Hochstepanzerjager Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 It all depends on what you mean by "heavy set". Technically, we already have 2, depending on your definition of the word. (Rhino and Chroma) Remember, "heavy set" doesn't just necessarily mean someone's fat. I'm 6' tall and weigh 240 lbs. Doctors tell me every time I see one I'm obese and "heavy set", Yet there's not a single ounce of fat on me anywhere. Because they're going by BMI ( body mass index), and BMI doesn't take in account someone that has a larger frame to start with. It also doesn't take in account I was very physical for almost 2 decades ( Served in the Army as a tanker for years, a VERY physically demanding job). So am I bulked compared to the average person? yes, most certainly. But overweight I am not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbybe01234 Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 On 10/31/2016 at 11:36 PM, Mak_Gohae said: On 10/31/2016 at 2:10 PM, Inarticulate said: And while I'm at it, physics aside, the player character having clipping issues and ill-suited animations neither is believable nor can be overlooked. Why would they make something that has clipping and animation issues? This excuse makes no sense at all yet you folks keep using it. Why would they not problem solve all this stuff in the design process? On 10/31/2016 at 11:18 PM, Khaine62 said: The Dom and the Rick-Dom aren't fat. They have heavy armor, which you can't write off as fat. Most mecha with heavy armor looks bulkier. Hek, that's not to say anything of the real world when it comes to armor. Wait, so you think when people say they want a fat frame it's not about the outer appearance but actual fat? Why? Of course, it's just about the outer appearance which mean that those extra outer layers are armor. Interesting opinions here but a couple things: There would absolutely be clipping issues if the added bulk around the waist and thighs were allowed to move. Refer to Equinox or Hydroid to see how moving parts will have clipping issues even when designed specifically for the theme and frame as opposed to accessory pieces. Secondly, when someone says "fat frame" I assume they are talking about a fat frame. You see words in the English language exist for a reason. It's so I know they are talking about something that is [fat]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helch0rn Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 3 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said: Of course, like it's done with most frames. Stuff needs to be adjusted a bit. every frame we have so far is based on the same animation rig. and we have frames that are already pushing the boundaries of what is possible with this rig. Saryn for example is "terminally thick". if you use the meditate emote her legs are already getting stretched like hell just look how messed up it looks at the hip Spoiler http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/190668701390853894/86E14457F606DB3F85BB7DCE441515FC96B1C6F0/ making a frame with bigger thighs will only increase this problem, unless you create a whole new rig and every animation for this rig from scratch 3 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said: What 2 movement sets? You mean the idle animations? The only thing that they have differently is the running animations. I think. Never really payed attention, and im probably confused because the running animation looks different at different speeds with all the crap on, on different frames. There's really no info that states that a fat frame requires a complete and total bottom to the top building. each set of animations has custom idles, custom walk animations (armed and unarmed) and very often custom idles for specific weapon types (mag floats throwing knives in her hand, wukong balances on staff weapons for example) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mak_Gohae Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 5 hours ago, Inarticulate said: No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that it's likely not worth the resources to create a complete new set of player animations all for the sake of a single Warframe. Furthermore, those new animations will probably never be reused. The other "funky designs" haven't had the need to completely redo every single animation for the player character. Why would they need to do a unique complete set for a fatter frame. Explain that. Quote Also, the skeleton is the easy part. I'm pretty sure you don't understand how animation works if you're bringing that up. A skeleton has no need to follow the lines of the model; it only needs to have the joints in the right places and connected to the correct other joints. Are they joints part of the skeleton? If yes, what make you think that when im talking abut the skeleton i am not talking about certain points on the skeleton? Quote Enemies have a MUCH smaller set of animations than player characters do. Compare the list of every possible action a player can take (including all of the actions that can be performed in cinematics and in the orbiter and include permutations with currently equipped weapon types, including unarmed) to the list of every possible action an enemy can take. sure, but it's a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarticulate Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 Just now, Mak_Gohae said: Why would they need to do a unique complete set for a fatter frame. Explain that. Using the existing animations is guaranteed to cause clipping issues. How many times do I have to say this? 2 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said: Are they joints part of the skeleton? If yes, what make you think that when im talking abut the skeleton i am not talking about certain points on the skeleton? It looks like you either have the memory of a goldfish or have trouble putting one and one together so I'll spell this out for you as completely and as simply as I can. You said the skeleton doesn't have to fit the model of the Warframe perfectly and used the thinness of Titania's legs as an example. This means you are associating the thickness of the model between joints as a feature of the skeleton, which is not the case. A skeleton is simply the joints and straight, zero-thickness lines between the joints. There is nothing related to the thinness of Titania's legs that would have any relevance to the skeleton. Bringing up the skeleton at all indicates that you don't understand how 3D animation works. A fat Warframe would have almost the same skeleton as a skinny Warframe. After all, a fat person has the same skeletal proportions as a skinny person, and therefore the same relative positions for their joints. The difference is that the animations need to be different to prevent the model itself from clipping. 