Law of Retribution 2.0: More killing

[DrBorris]

Raids suck to play. I haven’t actually heard anyone say they enjoy playing raids, but of course there are those that still play it because of that sweet, sweet arcane market. But why is this?

 

It is the communities fault…

Hindsight 20/20, when DE made the poll asking what “we” wanted from raids and “we” responded “puzzles” by a considerable percentage I don’t think we fully thought out how that would be implemented… because it sucks. Sure, a puzzle is interesting the first time, but once you figure it out repeating it sucks.

This is a horde shooter where the diversity is in how we kill enemies. The most “end game” missions should be about, you know, killing enemies. This is what my proposal will come down to, making killing enemies a focus.

 

The common theme her is Power Cells (the things in Excavation). You have to kill enemies to get Power Cells to do the variety of things you do in LoR. This is the easiest way I could come up with to make killing enemies a part of the Raid while retaining its other parts.

 

Stage 1:

Rather than immediately getting your Tritium Battery and charging it with your energy reserves, charging will take place before you even get the Battery. This will be done with Power Cells much like in Excavation. In order to get the Tritium Battery you first hack the Tritium Stabilizer, same as now, but now you have to start inserting power cells into it. For the sake of this thread let’s say it needs 20 cells. Yes, this is a lot of cells, but you have 8 people and this is a Trial. Of course this means upping the spawn rate… by a lot. Being overrun by Grineer should be a real threat.

Now when you get the battery there isn’t a timer, all you have to do is hack the panels and drop it off.

 

Stage 2:

This is the worst designed part of the Trial. It forces you to be completely dependent on CC as the amount of knock downs the Grineer are capable of is too much to handle without hard CC.

When the symbol comes up for a pad you have to go up to it and hack it. Once the point is hacked the Grineer will try to shut it down by removing power. Thus you have to get some of those Power Cells to keep it running. If you hack the wrong point, you die. If the energy gets down to 0 a bolt of lightning will eliminate from that tower to the nearest player, killing them. This will be going on all 7 points at the same time until the eighth point is hacked.

The second part is a very simple change, in addition to draining power from your shields (keeping this part in place so there still is a “driver” for the payload) it drains power from, you guessed it, Power Cells. 

Of course both of these changes require a pretty massive boost to spawn rate, but isn’t that why we play this game? To kill stuff? The hard part about reworking this stuff is to make CC not the end-all-be-all. For example, with the first part of Stage 2, you can’t just have a normal interception point because then the CC meta would still live.

 

Stage 3:

There is a surprising lack of boss fight in this boss fight. Besides the change I am pretty sure you all see coming, adding a Tritium Stabilizer and having it be charged with Power Cells (much less than Stage 1, but maybe 8-ish Power Cells instead), there needs to be a rework of the boss part.

Rather than one big boss fight at the end, you would have to DPS him each time you blew up a power plant. While in the chicken suit (Terra Frame) he is still Invulnerable, but every time you blow up a power plant his chicken suit is destroyed and he goes into the annoying flying mode. At this point you have to deal enough damage until he calls down another Terra Frame and you continue the process until all power plants are destroyed and you can do the final fight the same as it is now.

 

 

So that’s it, a rework of the Law of Retribution to make it more about killing stuff and less about standing there.

[taiiat]

these sorts of things would certainly help a bit with Raids consisting of turning off Enemies and walking from A to B - but i know you know that doesn't solve the core problem of why that happens in the first place.

 

for the 'Boss Fight', it would make more sense if each tower thing had some relevance to the Terra Frame, so that destroying them actually makes sense as to having some connection to as to why he couldn't just get new Terra Frames ad infinitum anyways but magically runs out of them for no particular reason due to no actions of your own, just a coincidence.
that way Vay Hek swapping Terra Frames like you'd want would actually make some sense. (not that it really does now, though)

Edited October 17, 2016 by taiiat

[NativeKiller]

I would definitely play more of the trials if they were more about actually fighting than just spamming C.C and "solving" boring puzzles.

 

I came here to be a space ninja that kicks arse not to solve dumb puzzles.

 

No wonder only about 2% of the players actually play trials.

