Theoretically, why are there no "heavy set" warframes yet?

[Inarticulate]

16 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Still understand what are the point of this.

They are in a war about to lose, why would they make a non-functioning machine?

You have to explain that to me first. What would drive them to make something that doesnt work?

On the exact flip side, why would you purposely make a design that is harder to make work work instead of using a design that is easier to make work?

I'm not saying that it's physically impossible to make a fat Warframe work. I'm saying that in order to make a fat Warframe work, you have to go through too many hoops to make it not have the problems inherent with having massive bulk.

15 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Show me using in-game lore where does it state that because it looks like a human that means the warframe mimics human biology.

Physical appearance, not biology. The point is that all Warframe to date have bulk in the exact places you would expect a human of the same build to have bulk. A fat Warframe would be no exception.

Furthermore, you are completely ignoring the general reasoning, completely separate from anything regarding the human body, why you simply can't make joints thicker to hold more weight: the geometry would restrict the joint's range of motion.

15 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

OMG, really? So you can use this but i cant with fat frames?

All of a sudden, yes, what they look like doesnt matter cause, remember, they are not actually humans.

Come ooooooon.

 

You know what's relevant info? emaciated humans are not going to be running around with all sorts of equipment.

Nek and Inaros should only be able to carry small amount of ammo and small guns and daggers.

But lets remember! They are not humans so it doesnt matter! Unless you are a fatframe.

You are perfectly allowed to use the argument that Warframes are bio-mechanical golems. I have pointed out specific reasons why being a bio-mechanical golem exempts Warframes from certain limitations that apply to humans and restricts Warframes with certain limitations that don't apply to humans. I'm making logical conclusions based on what we know about the composition of our Warframe golems, not just using that fact as a Deus ex Machina to conveniently whisk away problems.

The point is that the small size of Nekros and Nezha does not have the same limitations as a human with the same physique due to the fact that Warframes are made of tougher and heavier material than human bone and flesh.

On the other hand, a fat Warframe would have the same limitations as humans in terms of reduced range of motion while having the additional limitation that their greater weight would increase the stress on their lower joints.

15 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

What limit? Where did you get this?

Can you think of any device that won't overheat or fail in some other way when you try to send too much energy through it? Even in high fantasy, you can't just send infinite magic through your magic casting device and expect it to not fail catastrophically.

As such, I maintain that there is a limit to the amount of Void energy that can be channeled through a Warframe.

[Mak_Gohae]

1 hour ago, Roachester said:

Obviously not, or else I wouldn't have brought it up in the first place.

The issue with a fat frame in particular is the extent of the changes they would have to make to compensate for its generous build, especially when you consider the fact that Warframes can also share animation sets. Despite how different each of these frames look, they all share very similar base models, and while some have significantly more or less bulk than others (see: Rhino, Hydroid, Oberon, Vauban, Inaros), none of them deviated so far from the norm that they had to undergo any noticeable changes to the way they stand, move around, attack, etc. It's because of this that we were allowed the ability to give one frame an animation set from a completely different frame with few to no issues whatsoever.

Now add a Warframe that actually does require these sorts of drastic changes. What do you think happens, then? Again, I don't have a problem with them adding a fat frame to the game (so long as its overall theme is based on the fact that its fat, and not just making fat because reasons), but in the end it's just extra effort for something that won't make much of a difference in either the short or long term.

pretty sure fat folks stand, move, and attack the same way as other people.

There's nothing that would require completely new coding for a fat frame. BTW, DE during Tennocon said that a centaur frame is not out of the question. So i dont see why would DE not try a fat frame but a completely fictional creature are ok.

[Inarticulate]

9 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

pretty sure fat folks stand, move, and attack the same way as other people.

They don't. Ask any learned artist or animator.

[Roachester]

2 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

pretty sure fat folks stand, move, and attack the same way as other people.

There's nothing that would require completely new coding for a fat frame. BTW, DE during Tennocon said that a centaur frame is not out of the question. So i dont see why would DE not try a fat frame but a completely fictional creature are ok.

There's a difference between being capable of doing something and doing it the exact same way as someone else. A fat person might be able to breakdance, but it would look a hell of a lot different than a skinny person doing it. Why? Because there's more mass (and possibly weight, depending on what you're doing) to account for, and as such the action would require different positioning and/or movement in order to pull it off properly.