11 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said: sure, but it's a start. Your development bandwidth is a manual well pump. The number of animations required of an enemy is a bathtub. The number of animations required of a player character is an Olympic swimming pool. This is probably not even an exaggeration. Let me know when you're done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)KoS Horizon Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 I'd say the fact that rhino is covered in ferrite makes him pretty "Heavy Set". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mak_Gohae Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 On 11/2/2016 at 11:04 AM, robbybe01234 said: Interesting opinions here but a couple things: There would absolutely be clipping issues if the added bulk around the waist and thighs were allowed to move. Refer to Equinox or Hydroid to see how moving parts will have clipping issues even when designed specifically for the theme and frame as opposed to accessory pieces. what clipping issues? I am using pirate frame now and he doent seem to have a crazy amount of issues. And i did not even know Equinox has issues like this. You mean all the floaty bits? Quote Secondly, when someone says "fat frame" I assume they are talking about a fat frame. You see words in the English language exist for a reason. It's so I know they are talking about something that is [fat]. I posted a pic of a frame mech and the person replied that the mech wasnt fat it just had a lot of armor. Leading me to believe that when some one said fat here people didnt think it was the design, the look, and they thought the frame was actually going to be filled with fat for some reason. The thread of about body types in frames, not that the frames are made from. 20 hours ago, Helch0rn said: every frame we have so far is based on the same animation rig. and we have frames that are already pushing the boundaries of what is possible with this rig. Saryn for example is "terminally thick". if you use the meditate emote her legs are already getting stretched like hell just look how messed up it looks at the hip Hide contents http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/190668701390853894/86E14457F606DB3F85BB7DCE441515FC96B1C6F0/ making a frame with bigger thighs will only increase this problem, unless you create a whole new rig and every animation for this rig from scratch each set of animations has custom idles, custom walk animations (armed and unarmed) and very often custom idles for specific weapon types (mag floats throwing knives in her hand, wukong balances on staff weapons for example) All models have stretch issues. All. And whats the problem in that pic? The only funky thing i see is the thigh on the right leg looking funky because probably how the model moves. All frames have custom idles and so on, why does a fat frame all of a sudden become a issue for it to have the same thing all other frames have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuestenjung Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 On 25.10.2016 at 7:46 PM, Skaleek said: Because being fat hinders your ability to parkour and efficiently move in battle. When you design a weapon you don't design it with deficiencies on purpose. I call b**ls**t on this one. I bet there are more then enough "fat" people that are fitter then you and me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvid Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 30 minutes ago, Kuestenjung said: I call b**ls**t on this one. I bet there are more then enough "fat" people that are fitter then you and me. But you can't provide examples because... reasons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damuranashi Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 They should add a fat frame, and after that a wheelchair frame and an armless frame, because diversity matters. By the way On 1/11/2016 at 4:10 PM, Mak_Gohae said: In fact, remember the fat dudes from the first War Within Trailer? They ALREADY created fat enemies. So use that work and implement it on the fat frames. There's really no excuse. Those are enemies, they use less animations. Unlike warframes they do not wear sets of armor, syandanas, change weapons or do emotes, they will probably just run and attack. So yes, they have an "excuse". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helch0rn Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 30 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said: All models have stretch issues. All. And whats the problem in that pic? The only funky thing i see is the thigh on the right leg looking funky because probably how the model moves. The pic was meant to illustrate the stretch issues big thighs have for comparision I tested it with a few frames that have "thin thighs" (Titania, Valkyr, Wukong, Zephyr) and with a few that have "fat thighs" (Saryn, Rhino, Loki Prime) frames with "thin thighs" usually have noticeably less stretch issues than frames with "fat thighs" (granted there are a few exceptions like banshee) if you increase the size of the thighs to the level that they would rub against each other when walking these stretching issues get worse, and this and this is why a new rig would be needed. 