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Angry about the Index Event


Doc-Orange
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First when I read the event description I thought this is going to be a PvP event and wasn't happy. (I liked PvP 2.0 in the beginning (it was fun with lex, slide attack movement and balanced frames) but then it turned into a piece of crap.)

But then I saw it and it was kinda... "weird" match with bots with all imbalanced PvE stuff and bot lvling...  First stages are extremely easy, and you can run around killing everything and gathering all the green stuff... But many players have very little chance of gathering enough green stuff just because someone else is gathering it faster. And there is no point in helping others to gather green stuff if they're slow, because that would just make the game very slow and won't give you ANYTHING at all.

And then there is "endurance" stage... That realy makes me mad. You can't use powers at all and debuffs are usualy very strong and turn you into very thin paper with a gun. Just about ANY damage kills you. And even if you always rapidly move always changing direction of movement - it doesn't help you. Because there is a lot of AoE stuff and perfect auto-aim on some things. You have about no chance of surviving after gothering 10 green things and it absolutely doesn't matter what frame you use, because you can't use any abilities and you have like no hp at all and 200+ lvl enemies who does tons of damage(I think they can one-hit kill most frames even with maxed vitality+redirection and without any debuffs, but with debuffs they can do that to ALL frames and no matter what mods you have).

Plus there are some things that appear from nowhere and just kill you... You like bulletjumping around the area, when there are no enemies in sight and you hear some explosion and you're dead. Or optiocor guys. Aiming in your teammate charging opticor and then rapidly changing target just before shooting and boom you're dead. And they like have about perfect aim and reaction. That completely sucks. And if bot gathers your points it most likely would instantly run to spawn and trade them all.

Winning conditions and stuff are realy unclear. What is the teams points limit on the last stage? What's with the timer? Why there is no clear explanation about 60 team points for the first stages? And comparing 75k reward for winning 3rd stage to 35k on 2nd stage - it's very unfair. 2nd stage is easy, just like the 1st stage, and games are fast. But 3rd stage takes a LOT more time, requires a way better weapons, more 'skill' and gives only x2 credits?!

I'd say that if we take 1st stage difficulty is 1, then 2nd stage difficulty would be maybe 1.2-1.5 and 3rd stage would be 10-20.

WHAT THE F*** IS WRONG WITH THIS EVENT?!

This is realy the worst thing that I saw in warframe.

 

...Oh... And I forgot to say that highlevel stuff has SO MUCH hp that guns doesn't do much damage to it at all. The last time I noticed - opticor direct shot did like 33k shield damage to thing and that was only few percent of total shield, maybe 5%. And 5k/2.5k hp of Inaros (maximum vitality, vigor, armored agility, steel fiber, health conversion) is nothing for highlvl mobs.

 

And I realy wonder now, does DE have ANY testers at all? Do they test things at all?

Edited by RadYogh
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1 hour ago, Doc-Orange said:

Is this true? You cannot use the powers???

Warframe is about powers. When I want to play a space shooter I play Destiny which is much better in this.

Well... Technically you can, but with that much energy drain and reduced energy - you have no chance of using it if you have some green stuff on you....

Edited by RadYogh
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So this is again a try to make this game more difficult by reducing the unique selling point of Warframe instead of correcting the balance and game desingn issues.

DE tries it so many times in the last month with nerfs, buffs of unfun enemies (Nullifiers...) and the result is a massive lost of players.

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16 hours ago, infamouscycle said:

My idea would be to have the point automatically gifted to the person who gets the kill, and only have points be dropped upon death. Kill stealing might still be a problem though.

Give any "stolen" orb directly to Corpus and let us see who has stolen most orbs in the end of game screen.

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4 hours ago, RadYogh said:

First when I read the event description I thought this is going to be a PvP event and wasn't happy. (I liked PvP 2.0 in the beginning (it was fun with lex, slide attack movement and balanced frames) but then it turned into a piece of crap.)