Edited October 17, 2016 by NativeKiller

[gluih]

1. Puzzles: I think there is more to puzzles than- it sucks after you solved it once. They still make a raid interesting, because you have to solve them while all the other stuff is going on.
One thing that's potentially nice about raid puzzles is that you don't need gear to solve them. I would argue that this isn't a large factor in warframe, because it is very easy to get very strong weapons. So where in another game you might pick up a player whos character doesn't have great gear, but he knows how to solve the puzzle, you might aswell pick another player who can spam an ability.
Obviously the ideas in the OP don't completely remove the puzzles. I just wanted to make this point, because I do think puzzles make the raids interesting and there is a good reason why we want to have them.

2. Warframe is very unbalanced: There are still a lot of spammable CC abilities in the game, so dealing with large numbers of enemies is never a big problem. The only way to deal with this problem are enemies that make these abilities less effective, by either being immune or by being a nullifier. A lot of players don't like nullifiers and there are some reasons to hate them. I think there should be more field bosses, that are harder to CC + some of the mass AoE abilities should probably be changed, so they don't just lock down everything.
Weapons also aren't balanced. If the challenge actually becomes killing a lot of enemies, a lot of weapons just won't be good enough.

I always thought that forming raid groups was about getting a small group to deal with the mechanics of the raid and then filling it with a bunch of DPS. The DPS part is missing in LoR, so making killing necessary would probably help to make it more fun.

[DrBorris]

 

1 minute ago, gluih said:

1. Puzzles: I think there is more to puzzles than- it sucks after you solved it once. They still make a raid interesting, because you have to solve them while all the other stuff is going on.
One thing that's potentially nice about raid puzzles is that you don't need gear to solve them. I would argue that this isn't a large factor in warframe, because it is very easy to get very strong weapons. So where in another game you might pick up a player whos character doesn't have great gear, but he knows how to solve the puzzle, you might aswell pick another player who can spam an ability.
Obviously the ideas in the OP don't completely remove the puzzles. I just wanted to make this point, because I do think puzzles make the raids interesting and there is a good reason why we want to have them.

2. Warframe is very unbalanced: There are still a lot of spammable CC abilities in the game, so dealing with large numbers of enemies is never a big problem. The only way to deal with this problem are enemies that make these abilities less effective, by either being immune or by being a nullifier. A lot of players don't like nullifiers and there are some reasons to hate them. I think there should be more field bosses, that are harder to CC + some of the mass AoE abilities should probably be changed, so they don't just lock down everything.
Weapons also aren't balanced. If the challenge actually becomes killing a lot of enemies, a lot of weapons just won't be good enough.

I always thought that forming raid groups was about getting a small group to deal with the mechanics of the raid and then filling it with a bunch of DPS. The DPS part is missing in LoR, so making killing necessary would probably help to make it more fun.

1. But being end-game content, trials should require you to have that equipment. I am not against puzzles either, sort of. As long as they don't get in the way of gameplay they are fine, and for the most part LoR and JV puzzles don't really get in the way.

2. By making it a requirement to kill enemies you are, in a sense, nerfing the effectiveness of CC as you need to do more than CC. Sure, it is going to still be a CC fest, but you have to actually go out and kill stuff to progress. Trying to make meaningful combat with Damage 2.0 is pretty much impossible, but it can be better than it is now.

That is really a biggy, there are quite a few DPS Warframes that have no role in the "end-game" because killing is not entirely necessary.

[gluih]

1 hour ago, DrBorris said:

2. By making it a requirement to kill enemies you are, in a sense, nerfing the effectiveness of CC as you need to do more than CC. Sure, it is going to still be a CC fest, but you have to actually go out and kill stuff to progress. Trying to make meaningful combat with Damage 2.0 is pretty much impossible, but it can be better than it is now.

I actually think damage 2.0 is pretty amazing. There are only some very small changes I would make to the system.
1. the amount of effective hp armored enemies get should probably be about the same what shielded enemies or enemies with pure hp get. So enemies would get a lot less armor in higher levels (reminds me that warframe armor doesn't scale with levels).
2. I don't exactly know how the different armor reducing effects stack with each other. There should be a way in game to find out how it works, so players can build effectively. They should also stack in a way that encourages using effects outside of corrosive projection and corrosive procs. Warframes abilities should be able to reduce armor to 0 when combined with other effects + the focus abilities should be meaningful.
The rest is really about knowing the numbers and balancing them. Some of the crit stats are way too high imo and slash damage is a lot better than any other damage type, because of the procs.

On the other side players need more time to react to what enemies are doing, at least to the large damage spikes. Most rockets are way too fast and turn way too quickly, instead of actively dodging them you either jump around all the time or you spam CC. The grineer snipers are quite nice at this point.