Also, this has very little to do with coding. It has everything to do with animating. 

And unless they showed off what that centaur frame might look like, that has nothing to do with this. For all we care, it could just look like an average Warframe with centaur-themed abilities.

[Mak_Gohae]

 

10 minutes ago, Roachester said:

There's a difference between being capable of doing something and doing it the exact same way as someone else. A fat person might be able to breakdance, but it would look a hell of a lot different than a skinny person doing it. Why? Because there's more mass (and possibly weight, depending on what you're doing) to account for, and as such the action would require different positioning and/or movement in order to pull it off properly.
 

You know we are talking about video game, right? None of this has to be applied to space bio-armor.

Go look at Guyver.

Quote

Also, this has very little to do with coding. It has everything to do with animating. 

Go ahead and enlighten us on how difficult is it to animate a bulkier frame.

Quote

And unless they showed off what that centaur frame might look like, that has nothing to do with this. For all we care, it could just look like an average Warframe with centaur-themed abilities.

DE said that a centaur frame has nothing to do with a discussion on what shapes are possible in frames because of what, exactly?

[Roachester]

2 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

You know we are talking about video game, right? None of this has to be applied to space bio-armor.

Except it does, unless you want this thing to look like a poorly animated nightmare.

4 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Go ahead and enlighten us on how difficult is it to animate a bulkier frame.

I already answered that in my last two posts. Also, it's not so much difficult as much as it is an unnecessary hassle.

4 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

DE said that a centaur frame has nothing to do with a discussion on what shapes are possible in frames because of what, exactly?

I answered that in the very line you just quoted.

Are you even trying to listen at this point? Because I'd rather not waste my time going in circles here.

[Mak_Gohae]

7 minutes ago, Roachester said:

Except it does, unless you want this thing to look like a poorly animated nightmare.

I already answered that in my last two posts. Also, it's not so much difficult as much as it is an unnecessary hassle.

I answered that in the very line you just quoted.

Are you even trying to listen at this point? Because I'd rather not waste my time going in circles here.

1- there's no mass to account for in a video game, dude.

2- no you have not. You discuss things that dont apply to video games for some reason.

3- the discussion in Tennocon wasnt about "centaur powers" , whatever that is, it was about the look and how they can accomplish this.

[Roachester]

6 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

1- there's no mass to account for in a video game, dude.

2- no you have not. You discuss things that dont apply to video games for some reason.

3- the discussion in Tennocon wasnt about "centaur powers" , whatever that is, it was about the look and how they can accomplish this.

1) You don't play many games, do you?

2) Your inability to see the relevance of anything I've said so far doesn't mean I haven't already explained it.

3) "For all we care, it could just look like an average Warframe with centaur-themed powers." 

[zehne]

All the arguments I see for 'fat frame' seem to coincide with the notion that it's possible because warframes are warframes, or because the game is fantasy.

What those people fail to see is the game isn't fantasy, it's science fiction.  The key thing to note about science fiction vs. fantasy is that science fiction takes into account realism and more or less adheres to universal laws (farther out science fiction borders on fantasy if only for the reason that it's fringe science and we currently have 'no knowledge' on the subject matters, so 'speculations' about it are pure fantasy).

Then there are people who say that there is no reason why warframes have to be humanoid.  Again I point at science fiction and then I point at nearly every other work of science fiction.  The founding theme beneath them all is that it is easier and more efficient to control 'vessels' which are familiar in shape and form to your own.

Then there are those who make arguments against why different proportions can still achieve X or Y because they are mechanically, technologically and 'magically' superior to flesh and blood.  However again I say nay.  As science progress we find more and more that we tend to invent less and borrow more from nature.  The thing is that the limitations of the human body are limitations because of physics and bio-science not because flesh and bone are weak.  We find more and more that the organs and structures of creatures in nature are SCIENTIFICALLY the most efficient/strongest structures known (for their purpose).

Simply put: heavyset warframes would be less than ideal warframes(backed by Science, physics, evolution).  Since warframes in the warframe universe were built to be the most ideal/efficient weapons ever to exist, it stands that a heavyset warframe is very unlikely to ever been developed.  We know what the purpose of fat is, and it doesn't have much play in the realm of combat.

I'll put this the simplest way I can think of. 

The fact is, fat isn't muscle.  It gives an advantage in mass, but the disadvantage is also having more mass.