But then I saw it and it was kinda... "weird" match with bots with all imbalanced PvE stuff and bot lvling...  First stages are extremely easy, and you can run around killing everything and gathering all the green stuff... But many players have very little chance of gathering enough green stuff just because someone else is gathering it faster. And there is no point in helping others to gather green stuff if they're slow, because that would just make the game very slow and won't give you ANYTHING at all.

And then there is "endurance" stage... That realy makes me mad. You can't use powers at all and debuffs are usualy very strong and turn you into very thin paper with a gun. Just about ANY damage kills you. And even if you always rapidly move always changing direction of movement - it doesn't help you. Because there is a lot of AoE stuff and perfect auto-aim on some things. You have about no chance of surviving after gothering 10 green things and it absolutely doesn't matter what frame you use, because you can't use any abilities and you have like no hp at all and 200+ lvl enemies who does tons of damage(I think they can one-hit kill most frames even with maxed vitality+redirection and without any debuffs, but with debuffs they can do that to ALL frames and no matter what mods you have).

Plus there are some things that appear from nowhere and just kill you... You like bulletjumping around the area, when there are no enemies in sight and you hear some explosion and you're dead. Or optiocor guys. Aiming in your teammate charging opticor and then rapidly changing target just before shooting and boom you're dead. And they like have about perfect aim and reaction. That completely sucks. And if bot gathers your points it most likely would instantly run to spawn and trade them all.

Winning conditions and stuff are realy unclear. What is the teams points limit on the last stage? What's with the timer? Why there is no clear explanation about 60 team points for the first stages? And comparing 75k reward for winning 3rd stage to 35k on 2nd stage - it's very unfair. 2nd stage is easy, just like the 1st stage, and games are fast. But 3rd stage takes a LOT more time, requires a way better weapons, more 'skill' and gives only x2 credits?!

I'd say that if we take 1st stage difficulty is 1, then 2nd stage difficulty would be maybe 1.2-1.5 and 3rd stage would be 10-20.

WHAT THE F*** IS WRONG WITH THIS EVENT?!

This is realy the worst thing that I saw in warframe.

 

...Oh... And I forgot to say that highlevel stuff has SO MUCH hp that guns doesn't do much damage to it at all. The last time I noticed - opticor direct shot did like 33k shield damage to thing and that was only few percent of total shield, maybe 5%. And 5k/2.5k hp of Inaros (maximum vitality, vigor, armored agility, steel fiber, health conversion) is nothing for highlvl mobs.

 

And I realy wonder now, does DE have ANY testers at all? Do they test things at all?

Pretty much this!

This "pre-event" is really the worst thing ever!

What will be next? 1 HP, 0 energy and melee only? How creative and unique DE!

Since Void 2.0 everything has gotten pretty #*($%%@ up 'round here.

My region chat and recru channel used to be full but after the introduction of the relic system all is empty.
That's a quite clear feedback IMHO!

I guess it's time to waste my time on another game.

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On 10/21/2016 at 9:25 PM, Iceheart125 said:

Fyi: I believe the new hot fix made it 2, 5, and 10 points, instead of 5, 10, and 20. Max score is 60 not 50 now, as well.

I was wondering why my scoring of 50 didnl;t win me the game.

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I'd agree with most of the complaints here. 

I pugged the first stage and part of the 2nd stage and had no real issues (Post Hotfix) with getting what I needed.  But that said the inequality that is present isn't just a cop to competition.  Its down right broken.  And its so obvious to defy belief that you guys couldn't see this coming a mile away, I thought you guys were supposed to have a few years at least worth of "Cooperative Game development experience" under your belt?  

"Friendly Competition" stops when you kill 1 digit worth of enemies and yet turn in 4x or more worth of points ganked from others.  And I agree with what others have said about "Co-Op" vs "SORO ONRY".  If I wanted to play Solo, I wouldn't play WF, or any MMO at all.....  Punishment for failure in skill (Loss of points on Death) is a fine metaphor to the story of the Corpus.  But imagine a story where the arch villain you just spent an hour rooting for is just about to obtain the super weapon, just to have some random front line grunt steal it out from under his outstretched hand and the villain you were just rooting for is now a useless side character not only marginalized, but impotent to change anything.....  Except now You're that character and you get to sit through yet another match and hope for not more of the same.....