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

Most of the content of the game is already about killing hordes of enemies.
LOR seems different because you have to solve puzzles.

The thing is LOR is interesting already, it has an interesting reward and need to actually coordinate with each other. the thing is it is hard to find a good team speacially if you are used in public or solo playing.

I think the dev intended us to fight mobs while solving puzzle but it is just us who do the CC thinks to be able to finish it and because it is the fastest and effective way.
I doubt a lot of players will play it after the change because it is us who are also limiting this.

Here are some of what i saw in game chat
Hosting LOR need [specific frame]
Hosting LOR need MR[X]     < i was seriously?????
Hosting LOR must know what to do.

some people are picky also because it is the most efficient way to finish it.

but wild why not just make it accessible for new players too?
-- my answer "Void Fissures" what have we learned?

[VonDodo]

Lor is not bad.

Makes no sense changing something like lor when we need new trials.

We need a new trials with lot of Killing and no archwing :)

[UncaIroh]

I agree that LoR is fine (NM needs to fix its nullifier drones) as an intro raid. 

We need a new raid instead that will showcase all the new things (Parkour 2.0, etc) DE has introduced since JV.

[gluih]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)wildcats1369my said:

Most of the content of the game is already about killing hordes of enemies.
LOR seems different because you have to solve puzzles.

The thing is LOR is interesting already, it has an interesting reward and need to actually coordinate with each other. the thing is it is hard to find a good team speacially if you are used in public or solo playing.

I think the dev intended us to fight mobs while solving puzzle but it is just us who do the CC thinks to be able to finish it and because it is the fastest and effective way.
I doubt a lot of players will play it after the change because it is us who are also limiting this.

Here are some of what i saw in game chat
Hosting LOR need [specific frame]
Hosting LOR need MR[X]     < i was seriously?????
Hosting LOR must know what to do.

some people are picky also because it is the most efficient way to finish it.

but wild why not just make it accessible for new players too?
-- my answer "Void Fissures" what have we learned?

 

16 minutes ago, VonDodo said:

Lor is not bad.

Makes no sense changing something like lor when we need new trials.

We need a new trials with lot of Killing and no archwing :)

The point is that LoR is not at all about killing. It's about spamming CC so you don't actually have to do anything.
The established meta of CCing the whole map with a sepcific group of frames is too boring for me to bother joining a public group.
Without enemies moving around and interacting with players, every run is exactly the same. And then there is also a huge barrier for new players who are expected to know everything.

[(PSN)auwsomestgamer]

I think the idea is good and it is true that once you've run it a couple of times, it's not really a puzzle anymore. However, the ideas in OP about introducing power cells into everything doesn't really appeal to me. I liked it at the start (charging the battery), but after that it seemed like everything needed batteries. I think you turned LoR into excavation lol. I think it's good that you're trying to incorporate more killing into this (because at the moment the only enemies you are required to kill are the bomb carriers in the third part and Vey Hek himself), just not really going about it the right way.

[Voltage]

I enjoy playing raids, and I know many others that do too... 

I don't really want raids to change too much. They are fine as they are. The only reason they "suck" is because people can't find a dependent team that communicates. Sure, there is the raid schoolbus, but I am talking a premade group and using arcane helmets to take advantage of powers. (Aura and Storm) for example.

Edited October 17, 2016 by --Q--Voltage

[VonDodo]

2 hours ago, gluih said:

 

The point is that LoR is not at all about killing. It's about spamming CC so you don't actually have to do anything.
The established meta of CCing the whole map with a sepcific group of frames is too boring for me to bother joining a public group.
Without enemies moving around and interacting with players, every run is exactly the same. And then there is also a huge barrier for new players who are expected to know everything.

Nope... its actually one of the best thing for new players to learn the game and prepare for sorties.

Its easy, it requires teamwork and its boring only because we have only 3 trials.

2 are basically the same thing, the third have requisites to keep 90% players far from it.

 

 

As said they shouldn t waste effort on LoR and develop some new trials...lor is the best for newbies.

[DrBorris]

Guys... everyone defending trials needs to wake up. Trials are not okay, at least for the community at large. What was it, only .5% of time was spent playing trials? That is NOT good. The problem isn't enough raids, it is that people don't like doing them.

 

5 hours ago, (PS4)wildcats1369my said:

Most of the content of the game is already about killing hordes of enemies.
LOR seems different because you have to solve puzzles.