 

Rhino is muscular, and is probably one of the heaviest frames before additional bulk starts becoming a hindrance instead of an added benefit.

Edited October 27, 2016 by zehne

[Inarticulate]

43 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

You know we are talking about video game, right? None of this has to be applied to space bio-armor.

Go look at Guyver.

It would look wrong to animate a person with an average build, then apply that exact animation to a model of a bulky person. You'd get a lot of unsightly clipping.

44 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Go ahead and enlighten us on how difficult is it to animate a bulkier frame.

Essentially, redoing every single animation that involves movement of the arms and legs at the minimum.

26 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

1- there's no mass to account for in a video game, dude.

You have no experience in animation, do you?

To make an animation believable, you need to make it move how the actual object moves in real life (or how you expect the actual object to move in real life), and the actual bulky person in real life needs to account for a different distribution of mass when break dancing. As such, you need to account for the same thing when animating.

28 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

2- no you have not. You discuss things that dont apply to video games for some reason.

Because the art of animation is literally taking things that aren't in your video game and putting them in your video game.

 

7 minutes ago, zehne said:

We find more and more that the organs and structures of creatures in nature are SCIENTIFICALLY the most efficient/strongest structures known (for their purpose).

I agree with everything in your post except this line, but I'm not going to spend time arguing because it's not important. +1 regardless because the rest of the post was solid.

[Khaine62]

8 minutes ago, zehne said:

All the arguments I see for 'fat frame' seem to coincide with the notion that it's possible because warframes are warframes, or because the game is fantasy.

What those people fail to see is the game isn't fantasy, it's science fiction.  The key thing to note about science fiction vs. fantasy is that science fiction takes into account realism and more or less adheres to universal laws (farther out science fiction borders on fantasy if only for the reason that it's fringe science and we currently have 'no knowledge' on the subject matters, so 'speculations' about it are pure fantasy).

Then there are people who say that there is no reason why warframes have to be humanoid.  Again I point at science fiction and then I point at nearly every other work of science fiction.  The founding theme beneath them all is that it is easier and more efficient to control 'vessels' which are familiar in shape and form to your own.

Then there are those who make arguments against why different proportions can still achieve X or Y because they are mechanically, technologically and 'magically' superior to flesh and blood.  However again I say nay.  As science progress we find more and more that we tend to invent less and borrow more from nature.  The thing is that the limitations of the human body are limitations because of physics and bio-science not because flesh and bone are weak.  We find more and more that the organs and structures of creatures in nature are SCIENTIFICALLY the most efficient/strongest structures known (for their purpose).

Simply put: heavyset warframes would be less than ideal warframes(backed by Science, physics, evolution).  Since warframes in the warframe universe were built to be the most ideal/efficient weapons ever to exist, it stands that a heavyset warframe is very unlikely to ever been developed.  We know what the purpose of fat is, and it doesn't have much play in the realm of combat.

I'll put this the simplest way I can think of. 

The fact is, fat isn't muscle.  It gives an advantage in mass, but the disadvantage is also having more mass.

 

Rhino is muscular, and is probably one of the heaviest frames before additional bulk starts becoming a hindrance instead of an added benefit.

^This. Just this. This is exactly what people need to consider. Also, people say they want a 'heavyset' frame but it sounds more like they just want a fat frame, which doesn't make sense for Warframe on a number of levels. 

[Mak_Gohae]

29 minutes ago, Roachester said:

1) You don't play many games, do you?

2) Your inability to see the relevance of anything I've said so far doesn't mean I haven't already explained it.

3) "For all we care, it could just look like an average Warframe with centaur-themed powers." 

1- Yes, i do. And that doesnt change that real life mass has nothing to do with a video game.

2- You answers make no sense. You are using examples that has no connection at all with the game.

3- Go look at tennocon. They are discussing the possibility of doing something with four legs. if it's too much i can link it. Do you want this? Cause it appears like you are not looking for the info for unknown reasons.

 

12 minutes ago, Khaine62 said:

heavyset warframes would be less than ideal warframes(backed by Science, physics, evolution). 

Why do people keep bringing real life stuff to a video game where the lore has not explained anything about the mechanics of a warframe?

If this was Star Trek and we were discussing warp drives or teleportation then we this would make sense, but this is Warframe. Outside of the building materials there's no knowledge on how they work.  There is no science, physics, or evolution. 