This all beggers the question of why have the points in the first place at all?  Or at least if you have to have them, only make them available from killed Allies?  Or something like that?  I agree, this feels like really poor game design on your guy's part.  Like you asked a middle school Wrestling Champ how he would design a 4 person Team Co-op event, and he delivered this after staying up till midnight the night before giggling maniacally about how he can put all his friends in locks and holds when the ref turns his head or something.......

As for "Playing with friends only", thats nice, but if you have to play with friends only just to ensure no point ganking, why don't we just make it a rule anyway?  If the event is SO Broken that you can't guarantee that playing with PuGs won't break your experience of it over what basically amounts to a respect issue, How is this not Broken and deserving of a Fix?  As I said, theres a difference between "Friendly competition" and Flat out frustration ganking/griefing.....

And not for nothing DE, but Honestly, I have never seen a company so militantly Nerf its own product short of some kind of governmental safety oversight commitee's interference.  I feel like you guys just keep slashing WF's wrists every time I turn around.  Almost everything I liked about it you guys have managed to nerf either into, or very close to, oblivion....  Your new "Improvements" that do nothing but lower charachter numbers while subjecting us to the same or higher enemy numbers, reeks of nothing but some sad attempt at ratcheting up the frustration factor yet further to encourage Platinum Purchasing.....  Or worse yet, to protect yourselves from having to you know, design good additions to the awesome game you already had....... And I will take every opportunity to point this out......  I hope more people post Steam Player Count Numbers at you so you can watch as your Platinum Purchasing Base keeps dieing off......  I keep coming back like Charlie Brown to your Lucy hoping for better, but at every galldurn turn, just more of the same.  I won't do this forever.....

-Kalt

Edited by Kaltriya
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On 10/22/2016 at 7:35 AM, Tricky5hift said:

Real talk now, has it ever occurred to you guys that this is intended?

If it is intended I take back my criticism and just say they should drop it in Conclave with the rest of the PvP modes. Pvp has no place on the starmap and that's why it's getting all of this negative criticism. We're going into it with a pve expectation and finding the pvp we avoid and leave to gather dust in the conclave.

Edited by blackheartstar_pc
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Addendum to my previous post:

Having reached Tier 3 Last night with a couple friends, I think I can more easily see what DE intended with this event.  I don't think they intended for everyone to make Points Cap every, or even any, matches.  They meant for those that take the most risks in the most intelligent (Or lucky) ways to be the ones to get the rewards.  In T3, almost nobody makes Points for the High Risk investments.....  Its quite simply not really possible without a dedicated group thats decked in the absolutely best gear in the game.  The mobs scale too fast.  Games rarely last more then about 600-700 seconds, my personal best with my friends was about 850 Seconds.  ANd by then then mobs were lvl 250+.  Going with friends and co-oping was honestly rather fun I must admit.  But the only way any of us made our points was to make the Low end Bet for the 25 Point Req.  Forget 50 or 100.  I think the highest any of us scored point wise over about half a dozen games was about 45.  The only way anyone is making those kinds of points IMHO is if the rest of the group basically gives them all the points early on.  Which I flat out know will not happen in a PuG.  In the end I think T3 lives up to its intentions better.  But I feel like the high ends of it (The HIgher Investments) are just straight up superfluous for being out of most player's reach....