The thing is LOR is interesting already, it has an interesting reward and need to actually coordinate with each other. the thing is it is hard to find a good team speacially if you are used in public or solo playing.

I think the dev intended us to fight mobs while solving puzzle but it is just us who do the CC thinks to be able to finish it and because it is the fastest and effective way.
I doubt a lot of players will play it after the change because it is us who are also limiting this.

Here are some of what i saw in game chat
Hosting LOR need [specific frame]
Hosting LOR need MR[X]     < i was seriously?????
Hosting LOR must know what to do.

some people are picky also because it is the most efficient way to finish it.

but wild why not just make it accessible for new players too?
-- my answer "Void Fissures" what have we learned?

Yeah... and CoD is about an arcade shooter, Witcher is a open world action game, Civilization is a turned based strategy game... Warframe is a third person shooter.

So why was the shooting taken out of the most end-game mission we have?

 

Interesting rewards have nothing to do with the mission itself, and coordination is done in every game. I am here to play Warframe, not a puzzle game. I am not saying puzzles are bad, but trials should still retain the tropes of Warframe in addition to puzzles. Thus the OP, where the puzzles are left completely intact. The difference is that you need to actually kill stuff while completing the puzzles. DE messed up when they made killing optional, the OP makes killing necessary but still retains the puzzles.

 

Yes... we made it the meta, but since when has that stopped DE? They love stomping the meta. That is like DE giving us an OP frame and saying "Okay now, don't exploit this".

Have you played JV? Have you noticed that beyond a few base frames, the majority of the group can bring whatever the fudge they want? This is because JV is not a CC fest to the same degree that LoR is. In order to do LoR "efficiently" you need certain CC frames, if you make the CC less mandatory then making a group will be more relaxed. I personally haven't seen a MR requirement for a trial in awhile, can't say anything about PS4 though. And as for the third, welcome to any raid ever, this is nothing new. At least Warframe has some form of matchmaking in game (cough*Destiny*cough).

You know the issue is even worse when people try to get it over with as fast as possible, this is a game for Pete's sake not a chore.

 

Why would a new player want to do Trials besides the rewards? From my experience, what gets new players caught on the game is the killing. Why would they want to spend an hour doing a mission that doesn't involve killing?

 

3 hours ago, (PS4)auwsomestgamer said:

I think the idea is good and it is true that once you've run it a couple of times, it's not really a puzzle anymore. However, the ideas in OP about introducing power cells into everything doesn't really appeal to me. I liked it at the start (charging the battery), but after that it seemed like everything needed batteries. I think you turned LoR into excavation lol. I think it's good that you're trying to incorporate more killing into this (because at the moment the only enemies you are required to kill are the bomb carriers in the third part and Vey Hek himself), just not really going about it the right way.

This is a common trope of Raids, pick a mechanic and carry it through the entire Raid. Sure, it is repetitive to an extent, but it also helps guide you through the trial. And is it bad? Sure, you are seeing Power Cells a lot, but you are doing  lot of different things with them. You are only really ever defending a point in Stage 2 and even then it is very different from Excavation.

Think about it from a new player. They have played excavation and know what Power Cells are. Now when they see Power Cells everywhere they know that they probably need to charge stuff. If anything this makes it easier to understand for a new player because of familiarity.

 

2 hours ago, VonDodo said:

Nope... its actually one of the best thing for new players to learn the game and prepare for sorties.

Its easy, it requires teamwork and its boring only because we have only 3 trials.

2 are basically the same thing, the third have requisites to keep 90% players far from it.

 

 

As said they shouldn t waste effort on LoR and develop some new trials...lor is the best for newbies.

Except that you have to kill stuff in Sorties. Oh yeah, and Trials are not supposed to be a lead up to Sorties. Seriously? Trials are supposed to be the end-all end game mission, not "Baby's first CC". Do you think it was DE's intention to make trials a CC fest?

It is boring because the missions are boring...

 

If I were a newbie and I played LoR, why would I want to do it again besides rewards? I play this game to kill stuff not sit on a pad with my thumb up my...

I can promise that if DE kept creating trials in the vein of LoR the amount of people playing them would remain the same, if the new trials are better more people will play them but that is not because there are more trials, it is because the trial is... better.  

 

5 hours ago, TonyWong said:

I agree that LoR is fine (NM needs to fix its nullifier drones) as an intro raid. 