1 hour ago, Mak_Gohae said: All frames have custom idles and so on, why does a fat frame all of a sudden become a issue for it to have the same thing all other frames have? the issue is not with the custom idle of the frame,because every frame gets custom idles, but with all the work that would have to be done to make all the other animation sets available on the frame because there will be a portion of the players that would be angry if they could not equip their favourite animation set on every frame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skaleek Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Kuestenjung said: I call b**ls**t on this one. I bet there are more then enough "fat" people that are fitter then you and me. Its not a person, Its a warframe. Its basically like a machine. Why would you add bulk to a machine and slow it down. As an engineer the only reason i could see that bulk having any use is for a heatsink, and I dont think thats what's going on here. If i said we're going to have a race, and i gave you 2 options; a Horse with a saddle, or a horse pulling a buggy lined with lead weights, what would you choose? It's about efficient design it has nothing to do with whether there are fat humans that are "more fit" than you or me. Edited November 3, 2016 by Skaleek Me fail english? Thats unpossible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arch111 Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 1 hour ago, Skaleek said: Its not a person, Its a warframe. Its basically like a machine. Why would you add bulk to a machine and slow it down. As an engineer the only reason i could see that bulk having any use is for a heatsink, and I dont think thats what's going on here. If i said we're going to have a race, and i gave you 2 options; a Horse with a saddle, or a horse pulling a buggy lined with lead weights, what would you choose? It's about efficient design it has nothing to do with whether there are fat humans that are "more fit" than you or me. Ok i have to jump in here. To the defence of a large bulk of a warframe, they are in fact living machines. The term is biotech, and a warframe bleeds, gets radiated, poisoned, burned, frozen and can heal from that. So a big warframe would be made of machineparts; reactor, sheilds and other devices, but allso of muscle, a nervoussystem and a neural-net akin to a brain. You are comparing the Hulk to Iron Man, but we use those combined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skaleek Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 (edited) 7 minutes ago, arch111 said: Ok i have to jump in here. To the defence of a large bulk of a warframe, they are in fact living machines. The term is biotech, and a warframe bleeds, gets radiated, poisoned, burned, frozen and can heal from that. So a big warframe would be made of machineparts; reactor, sheilds and other devices, but allso of muscle, a nervoussystem and a neural-net akin to a brain. You are comparing the Hulk to Iron Man, but we use those combined. Thats nice but what does it have to do with being fat? Why would we want our "biotech" to be fat, and why did you have to step in to correct me saying "basically like a machine" to the your word "Biotech"? The bottom line is i just dont see the reason we would ever have a fat warframe. Warframes ARE weapons designed by people, and these engineers, much like most people in this thread, have deemed fat warframes as either non-viable, inefficient, or just less effective. Which honestly, is the expected outcome. Go pitch a fat suit of armor to the military. Not heavy, fat. Edited November 3, 2016 by Skaleek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arch111 Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Skaleek said: Thats nice but what does it have to do with being fat? Why would we want our "biotech" to be fat, and why did you have to step in to correct me saying "basically like a machine" to the your word "Biotech"? Ah, Because I fail to see a hindrance to the size of a biotech-entity in human-terms. Most of this thread have been about warframes from human eyes, as in an obese or anorectic human must allso be true to the warframes. But that is not the case. Should Nekros hold much less energy than Hydroid, heal slower, run slower, be able to carry less and so on? Sure, some issues of Gravity make Rhino have a slower rush-speed. But that can be modded. I would imagine Ballas created a really big warframe for a purpose. To use that mass and weight with voidenergy to crush, throw and tolerate massive damage to it´s bulk; the definition of a Tank. Slow and nearly unstoppable. Edited November 3, 2016 by arch111 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skaleek Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 (edited) 11 minutes ago, arch111 said: Ah, Because I fail to see a hindrance to the size of a biotech-entity in human-terms. Most of this thread have been about warframes from human eyes, as in an obese or anorectic human must allso be true to the warframes. But that is not the case. Should Nekros hold much less energy than Hydroid, heal slower, run slower, be able to carry less and so on? Sure, some issues of Gravity make Rhino have a slower rush-speed. But that can be modded. I would imagine Ballas created a really big warframe for a purpose. To use that mass and wight with voidenergy to crush, throw and tolerate massive damage to it´s bulk; the definition of a Tank. Slow and nearly unstoppable. Muscle has more weight than fat, so once again, I ask, why a fat warframe? If you want a tank warframe you would want the most dense material you could equip. Fat is not dense. It's fluffy. It's not useful in any sort of combat situation unless you are looking to cushion a fall, which can also be accomplished by so many other methods that wont slow you down. Because fat slows you down. Yeah, it does. Fat is insulation and fuel. Warframes have access to both in the form of Mods and Energy. They dont need fat. There's no use for it. Edited November 3, 2016 by Skaleek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arch111 Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 1 hour ago, Skaleek said: Muscle has more weight than fat, so once again, I ask, why a fat warframe? If you want a tank warframe you would want the most dense material you could