Having seen T3 now, I think I can see what the intent with T1/2 was better.  One of the big differences though between T3 and the lower tiers is that the Points in T3 Aren't Capped.  The game doesn't end just because your team turns in 50 or 60 Points.  You get more time every time your team turns in points to turn in more points.  I think if you left the level scaling in T1/2 the way it is and removed the point cap in favor of a Timed system like whats in T3, that would be *one possible* solution, except that it would still need tuning because you're still going to have people ganking all the points they can.....  Maybe make T1 = Points are automatically assigned to players when they kill an enemy?  That way they can use T1 for the training/safe Mode to learn about I think its meant as?  Then in T2 have the baby gloves come off?

Conclusion:

I like T3, I wish it was a bit more attainable to get High Risk investment returns, but aside from that the rest of the mechanics are sensical and can be fun with the right group.  PuGs will definitely need some attention.

T1/2 Needs more balancing IMHO.  Its too easy to be a casual player and get your progress continually Ganked with absolutely no Power over it yourself.  Which is just going to continue to pointlessly frustrate people that are just starting out for really no Reason.

-Kalt

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I'm not going to give the event more attention than needed to "complete" it. It turned from a bit of fun to a completely miserable experience the moment I went to solo the endurance run.

First and foremost, you've introduced a major slice of new content without adequate narrative. Collect points, deposit points, and don't die. That was the extent of the introduction. What about the timer? What about the personal goal and bets? Why not show losses?

All the normal rules are out the window. Weapons don't work like normal, because of massive debuffs. Powers are shot, because energy is very hard to come by. Enemies are tougher than they should be. I see enemies that are supposedly level 50 work more like level 150.

In solo play, it seems the player movement is frequently crippled while the specters get around just fine. They are very good at stealing player points. The player's poor movement really helps them do this.

I understand public play is worse, because the game becomes PvP, where point stealing becomes the goal.

I don't know what magic combination of frame and weapon makes the event as "easy" as some clowns claim in their YouTube videos, and I'm not going to bother trying to find out. This game play is completely unfamiliar. The endurance portion feels arbitrary at best. I almost think the endurance portion was designed to strip away credits earned in the earlier part of the event. Worse still, I feel like I'm playing against aimbots, and I hate when designers resort to aimbots to increase difficulty.

Add to this the incremental personal goals leveraged against newly-patched in unrealistic time limits (and aimbots), and the "endurance test" is more a measure of how quickly your common sense can overtake the realization that you are merely intended to lose Credits and confidence.

I enjoyed Rathuum and continue playing those missions when I can. Rathuum exhibits the same aimbot behavior at high levels, but the weapons seem to work as normal and the player can move about freely. On the other hand, I will never play these new Corpus missions again—not unless they receive a major overhaul and the PvP elements are removed.

If you don't want to remove the PvP elements, then please consign the new game content to the Conclave portion of the game.

Edited by DEATHLOK
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2 hours ago, Gildarts_bb said:

Has everyone forgot that this is basically a test run for the this new event, which why there is no leader board etc. Give proper construtive feed back in the proper thread and let them work on it. 

1) First of all - where does it say it's a "test event"? (I could only find in the "news" on liset that it is called "index preview", that doesn't mean "test event" and that doesn't explain anything actualy. In communication/inbox and on the starchart it's called "Index" and there are ABSOLUTELY NO words about test or preview or anything similar.)

2) Why it's such a money/time/other stuff waste for players with no good rewards?

3) It is a way too bad even for "test event". It has MANY OBVIOUS problems.

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3 hours ago, RadYogh said:

1) First of all - where does it say it's a "test event"? (I could only find in the "news" on liset that it is called "index preview", that doesn't mean "test event" and that doesn't explain anything actualy. In communication/inbox and on the starchart it's called "Index" and there are ABSOLUTELY NO words about test or preview or anything similar.)

2) Why it's such a money/time/other stuff waste for players with no good rewards?

3) It is a way too bad even for "test event". It has MANY OBVIOUS problems.

 

1) In plain sight in the Update sub-forums, where stuff like this is ALWAYS posted. (It was also mentioned on Prime Time #139). And also on the main website. Even their Twitter directs there.