Since warframes in the warframe universe were built to be the most ideal/efficient weapons ever to exist,

Oh yes, Mr. Peanut Limbo is a very ideal and efficient weapon of combat. Two of the 3 Equinox forms with all those rags hanging around looks very helpful. Im sure that the lobster skirt on trinity is very ideal.

[Roachester]

6 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

1- Yes, i do. And that doesnt change that real life mass has nothing to do with a video game.

2- You answers make no sense. You are using examples that has no connection at all with the game.

3- Go look at tennocon. They are discussing the possibility of doing something with four legs. if it's too much i can link it. Do you want this? Cause it appears like you are not looking for the info for unknown reasons.

1) If you do, then you should understand just as well as any of us why proper physics are important in any half-decent video game.

2) Your inability to see the relevance of anything I've said so far doesn't mean I haven't explained it already. Again.

3) 

1 hour ago, Roachester said:

And unless they showed off what that centaur frame might look like...

Strange you would claim I'm not looking for info when I implied the exact opposite. Selective reading is bad for you, you know.

If you've got the link, then post it to your heart's content. Otherwise I think we're done here, because this is effectively going nowhere.

[Khaine62]

5 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

1- Yes, i do. And that doesnt change that real life mass has nothing to do with a video game.

2- You answers make no sense. You are using examples that has no connection at all with the game.

3- Go look at tennocon. They are discussing the possibility of doing something with four legs. if it's too much i can link it. Do you want this? Cause it appears like you are not looking for the info for unknown reasons.

 

Why do people keep bringing real life stuff to a video game where the lore has not explained anything about the mechanics of a warframe?

If this was Star Trek and we were discussing warp drives or teleportation then we this would make sense, but this is Warframe. Outside of the building materials there's no knowledge on how they work.  There is no science, physics, or evolution. 

 

 

Oh yes, Mr. Peanut Limbo is a very ideal and efficient weapon of combat. Two of the 3 Equinox forms with all those rags hanging around looks very helpful. Im sure that the lobster skirt on trinity is very ideal.

You're entire argument basically boils down to: "It's all make believe so anything should be possible. There should be not standards, even ones we see in the game itself."

You're justifying on why this should happen at the complete expense at everything else in the game. Despite the numerous technical and thematic issues that would go into it.

But then again, this is where the last thread went and ended.

Mods please close this. It's not going to go anywhere. 

 

 

 

 

[arch111]

Look.

Warframes are bio-mechanical.  That mean:

1) Part Machine

2) Part Living entity

The Orokin used nanobots, Technocyte, to essentially recode and repurpos their crestions - including healing, streangth and channeling Voidpower.

They allso shaped things by Morphics, allowing them to build FORMA (my guess) essential in Orokin construction.

Now. Why do all warframes have the same relative BUILD RATIO? Because they use the same animations that depend on having the same positions and constraints.

Question: can the HULK use Cpt. Amerikas movements? Sure. Would they look the same? Not really. Because they are TOO different.

 

 Lastly.

A big hulking mass of a warframe would be fine IF the animation setup allowed it.

De are just being practical. My Rhino clips himself all the time. Imagine if he was twice that size. 

[arch111]

I tried to make a large female warframe without going too far. I think around here would be ok.

[Mak_Gohae]

1 hour ago, Roachester said:

1) If you do, then you should understand just as well as any of us why proper physics are important in any half-decent video game.

2) Your inability to see the relevance of anything I've said so far doesn't mean I haven't explained it already. Again.

3)

But WF doesnt have proper physics. This why bringing this up makes no sense.

You are creating limits that dont exist in the game. That makes no sense.

1 hour ago, Khaine62 said:

You're entire argument basically boils down to: "It's all make believe so anything should be possible. There should be not standards, even ones we see in the game itself."

 

I've asked several times for you folks to state in-game lore that proves your theories and so far you have not produced anything.

Quote

You're justifying on why this should happen at the complete expense at everything else in the game. Despite the numerous technical and thematic issues that would go into it.

What technical thematic issues would this bring?

Apparently you think there are no themes for chunky folks, why?

 

 

 

[Inarticulate]

8 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

But WF doesnt have proper physics. This why bringing this up makes no sense.

You are creating limits that dont exist in the game. That makes no sense.

It has proper physics.