equip. Fat is not dense. It's fluffy. It's not useful in any sort of combat situation unless you are looking to cushion a fall, which can also be accomplished by so many other methods that wont slow you down. Because fat slows you down. Yeah, it does. Fat is insulation and fuel. Warframes have access to both in the form of Mods and Energy. They dont need fat. There's no use for it. AH now I see. You are actually talking about a warframe that behaves as though it had soft fat on the outside. That would never work. I am talking about the visual style and bulk. Imagine that Excalibur is "fat". The warframe itself is still dense, still hard and compact, armored and constructed to perform.a series of actions of death and destruction. I see now we are having two discussions. And I fully object to any type of biological humanoid actually being fat, it makes no sense for a warframe. If it looks like a sumo, that's another matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UrielColtan Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Fat acceptance, pfft. Unhealthy acceptance more like. Accepting people =/= needing to accept fatness itself. Obesity is an aspect of an unhealthy body and thus less attractive outside of humorous/ironic situations, if not representative of more over indulgent decadence or less active and subsequently less functional stock. Our species is naturally attracted to more active, healthy and symmetrical bodies, for better potential procreation and strength of off spring, we are also atteacted to the concept of not dying, thus the obvious displeasure toward life endangering obesity. You can have fat fetishes but you can't change the general biological coding of the entire species at the end of the day. Not that I would mind an obese frame, I think it would be funny, but that's going with what I said about this being the dominant attractive proposition for that, and decisions shouldn't be made to accommodate tumblr checklists anyway. Some like to trot out oppression, but its not the less priviledged third world countries that are really suffering from over weight and diabetes pandemics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arch111 Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 This topic ... Do anyone identify with the warframes? Do anyone feel like a Nova or Nyx or Nekros is a reflection of their human form in real life? Why is the debate about unhealthy humans and the "acceptance" of morbid obecity? Because I am sure not one of us accepts that as OK. Let's just erase most of the anime out there since they promote unhealthy ideals. Let's take out super heroes too, that just promote us to work out and take steroids since ordinary humans can't look like that. -_- I was around when the hysteria if Goths, metal and role playing was on - I had to defend myself at every turn. Because it was said I would become something else from exposure. Will we suddenly gain 20 kilos if there are fat people in videogames? Where did that come from? Is there a statistic I can read? .. lets just kill this thread ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaine62 Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 7 hours ago, arch111 said: This topic ... Do anyone identify with the warframes? Do anyone feel like a Nova or Nyx or Nekros is a reflection of their human form in real life? Why is the debate about unhealthy humans and the "acceptance" of morbid obecity? Because I am sure not one of us accepts that as OK. Let's just erase most of the anime out there since they promote unhealthy ideals. Let's take out super heroes too, that just promote us to work out and take steroids since ordinary humans can't look like that. -_- I was around when the hysteria if Goths, metal and role playing was on - I had to defend myself at every turn. Because it was said I would become something else from exposure. Will we suddenly gain 20 kilos if there are fat people in videogames? Where did that come from? Is there a statistic I can read? .. lets just kill this thread ok? The last time this topic came up (like back in May) this eventually happened. The thread went off the rails and was closed. That was why I was calling for it to be closed before we started getting into a whole new can of worms. The thread has gone its' course. Time to end it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arch111 Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 I actually remembered this old thing. I think I will dig it out and develop it further. Calling it Lionframe for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extroah Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 (edited) Muricans and their needs for having the biggest fattest weapons. </badjoke> Bad jokes aside, i dont think this would be any good, no matter what kind of theory you believe in. If warframes are mindless shells that get operated by the operator, it would probably make it harder for the operator to move. If they are self conscious and just get orders by the operator they would be less agile and slow. If they are weapons, they would be harder to efficiently use, etc. you get the point. The only thing where i could see this happening would be with a pure defense warframe that doesnt need mobility. Edited November 10, 2016 by Extroah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arch111 Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 12 minutes ago, Extroah said: Muricans and their needs for having the biggest fattest weapons. </badjoke> Bad jokes aside, i dont think this would be any good, no matter what kind of theory you believe in. If warframes are mindless shells that get operator by the operator, it would probably make it harder for the operator to move. If they are self conscious and just get orders by the operator they would be less agile and slow. If they are weapons, they would be harder to efficiently use, etc. you get the point. The only thing where i could see this happening would be with a pure defense warframe that doesnt need mobility. Space magic faery dust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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