We need a new raid instead that will showcase all the new things (Parkour 2.0, etc) DE has introduced since JV.

Yeah, the intro to trials shouldn't require killing, that makes perfect sense.

 

[gluih]

4 hours ago, VonDodo said:

Nope... its actually one of the best thing for new players to learn the game and prepare for sorties.

Its easy, it requires teamwork and its boring only because we have only 3 trials.

2 are basically the same thing, the third have requisites to keep 90% players far from it.

 

 

As said they shouldn t waste effort on LoR and develop some new trials...lor is the best for newbies.

How is LoR supposed to be good for new players when basically every public group wants players that have done the raid already and don't want to/ can explain stuff at all?

And that's not even considering that spamming CC to lock down the entire map is making the whole game very boring, not only in LoR.
Let's take all the new players to the raid to show them how to best avoid actually playing the game...

[UncaIroh]

Newbies are too scared to fail or be shouted at. Worse, some expect to be carried and don't want to learn. I've had my share of both in pubs. Really, if newbies were serious about LoR, they can go "H> LoR to learn mechanics, don't expect to finish." Or you can sponsor some learning runs and sacrifice time for them.

Additionally, you CAN go the "kill everything" route with LoR. It's just more efficient to CC everything, and this applies in general and not just to raids. You're right that spamming CC is boring, but whose fault is that? If you want to stick to the idea that LoR is a CC fest then you've already put yourself in a box. Structuring the raids to force you to do it that way is not the answer. Heck, LoR normal even allows you to use ciphers.

The only real reason to CC in stage 1 is so that Trin can EV for the carrier. You know what? DE actually designed stage 1 with "pass the core" in mind too (hence the message that xxxx has dropped the core). Don't want to pick up the core? Use energy restores. So go ahead and kill everything. If the Trin gets mad, drop the energy restores for the carrier or be the second carry.

"But doing LoR without CC is hard(er)" - Well, why is it hard? Are you undergeared and can't kill the hordes fast enough? Did you not learn the mechanics? There are plenty of reasons the raid is difficult, but none of those reasons can't be overcome with effort, comprehension, some clever thinking, or overwhelming firepower.

You want enemies that drop the thing you need as part of the raid? Stage 3 and the entire JV raid indoor sections. (Yes, JV has this gear check for archwing, but you just gotta deal with it, yeah?)

With the exception of Exterminate and Defense, you CAN finish missions without a single kill. Treating WF as just a horde shooter is doing a great disservice to the game.

Also considering the limited resources DE has, I'd rather they make a new raid that does cater to the horde shooters. It'll be new content for everyone. Heck, the new raid can replace LoR as the "entry level" raid.

Edited October 18, 2016 by TonyWong

[BlackCoMerc]

The biggest problem with Raids: DE lacking a coherent vision for their game, and relying on customers to tell them what they want.

Customers don't know what they WANT. They only know what they've had before and enjoyed. So they ask for it. Whether it fits here too or not.

And it doesn't. At all. LoR is terrible. One of most boring, lackluster, repetitive experiences i have suffered through in gaming. Ever.

Scripted, puzzle focused Raids don't fit Warframe. We need an end game that belongs here, not something lifted from another genre of game in hopes it could be shoehorned in. And for that, DE needs to sit down, formulate a vision for their game and stop relying on the community to make it for them.

Don't trust your customers to tell you what they want. They dont know. Henry Ford understood that. It's why we got cars as opposed to faster horses.

[VonDodo]

17 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Except that you have to kill stuff in Sorties. Oh yeah, and Trials are not supposed to be a lead up to Sorties. Seriously? Trials are supposed to be the end-all end game mission, not "Baby's first CC". Do you think it was DE's intention to make trials a CC fest?

It is boring because the missions are boring...

 

 

Now prove your theory......where is it written that trials should be the end-all.

Its just an 8 player mission that requires a little teamplay (something that every other mission does not require).

And that for few credits and an arcane that 90% Worth nothing?

And its not only a CC fest.... reason why you take 1-2 cc at most out of 6 players....one of wich is soft CC

[DrBorris]

13 hours ago, VonDodo said:

Now prove your theory......where is it written that trials should be the end-all.

Its just an 8 player mission that requires a little teamplay (something that every other mission does not require).

And that for few credits and an arcane that 90% Worth nothing?