The animations do their best to try not to clip. Animations of player and non-player characters move in believable ways given their weight distribution and shape. Jumping moves you in a roughly parabolic arc. Arrows arc. Loot rolls down slopes.

[Khaine62]

4 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

But WF doesnt have proper physics. This why bringing this up makes no sense.

You are creating limits that dont exist in the game. That makes no sense.

I've asked several times for you folks to state in-game lore that proves your theories and so far you have not produced anything.

What technical thematic issues would this bring?

Apparently you think there are no themes for chunky folks, why?

 

 

 

After pages and pages of people explaining the situation, you don't still get it? 

A game like Overwatch, League of Legends and/or Dota? They could implement this nobody would bat an eye. Why because those games' themes (drawing characters from all over their respective world/worlds) give them carte blanche to do whatever they want with their character designs. Warframes have a specific theme: space ninja capable of crazy powers, martial arts and crazy acrobatics. The heaviest you're going to see of the warframes is something like Rhino. That's just common sense in terms of athleticism. 

I don't have anything against heavyset or even plain out and out fat characters. In fact, if DE made a boss character like that, it wouldn't bug me at all. A large/plump/chunky Corpus who size reflects his/her wealth and life of luxury? Sure. A Grinner military commander whose overdosed of some crazy steroids and growth hormones? Cool. But a Warframe? Well, to quote a great man: 

"You know, I'm sure there was an advantage to building a fat robot, but for the life of me, I just don't see it."- Vegeta.

 

 

[Tzarl]

its a game about space ninjas. I see absolutely no reason why we can't have a heavier-set, ancient, biotechnological, void-slinging weapons-of-war. Having more body diversity in our warframes makes sense from a design perspective and a representation perspective. Having warframes with different looks and profiles helps distinguish them and make each one feel unique; and it doesn't hurt if in the process DE makes people with larger body types feel more included or represented.

[(XBOX)BroaderSaucer]

20 hours ago, Noamuth said:

Please see Phorid and the two itterations of the Juggernaut.

Phorid is simply an enlarged and recolored Charger and the Juggernaut started about the same size as Phorid and was simply shrunk to it's current size - from what I can see, clipping and animations aren't really any issue due to the size.

thats because everything is proportional there. if you were to create a havier warframe, you would also have to upsize everything else to prevent clipping which would end up looking silly.

[MagPrime]

1 hour ago, arch111 said:

I tried to make a large female warframe without going too far. I think around here would be ok.

Do you have something already in game to place next to her, as a size reference?

[zehne]

1 hour ago, Mak_Gohae said:

I've asked several times for you folks to state in-game lore that proves your theories and so far you have not produced anything.

It has been stated many times; The orokin built them as war-machines, few in number (due to limited operators) and advanced in technology/capability.  (The orokin infantry/mass units are what we see in the void).  That is supported by lore and gameplay.

It's also supported that warframes are biomechanical (thanks Alad).

That being said, we know of the physical limitations of the human body from many perspectives.  And by limitations i'm not talking about flesh/bones.  I'm talking about hard limitations (such as how Surface area to Volume scaling isn't constant, making cooling of larger bodies extremely hard).  For this matter I need simply point to the numerous posts about how scaling of joints simply doesn't work (and I can't help but think about tracheal respiratory system limitations in insects).

Furthermore, if we are to believe that lore-wise the Orokin were in fact the strongest intellectual and technologically advanced race; the warframes that we currently have ALREADY PUSH THE HARD LIMITATIONS THAT EXIST. So to create something that exceeds the hard limitations is...impossible.

A heavyset warframe COULD exist in warframe; no arguments there, the Orokin could do it.  The caveat being that it would be inferior in many ways due to hard limitations.

Either all warframes to this point ARE NOT the most technologically advanced things created (which push technology to the hard limitations of the universe) or a heavyset warframe is simply impossible (if not impossible, impractical, which is nearly the same thing given the goal of creating warframes in the first place).

The idea of heavyset warframe defeats itself.  Either warframes(currently)  aren't the most advanced things created (they don't push hard limitations), or they are and a heavy warframe is inferior (and goes against what the Orokin were trying to accomplish).

[Slaviar]

Because fat frame looks good only in Yuikami's comic:

Spoiler

 

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

On 10/25/2016 at 1:48 PM, Ryddem said:

This again huh? 

 

Why on earth would they add an obese character in a game about space ninjas? 

Because our characters are more like Superman than ninjas anyway.