Quote

Note that this is a Preview of The Index. Greater rewards, Clan Trophies and Leaderboards will come later when the full variant of The Index goes live. We welcome your constructive feedback so we can prepare a proper Operation on a polished version- enjoy!

 

2) It's optional. You don't like it, you don't have to do it. My stuff is properly modded and forma'd to perfection. These new mods fit in just nicely on these underused weapons.

3) Now you're just throwing a tantrum instead of giving mature constructive feedback. Who ever heard of a test run without any problems?

Edited by MystMan
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I have pretty much the same complaints as others and that's why I solo as someone suggested. I am just glad that I did a 50 points solo before they patch it. The most recent patch basically limit the game time to under 5 minutes and that will limit the Zenurik activation. Also it becomes impossible to get to 50 points within 5 mins. Believe it or not I would enjoy another round of endurance doing solo but the latest patch pretty much broke it.

Anyway I still don't know why DE insist on these unpopular game modes. Better spend  more time on fashion frame and quest. That should sell, and definitely not these pointless pvp, soccer, and flight simulator.

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3 hours ago, MystMan said:

 

1) In plain sight in the Update sub-forums, where stuff like this is ALWAYS posted. (It was also mentioned on Prime Time #139). And also on the main website. Even their Twitter directs there.

 

2) It's optional. You don't like it, you don't have to do it. My stuff is properly modded and forma'd to perfection. These new mods fit in just nicely on these underused weapons.

3) Now you're just throwing a tantrum instead of giving mature constructive feedback. Who ever heard of a test run without any problems?

yep that pretty much sums it up nicely

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Hello folks,

I just wanted to let you know that we are reading your feedback, and we will be looking into addressing all the concerns that players have brought up about the event. Too give a little context on the design decisions that were made, we were going for a "Wolf of Wall Street" concept with regards to the Personal Points. The current implementation is a social experiment to see how the community reacts to what I'd call "Soft PvP". You're not actively trying to kill each other, but there's still cut-throat, self-serving tactics to be had, which fits in with the corporate brokerage theme of The Index.

We will definitely be changing this to be more team-oriented, and ensure it won't punish players who worked hard to earn their Index Points. It was released in its current state so we could collect metrics from a player base larger than our Testing Teams, and to gather feedback from more people. I'd like to thank everyone in this thread who has taken the time to pass on their thoughts, concerns and opinions. I'm reading through as many Index-related threads as I can today to compile a list of actionable items to review and address for the official release.

Cheers,
Draice.

Edited by [DE]Draice
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I've felt that current style of the Index, and how grabbing points works, it is a bit counter-to-design of normally cooperative way of the game - and I prefered to run the Index solo for this very reason. There was this anti-team feel in the Rathuum as well, when the pickups like energy orbs & health orbs would be taken by a teammate and then you'd have to wait for them to respawn; which if you played in public games, yeah, bad - and the Index takes this anti-team feel a bit further, with the teammates being able to hinder each other's progress or downright grief. Sure - in a PvP mode, that's okay'ish. In a co-op mode... I think it diminishes the otherwise fun-mode unnecessarily, and it would be more enjoyable if it promoted teamwork more, rather than make it, as [DE]Draice said, 'soft PvP'. If I wanted to play PvP, I would play it. Alas, I don't, and I'd like to be able to help my teammates, without losing on the event if I decide to do so.

Just my few :platinum: 

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16 hours ago, MystMan said:

1) In plain sight in the Update sub-forums, where stuff like this is ALWAYS posted. (It was also mentioned on Prime Time #139). And also on the main website. Even their Twitter directs there.

2) It's optional. You don't like it, you don't have to do it. My stuff is properly modded and forma'd to perfection. These new mods fit in just nicely on these underused weapons.

3) Now you're just throwing a tantrum instead of giving mature constructive feedback. Who ever heard of a test run without any problems?

1) It isn't a good way to let ppl know this is a test event. At least half players doesn't carefuly read the updates section, and I won't be surprised if only like 10-20% of sonewhat active players are reading that stuff.