And its not only a CC fest.... reason why you take 1-2 cc at most out of 6 players....one of wich is soft CC

Wo wo wo, did you just really say trials are not meant to be end game? First off they are level 80+ enemies, they have extra hard challenges as compared to normal game modes, they have loot only viable for those in the end game, and DE created them to be something for end game players. I honestly don't think it is worth my time to find the Devstreams when they talked about trials.

 

And to those saying CC isn't necessary, you can't expect players to take the hard route when it gives equivalent rewards to the easy one. This is just the same as saying "If you think that weapon is OP, don't use it". No... that is not how making a videogame works (and I would argue CC is mandatory in LoR, especially for stage 2 due to one shots and knock downs). Is it that ridiculous to expect us to have to kill enemies? There is a reason DE has Life Support in Survival, it is not only there to annoy you.

[Cray]

You guys do realize nothing will happen, right?

 

Let me give you all some numbers I pulled (with help) off of christx. In a 39 day period (September plus a few days to either side), of all unique players seen in LoR (excluding LoRNM and JV):

• ~10% raided an average of 1 in 4 days or more. (The "active" Raider)
• ~3.5% raided an average of 1 in 2 days or more. (The "hardcore" Raider)
• ~42% made only 1 attempt. Of those, 1 in 3 failed their single attempt.

I'd love to go into more depth, but for that I would need charts, and I'm saving those for their own thread.

 

DE probably has better numbers than I do, because christx can be unreliable at times. And you can bet they looked at those numbers, and said "this isn't worth our resources, they're stretched as it is." And I gotta tell you, the actual, non-proportional numbers (which I am withholding) are depressing to look at, so it's no wonder the raids (especially JV) are full of bugs that are widely known throughout the raiding community, yet have been present for many months, sometimes since the raid in question was released. The Corpus raid being "on hold"? Call me cynical, but at this point it's all but cancelled.

Edited October 18, 2016 by DeltaPhantom

[BulletsforTeeth]

1 hour ago, DeltaPhantom said:

You guys do realize nothing will happen, right?

 

Let me give you all some numbers I pulled (with help) off of christx. In a 39 day period (September plus a few days to either side), of all unique players seen in LoR (excluding LoRNM and JV):

• ~10% raided an average of 1 in 4 days or more. (The "active" Raider)
• ~3.5% raided an average of 1 in 2 days or more. (The "hardcore" Raider)
• ~42% made only 1 attempt. Of those, 1 in 3 failed their single attempt.

I'd love to go into more depth, but for that I would need charts, and I'm saving those for their own thread.

 

DE probably has better numbers than I do, because christx can be unreliable at times. And you can bet they looked at those numbers, and said "this isn't worth our resources, they're stretched as it is." And I gotta tell you, the actual, non-proportional numbers (which I am withholding) are depressing to look at, so it's no wonder the raids (especially JV) are full of bugs that are widely known throughout the raiding community, yet have been present for many months, sometimes since the raid in question was released. The Corpus raid being "on hold"? Call me cynical, but at this point it's all but cancelled.

Indeed. The raids are just too much of a flop at this point for DE to take a long look at improving them. Yet, archwing, which is nigh universally disliked or hated, gets a rework, making it even worse. But the raids, which are underplayed, but not nearly as disliked, have gotten next to nothing, aside from the occasional (minor) bugfix. They could be a fantastic game mode, if DE would simply put even half the effort into them that they put into the larger quests.

[DrBorris]

4 hours ago, DeltaPhantom said:

You guys do realize nothing will happen, right?

 

Let me give you all some numbers I pulled (with help) off of christx. In a 39 day period (September plus a few days to either side), of all unique players seen in LoR (excluding LoRNM and JV):

• ~10% raided an average of 1 in 4 days or more. (The "active" Raider)
• ~3.5% raided an average of 1 in 2 days or more. (The "hardcore" Raider)
• ~42% made only 1 attempt. Of those, 1 in 3 failed their single attempt.

I'd love to go into more depth, but for that I would need charts, and I'm saving those for their own thread.

 

DE probably has better numbers than I do, because christx can be unreliable at times. And you can bet they looked at those numbers, and said "this isn't worth our resources, they're stretched as it is." And I gotta tell you, the actual, non-proportional numbers (which I am withholding) are depressing to look at, so it's no wonder the raids (especially JV) are full of bugs that are widely known throughout the raiding community, yet have been present for many months, sometimes since the raid in question was released. The Corpus raid being "on hold"? Call me cynical, but at this point it's all but cancelled.

