuous fire weapon (ignis, Gammacor) they have status/s and that can go over 100%. That just means you are proccing, on average, more than one status effect each second.
Non-continuous fire weapons have a status stat that is the chance per shot fired (not bullet/projectile) that a status will be procced. This cannot go over 100%. You can at most proc 1 status effect per shot. This is what AwesmePersn is asking for, that we can push this over 100%. DE has disallowed this for the same reason projectiles from multishot are considered as one with status. So you can't proc everything with 1 shot.

I would like to be able to go over 100% status chance, but very few weapons can so it wouldn't affect much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, Fansay said:

When it is a continuous fire weapon (ignis, Gammacor) they have status/s and that can go over 100%. That just means you are proccing, on average, more than one status effect each second.
Non-continuous fire weapons have a status stat that is the chance per shot fired (not bullet/projectile) that a status will be procced. This cannot go over 100%. You can at most proc 1 status effect per shot. This is what AwesmePersn is asking for, that we can push this over 100%. DE has disallowed this for the same reason projectiles from multishot are considered as one with status. So you can't proc everything with 1 shot.

I would like to be able to go over 100% status chance, but very few weapons can so it wouldn't affect much.

I was referring to melee weapons

Edited by PoobahTheGrand
Link to comment
Share on other sites

i was more thinking into scaling damage with status weapons. Say Glaxion given the normal Corrosive Blast build; continuous fire causes each subsequent proc of said status to increase by Status Damage multiplicatively (cause generally most status weapons are somewhat low damage). Or just have Status Efficiency; which ultimately decides how well your status effect works.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2016. 10. 12. at 9:21 PM, Roominashum said:

in example of Soma Prime;

Physical "Raw" damage;
12.0

Crtical aspect of Soma; 
30% Crit chance
3.0x Crit multiplier


In Warframe's universe, most if not all "crit based" weapons have low "raw" damage.
The reason why crits are so broken in warframe is the janky armor scaling, and how powerful criting can get.

Paris prime, if modded right, can do over 9k+ damage with a single shot.




However, I do know DE has their thumb on making Status damage more beneficial, it's just a matter of when.

Status is good too at the moment but it only shines when you get it up to 100% really. Not many weapons can do that so I see why others would think that it's  very lacking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, status itself can be pretty damn powerful. It just needs right weapon. Usually it has to be shotgun which can reach 100% chance or high RoF weapon, best if it has slash. If you slap corrosive damage you will absolutely murder armored mobs.

I used to think status is bad but not anymore. Though it's primarly useful against armored mobs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12.10.2016 at 10:13 PM, viamont said:

Whe all know that crit based builds are boss...hardly any status weapon can make a dent on their reing of damage

Well I don't know... depends on the weapon.

96% Status Akstilettos completely mow down enemies while my 125% crit change Amprex sobs in the corner.

(=Seriously DE pls buff the Amprex)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...