And also - all information must be in the game. Ppl usualy launch game to play it, not to click on the link and go to forums to read through update info and other stuff (mostly not important for them) just to MAYBE find something realy important.

2) Everything in the life is kinda optional. You even can kill yourself at any moment if you realy want to (usualy). But let's go back to our 'preview event' - as it usualy happens with stuff in warframe - missing something even boring and even if you don't have much time irl potentialy leads to loss of some unique stuff (thought it may be absolutely useless... and it may turn later in some imba-musthave-thing).

When you have to do that you realy don't want to do to get something that you want - it's not cool. I don't like this IRL and I don't think it's right, and it shouldn't be in virtual interactive worlds. (There may be some exceptions, thoght, but realy EXCEPTIONS not a common thing.)

3) There already have been many problems that could be easily avoided if DE had any testers / public test server (that would give you some kind of reward on the real server for doing something that helps in testing). And there are many OBVIOUS problems that could have been avoided even without testing, by a person who knows a bit about the game and players.

I have already seen many projects where developers didn't realy know how players see their game, how they play it, how they feel it, and they didn't realy know how game works(i mean the big picture, not the part on which some particular developer was working)... And many times they didn't even understand why players play/like their game, that players see it different from developers. It's not completely the same for warframe developers, they're very careful in some things and they try to listen when many players are unhappy about some particular thing, they realy solve some problems(though sometimes it takes few attempts and a lot of time, but anyway). It's not a secret that DE doesn't like many things about warframe that players like and that DE have been speaking a lot about changing those things(and sometimes it's realy a problem - not just what DE doesn't like), but usualy DE was just talking about it and carefuly trying to find a solution that would be OK for both DE and players... But... in the last year or maybe more I notice "bad" changes in warframe and DE's actions, and they doesn't act carefuly like before.

There are already many angry players, and things like this event make them even agner, and make more players angry and that turins into a lot of negative about warframe that in it's turn makes more people unhappy... And saying "it's not a constructive feedback" or "it's just a preview" and other stuff like this won't help at all, and most likely would just make the situation worse.

*sigh*

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1 hour ago, [DE]Draice said:

[..] our Testing Teams [..]

DE realy have testers? And it's not even 3 random guys, it's even "testing teams"? (It's not a sarcasm... well... not completely... I always thought DE had like almost no testers...)

...PLEASE be careful 'testing' something on a public server, because things can easily become 'the last straw'.

Edited by RadYogh
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4 hours ago, [DE]Draice said:

Hello folks,

I just wanted to let you know that we are reading your feedback, and we will be looking into addressing all the concerns that players have brought up about the event. Too give a little context on the design decisions that were made, we were going for a "Wolf of Wall Street" concept with regards to the Personal Points. The current implementation is a social experiment to see how the community reacts to what I'd call "Soft PvP". You're not actively trying to kill each other, but there's still cut-throat, self-serving tactics to be had, which fits in with the corporate brokerage theme of The Index.

We will definitely be changing this to be more team-oriented, and ensure it won't punish players who worked hard to earn their Index Points. It was released in its current state so we could collect metrics from a player base larger than our Testing Teams, and to gather feedback from more people. I'd like to thank everyone in this thread who has taken the time to pass on their thoughts, concerns and opinions. I'm reading through as many Index-related threads as I can today to compile a list of actionable items to review and address for the official release.

Cheers,
Draice.

I personally think the soft-PVP aspect of it should be kept. However there should be a grace period on dropped points, so that a player has a few seconds to pick up their point before it becomes possible for someone else. There should also be a power nullifying effect on players carrying an absurd amount of Index Points to prevent point hogging.

It's still a team-oriented mode since you definitely don't want AnyoCorp to outscore your team, which results in a credit loss. The only competitive part is in collecting enough points to activate your credit bonus. Some players do not continue to collect points when they get enough and focus on making kills for their teammates to get points instead(it's what i do).

Edited by EmptyDevil
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