That is the point of this thread... I don't know this for certain of course, but I feel as if there is interest in in the community for "Raids" (with the simple definition of a high level objective based scripted mission). The problem is that DE's take on raids sucks.

 

So, rather than throw all of the effort put into trials down the drain, why not try to tweak them to appeal to why most people play Warframe? I would never expect a new trial unless the old ones started getting played more, but that does not mean they should completely give up on the concept. Just look at Archwing, no one plays it so DE tries to make it more enticing (and arguably does the opposite in this last case, but let's not go there).

[VonDodo]

11 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Wo wo wo, did you just really say trials are not meant to be end game? First off they are level 80+ enemies, they have extra hard challenges as compared to normal game modes, they have loot only viable for those in the end game, and DE created them to be something for end game players. I honestly don't think it is worth my time to find the Devstreams when they talked about trials.

 

And to those saying CC isn't necessary, you can't expect players to take the hard route when it gives equivalent rewards to the easy one. This is just the same as saying "If you think that weapon is OP, don't use it". No... that is not how making a videogame works (and I would argue CC is mandatory in LoR, especially for stage 2 due to one shots and knock downs). Is it that ridiculous to expect us to have to kill enemies? There is a reason DE has Life Support in Survival, it is not only there to annoy you.

1) As i said having 1-2 cc doesn t mean it being only CC. You can win it without CC, Its far more difficult to win it without Energy restores/EV.

2) There is more hacking and puzzles than PC.

3) wich rewards? you get better rewards in almost any other content. You play fissures to get rewards not sorties for sure. Infact they did a nice job giving a reward that is nowhere mandatory nor makes any difference (Fact: most trial players don t use arcanes at all)

4) you can keep onehsots at bay in 3 ways. A: being fast, B shooting at them C: stealth/rhino skin/trinity#3 and many Others D: melee blocking (with few exceptions) Things you hjave to be ready to do since you can t rely on 2 CC one of wich is soft cc.

5) "is just the same as saying "If you think that weapon is OP, don't use it". ": With this sentence i think you lack the qualification to tell Others how VG works....an OP weapon ruins the game for other players in the instance (and no player should be forced to leave an istance because just ONE has a simulor/boltace). trials are nowhere mandatory for anything....if you want arcanes the most unefficient way to get them are trials. Selling prime stuff and buying them is WAY more time efficient. (but really a lot ......something like 10 to 1 minimum). But as i said already its the best tool for clan and newbies to get together and learn game basics (see how Killing everything is not Always the only way to do stuff).

6) you can find lvl 80 enemies in most parts of the game... in some you get level 100 with players handicaps... that IS endgame. A Group of badly equipped newbies can easily complete a lor if they watch a video. And the best part is they can do it however they want. A mesa could easily keep enemies at bay with her 4 Killing everything for example. People are sared of Killing stuff only when people is unable to stay on the buttons. Something experienced players can do easily.

 

[(PSN)VariantX7]

Honestly, I said I wanted puzzles in warframe back when they were talking about raids and put out a survey, but I didn't add any nuance into what kind of puzzles I wanted in Warframe. I absolutely did not want "stand still on pad" puzzles. This is a hyper-kinetic action game that is at its best when you're flying around and cutting through the ranks of the enemy.

Standing still in Warframe = Death in Warframe.

Standing still in Warframe = Also boring in Warframe. 

I meant for the trials combat oriented puzzles like the Juggernaut in the halloween event where you had no weapons, but you had to play matador and make the Jugg run into these things to damage itself. Even if there were non-combat puzzles, I was expecting the GOOD puzzles like the ones in the Lua spy missions that have more thought put into them than a picture matching game. Those feel like a true descent into the unknown and unusual due to its time warping mechanic. I also expected longer form dungeon like missions instead of 3-4 large rooms where we carry out menial tasks while high-level mobs annoy us so we shut the room down with CC just so we get through it at all. I was expecting enemies unique to the raids themselves with all new mechanics instead of just only souped up mobs. The trial feels like a job instead of an epic journey into the depths of an enemy stronghold because of the approach DE took with it. Adjusting this, here and there won't make me like doing it because its design on a fundamental level is something I personally find boring and tedious.

Edited October 27, 2016 by (PS4)VariantX7

[Epicagemo]

Puzzles should maybe be included only as a pre req for the raid, and only needs to be completed once or twice. That's how other MMOs I know do their raids.